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[ElzarTheBam]

I know you meant Focus Rifle, but the game brought two weapons that should be, at the very least, entertained to be welcome back in the next couple games: Plasma Launcher and the Grenade Launcher. They could use a few minor tweaks here and there pending the base speed and all that in the next game's settings, but they're viable weapons and fun ones to use. When was the last time we got that, Battle Rifle from Halo 2? It's a pretty rare occurrence to have new weapons actually be meaningful.

I do like the Plasma launcher, take that over the laser anyday in BTB.

 

[wwm0nkey]

I do like the Plasma launcher, take that over the laser anyday in BTB.

Agreed on this actually. I really want the vehicle sniper do die in a fire already.

 

[squidhands]

I will agree that the Plasma Launcher and the Pro Pipe are good additions.

(Also I keep on forgetting the name of it because I hardly use the damn thing, and for good reason)

Focus Rifle was completely ruined after the beta. I cannot fathom why it was ever changed.

Here's to hoping that powerups make a triumphant return to Halo 4. Unless there's a huge revamp to the AA implementation (like used as pickups, able to swap out with others without having to die first), I'd rather them not come back.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Focus Rifle is still a very good weapon for both long and close range. I get plenty of kills and the visible beam is a nice waypoint to show allies where targets are at... and let's the. enemy knows where I am.

Letting the enemies know where you are is the best part. Then they flock to you. And you rain the death upon them.

Okay you guys really got me thinking about Reach MP. Imagine this. Game's default movement are the Anniversary settings. Possibly include Jetpack, Armor lock (TU version of course), Camo, Hologram as pickups. Game uses 85% bloom, possibly sandbox tweaked a bit more like the beta (idea is most guns are just a tad stronger). That's a damn good game right there.

The only issue would be maps.

 

[Trey]

The great thing about past Halo's was that they were deceivingly simple at a glance, but the more you played, the more complex the game became to truly master.

You can't master Reach's systems. Bloom will always screw you over at some point, the AA's are completely unpredictable in the hands of a good team, the grenades are so powerful, placement becomes an after thought, and the movement speed/jump height hinders any type of experimentation in map movement.

I'm not against change either, but you have to be careful with it, look at how terrible a majority of the vehicles are now just because gunfire destroys them. A sniper rifle should never be a viable weapon to destroy vehicles, there's a reason you have big slow weapons like the PL in the game...

It's a good point saying you can't master Reach's systems, but I think it only applies to bloom mechanics. I agree that chance outside players' control is not a desirable cap to weapon proficiency. Recoil with a moving reticule would be preferable.

Jump is well done all around. It happens fast enough and has some weight to it, so its use has great feedback. The height always felt right to me as well.

Reach added things to the core of Halo that didn't belong there. Mostly prominently loadouts. Halo has always been about starting on an even playing field. Loadouts ruin this. You can't predict what AAs the enemies use so it becomes a guessing game.

There's a difference between adding complexity by layering shit on top

and adding complexity by increasing depth.

Bloom, AA's, the dwindling importance of the individual player were added on. Bloom made you fight against the game and time in order to maintain consistency. Or you could play the statistical game and inject some chance into your shot for a faster potential kill. Chance should NEVER be included in a firefight. It leads to inconsistency and bullshit.

AA's turned it into a game of stealth rock paper scissors. Sprinters could rush you and run away with ease, jetpacks broke map design, camo turned into a hassle hide and seek match and on and on. They didn't make Halo combat more deep or complex, just added another layer to it you had to fight with and against. It was trying to turn Halo almost into a class based game, but the catch is you don't know what class someone is until they use their AA.

Then Bloom, the AA's adding survivability, the lessened killing power, lessened motion and agility made it so you couldn't go as big as you could in previous games. It relied more on teamwork. Which is good and all, but the individual should still feel powerful...

Prediction never comes into play because the AAs are not hard counters to each other. They are designed to provide quantified benefits to its users. The problem is that there is no negative trait to them. They aren't restrained or checked within the gameplay-they are merely limited in prolonged use. And because every player has infinite access to them, that's where the abuse emerges.

There is no real wrong time to use your AA. They suit every situation to some degree, and only make things more difficult for you opponent with no ingenuity on your part. If there was a subsystem of engagement/conflict in using an AA, then actual depth would occur. If you could shoot a jetpacker's jetpack while its ignited for an instant kill or assassinate an armor locker, there would be a player enforced limit on their use instead of a game system one. That is dynamic gameplay.

Currently the only cons to all the AAs is that they make you stand out more, which isn't an effective con for the majority of Halo's gameplay situations. That is clearly not enough.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Letting the enemies know where you are is the best part. Then they flock to you. And you rain the death upon them.

Okay you guys really got me thinking about Reach MP. Imagine this. Game's default movement are the Anniversary settings. Possibly include Jetpack, Armor lock (TU version of course), Camo, Hologram as pickups. Game uses 85% bloom, possibly sandbox tweaked a bit more like the beta (idea is most guns are just a tad stronger). That's a damn good game right there.

The only issue would be maps.

Those are the only 2 I would accept as pick ups. AA's should have been pick ups from the get go though and not load outs, it gives us something to fight for on the maps like Camo, OS and power weapons.

Maps are still shitty though, I think the only decent one was Powerhouse when Reach came out.

 

[KidA Seven]

Focus Rifle was a great weapon.


Then it got nerfed.

: (

 

[Havok]

Game's default movement are the Anniversary settings.

Fix the gravity settings so the jump isn't total crap like it is now and then we can talk.

Reach's default jump is better than it is given credit for, I'd take it over the moon jumps from 3 or the 2 inch hop in Anniversary.

Some thoughts on the jetpack - what people enjoy about the idea of a jetpack is the increased traversal capabilities, right? Sprint provides this for ground movement, allowing for a wide variety of jumps that are only possible with it, and Sprint is far less contentious than the jetpack. What makes these different? Primarily, that you can fire while jetpacking is a big problem, making that nightmare of grenades raining from the sky a reality. If that ability were removed, it could still provide that traversal element without the annoying bits. As it stands, the ability is schizophrenic and too proficient at being both aggressive and travel-oriented. Map control may be able to be preserved since the user would be a literal sitting duck at the expense of that increased jump.

 

[Trey]

Maps are still shitty though, I think the only decent one was Powerhouse when Reach came out.

This is all I ever hear. From a design standpoint, I only found Sword Base to be truly boring and dysfunctional. A map-by-map breakdown of why all the maps save one are terrible, from anyone, would be interesting.

 

[wwm0nkey]

This is all I ever hear. From a design standpoint, I only found Sword Base to be truly boring and dysfunctional. A map-by-map breakdown of why all the maps save one are terrible, from anyone, would be interesting.

If a map is not fun its just not fun, simple as that. You dont need to see things at a design stand point to know "Hey I am not enjoying this any time I play it"

 

[Steelyuhas]

Those are the only 2 I would accept as pick ups. AA's should have been pick ups from the get go though and not load outs, it gives us something to fight for on the maps like Camo, OS and power weapons.

Maps are still shitty though, I think the only decent one was Powerhouse when Reach came out.

Fair enough.

Fix the gravity settings so the jump isn't total crap like it is now and then we can talk.

Reach's default jump is better than it is given credit for, I'd take it over the moon jumps from 3 or the 2 inch hop in Anniversary.

Agreed. I wanted the default Reach jump, I forgot that it's all fudged in Anniversary.

 

[squidhands]

This is all I ever hear. From a design standpoint, I only found Sword Base to be truly boring and dysfunctional. A map-by-map breakdown of why all the maps save one are terrible, from anyone, would be interesting.

I hope you don't expect one about Uncaged. Should be self-explanatory.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

This is all I ever hear. From a design standpoint, I only found Sword Base to be truly boring and dysfunctional. A map-by-map breakdown of why all the maps save one are terrible, from anyone, would be interesting.

For me it was map control, or rather the lack of and interesting control points in the reach maps.

For example, I loved fighting over and holding the lift area in contstruct, the middle hill on Valhalla, keyhole on avalanche, ring on sanctuary etc

In reach, its like lift on sword base, Top health pack on countdown etc

Just very uninteresting to me.

 

[xxjuicesxx]

I agree about the complexity, people don't like Reach because theres a lot to account for. People find that hard to adapt to.

 

[daedalius]

Fair enough.



Agreed. I wanted the default Reach jump, I forgot that it's all fudged in Anniversary.

Anniversary jumps are awful, good luck hopping over that Ghost that will inevitably run you over on Timberland. Even if you time it perfectly, you don't have the height to clear getting splattered.

 

[Karl2177]

This is all I ever hear. From a design standpoint, I only found Sword Base to be truly boring and dysfunctional. A map-by-map breakdown of why all the maps save one are terrible, from anyone, would be interesting.

Reflection - Jetpack breaks flow, sniper is in perfect position at spawn, red team has shot at all power weapons while blue only has a shot at sword and sniper.

Sword Base - walk way gameplay is bad, traversing the map takes a while, no real control points aside from green lift

Asylum - snipe-to-snipe causes framerate lag, horrible Forge remake of a great map

Cage - walkway gameplay sucks, no great control points, spawns suck ass

Hemo - slow move speed on giant map is bad

Boardwalk - linear fights, limited mobility

Zealot - its a circle on top of a circle with a no fun outside space

Boneyard - only a third of the map is used at any given time

Spire - I don't even want to start on this one

Countdown - cqc power weapons galore with sprint and evade!

 

[feel]

I love Reach though... I think Hologram is the best thing to come out of it. So beast.

Bloom is fine as a mechanic but 100% is just too much. 85% really does hit that sweet spot.

Loved Halo 3, loved Reach, can't wait for 4.

Hologram is great. I hope it comes back as a weapon or equipment.

 

[Trey]

I hope you don't expect one about Uncaged. Should be self-explanatory.

I meant to put "non-Forge" maps into my post but forgot.

Reflection - Jetpack breaks flow, sniper is in perfect position at spawn, red team has shot at all power weapons while blue only has a shot at sword and sniper.

Sword Base - walk way gameplay is bad, traversing the map takes a while, no real control points aside from green lift

Asylum - snipe-to-snipe causes framerate lag, horrible Forge remake of a great map

Cage - walkway gameplay sucks, no great control points, spawns suck ass

Hemo - slow move speed on giant map is bad

Boardwalk - linear fights, limited mobility

Zealot - its a circle on top of a circle with a no fun outside space

Boneyard - only a third of the map is used at any given time

Spire - I don't even want to start on this one

Countdown - cqc power weapons galore with sprint and evade!

Thanks.

 

[Hydranockz]

Hologram is great. I hope it comes back as a weapon or equipment.

Passive abilities like that would be great to see in 4.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Hologram is great. I hope it comes back as a weapon or equipment.

Hologram seems to be the only AA that everyone finds unobjectionable yet it's not a loadout in most MM gametypes.

 

[Gabotron ES]

Hologram seems to be the only AA that everyone finds unobjectionable yet it's not a loadout in most MM gametypes.

Replace evade by hologram. SUCCESS.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I have played Reach non stop since it came out. Not because it's my job, but because I enjoy it. What I will concede happily, is that it contains more surface-level complexity than any other Halo and creates more apparent disagreement, invariably because of those added layers.

The more features a game has the more that's going to likely annoy people. I think its weird to play that off as complexity though. Others have said it better, with Reach theres layers upon layers of junk. Its like having a chocolate cake but topping it with all sorts junk that you cant get to the chocolate. Thats not complexity.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Hologram seems to be the only AA that everyone finds unobjectionable yet it's not a loadout in most MM gametypes.

Yep I dont know anyone that has a problem with Hologram.

 

[The Librarian]

The great thing about past Halo's was that they were deceivingly simple at a glance, but the more you played, the more complex the game became to truly master.

You can't master Reach's systems. Bloom will always screw you over at some point, the AA's are completely unpredictable in the hands of a good team, the grenades are so powerful, placement becomes an after thought, and the movement speed/jump height hinders any type of experimentation in map movement.

The game just doesn't feel like any Halo from the past, and I guarantee you that if it didn't have the Halo name and lore attached to it, after the beta, the vast majority would have never gave it a second look.

I'm not against change either, but you have to be careful with it, look at how terrible a majority of the vehicles are now just because gunfire destroys them. A sniper rifle should never be a viable weapon to destroy vehicles, there's a reason you have big slow weapons like the PL in the game...

The more I think about this, the more I agree with it.

 

[Karl2177]

The more I think about this, the more I agree with it.

"Jack of all trades, master of none." - someone in HaloGAF.

Spoiler

I'm sorry for not remembering, think it was Ram or Striker.

 

[Havok]

Zealot - its a circle on top of a circle with a no fun outside space

Anything can be distilled into an awful-sounding description.

Arena Zealot is a legitimately good map, easily the best on the disc. Fixing the center lifts and spawn zones could elevate it to 'great' status. It's Desolation done right. I'd like to see a variant where the red/blue/gold outer lifts into space dump you into top center through a tube convergence instead.

 

[Tashi]

Even after 3 years, no one mastered the 4 shot in Halo 3. Leading shots was, to me, as consistent or inconsistent as bloom.

 

[feel]

When you start making holograms change directions on lifts shit gets real!

 

[Tashi]

When you start making holograms change directions on lifts shit gets real!

I adore hologram. It's just too much fun to use.

 

[FyreWulff]

Even after 3 years, no one mastered the 4 shot in Halo 3. Leading shots was, to me, as consistent or inconsistent as bloom.

It's why I care less about the feedback on bloom now. It won't matter what's in there. People bitched about the spread and leading, they bitch about bloom, they'll bitch about spread or RoF caps or recoil or whatever mechanic is in Halo 4. I'm just going to focus on the brokeness of duct taping bleedthrough to a game that wasn't designed around it. I have no problem with the idea of bleedthrough, it's fine in the previous games, but it doesn't belong in Reach. If they wanted to bring bleedthrough back, save it for Halo 4. I don't get punished by bloom and I don't get fucked over by it because I know how to pace properly, so I just accept now that other people just refuse or don't want to learn how.

 

[Gabotron ES]

When you start making holograms change directions on lifts shit gets real!

wat?

 

[Trey]

I didn't agree with the Chess-esque "simple to learn, hard to master" maxim applied to the older Halos either, but this discussion isn't about them, it's about Reach.

Halo 1-3 were fine games. I love them all. I don't need them to HD'd and given to me again, however. Halo's gameplay can be built upon, and Reach's clumsy steps toward that end are signs of progress in my opinion. We know what doesn't work and what can be improved upon and reimplemented.

 

[xxjuicesxx]

It might not feel like Halo because its the most changed Halo from its previous version. So in our 3 experiences of Halo to next Halo its the largest change. This is why it offended the most people.

Its still DEFINITELY Halo. Shots, movement, shields, weapons are all pretty similar if you are excluding the intended changes, its just running on a modified engine.

If Reach isn't Halo please tell me a more recent game that is more Halo than Reach is. Please, go ahead.

Some of the claims in this thread are so astronomically absurd. Bunch of stoners discussing how awesome that light bulb was while sitting in the dark.

Does anyone here want to get on and play this game? Now?

 

[Steelyuhas]

Even after 3 years, no one mastered the 4 shot in Halo 3. Leading shots was, to me, as consistent or inconsistent as the internet.

Fixed

Agreed though. Especially with 85%, I would say that Reach is significantly more consistent than Halo 3 spread (at least online).

 

[Overdoziz]

I love how some people here think that the people who complain about Reach suck at the game. I know how to pace shots, I can use Evade and Jetpack (barring bumper jumper) but that doesn't mean it's fun for me.

 

[Homeboyd]

Check out Bungie's Male Sack (3.0)

Smooth.


DeeJ needs a Gaf account.

 

[CyReN]

Even after 3 years, no one mastered the 4 shot in Halo 3. Leading shots was, to me, as consistent or inconsistent as bloom.

Lies.

 

[Havok]

Especially with 85%, I would say that Reach is significantly more consistent than Halo 3 spread (at least online).

Absolutely agree, having gone back to play Halo 3 recently. The impact of the netcode alone is enormous.

 

[CyReN]

Going back to Halo 3 with their maps color is like the book 'The Giver', it's weird seeing color for the first time again. (this was before 343i saved us with the new map pack)

 

[bobs...onGaf]

It might not feel like Halo because its the most changed Halo from its previous version. So in our 3 experiences of Halo to next Halo its the largest change. This is why it offended the most people.

Its still DEFINITELY Halo. Shots, movement, shields, weapons are all pretty similar if you are excluding the intended changes, its just running on a modified engine.

If Reach isn't Halo please tell me a more recent game that is more Halo than Reach is. Please, go ahead.

Some of the claims in this thread are so astronomically absurd. Bunch of stoners discussing how awesome that light bulb was while sitting in the dark.

Does anyone here want to get on and play this game? Now?

Your asking us to name a game thats not Halo yet plays like Halo and your calling us the stoners?

If there was another current game out there that came close to the original Halo trilogy I would be in heaven. Unfortunately no other developer has managed to rip off the Halo model well, that doesnt excuse Reach for being aweful.

Again change doesnt offend people, bad change does.

Check out Bungie's Male Sack (3.0)

Smooth.


DeeJ needs a Gaf account.

I still find it odd that they played MW3 over Reach.

 

[Tashi]

Going back to Halo 3 with their maps color is like the book 'The Giver', it's weird seeing color for the first time again. (this was before 343i saved us with the new map pack)

Haha, I loved that book.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Your asking us to name a game thats not Halo yet plays like Halo and your calling us the stoners?

If there was another current game out there that came close to the original Halo trilogy I would be in heaven. Unfortunately no other developer has managed to rip off the Halo model well, that doesnt excuse Reach for being aweful.

Again change doesnt offend people, bad change does.

Pretty much what it comes down to really. Again I do NOT hate Halo: Reach but to say its amazing is laughable, here is what Reach did right though

+Forge and Custom Game settings (things most FPS still dont do right)
+Film rendering (though that will be gone soon)
+Active communities (MLG, Griffball, ect)
+Anniversary and 85% bloom are pretty good.

 

[xxjuicesxx]

Your asking us to name a game thats not Halo yet plays like Halo and your calling us the stoners?

If there was another current game out there that came close to the original Halo trilogy I would be in heaven. Unfortunately no other developer has managed to rip off the Halo model well, that doesnt excuse Reach for being aweful.

Again change doesnt offend people, bad change does.

Yes people are saying Reach isn't Halo. So I'm asking what game IS Halo.

I guess what I'm saying is news flash you dont dictate what Halo is. Halo does. Right now Halo Reach is Halo.

If you don't like it give constructive criticism, that could help.

 

[Homeboyd]

I still find it odd that they played MW3 over Reach.

Activision!

 

[thezerofire]

The great thing about past Halo's was that they were deceivingly simple at a glance, but the more you played, the more complex the game became to truly master.

You can't master Reach's systems. Bloom will always screw you over at some point, the AA's are completely unpredictable in the hands of a good team, the grenades are so powerful, placement becomes an after thought, and the movement speed/jump height hinders any type of experimentation in map movement.

agreed on all this. Especially the movement.

Some thoughts on the jetpack - what people enjoy about the idea of a jetpack is the increased traversal capabilities, right? Sprint provides this for ground movement, allowing for a wide variety of jumps that are only possible with it, and Sprint is far less contentious than the jetpack. What makes these different? Primarily, that you can fire while jetpacking is a big problem, making that nightmare of grenades raining from the sky a reality. If that ability were removed, it could still provide that traversal element without the annoying bits. As it stands, the ability is schizophrenic and too proficient at being both aggressive and travel-oriented. Map control may be able to be preserved since the user would be a literal sitting duck at the expense of that increased jump.

It's because map control is based on high ground a lot of the time, and jetpacks negate that. Vertical movement is a lot more powerful than horizontal movement

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Yes people are saying Reach isn't Halo. So I'm asking what game IS Halo.

I guess what I'm saying is news flash you dont dictate what Halo is. Halo does. Right now Halo Reach is Halo.

If you don't like it give constructive criticism, that could help.

Reach beta thread was full of constructive criticism, as was the vast majority of the Reach OT's, 343 listened to that and with limited resources gave us a TU, now going forward im hoping that the full extent of that feedback will be rewarded by Halo 4 being a good game.

I guess what im saying is news flash, the current game on the market doesnt dictate what the fans like, the series does. Right now Halo Reach is doing a bad job of being Halo.

That said Reach has appealed to the fans, im just over-exaggerating, but personally I know what I like, im not going to let the newest game on the market dictate that to me. Ultimately im not going to adapt to a game I dont enjoy. Games are for pleasure, if a series brings me in because of a certain experience im going to expect the sequels to carry on providing me with what I enjoy. If they dont then they had better provide a different enjoyable experience, if it cant do either ill find a different series that I do enjoy playing.

No other game is Halo, that would be ridiculous, on the whole im going to have to wait till Halo 4 to enjoy Halo again, until then I can carry on playing Halo 3, and other games but im not expecting those other games to be like Halo.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

I may agree with some of the Reach criticism here, but I do have to say Halo 4 should not just be a re-skin of Halo 2 or 3, etc. Halo needs to evolve with the times, if Halo 4 is just a fancier Halo 3 people are going to be tired of it.

 

[Ramirez]

I agree about the complexity, people don't like Reach because theres a lot to account for. People find that hard to adapt to.

Then you have people who despite not being able to "adapt", win over 80% of their total games and yet still some how dislike the game despite people saying "oh it's just too complex for them!".

Even after 3 years, no one mastered the 4 shot in Halo 3. Leading shots was, to me, as consistent or inconsistent as bloom.

Well, no where in my post did I say Halo 3 was perfect. Halo 2 had the best gunplay, hands down. A reliable precision weapon that was capped off at a certain distance, really the only way it should be. Non power weapon shouldn't be able to shoot from one end of Coag to the other. And at the same time, an artificial mechanic shouldn't punish you, making it basically impossible to survive a 2 on 1 fight, or a fight right after you just got done finishing one.

I wish there was some kind of data that could show how likely a person is to die after finishing a fight if another guy comes up immediately after. The way bloom works, you have to wait for your reticule to go back down while the guy coming in after the fight gets a free 1-2 shot lead on you before you're even back on even ground gun wise. That's not good gameplay to me.

As for constructive criticism, how much was said in the beta thread about bloom, movement, vehicles(which I guess by beta standards were made better, but by about a 5% increase), grenades, etc? It fell on deaf ears. Was it Sage who was completely against adding more bullets to the Pistol? In Vanilla Reach it's basically pure luck if you're able to 5 shot someone with the Pistol before reloading, something so simple as that, and someone was completely dead set on not changing it. For a studio that is known for listening to its fans pretty well, Reach was not a shining moment in that department.

 

[Reagan's BR]

I want to be able to see the HUD in Halo 4.

 

[wwm0nkey]

I may agree with some of the Reach criticism here, but I do have to say Halo 4 should not just be a re-skin of Halo 2 or 3, etc. Halo needs to evolve with the times, if Halo 4 is just a fancier Halo 3 people are going to be tired of it.

Agreed with this too. Halo needs change, but not the change we got with Reach.

(Still love the idea of a booster pack being used for evade, double jump and other movement options)