I don't think it's huge. It's certainly much softer than (for instance) making warsong not give charge for minions that scale past 3 attack, or nerfing the patrons directly.
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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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I don't think it's huge. It's certainly much softer than (for instance) making warsong not give charge for minions that scale past 3 attack, or nerfing the patrons directly.
Continuing the discussion last page. The real nature of the problem is that Blizzard never created checks and balances for cards being played from the hand. Or the ones that exist are too awful to be worth playing. Even Loatheb is no longer the auto-include it once was.
I know why they want to avoid messing with hands (because it's unfun), but as long as they steadfastly refuse to touch hands, they will need to nerf every combo that crops up on a case-by-case basis.
Bizzaro Thaurissan
6
At the end of your turn, increase the Cost of cards in your opponent's hand by (1).
5/5
ehehehehe
I know why they want to avoid messing with hands (because it's unfun), but as long as they steadfastly refuse to touch hands, they will need to nerf every combo that crops up on a case-by-case basis.
Bizzaro Thaurissan
6
At the end of your turn, increase the Cost of cards in your opponent's hand by (1).
5/5
ehehehehe
call_kotaku
Member
Make a neutral minion card that reads "Can't attack. When your hero takes lethal damage, kill this minion instead"
If the Berserker was nerfed to only proc off of allied minions the deck would survive and the combo would still be good. It would not punish you for playing minions either.
The Trump vs Sjow game is a good example of this nerf in action.
Trump traded poorly to remove his minions from the board.
Trump kept his Armor Smiths in hand to prevent Patron spawns.
Trump kept Dr. Boom in his hand to prevent Berserker attack growth.
If he played Boom and Armor Smiths and they didn't buff the Berserker then the combo would not have reached his health/armor level. Combos & decks that stop you from playing cards usually get nerfed and this should be a good nerf.
I also like the idea of changing Warsong Commander to a 3/2.
I also like the idea of increasing the cost of Battle Rage to 3 mana. Right now it's the best card draw in the game. At 3 mana at least it's on par with Arcane Intellect.
The Trump vs Sjow game is a good example of this nerf in action.
Trump traded poorly to remove his minions from the board.
Trump kept his Armor Smiths in hand to prevent Patron spawns.
Trump kept Dr. Boom in his hand to prevent Berserker attack growth.
If he played Boom and Armor Smiths and they didn't buff the Berserker then the combo would not have reached his health/armor level. Combos & decks that stop you from playing cards usually get nerfed and this should be a good nerf.
I also like the idea of changing Warsong Commander to a 3/2.
I also like the idea of increasing the cost of Battle Rage to 3 mana. Right now it's the best card draw in the game. At 3 mana at least it's on par with Arcane Intellect.
It is absolutely huge. "Draw a card" is a very expensive effect, about 1.5 mana. Any card nerfed by 1.5 mana would be a huge hit. I dont even think a Mad Scientist nerf needs to be that extreme. Would you play Arcane Intellect if it drew only 1 card? Battle Rage is balanced around the face counting because having two damaged minions JUST to get standard value is a very difficult standard to meet in most cases.
It is not huge. The card is already overvalued: in patron specifically, you can draw 2+ cards regularly with the card for 2 mana.
I strongly disagree with your position; this is a soft nerf that would still allow patron to be played, still require them to include battle rage, but knock the win rate of the deck down 2-5%, which is what we want.
Super Nothing
Member
Shaman already has that card, it's called Far Sight. It even comes with a 3 mana discount on the drawn card. Nobody plays it.
2 cards for 2 mana is strong, but conditional. Since it requires setup where you have both face and a minion damaged that is fair.
With your suggestion, it does NOTHING unless you have a damaged minion, and you need 2 damaged minions JUST to be fair. Which is actually quite difficult to achieve, even for Patron. If you hit Battle Rage that hard, I'd sooner just run commanding shout.
Yeah I'm not a fan of nerfing battle rage at all. It's a mediocre to ok card made incredible by a single deck. That is exactly the kind of card I would never nerf. I like combo decks. Combo decks need card draw to be viable. And I want battle rage to not be complete garbage in non-patron decks.
making warsong 3/2 is interesting but I still think Emperor is the degenerate card here and not only in patron. Without Emperor you can't double frothing double whirlwind from hand. A double whirlwind would require a loaded death's bite which is an exploitable weakness. And Emperor will inevitable lead to other degenerate OTK decks and will probably have to be nerfed someday anyway.
I love almost everything about patron warrior except warsong double forthing turns that do 30-50 damage from hand.
I also don't think the goal is to lower patron warrior's win% by any small amount. The goal is to remove the losses where you felt completely helpless because the patron had nothing and just killed you from hand.
The only times I feel truly helpless against patron is when they play Emperor in the first 1/3 of their deck. And its that feeling of helplessness that I would seek to remove via nerfs.
making warsong 3/2 is interesting but I still think Emperor is the degenerate card here and not only in patron. Without Emperor you can't double frothing double whirlwind from hand. A double whirlwind would require a loaded death's bite which is an exploitable weakness. And Emperor will inevitable lead to other degenerate OTK decks and will probably have to be nerfed someday anyway.
I love almost everything about patron warrior except warsong double forthing turns that do 30-50 damage from hand.
I also don't think the goal is to lower patron warrior's win% by any small amount. The goal is to remove the losses where you felt completely helpless because the patron had nothing and just killed you from hand.
The only times I feel truly helpless against patron is when they play Emperor in the first 1/3 of their deck. And its that feeling of helplessness that I would seek to remove via nerfs.
Yes, that is correct. I think 2 damaged minions is actually already overslotted: 2 cards for 2 mana is very strong. 1 card for 2 mana is weak but not terrible in a cycle-heavy deck like Patron, especially given that the upside would be 4+ cards, which happens with relative frequency for Patron.
It would still be played by Patron. It would probably nerf their win rate by 2-5%. Do you feel it would be more?
Minsc
Gold Member
I think one of the biggest problems with Patron Warrior is that it is reminiscent of Hunter's UTH + Starving Buzzard, in which starting around turn 6 or 7 (though it was earlier vs hunters I think), playing or having a minion on the board punishes you.
So any of your early 1-3 drop minions that you draw beyond the first 12 or so cards of your 30 are now dead cards vs patron because playing them only makes it easier for you to lose... much like playing minions only got yourself killed vs Hunter since they could draw out 10 cards in a turn and clear you board etc... very similar to Patron. I just don't see Blizzard letting a deck be that punishes you for putting less than 3 attack minions in your deck. They're completely useless cards vs Patron. Well except the 0 attack ones I guess, but even those just feed the Berserker.
Yet Shaman gets to pay 4 mana for 2 cards... lol. Makes it seem not so bad.
So any of your early 1-3 drop minions that you draw beyond the first 12 or so cards of your 30 are now dead cards vs patron because playing them only makes it easier for you to lose... much like playing minions only got yourself killed vs Hunter since they could draw out 10 cards in a turn and clear you board etc... very similar to Patron. I just don't see Blizzard letting a deck be that punishes you for putting less than 3 attack minions in your deck. They're completely useless cards vs Patron. Well except the 0 attack ones I guess, but even those just feed the Berserker.
Yet Shaman gets to pay 4 mana for 2 cards... lol. Makes it seem not so bad.
So your solution would be ____ instead -- fill in the blank. Nerf emperor? I don't think that's happening, it's too important to too many decks. You should nerf cards that are only used in a single deck, not the other way around (i.e. I disagree strongly with your suggestion that cards only good in a single deck should not be nerfed).
shira
Member
My stance is that if you don't nerf emperor, over time you will end up nerfing 10-20 other cards instead as new combo decks get invented and I'd rather just get the emperor nerf over with.
And I strongly disagree with nerfing cards that aren't that strong generally except in a particular deck unless there is no other alternative.
You couldn't charge with it anymore. You effectively kill Patron dead with that.
In Arena battle rage would still be great at 3 mana.
I've gone 12 wins in Arena with Warrior. All you need is Gorehowl.
Minsc
Gold Member
Compare it to Novice Engineer I suppose. That's 2 mana to draw 1 card and play a 1/1.
This would be 2 mana to draw 1 card (when you have a damaged minion, which isn't too hard - half a warrior's deck is about doing 1 point of damage to a minion) and in exchange for the 1/1 body, you have the potential to draw an additional 1-3+ cards... doesn't seem to bad.
The problem with Emperor is that the card will only become more of a problem with time. I honestly believe that the card's effect is quite under-costed, and it has an effect that mostly takes viable combo decks and puts them over the top.
Decks running Emperor need to be reliable without it(since playing Emperor early can not be done reliably), but he is going to continue accelerating combos to unfair turns, and that makes his current form as a 6/5/5 with a guaranteed activation too potent.
Ya, an epic that is played at turn 7+ is totally the key to arena-Warrior.
It doesn't matter that "it's still great". With the current state of Warrior in Arena any minor nerf is fucking idiotic.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Since that Reddit thread, I can't not hear "heh, disguised toast".
You'd have to meet a condition just to cycle the damn thing. Novice Engineer always gets you 1 card. So you aren't just trading the 1/1 body. You also have the drawback that you can't even cycle it most of the time. The potential upside becomes way too hard to meet.
OOps u're right forgot that.
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Apparently they are going to showcase an Aviana OTK Druid!
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Apparently they are going to showcase an Aviana OTK Druid!
Honestly I thought frothing berserker was OP since the first time I played the game in beta.
it was only a matter of time until its true potential was unleashed.
Frothing shouldn't buff when damaging an enemy minion IMO, simple as that. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread its just the new UTH + Buzzard combo.
it was only a matter of time until its true potential was unleashed.
Frothing shouldn't buff when damaging an enemy minion IMO, simple as that. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread its just the new UTH + Buzzard combo.
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BananasWithGuns
Member
Alright, just give the release date and show the Shaman legendary and I'll be happy.
Unless of course the Shaman legendary is terrible, in which case I won't be so happy.
Unless of course the Shaman legendary is terrible, in which case I won't be so happy.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
if that's all then i will boo. Show us the rest of the cards.
Tbh it probably is OP. I think the only reason it isn't popular in CW is that it is anti-synergy with Alexstrasza. Doing damage to your opponent is almost pointless Until her battlecry comes out.
They will show new cards man.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
I've always thought a good Counter-esque card would be Grounding Totem for Shaman. We need more of those types of cards.
EDIT: Speaking of the Shaman legendary, I spent a good chunk of time last night theorycrafting a bunch of various Legend cards they could go with. I bummed myself out knowing there can be only one.
PogChamp
Santiako is my twitch
Mobius and pet octopus
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protekt1, although not sure if I am in it already or not since I recall joining one a while ago
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