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[Nizz]

6'3 looking down at the little people.

5'3" giving you the middle finger.

 

[totowhoa]

I wanted to get into this conversation when I saw this thread on my phone this morning when I woke up, but I've just been too damn busy all day. That said, I probably won't read through the last 9 pages to see where the discussion has gone, but if it hasn't been posted, there was a great article published in The Economist in 1995 entitled Short Guys Finish Last by Jonathan Rauch. It is really quite short. When it was printed it was only about 2.5 pages in length if you were to remove the images. I'll offer a few choice quotes for those who are interested, but I recommend reading it since it's extremely brief. Again, I apologize if some of this has already been discussed. Edit: I just realized that one statistic mentioned below is in the OP even

As boys grow, the importance of height is drummed into them incessantly. "My, how tall you are!" the relatives squeal with approval. Or, with scorn, "Don't you want to grow up big and strong?"

"If a short man is normally assertive, then he's seen as having Napoleonic tendencies," says David Weeks, a clinical psychologist at Royal Edinburgh Hospital. "If he is introverted and mildly submissive, then he's seen as a wimp."

One of the most elegant height experiments was reported in 1968 by an Australian psychologist, Paul Wilson. He introduced the same unfamiliar man to five groups of students, varying only the status attributed to the stranger. In one class, the newcomer was said to be a student, in another a lecturer, right up to being a professor from Cambridge University. Once the visitor had left the room, each group was asked to estimate the man's height, along with that of the instructor. The results are plotted in the chart above. Not only was the "professor" thought to be more than two inches taller than the "student"; the height estimates rose in proportion to his perceived status.

Consider six aspects of a supposedly advanced culture.

Politics. In all but three American presidential elections this century, the taller man has won. By itself this might be a coincidence. And of course some short politicians thrive (examples include France's Francois Mitterrand and Britain's Harold Wilson). But the pattern is still clear, and is also found in:

Business. A survey in 1980 found that more than half the chief executives of America's Fortune 500 companies stood six feet tall or more. As a class, these wekepei were a good 2.5 inches taller than average; only 3% were peritsi, 5'7" or less. Other surveys suggest that about 90% of chief executives are of above-average height. Similarly for:

Professional status. Looking at several professions, one study found that people in high-ranking jobs were about two inches taller than those down below, a pattern that held even when comparing men of like educational and socioeconomic status. Senior civil servants in Britain, for instance, tend to be taller than junior ones. Shorter people also have worse:

Jobs. Give job recruiters two invented resumes that have been carefully matched except for the candidates' height, as one study did in 1969. Fully 72% of the time, the taller man is "hired". And when they are hired, they tend also to earn rather more:

Money. In 1994 James Sargent and David Blanchflower, of America's Dartmouth College, analysed a sample of about 6,000 male Britons whose progress was monitored from birth to early adulthood. Short teenaged boys made less money when they became young adults (aged 23) than their taller peers--even after other attributes, such as scores on ability tests or parents' social status, were factored out. For every four inches of height in adolescence, earnings went up more than 2% in early adulthood. Another survey, of graduates of the University of Pittsburgh, found that those who were 6'2" or taller received starting salaries 12% higher than those under six feet.

Not only do tall people grow richer, rich people grow taller. They enjoy well-nourished childhoods and better health. The stature-success nexus further bolsters the social preference for height. And that preference is expressed in a coin that is even more precious than money, namely:

Sex. Mating opportunities are, at least in evolutionary terms, the ultimate prize of status. And here is the final humiliation for short men. When 100 women were asked to evaluate photographs of men whom they believed to be either tall, average or short, all of them found the tall and medium specimens "significantly more attractive" than the short ones. In another study, only two of 79 women said they would go on a date with a man shorter than themselves (the rest, on average, wanted to date a man at least 1.7 inches taller). "The universally acknowledged cardinal rule of dating and mate selection is that the male will be significantly taller than his female partner," write Mr Martel and Mr Biller. "This rule is almost inviolable." For short men, the sexual pickings are therefore likely to be slim.

 

[i-Lo]

I wanted to get into this conversation when I saw this thread on my phone this morning when I woke up, but I've just been too damn busy all day. That said, I probably won't read through the last 9 pages to see where the discussion has gone, but if it hasn't been posted, there was a great article published in The Economist in 1995 entitled Short Guys Finish Last by Jonathan Rauch. It is really quite short. When it was printed it was only about 2.5 pages in length if you were to remove the images. I'll offer a few choice quotes for those who are interested, but I recommend reading it since it's extremely brief. Again, I apologize if some of this has already been discussed. Edit: I just realized that one statistic mentioned below is in the OP even

Thanks for the posting the article. I guess that's that then. No kids for me. The world's disdain for short people is undeniable and to physically overcome this issue is nearly untenable. Natural selection is alive and well I see.

Given being short is looked down upon 1. in occupation 2. as option for partner (both hetero and homosexual) 3. within your own ethnic group 4. by people who'd brand you Napoleonic if you're assertive 5. even in games where the protagonist is almost always has an above average height, this sort of renders the so called "progress" of human kind to move past discriminations somewhat moot. Perhaps short folks should just roll over and let the idea of equal opportunity escape into the ether.

 

[Freezie KO]

I wanted to get into this conversation when I saw this thread on my phone this morning when I woke up, but I've just been too damn busy all day. That said, I probably won't read through the last 9 pages to see where the discussion has gone, but if it hasn't been posted, there was a great article published in The Economist in 1995 entitled Short Guys Finish Last by Jonathan Rauch. It is really quite short. When it was printed it was only about 2.5 pages in length if you were to remove the images. I'll offer a few choice quotes for those who are interested, but I recommend reading it since it's extremely brief. Again, I apologize if some of this has already been discussed. Edit: I just realized that one statistic mentioned below is in the OP even

Yep.

We are animals, and we can't use logic to defy our primal instincts. Pity.

 

[Devolution]

You might not seem imposing but I tend to think that slimmer people actually look slightly taller than they actually are. Or at least that is my experience; people tend to think I am around 5'9" or that my father is around 6' - 6'1".

Yes. When I tell people I'm 5'4" for whatever reason they think I'm taller.

 

[ledman]

Oh, looks like being short is worse than death itself or being a Cubs fan.

 

[CrazyDude]

Oh, looks like being short is worse than death itself or being a Cubs fan.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[totowhoa]

I found it particularly interesting how that article notes that we have worked "heightism" into our vernacular. My brother has always been much shorter than me (I am 6'3 without shoes). I favor my shorter mother in most ways genetically, while my brother favors my father in every way but height. My father hit his growth spurt around the age of 19 or 20, and he is 6'4. For years people would always comment on how much shorter my brother was than myself, but my father would always say something like "I kept growing through college -- just give him some time and he'll be up there soon enough!"

My brother is now 24 and still quite a few inches shorter than me (I'd guess 5'10 or 5'11), but looking back it's funny to see how ingrained this sort of thing really is. Our height difference was always mentioned by adults. Although we are only two years apart in age, I've always been much taller -- I definitely had a foot on him at least when we were younger... he was always the shortest kid in class while I was the tallest.

 

[Yoshiya]

That said, I probably won't read through the last 9 pages to see where the discussion has gone, but if it hasn't been posted, there was a great article published in The Economist in 1995 entitled Short Guys Finish Last by Jonathan Rauch.

This was really interesting. I still don't see how we could effectively legislate against unconscious biases like attractiveness and height though, rendering these LostVoyager threads largely pointless.

 

[Freezie KO]

This was really interesting. I still don't see how we could effectively legislate against unconscious biases like attractiveness and height though, rendering these LostVoyager threads largely pointless.

Anything we can't effectively legislate is pointless to discuss?

 

[Yoshiya]

Anything we can't effectively legislate is pointless to discuss?

Well, in a tongue-in-cheek manner that article raised the idea that short people should benefit from the same legal protections as other people disadvantaged due to factors beyond their control. That has been the general societal response to such matters - along with education, I suppose. I just don't see how these strategies could be repurposed here in response to biases so innate.

 

[Freezie KO]

Well, in a tongue-in-cheek manner that article raised the idea that short people should benefit from the same legal protections as other people disadvantaged due to factors beyond their control. That has been the general societal response to such matters - along with education, I suppose. I just don't see how these strategies could be repurposed here in response to biases so innate.

I don't think they can. I think the "lookism" and "heightism" threads are particularly interesting for that matter. I don't think we'll ever get over them. We're human.

Still can make for enlightening discussion. I wasn't aware of how prevalent heightism was in all aspects of society. I applaud LostVoyager, Voice of the Voiceless.

 

[Messofanego]

As boys grow, the importance of height is drummed into them incessantly. "My, how tall you are!" the relatives squeal with approval. Or, with scorn, "Don't you want to grow up big and strong?"

I wouldn't mind if there was a law where relatives can't legally spout this societal shit to kids who're emotionally impressionable and fuck them in the head for years to come.

Relatives can be the worst. Since they don't know anything about a kid's personality, they go straight for the image.

 

[agrajag]

5'7", looks like I barely made it by the skin of my teeth, I can still be in that coveted CEO bracket!

 

[totowhoa]

This was really interesting. I still don't see how we could effectively legislate against unconscious biases like attractiveness and height though, rendering these LostVoyager threads largely pointless.

They're certainly not pointless, because we do legislate these sorts of things! I can't remember if the article I posted mentioned this specifically (I quickly skimmed it for those quotes, and it's been a bit since I read it from start to fin), but the United States offers various forms of aid for those who are under the height of 4'10". There are people who are 4'10" who do not suffer from the more severe deformities that most dwarfs do, yet they can receive aid. Is this OK? Is it OK to give aid to people whose bodies are not severely disproportionate, even though they are short? How do you draw the line, and what sort of aid should they receive? We have scientific data that shows that they are discriminated against and are at a disadvantage when it comes to fair wages--should they be recipients of affirmative action?

And you mention unconscious biases... Infants as young as 6 months begin discriminating against other races. Research published in Newsweek in 2009 and NurtureShock in 2007 by the University of Texas showed this (See Baby Discriminate). "Colorblindness" seems to be an impossibility when the child is born into a racially unified family (further research into families who specifically adopt or are interracial have yet to be carried out as far as I know, though control groups were used in this study). This specifically looks at white children who react negatively to black individuals at a young age in the United States only. Is this because blacks appear foreign to white infants in white families, and therefore they react defensively? We're not really sure yet -- but we can scientifically measure the response, and it's presumably built into everybody of any race -- but it's not found in blacks in the United States (presumably due to the very high prevalence of whites in the country--a strike against the idea of reverse racism). When you consider our senses--sight, smell, sound, touch, etc... sight is the most important, because it is the only sense that can be used at a distance (you can identify skin color at a half mile or 800 meters). In Are We Born Racist (I have not personally read this in full), it is shown that these whites react in an opposite manner on a neurological level to familiar black faces (i.e. they react as if these blacks were in fact whites.. occurs with actors, etc, and this has been found in other studies) which leads people to believe that racism may have a primal level... i.e., *exposure* and *education* at a very young age could help eliminate racism. Without this, however, there may be a primal inclination to discriminate. If this is the case, then it requires conscious effort as an adolescent and adult to cease discrimination based upon color. This would be due to the fact that they were raised in an environment during the first few months of their life that lead the brain to believe that anything different = scary. Everything I've mentioned in this paragraph is still under study of course, and as a somebody in an interracial relationship who plans on adopting instead of having children for various reasons... I'm interested in hearing more.

My point is, however, that unconscious biases are very important, because they eventually become conscious biases. Even in regard to short people. The difference between races and heights is very significant, and I DEFINITELY am not trying to put "heightism" and racism on the same level here by any means. Food for thought, etc.

I wouldn't mind if there was a law where relatives can't legally spout this societal shit to kids who're emotionally impressionable and fuck them in the head for years to come.

Relatives can be the worst. Since they don't know anything about a kid's personality, they go straight for the image.

It's very cruel, but the point is that it's very innate. Out of curiosity, did something like this happen to you or a sibling as well while growing up? I just shared my experience with my relatives above, so I'm curious

 

[shanshan310]

I am slightly too short to work as a flight attendant in Australia ;.; Feels bad man. It was my plan! Do it for a couple of years and travel around, use my Japanese and stuff...

You might not seem imposing but I tend to think that slimmer people actually look slightly taller than they actually are. Or at least that is my experience; people tend to think I am around 5'9" or that my father is around 6' - 6'1".

I find it works that way for many overweight people too. I think they are really tall until they stand next to me, and I'm often taller than they are.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

You can shave a beard... I do not mean to demean that form of discrimination if you are experience but I feel heightism is different because it is not as controllable

Not everyone can grow a beard. Why must you be so insensitive to the hormonally disadvantaged?

 

[Brofist]

You ever notice how people with names that begin with J tend to get discriminated against. There needs to be an -ism topic for them.

 

[Messofanego]

It's very cruel, but the point is that it's very innate. Out of curiosity, did something like this happen to you or a sibling as well while growing up? I just shared my experience with my relatives above, so I'm curious

Doesn't really relate to me, but I know many people who've had that experience. Not really as a kid, everyone only brought up how cute I was and how I never used to cry.

But around puberty, dad and grandpa started comparing to other cousins. And when you're in an extended family, that's rough going. Dad wanted me to be way taller than him, kept on reassuring me I'd keep on growing until 21 (lol). I told them how I don't really care, and they only stopped caring when I was 5'7" (acceptable for asians).

 

[totowhoa]

Doesn't really relate to me, but I know many people who've had that experience. Not really as a kid, everyone only brought up how cute I was and how I never used to cry.

But around puberty, dad and grandpa started comparing to other cousins. And when you're in an extended family, that's rough going. Dad wanted me to be way taller than him, kept on reassuring me I'd keep on growing until 21 (lol). I told them how I don't really care, and they only stopped caring when I was 5'7" (acceptable for asians).

Are you Asian-Indian? (guessing by your avatar). I'd always thought they were much taller than eastern and south eastern asians by a fair bit... To rephrase that, in my experience at university, Asian-Indians always seemed about on par with Caucasians, but I realize that may not be the case.

 

[jaxword]

Ungodly has a negative connotation.

That's completely subjective on every level.

Some religious people might have a weird sexual issue with associating good sex with God.

Some people may be using the "let's be BAD" definition of sex, which generally is related to naughty l'il devils. Don't recall the Bible liking them.

Some people may simply not believe in God, but if they did, that would be BEYOND any God-like experience.

And some people wouldn't be pedantic semantic spergouts and not care what word they used as long as it seemed big and overwhelming.

 

[Caelus]

Thanks for the responses.

So, my height could be completely random- just taller than my father? I personally believe I'll end up being 5'10'', though it's slightly depressing when my family keeps praying that I become 6 feet. To be honest, once I'm my full adult height I'll be taller than most of them anyway, I'm content with an average height. I'm more interested in health and fitness, honestly.

... I didn't know there were GAFfers who were that young.
And I think I was around 5'2" - 5'4" at that age; my father is 5'11" and my mother is 5'; I ended up being 5'7".

Spoiler

Did that sound ageist?

Not at all.

 

[Enco]

Yea relatives suck.

"My how you've grown! You're so much taller than last year!"

Fuck you, no I'm not.

 

[Kwhit10]

Throughout highschool I was one of the three shortest males. Now I'm just over 6' but I still have this mentality that everyone is taller then me when I'm actually taller than a good portion of the people I come across.

 

[MVP]

I experience heightism because I'm 6'4 and I always get comments like "Are you in the NBA? Oh man you need to be making millions, if I was your height blah blah blah...".

WELL I'M SORRY I'M SUCH A WASTE OF HEIGHT, MOTHERFUCKER, DIDN'T KNOW TALL PEOPLE COULDN'T BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN BASKETBALL PLAYERS

 

[RumblingRosco]

5'9" and, sure, I'd like to be taller, but don't worry, I'm still more successful than 95% of people my age. Taller people will make great under-paid bodyguards when I become super famous.

MVP: You can always be my body guard if your career as an NBA player falls through.

 

[MVP]

MVP: You can always be my body guard if your career as an NBA player falls through.

 

[Aesius]

Yea relatives suck.

"My how you've grown! You're so much taller than last year!"

Fuck you, no I'm not.

I'm 25 and have been the same height for 9 years and I still get the "you've grown so much" line.

 

[Gannd]

I wonder how some people get through the day with so much offensive I things in the world. I think we need a thread about victim hoodism.

 

[Mumei]

Yea relatives suck.

"My how you've grown! You're so much taller than last year!"

Fuck you, no I'm not.

Haha

I remember growing up one thing I always dreaded about going to visit relatives or my mother's friends was that my mother would always do the "Oh, oh! Stand back to back with him! I want to compare how tall you are!"

... And I could just tell eyeballing it that I was around, say, shoulder-level. "... Mom, he's taller than me. You can tell just looking."

It was something that made me feel insecure about it for a long time, since it just seemed designed to embarrass me about how everyone my age was outgrowing me. I know tall people get the same obsessing over their height - and unlike mine, it doesn't stop when they get older - but I would take the embarrassment of being taller than average and having it pointed out than being shorter than average.

My height does not bother me now the way it did then, partially due to the fact that I grew to "a tick below average," but I would still probably feel a little badly if someone were to arbitrarily compare heights just to point out my being short, not so much for that itself but more for reminding me of an experience that I always found humiliating when I was younger.

 

[JaskoX1]

I'm 5'5. If you're not into taller girls, you're doing it wrong. I think I've dated one girl who was shorter than me. Everyone else has been at least 5'7, one was 5'10. It's awesome. And the only way to go.

The only guy who Heightism really affects is the short guys who have a chip on their shoulder for being short. I've never had a problem with it, because being short never really bothered me. I don't think I've ever been discriminated against for my height. If I have been, I wasn't aware of it. If you don't give a fuck that you are short, no one else will, either. I can ride all the roller coasters I want, so I don't give a fuck. The only issue I have with being short is it is hard to find clothes that fit well. Pants especially. I'm not a super skinny short guy. I'm not fat, but I am a bit stocky and have especially thick legs. I always have to buy a size up so my pants aren't super tight and uncomfortable around my thighs. Which means all my pants are either too long, too baggy, or both. It's the only problem I've ever had being a short guy.

So you have the body structure of Jack Black. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Malvolio]

You might not seem imposing but I tend to think that slimmer people actually look slightly taller than they actually are. Or at least that is my experience; people tend to think I am around 5'9" or that my father is around 6' - 6'1".

I think there is a fair amount of truth to this. I've lost a decent amount of weight in the past year or so and I often have people commenting on my height as well as my weight loss. People I've known my whole life too. I think it might be a reflection of my higher level of confidence, but the amount of people that comment on it has certainly caught me off guard.

 

[Drazgul]

I'm 25 and have been the same height for 9 years and I still get the "you've grown so much" line.

From old relatives? Old people shrink, so maybe from their perspective you seem to be growing every year.

 

[i_am_ben]

This was really interesting. I still don't see how we could effectively legislate against unconscious biases like attractiveness and height though, rendering these LostVoyager threads largely pointless.

Whether it's effective or not, Victoria already bans against discrimination based on appearance. I'd imagine most other Australian states do too. At the very least it's a start.

 

[clearacell]

I'm only 5'5" and my beautiful girlfriend seems to be perfectly okay with me I could give two shits about height.

 

[LuffyZoro]

The only issue I have with being short is it is hard to find clothes that fit well. Pants especially. I'm not a super skinny short guy. I'm not fat, but I am a bit stocky and have especially thick legs. I always have to buy a size up so my pants aren't super tight and uncomfortable around my thighs. Which means all my pants are either too long, too baggy, or both. It's the only problem I've ever had being a short guy.

Same kinda thing happens when you're tall and skinny with long legs. Pants end up being either too baggy or too short, and shirts generally hang off me.

 

[totowhoa]

Definitely gotta say that the worst thing about being tall is banging your head on cabinets that people leave open. My fiance is too short for this to happen to her, so she used to do this regularly for the first two years or so that we lived together... so annoying. Especially when we are cooking together and I am turning quickly to take something off a burner and -- WHAM. Corner of a wooden cabinet right in the middle of the forehead.

 

[Messofanego]

Are you Asian-Indian? (guessing by your avatar). I'd always thought they were much taller than eastern and south eastern asians by a fair bit... To rephrase that, in my experience at university, Asian-Indians always seemed about on par with Caucasians, but I realize that may not be the case.

Yeah. Taller than them maybe, but I wouldn't say we're on par with young white people. I've lived in USA, UK, and now Czech Republic and only the women are usually around my height.

 

[Angry Puppy]

i wouldnt rule out dating guys shorter than me, but height is something that i would consider.

 

[Izayoi]

I prefer short girls.

In fact, I almost exclusively go out with short girls.

Am I myself being heightist, or am I subverting the discrimination?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I prefer short girls.

In fact, I almost exclusively go out with short girls.

Am I myself being heightist, or am I subverting the discrimination?

Reverse heightism!

 

[Enco]

I'm 25 and have been the same height for 9 years and I still get the "you've grown so much" line.

Yea it never seems to end. Every time.

Haha

I remember growing up one thing I always dreaded about going to visit relatives or my mother's friends was that my mother would always do the "Oh, oh! Stand back to back with him! I want to compare how tall you are!"

... And I could just tell eyeballing it that I was around, say, shoulder-level. "... Mom, he's taller than me. You can tell just looking."

It was something that made me feel insecure about it for a long time, since it just seemed designed to embarrass me about how everyone my age was outgrowing me. I know tall people get the same obsessing over their height - and unlike mine, it doesn't stop when they get older - but I would take the embarrassment of being taller than average and having it pointed out than being shorter than average.

My height does not bother me now the way it did then, partially due to the fact that I grew to "a tick below average," but I would still probably feel a little badly if someone were to arbitrarily compare heights just to point out my being short, not so much for that itself but more for reminding me of an experience that I always found humiliating when I was younger.

Totally agree with everything you just said :lol

It's all true.

 

[strobogo]

So you have the body structure of Jack Black. Nothing wrong with that.

This is very offensive to me. Jack Blackism is no joke.

 

[JohnDoe]

I'm a reverse heightist, I'm almost exclusively attracted to girls below 5'7"

 

[harSon]

I'm 6'2"

I think 6'2" - 6'3" is around the perfect height IMO. You're tall without being too tall. It's a lot easier to find clothes and shoes too

 

[cutmeamango]

6'0" is the best for the male golden ratio.

 

[Trurl]

You might not seem imposing but I tend to think that slimmer people actually look slightly taller than they actually are. Or at least that is my experience; people tend to think I am around 5'9" or that my father is around 6' - 6'1".

I'm skinny and people seem to be slow to notice that I'm almost always the tallest guy in the building. My personality can come across as timid initially and I think that has something to do with it.

I've also had a lot of experiences of "you're tall, but not as tall as so-and-so." But once I have a chance to stand back to back with so-and-so I am actually an inch or two taller.

 

[Red]

I'm 6'2"

I think 6'2" - 6'3" is around the perfect height IMO. You're tall without being too tall. It's a lot easier to find clothes and shoes too

Eh. I am 6'1'' and it is a chore finding clothes that fit. A 30/34 pant size is so hard to come across, and finding a shirt that is long enough without looking like a parachute is often a practice in futility.

 

[Izayoi]

I'm a reverse heightist, I'm almost exclusively attracted to girls below 5'7"

Good taste alert.

 

[Veitsev]

Good taste alert.