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Halo |OT15| Beta-tested, GAF approved

Ordnance Wars: Halo Evolved

But seriously, Retro Evolved 1 was the shit. Even if the second one isn't as good I'm still enjoying it because it's Geometry Wars.

Oh 2 wasn't a bad game by any stretch. I mostly played King/Sequence when I was still active on the leaderboards. Both games still have a thriving close-knit competitive community and people are posting insane new highs on the reg. I wish I still had the free time to go for a new high in the first game but I don't have 30+ hours of real-time to devote to that anymore, even if I spread it out over like a week or two. Still play no-bomb games for fun though. So much zen when I play, it's just so good.

Maybe I'll stream tonight if my Halo peeps aren't on.

Just saw your video and all I have to say goddamn.

haha thanks bro. I have an old montage that was floating around on Google Video back in the day.
 

stephen08

Member
Oh, this argument again.

1. The K/D/A ranking system was godawful. I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on that.
2. Most of the people that would play for ranks were long gone by the time the W/L system was implemented.
3. Bloom.

Arena had some problems, sure. Even when they were fixed though most people abandoned Arena in favor of other non-ranked games.

Regardless though, what's the problem with new system then? The only problem I see is that it is inconvenient to pull up a rank on another device instead of just in the game. But let's say they made it visible in the lobby but only you could see your rank. Is that still a problem?
 

Shadders

Member
Okay, that should be fine then.

It just sounded so.. scammy

It really did! I'm so untrusting of any emails these days. My bank called the other day asking why I hadn't responded to their emails, I had to laugh and asked them never to email me again. Who trusts an email that says it's from a bank?
 

Havok

Member
The ranks in Halo 2-3 never worked properly anyway. They relied way too much on the team winning and not enough on the individual stats of the player. If you're gonna do stats that represent the player, it shouldn't matter that much whether he wins or loses. Ive often had great games on losing teams and my rank would never go up because of that. Thats not representative of how good i am as a player and it isnt my problem if the rest of the team cant keep up.

First, let them come up with a ranking system that works properly.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that led to the launch Arena rating/ranking system, which was a hot pile of garbage. The team's performance is literally the only thing that matters because it was, for the majority of its life, a team playlist. That's why there was a separate Arena FFA for people that only cared about their own performance, but nobody gave a shit because the settings were awful (that goes for both Arena playlists, for that matter - it is not a good example of players not caring about rank, it's a good example of horrible gametype settings ruining what could have been a really cool thing). All individual ratings did was encourage you to screw over your teammates by letting them die and mopping up their kill, or sitting back and padding your ratio instead of playing in service of the team. It was, and still is, a horribly shortsighted line of thinking that doesn't take into account the asshole nature of players. Arena was orders of magnitude better once they switched to a team win/loss ranking system. Unfortunately, it was still plagued by a terrible map pool and gametypes that weren't suited to competitive play (mediocre Forge maps and jetpack!), so nobody cared.

As for the instant gratification, I'd personally take a more accurate representation of my skill by being forced to jump through the daily rating hoops than have to grind up through the first meaningless 30 or 35 levels like Halo 3 TS until I finally hit the point where enemies could actually hit the broad side of a barn. There's something to be said for a system that reacts and responds quickly, but that doesn't mean that 1-50 was the right way to do it (there's a reason that Starcraft uses the ladder system that it does).
 

Omni

Member
1. Conor 419
2. Arnie
3. Silly.Mikey
4. Mormapope
5. Mystery Guest
6. Kamikaze Ghazi
7. StalkerUKCG
8. Monsterfracas
9. IHaveIce GT = IHaveAnIce
10. DeadNames
11. Foxtrot
12. Devolution
13. Redford
14. TCKaos
15. Madness
16. Kittens

+ Available if Space

1. versatil7
2.gAg CruSh3r
3. randomrosso93
4.
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Undecided atm, I'll try and find out when everyone's free.

Just throwing my name in here....
I'll chuck my name in too
Halo 4 still enables you to mute players. I don't see why that can't be put to use.

O wow, I think I solved Frankie's e-peen problem.
Ignorance doesn't solve the elitism that is apparent when ranks are introduced and are visible in-game (or more accurately, in lobby)
 

Cow

Member
One of the main reason Arena didn't work is that it didn't give the instant gratification that you got from the 1-50 system, seeing my skill tick up or down instantly after a game kept me playing.
 
It really did! I'm so untrusting of any emails these days. My bank called the other day asking why I hadn't responded to their emails, I had to laugh and asked them never to email me again. Who trusts an email that says it's from a bank?

Id rather my bank email me than put an automatic block on international payments so my expected orders don't get shipped and then even when they told me it was removed it was not.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
This is exactly the kind of thinking that led to the launch Arena rating/ranking system, which was a hot pile of garbage. The team's performance is literally the only thing that matters because it was, for the majority of its life, a team playlist. That's why there was a separate Arena FFA for people that only cared about their own performance, but nobody gave a shit because the settings were awful (that goes for both Arena playlists, for that matter - it is not a good example of players not caring about rank, it's a good example of horrible gametype settings ruining what could have been a really cool thing). All individual ratings did was encourage you to screw over your teammates by letting them die and mopping up their kill, or sitting back and padding your ratio instead of playing in service of the team. It was, and still is, a horribly shortsighted line of thinking that doesn't take into account the asshole nature of players. Arena was orders of magnitude better once they switched to a team win/loss ranking system. Unfortunately, it was still plagued by a terrible map pool and gametypes that weren't suited to competitive play (mediocre Forge maps and jetpack!), so nobody cared.

"Spoken like a true prodigy"
 
One of the main reason Arena didn't work is that it didn't give the instant gratification that you got from the 1-50 system, seeing my skill tick up or down instantly after a game kept me playing.

But you could often win and it wouldn't budge which was frustrating especially if you were to lose the next one and drop down.
 
This is exactly the kind of thinking that led to the launch Arena rating/ranking system, which was a hot pile of garbage. The team's performance is literally the only thing that matters because it was, for the majority of its life, a team playlist. That's why there was a separate Arena FFA for people that only cared about their own performance, but nobody gave a shit because the settings were awful (that goes for both Arena playlists, for that matter - it is not a good example of players not caring about rank, it's a good example of horrible gametype settings ruining what could have been a really cool thing). All individual ratings did was encourage you to screw over your teammates by letting them die and mopping up their kill, or sitting back and padding your ratio instead of playing in service of the team. It was, and still is, a horribly shortsighted line of thinking that doesn't take into account the asshole nature of players. Arena was orders of magnitude better once they switched to a team win/loss ranking system. Unfortunately, it was still plagued by a terrible map pool and gametypes that weren't suited to competitive play (mediocre Forge maps and jetpack!), so nobody cared.

As for the instant gratification, I'd personally take a more accurate representation of my skill than have to grind up through the first meaningless 30 or 35 levels like Halo 3 TS until I finally hit the point where enemies could actually hit the broad side of a barn.

Doesnt matter if you just mop up kills. Theres a difference between getting a kill from start to finish and one shotting a guy to finish him off. If they were smart, they would have accounted for that and it would be a non issue.
 

Duji

Member
Arena had some problems, sure. Even when they were fixed though most people abandoned Arena in favor of other non-ranked games.

I already explained that... Refer to #2.

Regardless though, what's the problem with new system then? The only problem I see is that it is inconvenient to pull up a rank on another device instead of just in the game. But let's say they made it visible in the lobby but only you could see your rank. Is that still a problem?
Yes, technically it is the only problem. It's a huge problem, though. I don't know why you're downplaying it.

And if only you could see your rank, hm. I suppose it depends on whether or not they show the overall leaderboards somewhere.
 
Christ, HaloGAF. I come back from work and you guys have shit the bed, the stairwell, the dinner table and the fucking attic over news we were all expecting.

If you want to know, PM me. I don't like answering when people ask in threads.

This is a bizarre insecurity.

Also, I figured out a revolutionary way to revise the UI for custom game options. Stay tuned.
 

orznge

Banned
I really dislike the "tone of discourse" whenever Frankie refers to those who want ranks. In that one live Eurogamer Q&A before H4 launched he said that "there will be something for those obsessed about their rank" and now he's using words like "e-peens". Really? Can we not just be regular guys who want more of a reason to play the game instead of being a bunch of nerds obsessed with comparing e-peens? Am I the only one disturbed by Frankie's choice of words regarding this whole thing?

it's bad to compete for a number but it's good to unlock a bunch of stupid visual shit for your self-insert spaceman lol
 

Havok

Member
Doesnt matter if you just mop up kills. Theres a difference between getting a kill from start to finish and one shotting a guy to finish him off. If they were smart, they would have accounted for that and it would be a non issue.
If you really don't see the problem with a system encouraging players to prioritize their own performance over that of the team's in a team playlist, then I don't think anything I'm going to say is going to convince you.
 
I really dislike the "tone of discourse" whenever Frankie refers to those who want ranks. In that one live Eurogamer Q&A before H4 launched he said that "there will be something for those obsessed about their rank" and now he's using words like "e-peens". Really? Can we not just be regular guys who want more of a reason to play the game instead of being a bunch of nerds obsessed with comparing e-peens? Am I the only one disturbed by Frankie's choice of words regarding this whole thing?

Quite frankly, it's messed up. Isn't that the same tone/language he complained about?
 

orznge

Banned
Arena had some problems, sure. Even when they were fixed though most people abandoned Arena in favor of other non-ranked games.

Regardless though, what's the problem with new system then? The only problem I see is that it is inconvenient to pull up a rank on another device instead of just in the game. But let's say they made it visible in the lobby but only you could see your rank. Is that still a problem?

by the time Arena was fixed I had already sold the game; I didn't like playing against my own team and I certainly didn't like that Slayer Pro was removed from the playlist and there was no indication that either was going to change
 
If you really don't see the problem with encouraging players to prioritize their own performance over that of the team's in a team playlist, then I don't think anything I'm going to say is going to convince you.

Nothing in life is like that whether you look at business or sports. Nothing. Team concept is done by the people who wanna do it and believe in it. There is no magical solution you code to promote it. If you dont get that then good luck to you.
 

orznge

Banned
Nothing in life is like that whether you look at business or sports. Nothing. Team concept is done by the people who wanna do it and believe in it. There is no magical solution you code to promote it. If you dont get that then good luck to you.

increasing a player's rating in a team playlist based on whether their team wins or loses encourages people to do "team concept"
 

orznge

Banned
Most the population dont even know how the system works. Are you joking.

so what? they're still on the receiving end of my nades if they have a power weapon and they've already been hit by an enemy

edit: also you're out of your mind if you think people didn't know winning was good for their rating and losing was bad for their rating in H2/H3
 
so what? they're still on the receiving end of my nades if they have a power weapon and they've already been hit by an enemy

Doesnt change the fact that if most if the people dont know how it works, theyll just go about what their regular behaviour is. Code whatever u want, doesnt change that.
 

Duji

Member
by the time Arena was fixed I had already sold the game; I didn't like playing against my own team and I certainly didn't like that Slayer Pro was removed from the playlist and there was no indication that either was going to change

Arena was horrid when played at a higher level even after the W/L fix. Seriously, were any of the play-testers even half decent?

Watch top 1% Onyx gameplay and prepare to fucking lol. Be sure to watch some top level Quake gameplay afterwards to help cure the cancer that you'll get.
 

orznge

Banned
Doesnt change the fact that if most if the people dont know how it works, theyll just go about what their regular behaviour is. Code whatever u want, doesnt change that.

so what you're saying is a large percentage of players in Halo 2 and 3 were not aware that winning made their rating increase and losing made it decrease?
 

orznge

Banned
Halo Reach the famous entry in the Halo series of video games which brought fans modern classics such as Sword Base and The Cage
 

orznge

Banned
I'm fucking amazed that you're going to sit here and continue to argue that the entire game should be changed on the grounds that "the IGN forums needed to school me on the complex Bungie ranking system" when, in reality, they could just like, put a single paragraph on the screen or something lol
 

stephen08

Member
I already explained that... Refer to #2.


Yes, technically it is the only problem. It's a huge problem, though. I don't know why you're downplaying it.

And if only you could see your rank, hm. I suppose it depends on whether or not they show the overall leaderboards somewhere.

What I am getting at here is that designing games is a balancing act where you are trying to cater to multiple playstyles. This doesn't just apply to the actual gameplay but ancillary stuff like the UI and things like that. Some people don't care about people not quitting, or playing harder or whatever. It's all about having a symbol next to their name that they can say 'I am better than you'. There is no reason whatsoever to encourage this kind of behavior in the population at large. That was the whole reason for Arena existing but its failure while the rest of Reach carried on showed clearly that the amount of people who care about where they fall within the population was low.

You can make excuses about people leaving or bloom or whatever but none of those would have changed the fact that the people playing Reach didn't care enough about Arena. They didn't when the settings were the same as the rest, and they didn't once it got more competitive settings. Halo 3 had similar issues that didn't distract from ranked. People could still camp with Maulers, or still throw down a regen. People cared so much that they would willingly make new accounts just for another crack at ranking up. Or try to lose/quit out of a bunch of games to slingshot themselves to a higher rank. People would manipulate the network to kick the opposing team out of the match. It promoted some of the worst behavior in multiplayer.

Putting a Halo 3 level of importance on ranks would be a mistake. Making them playlist specific and only visible in that playlist was the Reach approach and it failed. It failed because people no longer cared.
 
I'm fucking amazed that you're going to sit here and continue to argue that the entire game should be changed on the grounds that "the IGN forums needed to school me on the complex Bungie ranking system" when, in reality, they could just like, put a single paragraph on the screen or something lol

Could should would, they didnt.
 
Well its 2 or 3, its been a while, but i remember having to win a certain amount of games to rank up.

It all depended on who you beat as well as your current rank. It wasn't a set number. Man, I'm getting flashbacks of Bungie.net having actual bars indicating how far away your next rank was. Man, that was so difficult to look at and understand.
 

orznge

Banned
Could should would, they didnt.

honestly there's not going to be a simple enough game for you until 343 harnesses technology that taps directly into your brain and imparts all of the arcane knowledge needed to compete

it's a shame too because until that happens the masses of downtrodden confused dummies buying the game are going to have to keep learning through harsh, bootcamp-style learning techniques such as "playing a handful of matches"
 

Blissful

Neo Member
What I am getting at here is that designing games is a balancing act where you are trying to cater to multiple playstyles. This doesn't just apply to the actual gameplay but ancillary stuff like the UI and things like that. Some people don't care about people not quitting, or playing harder or whatever. It's all about having a symbol next to their name that they can say 'I am better than you'. There is no reason whatsoever to encourage this kind of behavior in the population at large. That was the whole reason for Arena existing but its failure while the rest of Reach carried on showed clearly that the amount of people who care about where they fall within the population was low.

You can make excuses about people leaving or bloom or whatever but none of those would have changed the fact that the people playing Reach didn't care enough about Arena. They didn't when the settings were the same as the rest, and they didn't once it got more competitive settings. Halo 3 had similar issues that didn't distract from ranked. People could still camp with Maulers, or still throw down a regen. People cared so much that they would willingly make new accounts just for another crack at ranking up. Or try to lose/quit out of a bunch of games to slingshot themselves to a higher rank. People would manipulate the network to kick the opposing team out of the match. It promoted some of the worst behavior in multiplayer.

Putting a Halo 3 level of importance on ranks would be a mistake. Making them playlist specific and only visible in that playlist was the Reach approach and it failed. It failed because people no longer cared.

People cared. It just did not get the same amount of attention other playlists had in terms of an update. Arena was barley updated and players would have to wait ages until one came along. Also, it took forever for Bungie to change back to having it based on pure W/L.
 

orznge

Banned
excuse me everyone while I argue with a guy with the Heath Ledger joker avatar about serious topics such as "does the average player know that winning is good and losing is bad?" until I'm out of breath
 
honestly there's not going to be a simple enough game for you until 343 harnesses technology that taps directly into the player's brain and imparts all of the arcane knowledge needed to compete on them

it's a shame too because until that happens the masses of downtrodden confused dummies buying the game are going to have to keep learning through harsh, bootcamp-style learning techniques such as "playing a handful of matches"

Its very simple, sports do this already. All of them. They use players individual statistics to rate how good they are. Players on bad teams are still considered good players. Players who win championships usually have a very good team concept and dept and it doesnt need to be coded into them like the mattix. If GMs and coaches can figure this out, so can brainiac coders.
 

orznge

Banned
Its very simple, sports do this already. All of them. They use players individual statistics to rate how good they are. Players on bad teams are still considered good players. Players who win championships usually have a very good team concept and dept and it doesnt need to be coded into them like the mattix. If GMs and coaches can figure this out, so can brainiac coders.

if I'm ranked individually why shouldn't I foul my own teammate and hog the ball over my "teammates" that might have a better shot?

what I'm saying is that, if I am ranked individually, I will game the system to the maximum possible extent regardless of it ruining any of my teammates' experience
 
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