Halo |OT| HaloGAF Evolved

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eL Oh eL

As others have said, the game was bad enough to warrant a TU.
I agree, but not the TU we got.

There's a reason Living Dead, Swat, Snipers, TS, and FF have decent populations still. You simply know what you're getting when you go in those playlists. Sure, there's a lot of bullshit that old school Halo people (including myself) don't like with vanilla Reach (AA's, bloom, slow movement, blue spawn, etc...), but it's what Bungie made and still, in my opinion, better than any FPS on the console. Even better that Halo 3 because of the Netcode.

But instead of adapting or shutting the fuck up and waiting for Halo 4, the self-entitled vocal majority that complain on forums got their wish and 343 spent countless man hours creating a TU for those people and they still don't play the game. Look at the numbers. There are more people playing Team Slayer than all of the Anniversary playlists combined, Squad DLC or the Beta playlist right now. Why waste all that time creating a TU that caters to them but they don't play it? It blows my mind.

Those man hours could have been better spent working on Halo 4 or making the vanilla Reach playlists better by adding a ranking system that encourages improvement to rank up, which might encourage people to stay in games and not quit so much, or adjusting spawns on original maps so that red doesn't have the advantage all the time. You know, stuff that actually matters and keeps people interested and coming back.

There hasn't been one update to maps like Swordbase, Boardwalk, Powerhouse, or Reflection since day one in regards to weapon placement or spawns that I'm aware of. I wonder why that is?

So, you get what we have now. Almost 30 different playlists with some that have full bloom, reduced bloom, no bloom, bleed-through, no bleed-through, AL, nerfed AL, inviz, nerfed inviz, 3-shot pistol, 5-shot pistol. The list goes on and on.
 
I agree, but not the TU we got.

There's a reason Living Dead, Swat, Snipers, TS, and FF have decent populations still. You simply know what you're getting when you go in those playlists. Sure, there's a lot of bullshit that old school Halo people (including myself) don't like with vanilla Reach (AA's, bloom, slow movement, blue spawn, etc...), but it's what Bungie made and still, in my opinion, better than any FPS on the console. Even better that Halo 3 because of the Netcode.

But instead of adapting or shutting the fuck up and waiting for Halo 4, the self-entitled vocal majority that complain on forums got their wish and 343 spent countless man hours creating a TU for those people and they still don't play the game. Look at the numbers. There are more people playing Team Slayer than all of the Anniversary playlists combined, Squad DLC or the Beta playlist right now. Why waste all that time creating a TU that caters to them but they don't play it? It blows my mind.

Those man hours could have been better spent working on Halo 4 or making the vanilla Reach playlists better by adding a ranking system that encourages improvement to rank up, which might encourage people to stay in games and not quit so much, or adjusting spawns on original maps so that red doesn't have the advantage all the time. You know, stuff that actually matters and keeps people interested and coming back.

There hasn't been one update to maps like Swordbase, Boardwalk, Powerhouse, or Reflection since day one in regards to weapon placement or spawns that I'm aware of. I wonder why that is?

So, you get what we have now. Almost 30 different playlists with some that have full bloom, reduced bloom, no bloom, bleed-through, no bleed-through, AL, nerfed AL, inviz, nerfed inviz, 3-shot pistol, 5-shot pistol. The list goes on and on.
I wonder what would happen if one of the other slayer playlists were renamed to Team Slayer. I think that people just pick it by default because of its name. It would be an interesting experiment.
 
Look at the numbers. There are more people playing Team Slayer than all of the Anniversary playlists combined, Squad DLC or the Beta playlist right now. Why waste all that time creating a TU that caters to them but they don't play it? It blows my mind.
So the playlist that doesn't require an additional purchase (and has the most recognizable gametype name in the entire series) has more people than a playlist that requires three additional purchases and a bunch of playlists that require one additional purchase, plus a playlist at the bottom of the listing (this is important since people mash on the first thing that shows up - look at how the Anny Squad/Classic playlists reversed when they swapped them in the listing) that is explicitly labeled as a testbed? That's not exactly a totally fair and reasonable metric for judging anything. If you want to go that far, why should they create anything that's not a vanilla Slayer variant in which you spawn with a hammer and infect other players?

Besides, they got an update out there that aside from ruffling some feathers, made the game more enjoyable for what seems like a sizable section of their hardcore audience - the TU giving any glimmer of hope to the MLG community is a huge deal by itself. I'm going to go ahead and guess that the majority of the players out there don't give a shit what minute details of a gametype are being changed. 343 garnered some goodwill out of at least some of their fans, especially those who were on the fence about playing Reach regularly anymore.

The hardcore is by definition a minority. Comparing their population numbers against one of the most casual playlists out there is ridiculous.
 
Wait, you guys where discussing Episode I? I know we have reached the bottom of the barrel to discuss, but c'mon man -- we don't have to stoop so low.

Besides, they got an update out there that aside from ruffling some feathers, made the game more enjoyable for what seems like a sizable section of their hardcore audience - the TU giving any glimmer of hope to the MLG community is a huge deal by itself. I'm going to go ahead and guess that the majority of the players out there don't give a shit what minute details of a gametype are being changed. 343 garnered some goodwill out of at least some of their fans, especially those who were on the fence about playing Reach regularly anymore.

The hardcore is by definition a minority. Comparing their population numbers against one of the most casual playlists out there is ridiculous.
Well put Havok!
 
So the playlist that doesn't require an additional purchase (and has the most recognizable gametype name in the entire series) has more people than a playlist that requires three additional purchases and a bunch of playlists that require one additional purchase, plus a playlist at the bottom of the listing (this is important since people mash on the first thing that shows up - look at how the Anny Squad/Classic playlists reversed when they swapped them in the listing) that is explicitly labeled as a testbed? That's not exactly a totally fair and reasonable metric for judging anything. If you want to go that far, why should they create anything that's not a vanilla Slayer variant in which you spawn with a hammer and infect other players?

Besides, they got an update out there that aside from ruffling some feathers, made the game more enjoyable for what seems like a sizable section of their hardcore audience - the TU giving any glimmer of hope to the MLG community is a huge deal by itself. I'm going to go ahead and guess that the majority of the players out there don't give a shit what minute details of a gametype are being changed. 343 garnered some goodwill out of at least some of their fans, especially those who were on the fence about playing Reach regularly anymore.

The hardcore is by definition a minority. Comparing their population numbers against one of the most casual playlists out there is ridiculous.
Yup, I'd say that about sums it up. I really don't think Team Slayer being the most populated has anything to do with it still being Vanilla.

Come March 5th we will have some real Halo talk....and then 5 minutes later we will go talk about something else.
As long as it's not The Phantom Menace, movie is shit.

I know Frankie said that things are still being played with, but why? The TU Beta playlist launched last September right? That's like 5 months ago and the TU gametype is for the most part exactly the same as it was in the Beta (the Pistol got changed back to a 5SK, anything else?). Reach doesn't have much time left as the main Halo game with 4 coming out this holiday, I think it's time this stuff just gets locked down already.

Really, just keep bleedthrough only on melee and fix the healthpack glitch and I'm a happy camper.
 
Really, just keep bleedthrough only on melee and fix the healthpack glitch and I'm a happy camper.
I am mostly in agreement with your statement good sir.


So 343 is giving us 24 file share slots? 24+ slots confirmed for Halo 4?

They are not giving us render capability for Reach though... which makes me think that rendering will work differently in Halo 4. Maybe just direct upload to Youtube? Or maybe they just don't have Waypoint's rendering function ready to go yet.
I imagine the Hydra is Bungie-specific hardware.
 
So 343 is giving us 24 file share slots? 24+ slots confirmed for Halo 4?

They are not giving us render capability for Reach though... which makes me think that rendering will work differently in Halo 4. Maybe just direct upload to Youtube? Or maybe they just don't have Waypoint's rendering function ready to go yet.
 
Yeah that would be a huge step forward certainly. Sword block being removed is kind of problematic because while that mechanic wasn't great it at least gave you a chance against someone running Sword+Sprint.
I'd rather keep sword parry but get rid of the hammer parry. The hammer parry just seems to go off on it's own when it gets a bit laggy.
 
Guess I should say that I'd be a happier camper. I enjoy the TU settings simply because 85% bloom plays infinitely better than 100%. It was proven statistically too! But those two things would make me even more content. Everything else that's wrong could be fixed with playlist updates.

I'd rather that both parries go. They're power weapons and should be treated as such.
 
Melee bleed-through is just as bad. You have no visual or audible indication in a TU gametype of when a melee will kill you, or when your melee will kill another player, but you do have those cues in default Reach. One way is clearly superior to the other, I don't even understand why it's up for debate.

I guess you nubs need your AR rushes back from Halo 3?
 
^ The solution that comes to mind is simply to make melee less powerful. Melee bleedthrough isn't really an issue in the Anniversary playlists that have 3hko melee. The superpowered melee from Halo 3 onward has created a lot of problems.
I'd rather that both parries go. They're power weapons and should be treated as such.
I tend to agree. The sword parry was inconsistent at best, and in an ideal world those weapons wouldn't be paired with an Evade loadout, drastically reducing their effectiveness. At least a sprinter has to move in a straight line.
 
Because Melee bleedthrough is at least consistent whereas bullet bleedthrough isn't. I always know 3 DMR shots plus a melee will kill. An AR burst and a melee will kill. These things can be learned. With bullet bleedthrough, sometimes you just drop dead while having a sliver of shield left.

Visual cues are not the be all end all of "superiority". The vanilla melee/shield system is weighted too heavily towards melee over guns. Take this instance for example in vanilla Reach:

I see someone at mid-range with the DMR. I start shooting at him and they start sprinting at me. I'm able to get 3 shots on him before he's now in my face and about to melee. So now I can either:

1) Attempt those last 2 shots in at close range and hope that the second shot is a headshot and I can finish him off before I get double meleed.

2) Also Melee as he gets to close range and probably end up trading.

3) Melee and jump back and do a little duel for the headshot.

This shit happened frequently. Obviously not all the time, but enough that I was even able to write out this scenario. I didn't just pull this outta my ass and it's frustrating every time.

There are or course other options and variables to consider but the point is that in all instances those shots I made and landed don't count for anything as soon as we're both in close range. Why? How is that okay? Do people actually think that's good? It's a system that rewards lame-ass tactics and makes CQC sloppy.

It's so good in Vanilla reach to shoot a guy with 3-4 DMR shots, have him melee you and you melee him, and some how you're on equal footing even though he never shot you!
Well you did a much better job of explaining it quickly than I did in my little scenario thingy. It's shit either way.
 
It's so good in Vanilla reach to shoot a guy with 3-4 DMR shots, have him melee you and you melee him, and some how you're on equal footing even though he never shot you!
In the case of 4 you win that encounter and knowing that fact, you can consistently win against melee rushers. So yeah, it works. In fact, you don't even need to do 4 shots, you just shoot till he pops, then melee. You win. C'mon man, you know this.

^ The solution that comes to mind is simply to make melee less powerful. Melee bleedthrough isn't really an issue in the Anniversary playlists that have 3hko melee. The superpowered melee from Halo 3 onward has created a lot of problems.
Yes. I like the Anniversary settings, and I like the way the game plays when the melee is diminished. I can't believe the better players here are actually advocating the 5 AR bullet + punch system.

Yes, I'd much rather play a shitty game with an excellent feedback system that a semi-decent one that isn't always totally clear.
HA! Like bleed-through turns Reach from shit into semi-decent. Get real.
 
I can't believe the better players here are actually advocating the 5 AR bullet + punch system.
You're isolating that one thing making it the backbone of your argument. Sure, that tactic comes back, but 85% bloom is also there so the Pistol becomes much more consistent and a more viable option to take out AR rushers before they can even get to you.

Besides, most of the better players here hate ARs anyways and always vote for DMR starts so it really is a non issue.

Double melee or having my shots just not matter is more annoying than AR rushers ever were.
 
Because Melee bleedthrough is at least consistent whereas bullet bleedthrough isn't. I always know 3 DMR shots plus a melee will kill. An AR burst and a melee will kill. These things can be learned. With bullet bleedthrough, sometimes you just drop dead while having a sliver of shield left.

Visual cues are not the be all end all of "superiority". The vanilla melee/shield system is weighted too heavily towards melee over guns. Take this instance for example in vanilla Reach:

I see someone at mid-range with the DMR. I start shooting at him and they start sprinting at me. I'm able to get 3 shots on him before he's now in my face and about to melee. So now I can either:

1) Attempt those last 2 shots in at close range and hope that the second shot is a headshot and I can finish him off before I get double meleed.

2) Also Melee as he gets to close range and probably end up trading.

3) Melee and jump back and do a little duel for the headshot.

This shit happened frequently. Obviously not all the time, but enough that I was even able to write out this scenario. I didn't just pull this outta my ass and it's frustrating every time.

There are or course other options and variables to consider but the point is that in all instances those shots I made and landed don't count for anything as soon as we're both in close range. Why? How is that okay? Do people actually think that's good? It's a system that rewards lame-ass tactics and makes CQC sloppy.


Well you did a much better job of explaining it quickly than I did in my little scenario thingy. It's shit either way.
In the majority of those cases I find I am able to get in those 4 shots to drop shields. Since they are running directly at you you can fire the DMR as fast as possible and hit every shot. I am of the opinion that while all 3 are central to Halo good gunplay should prevail over melee and grenades.

In that vein I dislike making the melee stronger which is what adding bleedthrough does. In all of this I was disappointed 343 never tweaked grenade damage/range. To me, nades are far more annoying than spint and melee users.

I much prefer the sprint + double melee to the AR+melee. Both are sloppy obviously but the AR+melee was much more effective and thus more annoying.
 
In the majority of those cases I find I am able to get in those 4 shots to drop shields. Since they are running directly at you you can fire the DMR as fast as possible and hit every shot. I am off the opinion that while all 3 are central to Halo good gunplay should prevail over melee and grenades.

In that vein I dislike making the melee stronger which is what adding bleedthrough does. In all of this I was disappointed 343 never tweaked grenade damage/range. To me, nades are far more annoying than spint and melee users.

I much prefer the sprint + double melee to the AR+melee. Both are sloppy obviously but the AR+melee was much more effective and thus more annoying.
I'm not saying it's an unbeatable tactic and sometimes you'll get the 4th shot in be able to land the headshot before you get double meleed. But that doesn't always happen. 3 shots, 4 shots, doesn't matter. Why is it okay in either circumstance that my bullets just not count for anything anymore?

I'm of the opinion that melee should do just enough damage to take off the shields, no more, no less so I kinda agree with you. One of things that 343i can tweak since Frankie said they are apparently still tweaking. Yeah, grenades never being tweaked was pretty weak.

I really don't find AR rushing to be very effective at all against a competent foe whereas those in Reach will abuse double melee/sprint melee when they can because they know that sometimes you just can't do shit about it.
 
So what game is everyone else playing?
Halo 3. The only problem is it's Reach in their disc drives.

I'm not saying it's an unbeatable tactic and sometimes you'll get the 4th shot in be able to land the headshot before you get double meleed. But that doesn't always happen. 3 shots, 4 shots, doesn't matter. Why is it okay in either circumstance that my bullets just not count for anything anymore?

If you get 4 shots and he goes for the melee you will have broken his shields so you win. If he gets close enough to melee you when you are only able to get off three you should realize that and melee early. This is the nice thing about having this indicators you always know where you stand in an encounter.


I'm of the opinion that melee should do just enough damage to take off the shields, no more, no less so I kinda agree with you. One of things that 343i can tweak since Frankie said they are apparently still tweaking. Yeah, grenades never being tweaked was pretty weak.

I think the answer then is not melee bleed through but having 2 melees to break shields like you said.

I really don't find AR rushing to be very effective at all against a competent foe whereas those in Reach will abuse double melee/sprint melee when they can because they know that sometimes you just can't do shit about it.

That is true but these encounters do not happen in vacuums. The thing that sucks about the AR + melee is that they are going to get some piece of you. Whereas with the spint melee they might get a melee in but you can shut them out if they botch it.
 
If you get 4 shots and he goes for the melee you will have broken his shields so you win. If he gets close enough to melee you when you are only able to get off three you should realize that and melee early. This is the nice thing about having this indicators you always know where you stand in an encounter.
Okay, you're right about the 4 shot. Totally forgot about that option. Gonna blame that on it being late. :p

Even if you melee early, the sprint + melee lunge makes closing the gap for them very quick you could still just end up on equal footing. Latency can also fuck things up in a situation like that since the timing for the early melee would have to be pretty precise.

I think the answer then is not melee bleed through but having 2 melees to break shields like you said.
A lot of us are accustomed to 1 melee taking out shields from a fully shielded position from Halo 3 and that's what I meant. But two melee's to take out shields and 1 to kill an unshielded player without bleedthrough is something I'd be willing to test out. Sounds like it could work quite well actually. That's the kinda shit we should be using the Beta playlist for.

I've never seen more wrong people patting each other on the back anywhere than I have here.
Come on dude, the fuck is with this constant chip on your shoulder?
 
I've never seen more wrong people patting each other on the back anywhere than I have here.
But the thing is, what Ramirez said DOES happen frequently in vanilla Reach. You'd be silly to deny it - sprint + double melee is super frustrating. The lower bloom settings helps to counter this. Unfortunately the TU has a side effect of making AR + melee powerful again, but when you play DMR starts, this is less of a problem.

Also, people aren't advocating AR + melee, they are merely saying that they also don't like the way Reach works - possibly to a greater extent than they hated the problems in Halo 3.
 
It's so good in Vanilla reach to shoot a guy with 3-4 DMR shots, have him melee you and you melee him, and some how you're on equal footing even though he never shot you!


It's marked on my calendar.



And no, I didn't put it there myself, you weirdos.




It comes already marked on the Mary-Kate and Ashley 2004 Wall Calendar.
They're too damn rich to need to do anything like pose for Playboy, I guess that means I'll have to go at them directly.
Agreed.
 
But the thing is, what Ramirez said DOES happen frequently in vanilla Reach. You'd be silly to deny it - sprint + double melee is super frustrating. The lower bloom settings helps to counter this. Unfortunately the TU has a side effect of making AR + melee powerful again, but when you play DMR starts, this is less of a problem.

Also, people aren't advocating AR + melee, they are merely saying that they also don't like the way Reach works - possibly to a greater extent than they hated the problems in Halo 3.
That doesn't make any sense. Bloom isn't even a factor when a guy is rushing you because you can fire at the max rate. I deny that it's frustrating. Read the article. Play smarter.

It's frustrating to lose. It's frustrating to stay cool in intense encounters. Everything about the TU is catering to lazier play. I don't wanna think about bloom. I don't wanna think about melee encounters. I don't wanna think. It's for the lowest common denominator worst kind of whiny kid player that used to flood Bungie.net and now floods Halo Waypoint.

Good night.
 
That doesn't make any sense. Bloom isn't even a factor when a guy is rushing you because you can fire at the max rate. I deny that it's frustrating. Read the article. Play smarter.

It's frustrating to lose. It's frustrating to stay cool in intense encounters. Everything about the TU is catering to lazier play. I don't wanna think about bloom. I don't wanna think about melee encounters. I don't wanna think. It's for the lowest common denominator worst kind of whiny kid player that used to flood Bungie.net and now floods Halo Waypoint.

Good night.
Sprint + Melee catered to lazier play too. Though since you feel that way about the changes, why exactly did you become a Halo fan in the first place? Seems like you'd peg the other games as being for the "lowest common denominator worst kind of whiny kid player" too.
 
Can we get that kill progress bar back in Halo 4?


I'm talking about number 5.
It's a really small detail but a good one.
In general I like Halo 3's HUD more than Reach's. It's just little details though like the different images for bullets remaining, and the grenade information. I also like the shield bar being one whole indicator instead of two that are the same mirrored. The only thing it is missing is an indicator for health and then it would be golden.
 
That doesn't make any sense. Bloom isn't even a factor when a guy is rushing you because you can fire at the max rate. I deny that it's frustrating. Read the article. Play smarter.

It's frustrating to lose. It's frustrating to stay cool in intense encounters. Everything about the TU is catering to lazier play. I don't wanna think about bloom. I don't wanna think about melee encounters. I don't wanna think. It's for the lowest common denominator worst kind of whiny kid player that used to flood Bungie.net and now floods Halo Waypoint.

Good night.
lolwut.

We don't have a problem with pacing shots. We have a problem with the randomness introduced which leads to sloppy play. Bloom will also still have an effect on getting a headshot at closeish range.

I think you have confused lazier play with more competitive and fun play.
 
HBO Forum February Reach Update Meltdown Quotes






There's a reason Living Dead, Swat, Snipers, TS, and FF have decent populations still. You simply know what you're getting when you go in those playlists.
You're highly delusional if you think those playlists are popular because they're vanilla or 'you know what you're getting'.

Living Dead: Exploitation, utterly imbalanced in regards to humans and zombies, credit farm, so easy to get kills that heroin addicts have a positive k/d in it.

Swat/Snipers: Population would be completely unaffected by a move to TU settings. People play it because it's a catered for a niche gametype.

Team Slayer: High population because of its position at the top of the playlist page and being instantly recognisable as the stock 'deathmatch' gametype throughout Halo's history.

Firefight: Wut? Nothing to do with vanilla settings.

PNut said:
But instead of adapting or shutting the fuck up and waiting for Halo 4, the self-entitled vocal majority that complain on forums got their wish and 343 spent countless man hours creating a TU for those people and they still don't play the game. Look at the numbers.
Not to be rude but why don't you in turn adapt to the TU, shut the fuck up and wait for Halo 4 then?

Here's an idea:

*Remove Squad Slayer

*Make Team Slayer TU and leave it at the top of the Competitive page

*Make a playlist entitled 'Vanilla Reach Slayer' and put it at the very bottom of the competitve page

Then we'll have an idea of just how many players out there really want to play the vanilla settings. If you get a high population trueskill might even work for you!


With all the criticism they're recieving, I'd just like to take this post to THANK 343 for the excellent (not perfect) title update. I really liked playing the game before; I now love it. 85% bloom and nerfed Armour Lock make the world a better place.
 
Double melee or having my shots just not matter is more annoying than AR rushers ever were.
Both are shit, what's the point? Also both shared simultaneous deaths, which is the absolute worst. The way I look at it, it is simply more of the Fair Gameplay™ we've all come to know in these later Halo MP games. They belong in the Isolation dumpster with vehicle stunning/locking, bad equipment/AA's, and so forth.

Looking at the picture reminds me: I have a high distaste for the shield bar being placed on the top of the screen in our HUD.
 
I forget about arena every couple weeks, then someone in here mentions it and I manage to remember it only to forget 2 hours later. So for me...not a successful system.
The problem with arena is that it's 80% forge world and always DMR starts.

AR and pistol is the god combo, I love it, but hardly any halo gametype uses it.

So I just live in anniversary playlists.
 
HBO is an even more insular, bizarre Halo community than HaloGAF. If the layout wasn't so atrocious I'd like to read it for the tears.
They are just passionate is all, Just imagine it from their point of view, with vanilla reach being taken over by the TU ganetypes, I'd be pretty upset (if I actually liked vanilla).

Although, I do think what Slightly Live did was not in good taste unfortunately.

Might as well rename it Halo.Bungie.net
You!

I don't know why I'm even quoting you really, but must you post that damn kinect futurama gif everywhere I go!? :p
 
I hate to say it but I agree with Hiredn00bs, the Reach melee system works better than the guessing game called bleedthrough. Bleedthrough especially screws with your shields the moment they recharge which leads to you getting one-shotted when you've got about half your shields back.

Reach's system isn't perfect as some have said but it's still a lot more clear and you always know what to expect. Sometimes melee rushers will screw you over but I also had many moments where I decided to shoot one more time before punching because I knew that would give me the win. It's a lot more consistent than bleedthrough is.

Either way, bleedthrough doesn't bother me that much and I'll happily suck it up to play 85% bloom.
 
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