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Opinion Halo Infinite: The Problem Was Never XBO, It Was 343i. Let Me Explain.

What do YOU think has been the biggest hindrance to 343i getting Halo Infinite into polished state?

  • Xbox One cross-gen support

    Votes: 23 11.1%
  • Lack of 343i programmer/artist/creative talent/synergy

    Votes: 39 18.8%
  • Lack of 343i upper management talent/synergy

    Votes: 76 36.7%
  • COVID-19 (and work-from-home)

    Votes: 5 2.4%
  • (By Popular Demand) All of the above

    Votes: 64 30.9%

  • Total voters
    207
  • Poll closed .

Lone Wolf

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Jan 8, 2014
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343 is trash. Bonnie Ross, Frank O’Conner and Kiki Wolfkill are trash. This falls on the leadership, which means Phil is just as responsible. Halo, my favorite franchise, has been ruined by Microsoft. Halo, the reason I stuck with Xbox. Good job destroying your most valuable IP. why isn’t anyone held responsible? Why hasn’t anyone been fired?
 

Dee Dah Dave

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Nov 24, 2013
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Senior management and diversity hiring takes the number one spot for me. Games are really hard to make and you need the right people for the job. It's all fun virtue signalling and stuff until it costs you billions of dollars and another poor start to a generation.

Last gen support is never going to be ideal but that doesn't mean its not doable. A focused 1st party dev with 5+ years time should be able to pull it off. Drop to 30fps and scale the fuck out of the graphics and that would be most of the battle done. But for me now they would be best releasing next holiday or later and drop the Xbox One. 343 / Microsoft cannot afford for this game to be anything other than great.

Also they should do battle royale even though they said they wont. Halo has literally the perfect sandbox for it and if they nailed it then it could be huge. So yeah, maybe 3 huge maps for battle royale and other game types. And then arena maps for the standard multiplayer.
 
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JerryinSoCal

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If the entire game was already designed with X1 limitations in mind what's the point of dropping it now? What they should do is focus on doing things for the Series X to pretty it up but the game was scheduled to launch this holiday and likely would have if the backlash hadn't been so big.
 

ahmyleg

Neo Member
Sep 12, 2019
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I was hoping for better graphics, but if this was running at 4k/60, then it's kinda understandable b/c even on next-gen hardware you're gonna have to downgrade the graphics in a big way to hit that target. Games designed to run at 1080p30/60 on next-gen would probably look amazing. I think 4k should be the last bastion for resolution.
 
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Ozzie666

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Jun 27, 2020
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I still believe its not really them. I am sure they have skill and talent, maybe even passion, not sure. I think, the engine change, their dreams and vision just didn't align with the Suits at Microsoft's desire for supporting all machines. Their scope and ideas were obviously to high for the poor Jaguars. They were held back by old hardware, even when Microsoft claimed that wouldn't happen. I blame the lack of oversight, possibly. Maybe not Phil himself but whomever outside the studio was tracking the progress of the game.

Maybe the studio lacks the passion for HALO, move them onto something else or new.

But this is sounding more and more like Crack Down 3.
 

93xfan

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Feb 23, 2013
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After 343 fucked up MCC, which didn’t seem hard to make, you gotta wonder.

You have no clue what you’re talking about. That game was rushed and is now largely fixed and still getting a ton of support.

Halo 3 forge is better than ever, 60FPS and dedicated servers makes even Big Team Battle feel good, better control options than before, and a custom games browser coming along. They’re even putting in work to fix glitches that were present in the originals.

i think 343 only did the initial menus in MCC btw, so I cannot give them credit or too much blame in that case.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Oct 13, 2008
21,011
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It's a bit of everything, but this has to be primarily on 343 leadership. People like to trot out that picture of the female staffers at 343, but I don't think it's particularly fair to blame the people who are in the shit every day. The hiring decisions, prioritization, and overall direction are dictated by upper management, and those are the things that lead to the situation.
 
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Varteras

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Dec 5, 2018
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I certainly believe cross-gen development to be a significant contributing factor but 343 is not, and has never been, a worthy studio to take the reins of Microsoft's biggest franchise. They're not the heavy hitter that they've been billed as by some. They inherited a well established franchise that sold many millions and they've failed to maintain its status among the community. As I've said before, 343 has taken one of the biggest franchises in gaming and reduced it to a meme. That entire studio needs to be restructured and the people who've been in charge need to go.
 

Bolivar687

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Jun 13, 2014
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You should've posted the context for this thread:


Let it go, OP. It's a current gen game that took so long to make that one of the higher-ups (I'm not ruling out "Uncle" Phil), forced them to save it for next gen.

I hate to defend Infinite's graphics because it was really gross when DF did it, but all of the comparisons made in the OP are either linear games or much more constrained than what we saw from Infinite's level design. The Gotham Knights reveal also had serious framerate issues. No, studios are not knocking it out of the park on their visuals with cross-gen games, and neither will any of Microsoft's first party titles for the first two years.

Sorry 🤷‍♂️
 

Hydroxy

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May 1, 2020
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I agree problem is probably with 343 and upper management,not with Xbox One. Everyone praises Halo 4 for its graphics on Xbox 360 and Xbox One is 10 times more powerful than 360 so Halo Infinite should not have much problem running on Xbox One. Granted I am no developer but surely Xbox One being 10 times more powerful should atleast allow Halo Infinite to run decently. Let me remind you for comparison sake that Metal Gear Solid V ran quite well on 360 and PS3 and it was considered quite an achievement so I am not willing to agree with the logic of Xbox One holding back Halo Infinite.
 
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Rikkori

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mcz117chief

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343 is trash. Bonnie Ross, Frank O’Conner and Kiki Wolfkill are trash. This falls on the leadership, which means Phil is just as responsible. Halo, my favorite franchise, has been ruined by Microsoft. Halo, the reason I stuck with Xbox. Good job destroying your most valuable IP. why isn’t anyone held responsible? Why hasn’t anyone been fired?
Same with Star Wars. It baffles me how the behavior of the people responsible for the failures of these franchises is tolerated.
 

cireza

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Jun 1, 2014
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I hope they won't drop the XBO version. It is only a rumour, nothing was confirmed, they don't have anything to win doing this, especially so close to the end of the development.

Ignoring a 50 millions machines install base is completely stupid, especially with their strategy of selling games and services.

They can release the game on XBO, and only make improvements and major visual updates on SeX in the following years.
 
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GymWolf

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Everyone and their mother knows that 343 are the problem, and my mother doesn't even play videogames...

Also all the screens you posted are under the sun light, not really a fair example compared to the overshadowed halo infinite screens.
 
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Jack Peterson

Banned
Jun 14, 2020
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They should've just made the Xbox One versions 30fps and the Series versions 60fps. It would've made their lives a lot easier...
 

Ichabod

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343i has shown (over how many games now) they don't have what it takes to return the Halo franchise to its former glories. They should have been sidelined ages ago.
 
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I hate that someone oversaturated the colours when taking the screengrab from the video, thats not what it looks like. Its got a way better palette in reality. It could be the compression shifting the colours but I don't think it would be that "bad".

Not your fault OP but I wanted to point it out because I fucking hate this practice. I'm not a literal toddler lol I don't need insanely saturated colours to grab my attention. For reference the video my 2 year old nephew was watching at mine the other day:

Whoever made the made the colors oversaturation so that Switch owners take notice.
 

Sony

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Jun 15, 2016
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Graphics was never really the issue with 343i. Halo 4 looked pretty good on base Xbox 360 and in Halo 5 doesn't look bad either. On the contrary, Halo 5 on the Xbox One X looks quite good.
If the target is to create a 60 FPS (semi) open world game on base Xbox One, then you'll get what we got.
Halo: Infinite in its current form looked like a X Enhanced base Xbox One game.
 

JonnyMP3

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They lost Leaders in this game?
Well that's never going to be good if the main game designer leaves and doesn't get replaced by somebody equally as talented... Same thing with Anthem. No wonder this game is a mess.
 

MastaKiiLA

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Isn't Halo still the closest thing to an XSX-first game we've seen thus far? Other games shown that have been in more complete states of completion have PC as the primary platform. I'm not convinced 343i is doing a poor job, based on the "something is better than nothing" argument. Other XSX-first titles were either straight CG, or non-existent. I don't see anyone roasting T10 or Ninja Theory for not having even ugly demos available for show.

IMO, Xbox marketing team should have read the room a bit better, and realized the game wasn't ready for primetime or launch, before throwing all their eggs in a premature teaser campaign and promise of gameplay. They kinda sent Halo Infinite to die with their campaign. Instead of scuttling the reveal, they decided to forge ahead with an undercooked cake, and then pretended that it was gourmet. I don't think 343i set a deadline they knew they couldn't meet. Whoever did that is the person to blame, instead of the blanket assault on the company's reputation.
 

Data Ghost

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As sad as I am to admit it, an incredible Halo Infinite could have been the difference between an amazing kick start for Xbox Series X, or just more of the same (as in what we have seen this gen between PS4 and Xbox One).

This alone could be something that Xbox never recover from and set them waaay back. If I am completely honest with myself I am not confident that 343 can turn this around, and if they can its going to be a long time before we finally play this game.

Edit: I should also add that there shouldn't be this much reliance on just one game, and this in itself has been my biggest problem with Xbox since the 360 glory days. If PlayStation had one of their big IP's fail, get delayed, or whatever they still have plenty more to rely on.
 
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V4skunk

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Current gen is the issue.
You can see all the pop in of assets in the Halo trailer.
 
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You don't if any of these other next gen games are showing real gameplay or just targer renders like Watch Dogs and Witcher 3 did back in the day. When they launched and didn't look like that people claimed DOWNGRADE. But it wasn't really, it's just gameplay assets that are assembled into a gameplay video, but not rendered in engine.

Until you see journalists record their own gameplay you don't know if any of this is real. You're supposed to see flaws in prerelease games especially on unreleased hardware. Halo demo had them. It's going to look at least that good at launch (better in fact).

By this notion though we can say Halo Infinite wasn't gameplay, either. Journalists haven't played the game, haven't recorded their own footage...for all we know it could be fake too!

I usually give stuff the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That's why I assume the Kena footage has been gameplay, same for other games that have shown us gameplay on next-gen like Bright Memory Infinite (technically that was on a PC in hindsight but still...next-gen PC then), GT7, R&C, DiRT 5, Gunk, etc. If those devs are lying and the actual game looks or plays nothing as they've shown so far, then they'll get their karma. It's that simple.

343i HAS TO GO... SHUT THEM THE FUCK DOWN! let The Initiative or Coalition handle Halo, they literally can't do a worse job than what 343i did the last decade of trying to make their first good Halo game.

Dunno if 343i as a whole should be shut down...maybe downsized, sure. Maybe even broken up into smaller teams. But they still have some talented artists, programmers etc. there worth keeping around. At the very worst, IF they had to shut 343i down, at least get that talent onto other 1st-party teams that could use even more.
one big thing you might be missing (didnt read all your post but the games you compared to) is that infinite has to be 60fps... thats an enormous factor and something none of the games you mentioned target, some cant even hold 30

we have never had a open world game at 60fos this gen, this is the cost

Maybe that just shows it wasn't worth pursuing in all honesty. Ambition means a lot, but if the tech simply can't deliver it in a satisfactory way, best to hold off until it can. I think 343i were simply too ambitious with HI on XBO given what they wanted to do (open-world, 60 FPS). Even games like RDR2 are 30 FPS because current-gen systems just can't handle open-world games with any impressive visuals (on technical level) greater than that framerate.

343i should've known better; open-world 60 FPS Halo should've been their next game after Halo Infinite, for hardware more than capable of handling that type of ambition at that level of scale. They took their shot too early and now we're here :S

As sad as I am to admit it, an incredible Halo Infinite could have been the difference between an amazing kick start for Xbox Series X, or just more of the same (as in what we have seen this gen between PS4 and Xbox One).

This alone could be something that Xbox never recover from and set them waaay back. If I am completely honest with myself I am not confident that 343 can turn this around, and if they can its going to be a long time before we finally play this game.

Edit: I should also add that there shouldn't be this much reliance on just one game, and this in itself has been my biggest problem with Xbox since the 360 glory days. If PlayStation had one of their big IP's fail, get delayed, or whatever they still have plenty more to rely on.

Similarly concerned with Series X's launch momentum now that HI's been delayed. It's not that they don't have any good games coming at launch; they have plenty. The issue tho is many of them will also be on PS5 and among those that aren't, I can't think of any which will be as presence-commanding as Halo Infinite would've been at launch. I think this is also where their cancelled XBO games (Scalebound, Phantom Dust remake/reboot) hurts them, too, because those cancellations created lags in their 1st-party pipeline which rippled across the other teams that were already present before MS went on a spending spree for new stuido acquisitions.

This is why I think they NEED to put something together in terms of nabbing a major 3rd-party as a timed exclusive at launch. Pickings are slim though, and a game that'd seem perfectly suited to it (Cyberpunk), its team have already said they won't put their game on Gamepass at Day 1. Which could be what's causing some other complications for MS here: whether they can get a game like Cyberpunk as a timed exclusive (Series X/PC) shouldn't hinge on if they can get it Day 1 on Gamepass. Simply having it as a timed exclusive in general would naturally get more people to the platform and therefore more people checking out Gamepass and potentially subscribing.

Their obsession with trying to get everything Day 1 on Gamepass that isn't 1st-party is going to potentially screw them over on major games they'd otherwise be able to easily get as timed exclusives to their platform/ecosystem.
 
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quest

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By this notion though we can say Halo Infinite wasn't gameplay, either. Journalists haven't played the game, haven't recorded their own footage...for all we know it could be fake too!

I usually give stuff the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That's why I assume the Kena footage has been gameplay, same for other games that have shown us gameplay on next-gen like Bright Memory Infinite (technically that was on a PC in hindsight but still...next-gen PC then), GT7, R&C, DiRT 5, Gunk, etc. If those devs are lying and the actual game looks or plays nothing as they've shown so far, then they'll get their karma. It's that simple.



Dunno if 343i as a whole should be shut down...maybe downsized, sure. Maybe even broken up into smaller teams. But they still have some talented artists, programmers etc. there worth keeping around. At the very worst, IF they had to shut 343i down, at least get that talent onto other 1st-party teams that could use even more.


Maybe that just shows it wasn't worth pursuing in all honesty. Ambition means a lot, but if the tech simply can't deliver it in a satisfactory way, best to hold off until it can. I think 343i were simply too ambitious with HI on XBO given what they wanted to do (open-world, 60 FPS). Even games like RDR2 are 30 FPS because current-gen systems just can't handle open-world games with any impressive visuals (on technical level) greater than that framerate.

343i should've known better; open-world 60 FPS Halo should've been their next game after Halo Infinite, for hardware more than capable of handling that type of ambition at that level of scale. They took their shot too early and now we're here :S



Similarly concerned with Series X's launch momentum now that HI's been delayed. It's not that they don't have any good games coming at launch; they have plenty. The issue tho is many of them will also be on PS5 and among those that aren't, I can't think of any which will be as presence-commanding as Halo Infinite would've been at launch. I think this is also where their cancelled XBO games (Scalebound, Phantom Dust remake/reboot) hurts them, too, because those cancellations created lags in their 1st-party pipeline which rippled across the other teams that were already present before MS went on a spending spree for new stuido acquisitions.

This is why I think they NEED to put something together in terms of nabbing a major 3rd-party as a timed exclusive at launch. Pickings are slim though, and a game that'd seem perfectly suited to it (Cyberpunk), its team have already said they won't put their game on Gamepass at Day 1. Which could be what's causing some other complications for MS here: whether they can get a game like Cyberpunk as a timed exclusive (Series X/PC) shouldn't hinge on if they can get it Day 1 on Gamepass. Simply having it as a timed exclusive in general would naturally get more people to the platform and therefore more people checking out Gamepass and potentially subscribing.

Their obsession with trying to get everything Day 1 on Gamepass that isn't 1st-party is going to potentially screw them over on major games they'd otherwise be able to easily get as timed exclusives to their platform/ecosystem.

The money is going into studios right now not big timed exclusives. That was the mistake years ago they are still paying for. It sucks but better to starve now and use that money for a few more studios than 1 timed exclusive. With jim "money hat" Ryan offering up 750 million dollars for big games Microsoft would have to pony up a billion with out out gamepass rights lol. That is 4 insomniac deals for 1 game. That probably would be 2 years of budget not like phil has the blank check his deals are small build them up outside playground and obsidian.

343 just needs new management and a new game to work on. Bring in a strong veteran to turn that studio around. Give them full autonomy to get the job done and do any game they desire. I'm sure there is plenty of talented people thier just stuck with bad management.
 
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Dane

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Anyone thinking that the XBO is holding back then should think that the Xbox One/PS4 ports of MGS V and Rise of Tomb Raider are trash because their last gen ports are also impressive and close. Last gen ports are almost always outsourced and trash even for the consoles standards
 
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shenmue mugen

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The problems in Halo Infinite were overblown here. Yes, there is pop in and streaming issues but the textures are good for a native 4k60 game.
 
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GymWolf

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Same with Star Wars. It baffles me how the behavior of the people responsible for the failures of these franchises is tolerated.
They still make a shitton of money with star wars so disney doesn't give a fuck about fans.
 

trufflepigg

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343i has never been able to make a good Halo game, their games are average, incredibly average. I wouldn't even call them AAA, they are just awful at making video games, end of story.
If MS wasn't so tone deaf, they would immediately put out an announcemnt saying Halo is in trouble, and 343i hasn't lived up to what the fans deserve with this beloved franchise, they would announce that 343i is being dismantled and reorganized into a new studio and Halo Infinite is cancelled, and a new Halo game will launch in 2022.

That's the move they should make, because I GUARANTEE Halo Infinite will not be a good Halo game, if we gave 343i 5 more years, it will still be a huge disappointment because this team is completely incapable of making a AAA game.

Halo Infinite is a sunk cost, that's all there is to it. I'll keep saying it, this game is going to SUCK big time. The entire thing should be scrapped.
 

mcz117chief

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They still make a shitton of money with star wars so disney doesn't give a fuck about fans.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. The amusement park is a bust, the movies barely broke even or even lost money, the merchandise (where most of the money is) is filling up warehouses or is on clearance for 1c.
 

GymWolf

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I wouldn't be so sure about that. The amusement park is a bust, the movies barely broke even or even lost money, the merchandise (where most of the money is) is filling up warehouses or is on clearance for 1c.
i followed the money they made until tlj and that one was a success if i remember well, same for the baby yoda series.
Was the turd movie that ruined this?
 
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People can argue whether the X1 version held back the game or not, but at this point the best thing to do would be to drop the X1 version for one simple reason. It puts all resources toward improving the XSEX and PC versions, there is so much to fix its hard to find much from the demo that looks finished and that was the game at its best, imagine what the rest of the game looks like.
 

splattered

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So MS may finally be dropping XBO support for Halo Infinite and, honestly, it's for the best. But not for the reason some people keep thinking it is. Folks seem to be thinking the XBO itself was the anchor or "bottleneck" in the pipeline, but let's consider some of these other cross-gen games launching relatively soon that look MUCH better than Halo Infinite despite needing to similarly support soon-to-be legacy hardware:

The Avengers:





Batman: Gotham Knights:









DiRT 5:







Kena:





The Gunk:





These are titles off the top of my head which are cross-gen and not only look better on next-gen hardware than Halo Infinite, but even look better on current-gen hardware than Halo Infinite. This is why I say people blaming XBO for holding the game back are scapegoating; current-gen was never the issue. The painful truth is, 343i themselves are the reason Halo Infinite is in its current state. How do you squander 5 years, $500 million (granted, not all of that for the game itself, a lot is for marketing and also for future content creation I guess), AND need other 1st-party teams to take time away from their games to help you out with yours...and then somehow the idea among gamers is that the console itself was the problem?

No, it's pretty clear other developers, 3rd-party developers at that, who have less budget for their offerings and less resources, are still able to create better-looking and performing games (let alone betas, demos, vertical slices you name it) than 343i has managed with Halo Infinite. Better-looking and performing games both in the sense of their next-gen versions, AND their current-gen offerings. Cancelling the XBO version of HI only wipes maybe a speck or two of egg off 343i's face, because the actual issues run much deeper.

So just how deep? The creative team of programmers, artists, etc? No, I don't think so. 343i's made some visually great Halos on the XBO, particularly 4 and 5. They may not be the best lookers to a lot of people, but they definitely look better than Infinite (and yes I also know those weren't trying to be open-world, but that isn't much an excuse either). With the recent reports on their Halo TV stuff in a state of purgatory (among other things), it's pretty clear the problem for Halo Infinite's current situation isn't the XBO, but 343i's wonky, rotten upper management. The fact they let lead designers walk out midway through development...a studio whose management has their 'ish together wouldn't let that happen!

Hopefully people keep this in mind as we see how Halo Infinite's development shapes out. I'm not saying dropping the XBO version does the game no favors, it definitely does. It also benefits MS from a marketing POV in shifting customers towards their next-gen console offerings. But we should also understand that it's a very specific situation applicable mainly to 343i, as we don't see next-gen versions of other big or small games being held back by current-gen hardware like the XBO (or PS4) to anywhere near the detriment it seems to be affecting HI. Games like Cyberpunk for example, CDPR have outright said the current-gen systems are a bit of a hamstring, yet the latest footage has been perhaps the most visually impressive gameplay for it yet. If you want to expand this to open-world games, then we can look at stuff like Red Dead Redemption 2 (not cross-gen, but similarly big-budget and AAA like HI) or being really peculiar, Destiny 2, which is ALSO getting next-gen editions (though if that means graphics boost I don't know), yet still looking much better than HI, even on current-gen hardware. And that example is particularly damning knowing who makes the game and their connection to the legacy of Halo.

So I hope the XBO version is indeed being cancelled, but it's not the only change that needs to happen in order to ensure Halo Infinite lives up to expectations. 343i needs to seriously reorganize their upper management and get their priorities in order. Streamline the pipeline and structural flow in their studio, and develop a good chain of workflow for work-at-home scenarios like so much of the industry is currently dealing with. With the resources and suppor they've had over the past five years, there is no excuse for smaller indie (even if they're AA) games to have better looking & performing next AND current-gen versions than MS's marquee AAA offering, certainly no excuse that simply boils down to "the XBO was the problem".

I tried posting the same thing a couple times but in far less detail and the very first response i got was "what the fuck are you talking about?" or something like that. No one wants to hear it, they just want to dog pile on the idea that cross-gen and subscription services combined are the death of next gen gaming and it's all Microsoft's fault.

I agree with you though, cross-gen development and previous-gen hardware have little to nothing to do with the state of Halo Infinite, it's all about the developers and management that directed them in the current direction.

Thank you for also stating this, i am probably on ignore by 90% of the posters here not that it matters.
 

Jonsoncao

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343 is trash. Bonnie Ross, Frank O’Conner and Kiki Wolfkill are trash. This falls on the leadership, which means Phil is just as responsible. Halo, my favorite franchise, has been ruined by Microsoft. Halo, the reason I stuck with Xbox. Good job destroying your most valuable IP. why isn’t anyone held responsible? Why hasn’t anyone been fired?
This.