Support NeoGAF

[willow ve]

Ok, so we're mid-match in Zanzibar and Rockets aren't top mid. When do they respawn?

Be careful, you've played two games on Zanzibar, you should have already honed the ability to know when Rockets were picked up, marked the time on the in-game clock you probably don't even realize exists, and are preparing yourself for the respawn in 3 minutes, right? Right?

With a large enough population size and strict skill matching you would also get matched against players who know as little (or as much) about the game as you. You might get killed by rockets at the beginning due to the other team stumbling upon them, but you might also stumble upon them yourself.

The idea that static drops should be dropped in order to DECREASE the skill gap so it's more "fun" for the random casuals who play 1-5 games a month is laughable. If you're continually losing due to the opposition getting rockets, sniper, overshield, etc., eventually you will drop out of their skill matching "rank" and you can run around with AR starts on Hemorrhage with the other players who don't care to know more about the game than what the game obviously tells them via HUD or announcer.

Even then, folllowing the argument that "global ordnance is great and it should be kept" as it stands it is so convoluted and random that it is essentially 100% luck as to who gets a weapon and when. This, in my opinion, is even more frustrating than a team who has knowledge and experience and can exploit that knowledge. In the global ordnance scenario its random who gets what when. In the static drop there is an actual skill that can be learned, over time, to make you a better player. I prefer the method that rewards a dedicated player/fan instead of the method that rewards teams with power weapons and/or wins on a purely random basis.

Many great modern shooters don't benefit map knowledge the way Halo does. Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, Battlefield. Stepping into Halo, it's a huge step up to learn weapon spawn locations and times.

Do you even play BF3? Winning a match is often 100% contingent on map knowledge. Oh, you didn't know you could climb cranes? You didn't know you could jump out of helicopters on top of a building? You didn't know where the other team would get spawn trapped? You don't know the most advantageous spaces to plant C4, clyamores, or how to use mortars?

 

[Poker Face]

Is Halo 4 a decent game? Yeah. Is it a good Halo game? Fuck, no. Basically my feelings as a whole on the game.

ditto, felt this way about Reach as well.

 

[Digital Limit]

You're right, now all I can tell people is "go do whatever you want, I have no fucking idea where any of the weapons are." That's a big difference from slayer in the pit, for example, where I can say "rockets spawn in this halway, sniper spawns under this tower, camo is here. Always." They wanted to change the system so good players don't have some kind of knowledge advantage over bad kids playing the game for the first time in their lives? Congratulations, now no one knows where shit is. Just spawn in with your plasma pistol, sticky nades and camo and go troll every vehicle on the map. Don't forget to use your perks accordingly! Classic halo.

Actually, veteran players would still have an advantage, just a lesser one.

Specific weapons still spawn at certain locations, it's just not determined. Like it has been discussed, Solace has two Sniper rifle spawn locations. Right side of either base. Rockets are Ring 1 on Abandon. Binary Rifles are on either side ramp on Haven. You can still hold these locations in advance at the hope that you'll get lucky.

It's different, but it doesn't warrant the derp coming off of your post.

 

[Tawpgun]

Can we find one person that enjoys global ordnance? To at least justify 343's decision?

 

[scar tissue]

This is a good point on the shit design philosophy that ruined Halo 4.

With the exception of some, it seems like Halo 4 stripped the player of all of the abilities he previously had (decent grenades, ability to pick them up, good amount of ammo, knowing when and where weapons spawn, etc) and made him choose between them.

Why should I have to pick abilities to tailor to my style of play when how I play should tailor to my style of play?

Yeah, if they insist on keeping the perks in, they should've brought something new to the table instead of cutting down your abilities and giving you back two at a time.

 

[Havok]

Using a veteran/noob disparity is a poor example. The two should never be matched with each other, the progression should be organic as a team gets better and better and learns the spawns by virtue of playing. I get that matchmaking systems aren't perfect, but designing systems around a shitty skill matching algorithm? Eh.

Speaking of that, why does the sniper at the team bases of Ragnarok keep respawning? Everything after the initial global ordnance drop around the map doesn’t respawn at all. After that it is just a wildcard draw on what global drop is going to happen. On other maps, such as Exile and Longbow, after the initial global ordnance drop the weapons don’t respawn. It’s all random after that.

You can set resupply times for Initial Ordnance. I guess they felt that the bases would be at too much of a disadvantage if a team was controlling hill and thus all the neutral power weapon spawns.

 

[Duji]

It's fun to have a conversation with someone who has no respect or sincerity.

If you don't believe that anyone has ever decided against Halo because of the jarring skill gap of facing someone who knows the maps versus someone who doesn't, you're living in a lonely bubble. I know plenty of people, but I also leave the house.



Predictive systems benefit veteran players. Reactive systems benefit newer players.

I'd like more of my friends to play Halo with me, so I prefer reactive systems.

All the developer has to do is:

1. Use the classic weapon drop system
2. Show everyone where the weapons are before the map begins or while in the loading screen as juices suggested. Also have the weapon locations show up when you hold down the back button or something. Keep Halo 4's initial weapon indicators.

There you go. The noobs will always know where the weapons are and the veterans still dominate. Done.

 

[DeadNames]

Does anyone even really like global ordnance? I NEVER experienced weapon camping outside of BTB on hemorrhage with the sniper.

 

[Ken]

Why is Chief's head a stick and why is he holding a portal gun.

 

[orznge]

Does anyone even really like global ordnance? I NEVER experienced weapon camping outside of BTB on hemorrhage with the sniper.

even then "weapon camping" is mainly a symptom of poor map design and a poor weapon spawning system (remember Burial Mounds TS? lol)

 

[Digital Limit]

With a large enough population size and strict skill matching you would also get matched against players who know as little (or as much) about the game as you. You might get killed by rockets at the beginning due to the other team stumbling upon them, but you might also stumble upon them yourself.

The idea that static drops should be dropped in order to DECREASE the skill gap so it's more "fun" for the random casuals who play 1-5 games a month is laughable. If you're continually losing due to the opposition getting rockets, sniper, overshield, etc., eventually you will drop out of their skill matching "rank" and you can run around with AR starts on Hemorrhage with the other players who don't care to know more about the game than what the game obviously tells them via HUD or announcer.

Even then, folllowing the argument that "global ordnance is great and it should be kept" as it stands it is so convoluted and random that it is essentially 100% luck as to who gets a weapon and when. This, in my opinion, is even more frustrating than a team who has knowledge and experience and can exploit that knowledge. In the global ordnance scenario its random who gets what when. In the static drop there is an actual skill that can be learned, over time, to make you a better player. I prefer the method that rewards a dedicated player/fan instead of the method that rewards teams with power weapons and/or wins on a purely random basis.

Global ordnance done right doesn't benefit players randomly any more than King of the Hill's currently implementation benefits players randomly.

343 is doing this wrong, but Global Ordnance (non-random or random) done right is better than classic static weapon spawns.

 

[xxjuicesxx]

Even then, folllowing the argument that "global ordnance is great and it should be kept" as it stands it is so convoluted and random that it is essentially 100% luck as to who gets a weapon and when. This, in my opinion, is even more frustrating than a team who has knowledge and experience and can exploit that knowledge. In the global ordnance scenario its random who gets what when. In the static drop there is an actual skill that can be learned, over time, to make you a better player. I prefer the method that rewards a dedicated player/fan instead of the method that rewards teams with power weapons and/or wins on a purely random basis.

This is the lifeblood of Halo. Without this Halo does not truly exist. In the sense of "Halo" being a group of players fiending over an FPS because its so great, so competitive, so fun. LAN's cease to exist, competitive tournaments dwindle and sponsors are dropped, and casuals run amok, the Mayans have predicted this.

 

[Reagan's BR]

Why is Chief's head a stick and why is he holding a portal gun.

They are removing headshots from Halo 5.

 

[Syracuse022]

Why is Chief's head a stick and why is he holding a portal gun.

Chief's taking advantage of the headless Spartan glitch.

 

[TheOddOne]

You can set resupply times for Initial Ordnance. I guess they felt that the bases would be at too much of a disadvantage if a team was controlling hill and thus all the neutral power weapon spawns.

Yeah, that makes much more sense to me now. At first I felt that it conflicted with their new design, but some thought was put into it.

 

[Conor 419]

I still can't say I dislike the multiplayer in this game, for the most part it is pretty fun. It just tends to lack that edge that Halo 3 had.

 

[Digital Limit]

All the developer has to do is:

1. Use the classic weapon drop system
2. Show everyone where the weapons are before the map begins or while in the loading screen as juices suggested. Also have the weapon locations show up when you hold down the back button or something. Keep Halo 4's initial weapon indicators.

There you go. The noobs will always know where the weapons are and the veterans still dominate. Done.

Right, the point I'm making I suppose is this:

The old way Halo did weapon drops was poor for new players. The new way Halo does weapon drops is poor for everyone, but has some ideas that are great for new players. A system in between the old system and a not-flubbed new system is the dream.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

Why is Chief's head a stick and why is he holding a portal gun.

No idea, but he's about to beat his high score in REZ.

 

[Gabotron ES]

Wreckage: Ghosts everytime, everywhere.

 

[LD2k]

This is the lifeblood of Halo. Without this Halo does not truly exist. In the sense of "Halo" being a group of players fiending over an FPS because its so great, so competitive, so fun. LAN's cease to exist, competitive tournaments dwindle and sponsors are dropped, and casuals run amok, the Mayans have predicted this.

I 100% agree.

Game should have been rock vs rock. If I use my rock better, I should win."

:'(

 

[NullPointer]

Can we find one person that enjoys global ordnance? To at least justify 343's decision?

I don't mind it. But I would be fine with static ordnance with icons showing when/where they drop. Think that would be fine for new players and vets alike.

 

[IHaveIce]

Why is Chief's head a stick and why is he holding a portal gun.

Helmet off.

 

[Zoso Achilles]

Actually, veteran players would still have an advantage, just a lesser one.

Specific weapons still spawn at certain locations, it's just not determined. Like it has been discussed, Solace has two Sniper rifle spawn locations. Right side of either base. Rockets are Ring 1 on Abandon. Binary Rifles are on either side ramp on Haven. You can still hold these locations in advance at the hope that you'll get lucky.

It's different, but it doesn't warrant the derp coming off of your post.

And there's the rub. The derp coming off of my post? You're something else. 343 wanted to change the system so newer players have a clearly defined way of knowing where weapons are. Global Ordnance is not the correct answer, and you seem to understand this from all your posts so far on the matter. Like many have said, all they had to do was put the weapon indicators on the power weapons in the static spawning system maybe 10 seconds before they appear. Just take the system that was used in Halo gameplay since the beginning and add a feature that benefits all players, casuals most of all but certainly good players also. They completely scrapped that and made sure it's opaque for everyone. Yeah, you can find out the locations of weapon drops, but you have to hope that location is chosen for this round of drops, then you have to hope the desired weapon is also chosen. Unfortunately, none of this will be going anywhere since it's heavily tied into the perk system. Protect the casuals.

 

[FyreWulff]

Why is Chief's head a stick and why is he holding a portal gun.

Isn't that common in previs?

 

[Tawpgun]

I don't mind it. But I would be fine with static ordnance with icons showing when/where they drop. Think that would be fine for new players and vets alike.

Doesn't count.

I want to find someone who genuinely thinks global ordnance as its currently implemented is a better system than what Halo had previously.

A person that loves the new change and thinks it benefited the game.

 

[Gabotron ES]

Is there a classic mode in this game without the AAs and with static weapons spawns?

There's a modded gametype like this. No sprint and no instant respawns.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Right, the point I'm making I suppose is this:

The old way Halo did weapon drops was poor for new players. The new way Halo does weapon drops is poor for everyone, but has some ideas that are great for new players. A system in between the old system and a not-flubbed new system is the dream.

The old system wasn't poor, even for new players. New players would fight new players, and gradually learn maps and where things were through play. It's a system that's stood the test of time in the genre.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Isn't that common in previs?

Yes, and I'd say Ken knows this.

 

[Digital Limit]

Using a veteran/noob disparity is a poor example. The two should never be matched with each other, the progression should be organic as a team gets better and better and learns the spawns by virtue of playing. I get that matchmaking systems aren't perfect, but designing systems around a shitty skill matching algorithm? Eh.

I agree with your point, except what happens when myself (MLG pro) and my friend (first time with Halo) play together on the same team? Who are we matched with? Hopefully a team made up of a mirror terrible kid and great kid. Odds though is some average, where my friend is still disastrously outmatched, and struggles to grasp the flow or direction of the game.

And there's the issue when you're just playing customs or LAN. New players struggle even more there where a matchmaking system isn't helping them ease into the game. Halo's artificial barriers make classic, unmarked and unwarned weapon spawns overly beneficial to veterans.

I do think it's important to flatten the skill gap where it's needlessly hindering new players.

I dunno, I'm also just caught on the other end of a fight I'm not totally invested in. Frak Global Ordnance! Down with 343! RIP Halo! Feels good.

 

[zap]

Doesn't count.

I want to find someone who genuinely thinks global ordnance as its currently implemented is a better system than what Halo had previously.

A person that loves the new change and thinks it benefited the game.

I don't think that the people that benefit from this would understand the system (or changes) or even post on a message board

 

[WJD]

So I'm on a roll of games that I'm actually having quite a lot of fun with before shitty shitty netcode fucks everything up.

 

[Ken]

Yes, and I'd say Ken knows this.

Nope. I don't have any training or knowledge in professional art. I just like to doodle.

 

[NullPointer]

Doesn't count.

I want to find someone who genuinely thinks global ordnance as its currently implemented is a better system than what Halo had previously.

A person that loves the new change and thinks it benefited the game.

As it is right now? It is better than previous games because it is more approachable for new players. It just takes it too far, but for the wider audience it is better than what Halo had previously and leads to more dynamic, less predictable matches, as the rhythm isn't dictated by those drops, but those drops can still tilt the game one way or another, if they are taken advantage of. So yes, its better than nothing, and previous Halo games had nothing in the way of introducing players to map control and power weapon times and locations.

Static spawns or at least more balanced drops seem like a better approach though where you can cater to both sides of the argument.

 

[scar tissue]

Doesn't count.

I want to find someone who genuinely thinks global ordnance as its currently implemented is a better system than what Halo had previously.

A person that loves the new change and thinks it benefited the game.

I don't think anyone seriously likes the current system as a whole.

I like:
- the idea of weapons dropping down instead of materializing from thin air
- a certain degree of randomness, similar weapons spawning at one place (e.g. beam rifle spawning instead of sniper rifle, or rockets instead of incineration cannon, or scattershot/sword/shotgun), just the way it was in gears 2/3
- waypoints for weapons - although they should just always mark the spawning point. as it is, you see an icon (e.g. shotgun), run towards it and as it disappears you know that a guy with shotgun is around the corner and can grenade the shit out of him. that's not cool. if you hold back, you get an overlay and/or a map with the spawning points (again, gears 3 had it right), and that's it.


However, the randomness kills it. If I had to pick between Halo's classic weapon spawns and the current ordnance, I would choose classic in a heartbeat.

 

[dalVlatko]

Ok, so we're mid-match in Zanzibar and Rockets aren't top mid. When do they respawn?

Be careful, you've played two games on Zanzibar, you should have already honed the ability to know when Rockets were picked up, marked the time on the in-game clock you probably don't even realize exists, and are preparing yourself for the respawn in 3 minutes, right? Right?

This is assuming you've ever stumbled on those top-mid Rockets before a veteran of the game grabbed them and killed you with them. But you were already rushing top mid for those Rock—erm, well, someone would have told you they're there.

This is your first experience with the game, and if we are talking about Halo 2/3 it pretty much one of the first experiences with the game that every one else you are playing with. The rockets could have a giant waypoint above them with flashing lights and some players wouldn't be able to figure out how to get them (maybe a bread crumb trail to the rockets would help?)

Let's say you get killed by rockets. Your first reaction is likely "wtf, where did he get those?" so for the rest of the game you are going to be looking around for rockets or at least have them in the back of your mind. "wait, that guy up on that walkway just switched to rockets, maybe they are there? I'll go up there next chance I get" "hmm, my teammate just jumped down from the wheel and he has rockets"

In Halo 2 and 3 most gametypes had you spawn with short ranged weapons (SMG, AR), if you were making those games right now would you put waypoints and countdown timers above the BR locations on every map? Or would you assume that players would eventually realize that there are effective long ranged weapons scattered around the map that need to be utilized in order to perform better after some experience with the game?

 

[Digital Limit]

Doesn't count.

I want to find someone who genuinely thinks global ordnance as its currently implemented is a better system than what Halo had previously.

A person that loves the new change and thinks it benefited the game.

That'll be hard to find.

 

[Jack Scofield]

Do you even play BF3? Winning a match is often 100% contingent on map knowledge. Oh, you didn't know you could climb cranes? You didn't know you could jump out of helicopters on top of a building? You didn't know where the other team would get spawn trapped? You don't know the most advantageous spaces to plant C4, clyamores, or how to use mortars?

No dude, Halo is the only FPS game ever that requires map knowledge.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Nope. I don't have any training or knowledge in art.

Neither do I, it just comes out a lot.
Sorry for the assumption .

 

[Tawpgun]

As it is right now? It is better than previous games because it is more approachable for new players. It just takes it too far, but for the wider audience it is better than what Halo had previously and leads to more dynamic, less predictable matches, as the rhythm isn't dictated by those drops, but those drops can still tilt the game one way or another, if they are taken advantage of.

Static spawns or at least more balanced drops seem like a better balanced approach though.

How exactly is it more approachable though?

New players went from not knowing where the fuck weapons are spawning to not knowing where the fuck weapons are spawning.

If a NEW player is playing an experienced player hes gonna get donged on anyway. If its new player vs new player than neither one of them knows whats going on.


I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

[Karl2177]

I think Havok is right about an internal weighting per weapon. I'm in a game where all of the random ordnance is grouped together. The Needler drop count is equal to the Scattershot and Sticky Detonator combined, when the Random Drop object in Forge has them all taking up one slot. My theory is that it picks a random drop and then a random weapon based on an internal weighting.

I'm gonna do a couple more game tests to see what happens. I set the minimum random drop to 15 seconds and the maximum to 15 seconds as well. Also to note, the ordnance won't go away until you pick the weapon up.

 

[Digital Limit]

In Halo 2 and 3 most gametypes had you spawn with short ranged weapons (SMG, AR), if you were making those games right now would you put waypoints and countdown timers above the BR locations on every map? Or would you assume that players would eventually realize that there are effective long ranged weapons scattered around the map that need to be utilized in order to perform better after some experience with the game?

That's why loadouts are amazing. Halo doing away with the initial and desperate mid-level weapon hunt is a huge step up for the series.

Maps should never have more than around 10 ordnance on it at any time (typically only at the start of the game, and rarely upwards of even half that thereafter).

I never want to think, "Ugh, who took all the BRs?" ever again. That shit was dumb.

 

[NullPointer]

New players went from not knowing where the fuck weapons are spawning to not knowing where the fuck weapons are spawning.

Hahah - this is true.

But now they know that a rocket launcher is on the field and where to find it. Or the spartan laser, etc. Its immediate. You don't have to play a bunch of matches on the same map to determine these things - its immediate no matter the map. It certainly ins't perfect, but in the narrow constraint of your question I do think its preferable to classic Halo, for new players or those who haven't played enough Halo previously for the concepts behind map control to stick.

From reading the multiplayer designer interview in the strategy guide it seems like their goals involved bringing new players into the fold without discouraging them so quickly, but it was also to try and make matches undecided until the late game - so you have more of this Mario Kart red shell philosophy at work.

 

[Duji]

That's why loadouts are amazing. Halo doing away with the initial and desperate mid-level weapon hunt is a huge step up for the series.

Maps should never have more than around 10 ordnance on it at any time (typically only at the start of the game, and rarely upwards of even half that thereafter).

I never want to think, "Ugh, who took all the BRs?" ever again. That shit was dumb.

Or we could have simply started with BRs.

 

[HigherLevel]

Or we could have simply started with BRs.

lol, things that make sense like this are never what happens

 

[Digital Limit]

Or we could have simply started with BRs.

But what about my AR? Carbine? DMR? Light Rifle? Secondaries?

Hunting for weapons isn't fun. Fighting over a weapon—much like a hill—is fun.

Having a map covered with mid-level weapons that you have to hunt for sucks.

 

[kittens]

After that +29 game I played the other day, I find myself really wanting to play some more Halo 4. Let's see if lightning strikes twice. (Insert FF13 joke here.) Hopping on now.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Invasion Slayer and Skirmish used the waypointed warning drop system and it was a clusterfuck. So I would refer anyone who thinks that it would be good to that shitty gametype.

Those gametypes dumped a bunch of weapons and vehicles into a circle after capturing a territory and waiting through a countdown. If I were to rehaul the ordnance system:

1. Work out the fucking bugs. Waypoints don't show up all the time? Fix it. Pair of plasma grenades reports as a Spartan LASER? Fix that shit! The fact that Halo 4 still behaves this way after release and two Title Updates is UNACCEPTABLLLLLLLLE! You don't ship a new weapon spawning system if it's broken.

2. Don't make weapon spawns random, either leave them static, or make them dynamic, i.e. calculate neutral positions for weapon spawns and notify all players where they will be at the same time.

3. Spawning one weapon in this way just means a pile up. Why can't we drop 5 new weapons at 09:00 remaining, as in the initial spawn (why is it acceptable for initial but not subsequent drops)? Why not spawn Loadout weapons for ammo replenishment or weapon swapping?

 

[dalVlatko]

That's why loadouts are amazing. Halo doing away with the initial and desperate mid-level weapon hunt is a huge step up for the series.

Maps should never have more than around 10 ordnance on it at any time (typically only at the start of the game, and rarely upwards of even half that thereafter).

I never want to think, "Ugh, who took all the BRs?" ever again. That shit was dumb.

If you didn't want to hunt for BRs, then you played with BR starts

But what about my AR? Carbine? DMR? Light Rifle? Secondaries?

In Halo 4 you choose one and never have to think about using any of the others again (hint: choose the DMR)

is that better than sometimes being stuck with any of them temporarily?

 

[Fuchsdh]

If you didn't want to hunt for BRs, then you played with BR starts

And now you've got the start of your dreams.

 

[scar tissue]

But what about my AR? Carbine? DMR? Light Rifle? Secondaries?

Hunting for weapons isn't fun. Fighting over a weapon—much like a hill—is fun.

Having a map covered with mid-level weapons that you have to hunt for sucks.

yeah, loadouts are glorious. if only the carbine and lr were actually useful. i really like how there is less than 5 pieces of ordnance on the map now, makes the game feel more focused.
dmr should be 2x zoom or ordnance though. waaaaay OP as a spawning weapon.