Icyflamez96
Member
Ratchet and Clank Up Your Arsenal came out soooo
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Have we reached the pinnacle of gaming design?
- Thread starter CurseoftheGods
- Start date
toddhunter
Member
We haven't even got close to the games released in 1992.
When shooters have depth again, when rpgs have npcs with job schedules, when open world means persistent and interactive?
Then we can start talking about pinnacles again.
When shooters have depth again, when rpgs have npcs with job schedules, when open world means persistent and interactive?
Then we can start talking about pinnacles again.
There is no 'pinnacle.' What you see is the evolutionary dead end of where the current path of 'refinement' and iteration has brought us. The widespread notion that there is a 'correct' way to design a game on a per-genre basis that has been cultivated by weeding out all the so-called outdated and archaic ideas over the last few decades instead of exploring other possibilities. As long as this notion persists this industry won't go anywhere.
I'm still discovering and playing games from 20-30 years ago that do brilliant things that I've never seen before, yet have never been replicated or iterated upon.
I'm still discovering and playing games from 20-30 years ago that do brilliant things that I've never seen before, yet have never been replicated or iterated upon.
So much of modern game design is still stuck in the "Skinner Box" mentality.
That is, you push a button, you get a reward.
To me, Rust proved just how much potential we still have yet to uncover. I hope games of the future will exploit interesting facets of human psychology, such as group dynamics, mob mentality, and the nature of trust. This seems much more exciting than the "Haunted House" tram-ride so prominent in games today.
That is, you push a button, you get a reward.
To me, Rust proved just how much potential we still have yet to uncover. I hope games of the future will exploit interesting facets of human psychology, such as group dynamics, mob mentality, and the nature of trust. This seems much more exciting than the "Haunted House" tram-ride so prominent in games today.
If the real question is "are devs out of ideas for new kinds of games?" Yes. Even indies just fall back on the same tired 2D side scroller junk that was popular in the 80s most of the time.
I'd like to be optimistic, but i can't really be. More hardware isnt going to change the types of games that come out until mindsets themselves change. Having "more" of something isn't revolution, its evolution
I'd like to be optimistic, but i can't really be. More hardware isnt going to change the types of games that come out until mindsets themselves change. Having "more" of something isn't revolution, its evolution
MajinSweet4
Member
Not even close. Many genres have been stagnant for a long time, while others play it safe using the same mediocre mechanics for multiple sequels. If you watch the indie space you can still see a lot of glimmers of new ideas. If the resurgence of mid tier games continues, I think we;ll see a lot more revolutionary games on the forefront of things again.
Or they might pull a God of War III and play their best hand in the first 15 minutes of the game (Poseidon and Leviathan), and then end the game with a human-sized enemy (Zeus).
Icyflamez96
Member
No Man's Sky has yet to come out
MAX PAYMENT
Member
I'm on an n64 kick right now. It seems we are moving away from the pinnacle as I'm enjoying n64 games (some of which I've never played before) far more than anything I've played in a good while.
adamantypants
Member
This is the real answer.
However, there are two sides to this. If game AI became too good the games would become less fun. I remember hearing that MGS Ground Zeroes had to be dumbed down a bit because the AI was too unpredictable.
We really haven't. Even looking back to older games there are still roads that have not been taken in the industry that can be learned from and expanded on. The issue is more of the lack of motivation and how controlling publishers are with trends.
There are always more untraveled roads to take, you just have to take a moment to look around.
There are always more untraveled roads to take, you just have to take a moment to look around.
That someone can genuinely think games have gotten better every decade? Sorry but interactive media does not work the same way as paintings and books do. Some of my favorite books are from before I was born. Interactive media is in its infancy and has gotten better every decade, you can argue that, but to believe so is not being a snob. Your comment however was. Congrats. And by the way your comment is just full of massive contradictions and assumptions, good luck with your opinion piece.
Hmmm...
In one sense, yes. In one sense, no.
Game design (this object needs to be here for this reason, and this character needs to do this for this reason, and things need to progress in this way for this reason, and this mechanic needs to balance out this enemy's attack, etc.) has been worked out a long time ago. Are games released today truly and significantly better than, say, Super Metroid from a game design stand point? I don't think so.
What's really happening is that the technological design is progressing. This makes it seem like game design is progressing, when in reality we're still doing similar things that we were doing years ago, and while sometimes it's done better, many times it isn't. I mean, look at Shovel Knight. It's one of the most well designed games last year and it simply follows the design formula of 8-bit games. It doesn't even surpass those games in every way. It simply sits along side them as a great, well designed game.
Now, I should mention that everything I'm talking about is genre specific. You can't possible reach the pinnacle of game design itself because everything is divided into genres, and you can't have one genre be considered the pinnacle of an entire medium. And new genres could pop up at any moment (though the odds of that are slim). That said, within certain genres, they've essentially been solved and have reached their peak a long time ago, and everything we get now is just a tweak on that tried and true game design.
In one sense, yes. In one sense, no.
Game design (this object needs to be here for this reason, and this character needs to do this for this reason, and things need to progress in this way for this reason, and this mechanic needs to balance out this enemy's attack, etc.) has been worked out a long time ago. Are games released today truly and significantly better than, say, Super Metroid from a game design stand point? I don't think so.
What's really happening is that the technological design is progressing. This makes it seem like game design is progressing, when in reality we're still doing similar things that we were doing years ago, and while sometimes it's done better, many times it isn't. I mean, look at Shovel Knight. It's one of the most well designed games last year and it simply follows the design formula of 8-bit games. It doesn't even surpass those games in every way. It simply sits along side them as a great, well designed game.
Now, I should mention that everything I'm talking about is genre specific. You can't possible reach the pinnacle of game design itself because everything is divided into genres, and you can't have one genre be considered the pinnacle of an entire medium. And new genres could pop up at any moment (though the odds of that are slim). That said, within certain genres, they've essentially been solved and have reached their peak a long time ago, and everything we get now is just a tweak on that tried and true game design.
SuperEpicGuy
Banned
What would be considered revolutionary? I haven't had anything impress me that much apart from graphics in some games ever since I started gaming 3 years ago. The last thing to impress me really was grow home on my 3d projector. That shit was glorious.
Not to say there weren't great games with great mechanics, it's just that there was nothing revolutionary.
I guess that VR is coming out but I don't see it taking off that much. Trust me, I'd love to play all my games on an oculus but it's pretty unrealistic to expect mass adoption. Hell, people are too damn lazy to put on 3d glasses to play games in 1 extra dimension so no way they'd buy an oculus for a couple of games. I still play in 3d and will get oculus anyway seeing as I love those kinds of things.
Not to say there weren't great games with great mechanics, it's just that there was nothing revolutionary.
I guess that VR is coming out but I don't see it taking off that much. Trust me, I'd love to play all my games on an oculus but it's pretty unrealistic to expect mass adoption. Hell, people are too damn lazy to put on 3d glasses to play games in 1 extra dimension so no way they'd buy an oculus for a couple of games. I still play in 3d and will get oculus anyway seeing as I love those kinds of things.
old manatee
Banned
I'm playing Call Of Duty Advanced Warfare on PC and the laser damage is tied to frame rate, so people with a better PC do more damage. Shit is the dark ages.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Ugh, it still hurts knowing they had planned a triple threat match with Gaia originally.
GloriousBagel
Banned
Monster Monpiece is a thing, so yes we have reached the pinnacle of game design.
I see no reason why not
ps gen gave us 3d
ps2 gen gave up open world
ps3 gen gave us cover/cinematic tpses
im sure this gen will give us something. Of course if youre going to be restrictive on what you consider good gaming/ design then yes . Within a restricted set of constructs there can only be so much iteration.
ps gen gave us 3d
ps2 gen gave up open world
ps3 gen gave us cover/cinematic tpses
im sure this gen will give us something. Of course if youre going to be restrictive on what you consider good gaming/ design then yes . Within a restricted set of constructs there can only be so much iteration.
IndoAssassin
Banned
Probably. we've probably tapped into all forms of gameplay we can that current the current way of playing video games allows. Theonly thing we can hope.for is devs will actually refine these gameplay elements better.
Maybe allow your character to actually get injured (injured arm makes it harder to aim hold your gun steadily. Injured leg your character limps. Pain from injury causes vision to blur from moment to moment. Same applies to enemy characters)
Maybe we can have more realistic npc's going about their busy lives. Maybe have worlds that actually feel lived in. (In GTA I can follow an npc all day and they will goto work a store to shop, hangout in the park, go home for dinner, watch tv, goto sleep, play with their kids etc. Actually do some realistic things in their daily lives.)
Characters with nice animation, it's been maybe 20 years of 3d graphics and the animations are still jerky most of the time.
We can always have better AI in games. Only a very minute amount get the AI good.
As for what nextgen gameplay means, I have no idea man. I've been trying to think what can be done to make the gameplay innovative, and the only thing I can think of is having destructible environments as strategic tactics incorporated into the gameplay.
But I guess R6 Seige is bringing that to the forefront. However it's only mulytiplayer.
So I don't know whatelse can be done other than finding unique ways of mixing genres, or if another way we physically control the games we play comes to fruition.
Maybe allow your character to actually get injured (injured arm makes it harder to aim hold your gun steadily. Injured leg your character limps. Pain from injury causes vision to blur from moment to moment. Same applies to enemy characters)
Maybe we can have more realistic npc's going about their busy lives. Maybe have worlds that actually feel lived in. (In GTA I can follow an npc all day and they will goto work a store to shop, hangout in the park, go home for dinner, watch tv, goto sleep, play with their kids etc. Actually do some realistic things in their daily lives.)
Characters with nice animation, it's been maybe 20 years of 3d graphics and the animations are still jerky most of the time.
We can always have better AI in games. Only a very minute amount get the AI good.
As for what nextgen gameplay means, I have no idea man. I've been trying to think what can be done to make the gameplay innovative, and the only thing I can think of is having destructible environments as strategic tactics incorporated into the gameplay.
But I guess R6 Seige is bringing that to the forefront. However it's only mulytiplayer.
So I don't know whatelse can be done other than finding unique ways of mixing genres, or if another way we physically control the games we play comes to fruition.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I feel we've reach the pinnacle of what a traditional controller can offer us. There's no blood left to squeeze from that stone.
The next evolution will come from a non traditional controller/accessory. Be it VR, Hololens, Kinect, the WiiU gamepad or something else completely.
The next evolution will come from a non traditional controller/accessory. Be it VR, Hololens, Kinect, the WiiU gamepad or something else completely.
Final Verdict
Member
Think there is still a lot of room for innovation, the VG industry is very young, and has a long ways to go
TheChewyWaffles
Member
We need more Minecraft type games but coupled together in a shared world.
CurseoftheGods
Banned
I think this is it, really.
IndoAssassin
Banned
Check out medieval engineers
I think the last "revolution" in gaming will be when someone perceives themselves to be in a photorealistic environment with all of their senses confirming that, when they are in fact not. Ala the Holodeck or The Matrix. And also AI that makes you believe they could be real people.
Until those come around, there's always room for new crazy advances.
Until those come around, there's always room for new crazy advances.
Weaving micro-transactions into more and more games might stunt the development of game design a bit.
Maybe at one point a dev was deciding if adding secrets between dungeons might help with the games pacing. And then suddenly that's a bad idea, not because it didn't address the issue correctly, but rather heart containers should be restricted to IAP because that makes more financial sense.
Maybe at one point a dev was deciding if adding secrets between dungeons might help with the games pacing. And then suddenly that's a bad idea, not because it didn't address the issue correctly, but rather heart containers should be restricted to IAP because that makes more financial sense.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
God no don't start this. Please. Don't The Order No Man's Sky.
I'd like to think there are numerous genres of games that haven't been conceived yet.
EventHorizon
Member
As pointed out VR will reset the clock on game innovation.
Beyond that I think that AI and procedural content generation are going to be a source for new types of game by removing the restriction on the amount of content in games and replacing it with a restriction on the types of content in games. The old tropes of opening every crate and searching every spot on a map will go away because developers will no longer have to stretch out their content. Improved AI will make single player games feel more like online games, but with better skill matching, no griefing, and without all the other downsides that come with online playing.
Beyond that I think that AI and procedural content generation are going to be a source for new types of game by removing the restriction on the amount of content in games and replacing it with a restriction on the types of content in games. The old tropes of opening every crate and searching every spot on a map will go away because developers will no longer have to stretch out their content. Improved AI will make single player games feel more like online games, but with better skill matching, no griefing, and without all the other downsides that come with online playing.
What do you mean by that?
7DollarHagane
Banned
It's not something that's for everybody and it was around for a long time before getting huge but DOTA could be seen as a revolutionary design.
The same with all the phone games that are so popular. They are revolutionary but in somewhat insidious, evil way.
As for genuinely unique "traditional gaming" ideas.. yeah its been a while.
I think Resident Evil 4 shaped a lot of what the PS3/360 generation became.
And I think Skyrim and Assassin's Creed are shaping a lot of what the PS4/XBOne generation is becoming.
The same with all the phone games that are so popular. They are revolutionary but in somewhat insidious, evil way.
As for genuinely unique "traditional gaming" ideas.. yeah its been a while.
I think Resident Evil 4 shaped a lot of what the PS3/360 generation became.
And I think Skyrim and Assassin's Creed are shaping a lot of what the PS4/XBOne generation is becoming.
toddhunter
Member
Sorry but people being out of ideas is complete rubbish.
People only making what sells (Including indies with 2d scrollers)? Absolutely. But that is a completely different issue.
If people stopped buying the mediocrity that is produced today you would see a lot more variety as developers put some effort in again and the people controlling the dollars would play along. Until then you will just get the same old shit.
Karsticles
Member
I have at least 5 ideas that haven't been done by anyone that would make for amazing and fresh experiences. Gameplay unlike anything else.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Don't subtly place unfair/unrealistic expectations on a game that on face value, doesn't appear to be doing anything out of the ordinary?
Of game design? No. However, I think we've reached the pinnacle of gaming - in general. I believed "the beginning of the end" (of gaming breakthroughs) started back in the 90's with the iteration of 3D environments.) Before that, we were limited to side-scrolling and top-top-down, and before that even less. With the recent additions of motion/voice-control, games in general still and will always consist of previous breakthroughs:
- Puzzles (tetris, candy crush, etc...)
- Side-scrollers (including 2.75D)
- top-down (RTS)
- FPS
- 3P.Shooters/Fighters
- Simulators (Auto/Flight/etc...)
This is just a very general if not obtuse personal assumption. One could easily argue in detail about graphics/mechanics, speculative lighting, and all the pretty bells and whistles we're getting today - that these things can always be improved, so how can can there ever be a pinnacle?
Well, perhaps the better question would be:
Is this as good as it gets?
justjustin
Member
Not even close. With greater technology videogames will be able to simulate anything we have an understanding of, and they'll only grow more complex to match the kinds of things we can experience in the real world.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Nah. The limits are based on so many developers focusing on the same exact types of games, like the dual stick 3D TPS/FPS. The kinds of interaction in games have, IMO, regressed quite a lot from the spectrum of gametypes that console market used to offer when things were more abstract and less obsessed with character-based, 'grounded' (Hollywood-action) cinematic experiences. So, things are far more refined in terms of gameplay flow, camera design, and control for a narrower type of gameplay, but the macro scale has shrunk to accommodate that focus. Game design can be as vast and untapped as any creator's vision and ambition level, but most people making games seem to be only interested in past video games and movies rather than drawing from the analog world outside and from their own imaginations as early game designers had to.
Ultima VII has better open world design than most modern open world games.
Underworld has better level design than all of the Elder Scrolls games combined.
Game design isn't as limited by technology as graphics are. You can design on paper and have it still be compelling and interesting (see pen and paper RPGs).
Underworld has better level design than all of the Elder Scrolls games combined.
Game design isn't as limited by technology as graphics are. You can design on paper and have it still be compelling and interesting (see pen and paper RPGs).