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[Rentahamster]

Eh, I'm unfortunately not convinced that the progressive platforms we want are actually popular enough to win electoral control on their own. I just don't think the country is there.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx

Presented with three separate scenarios for the future of the Affordable Care Act (ACA), 58% of U.S. adults favor the idea of replacing the law with a federally funded healthcare system that provides insurance for all Americans.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...overnment-should-ensure-health-care-coverage/

Currently, 60% of Americans say the government should be responsible for ensuring health care coverage for all Americans, compared with 38% who say this should not be the government’s responsibility. The share saying it is the government’s responsibility has increased from 51% last year and now stands at its highest point in nearly a decade.

 

[The Technomancer]

Guess expecting your politicians to actually (entirely?) represent constituents is too high of an expectation for you.

I believe (and think Im justified in believing) that there are systematic reasons why Democrats seemingly suck in terms of policy outcomes despite demographic and policy stance advantages.

For example. Today medicare for all has an approval rating of over 50 percent. (Nationwide , higher in democratic constituents)... yet how many Congress people support it?

I want Democrats to win. Part of that is assuming popular positions. It's not just a disagreement on policy, but politics and strategy

Six years ago the milquetoast ACA caused this country to lose its mind in frothing anger, and frankly I trust that actual exercise in voting over what opinion polls say. The reaction to the ACA wasn't just opposition, it was visceral hatred from the right

EDIT: I mean I think that approval is so high because the right hasn't had a chance to dig into any real proposals yet.

 

[Zubz]

I appreciate it, but honestly, I think she might do more harm than good. Regardless of her qualifications, she was unpopular, & her platform primarily being little more than "I'm very well-suited for this position" doesn't really strike me as something that screams "resistance."

 

[tuxfool]

I mean I'd like to again congratulate everyone for turning this thread now into a relegation of the primaries and a debate on who and who isn't a neoliberal and if it is or isn't a pejorative.

Howard Dean name drops Clinton in talking about an initiate to help activists on the ground get financing and we're debating about neoliberalism in between the fuck you and fuck off posts.... Congratulations

Yup

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

all around.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

Dude I like you but yeah avoid this shit....

I don't even know that Fake Progressives work but that's a bit better I guess but I think the idea that Progressives can't be shit on xyz issues makes it harder to police our own because we just throw them out instead.

Bernouts or Bernie Busters works a lot better because they're not truly ideologically left, they're just a cult of personality for Sanders much like the one around Ron Paul. (I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of them aren't just former Paulites) I voted for Bernie in the primaries to help show that there was a place for more European style social democracy in America, I knew he would most likely lose and he did so I voted Hillary like I had planned. Hillary adopted a lot of his platform which was quite heartening, but Bernouts really like to actively reject this and show that have no idea of how our government works and that campaigns need money,and that they're only it for that cult around Bernie instead of genuinely wanting to make the country a better place. If they truly adhered to progressivism and socialism they would work towards achieving their goals alongside other like-minded parties and realize politics is an imperfect and arduous process. Bernie Busters just do nothing but throw tantrums because they just want to feel superior to other people and don't really want to help the country as a whole, they'd rather watch the country burn and millions suffer to keep that moral superiority high going. It's almost to point I regret even voting for Bernie in the first place because I think he's just buying into his own cult now too and not willing to work with Democrats to help save the country.

 

[BruceCLea]

she needs to go the fuck away. i'm a huge democrat. we need new blood. the old guard is done. get out

 

[TestOfTide]

Guess expecting your politicians to actually (entirely?) represent constituents is too high of an expectation for you.

I believe (and think Im justified in believing) that there are systematic reasons why Democrats seemingly suck in terms of policy outcomes despite demographic and policy stance advantages.

For example. Today medicare for all has an approval rating of over 50 percent. (Nationwide , higher in democratic constituents)... yet how many Congress people support it?

I want Democrats to win. Part of that is assuming popular positions. It's not just a disagreement on policy, but politics and strategy

Nothing systematic about it. Obama was too confident that he could easily get republican support.

And Medicare for all loses a lot of its popularity when people hear about the taxes involved with it.

Give me some quotes where I defend Russian hegemony. I'll wait here.

From the thread you just love to bring up, courtesy of Rentahamster - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=228186427&postcount=309

Also, you should probably read this.

I already pointed out where you were defending Russian hegemony in the response to that very post. Which you responded to by doubling down on your attempt to take away the factor of third party nations' autonomy.

And it's not ad hominem when my response was directly related to your question of "where does the "alt" come from".

 

[Not]

Hillary is awesome. She can really help.

Hey "liberals", yeah you, the ones that don't believe that you judge people based on their gender, why don't YOU go the fuck away? That way YOU might actually help the cause.

 

[tuxfool]

she needs to go the fuck away. i'm a huge democrat. we need new blood. the old guard is done. get out

And congrats to you for this 910 posts in.

 

[royalan]

I appreciate it, but honestly, I think she might do more harm than good. Regardless of her qualifications, she was unpopular, & her platform primarily being little more than "I'm very well-suited for this position" doesn't really strike me as something that screams "resistance."

She won the popular vote in the primaries.

She won the popular vote in the general election.

YOU may not like her, but Hillary Clinton is a popular figure. Step out of your bubble.

 

[Rentahamster]

I already pointed out where you were defending Russian hegemony in the response to that very post.

That doesn't count when your response is a strawman.

 

[excelsiorlef]

she needs to go the fuck away. i'm a huge democrat. we need new blood. the old guard is done. get out

Hi she's giving money and raising money for activists groups so they can operate...


She's not running for office... this her doing work as a private citizen.

She is "out"

 

[Dopus]

Nothing systematic about it. Obama was too confident that he could easily get republican support.

And Medicare for all loses a lot of its popularity when people hear about the taxes involved with it.

I already pointed out where you were defending Russian hegemony in the response to that very post. Which you responded to by doubling down on your attempt to take away the factor of third party nations' autonomy.

And it's not ad hominem when my response was directly related to your question of "where does the "alt" come from".

No. In fact, you missed the point. Let's call it quits - this isn't going anywhere. I don't have the patience for you anymore.

 

[BruceCLea]

Hi she's giving money and raising money for activists groups so they can operate...


She's not running for office... this her doing work as a private citizen.

She is "out"

then get out of the spotlight and stop talking about how you could've won the election.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

If Hillary were getting involved with the party on a strategic or hands-on way, I could see the anger, but it's odd to see people get upset at Clinton using her one indisputable talent to basically keep the Dem tank full of gas.

 

[Gattsu25]

Obama (and Trudeau though that was more Mulcair being a complete idiot by pivoting to the centre) feigned being a progressive candidate in his first campaign and presided over the near complete collapse of Democratic power across federal and state lines. If that's the kind of success you want to cling to in defense of your poisonous, parasitic ideology then more power to you (less actually)

Are we ignoring how fast the democratic candidates ran away from the popular sitting president during the 2010 campaign?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/15/AR2010081502551.html

Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine made clear in an interview with "Fox & Friends" last week that he thinks candidates distancing themselves from the president -- and from high-profile congressional leaders such as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi -- are making the wrong move. "I can tell you Democrats who kind of are afraid to be who they are, or pushing back on their leaders, I think they're crazy," Kaine said.

And yet, in campaigns across the country, many Democrats are doing just that.

Yep, sure. Let's blame Obama instead of the candidates that didn't want Obama to appear anywhere near them back in 2010 even though he was more popular than them and could've helped them along.

I know everyone has the memory of a chipmunk nowadays and wants to run away from Obama again...again, despite him being more popular than those they are caping for, but how about we actually learn from our past mistakes and don't pretend that the most popular guy in the room doesn't exist next time.

 

[tuxfool]

If Hillary were getting involved with the party on a strategic or hands-on way, I could see the anger, but it's odd to see people get upset at Clinton using her one indisputable talent to basically keep the Dem tank full of gas.

Like Trump I don't think people know how to read.

 

[excelsiorlef]

then get out of the spotlight and stop talking about how you could've won the election.

I'm sorry I think you're in the wrong thread.. the other Clinton is Satan thread is here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1367851


This article doesn't even quote Clinton it's Howard Dean doing all the talking.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Someone who is for free markets and free movement but supports stronger financial regulations, a strong social safety net, and continued public ownership of certain utility functions isn't a "Neoliberal", they're a liberal! (Speaking American politics, of course.)

I think we have to say yes and no here. Speaking American politics, supporting the concept of a free market is a pretty vague concept, as I think all Americans fundamentally support a free market from the American Left to the American Right so it's not inherently liberal or conservative. We've all been raised that way, none of us would even consider anything other than a free market as the basis of our economic system.

However, a majority of liberals diametrically opposed the TPP for instance, as it was a dramatically overreaching expansion of multinational corporate power. American liberals don't oppose free trade in a general sense, but trade agreements like TPP aren't about trade and never were from the beginning.

As for free movement, I will again say that movement of labor cannot ever be inherently free because we're talking about humans here. Continued existence of nation-states with defined borders serves as checks and balances to the powers of multinational corporations which can shift capital around the world at a moment's notice. Protection of labor in this world must start with defined borders because some nations are completely anti-unionization and labor rights like America and others are supportive like most EU nations. Destruction of nation-states would also bring labor protections to a worldwide lowest common denominator, which is basically the American system exported worldwide. How about no.

 

[TestOfTide]

That doesn't count when your response is a strawman.

My response was literally quoting his post. I mean since you LITERALLY looked for the thread for Dopus I assumed you would remember the part where I directly quoted him.

But anyway:

No. In fact, you missed the point. Let's call it quits - this isn't going anywhere. I don't have the patience for you anymore.

I didn't miss the point, but sure lets end it here.

 

[Dopus]

My response was literally quoting his post. I mean since you LITERALLY looked for the thread for Dopus I assumed you would remember the part where I directly quoted him.

But anyway:

I didn't miss the point, but sure lets end it here.

Okay man.

This is what I feel when I read your posts by the way

 

[Rentahamster]

My response was literally quoting his post. I mean since you LITERALLY looked for the thread for Dopus I assumed you would remember the part where I directly quoted him.

Um, no, your direct response to that post of mine was this:

There is a difference between reasonable criticism of US foreign policy, and Dopus literally claiming that NATO is US Military Aggression.

I don't see any literal quoting of anything except my post.

PS. Actually I didn't look for the thread. He got it himself.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm excited to see where the funds go, I imagine this will help abortion rights activists fight their state by state fights because abortion is probably the issue most at risk in a prolonged conservative reign that flips the Supreme Court

 

[Suikoguy]

No. In fact, you missed the point. Let's call it quits - this isn't going anywhere. I don't have the patience for you anymore.

Then why the fuck are you still replying and posting?

Geeze, if anyone has attitude, it's you.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

just bought this shirt in preparation.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

I have no idea how support of free trade and "open borders" gets mixed in with things like privatization of public services

Reeks of (((globalism))) tbh

 

[Dopus]

Then why the fuck are you still replying and posting?

Geeze, if anyone has attitude, it's you.

Yikes. I tried to end it on a lighter note. What's your problem?

 

[excelsiorlef]

God knows environmentalists will need some money too, so I'm sure they'll be very grateful for an influx of cash.

 

[Nafai1123]

Hillary is awesome. She can really help.

Hey "liberals", yeah you, the ones that don't believe that you judge people based on their gender, why don't YOU go the fuck away? That way YOU might actually help the cause.

Careful, you might trigger their male fragility.

 

[BruceCLea]

I'm sorry I think you're in the wrong thread.. the other Clinton is Satan thread is here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1367851


This article doesn't even quote Clinton it's Howard Dean doing all the talking.

I like Hillary Clinton and I think Bill was one of the greatest President's we've ever had. But her just coming out is going to put more emphasis on the election which our stupid fuck president is fixated on. She's got to go away. I don't hate her, I like her, but people REALLY HATE HER. The Dems need all the help and support we can get. She isn't helping. She won't help by being in the public. She can donate and fundraise, but she should do it all behind the scenes. She has to leave.

 

[Cocaloch]

debating about neoliberalism in between the fuck you and fuck off posts.... Congratulations

I don't understand why the debating part is a problem. I certainly don't think I've been rude in this thread. It's an important point because it's entered the discourse, whether or not anyone wants that to be true.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I have no idea how support of free trade and "open borders" gets mixed in with things like privatization of public services

Reeks of (((globalism))) tbh

All of them reflect market oriented principles. Free trade wants to create optimal markets by removing trade barriers to create competitive markets, open borders wants to create competitive labor markets, and privatization (and the corresponding austerity) wants to create market solutions to public goods rather than have the state provide them.

I mean, I'm pro-open borders and kinda pro-free trade so it's not all anti-socialist but it's all part of a reasonably coherent ideology.

just bought this shirt in preparation.

omg

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't understand why the debating part is a problem. I certainly don't think I've been rude in this thread.

Did I call you rude? Or even mention you at all?

Ohh I hope some money goes to Trans rights activists in Texas and North Carolina to fight the bathroom bills.

 

[DietRob]

I like Hillary Clinton and I think Bill was one of the greatest President's we've ever had. But her just coming out is going to put more emphasis on the election which our stupid fuck president is fixated on. She's got to go away. I don't hate her, I like her, but people REALLY HATE HER. The Dems need all the help and support we can get. She isn't helping. She won't help by being in the public. She can donate and fundraise, but she should do it all behind the scenes. She has to leave.

Hello.... this is what she's doing! Jesus.

You'd figure people with such strong opinions would read what they are getting so up in arms about.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I like Hillary Clinton and I think Bill was one of the greatest President's we've ever had. But her just coming out is going to put more emphasis on the election which our stupid fuck president is fixated on. She's got to go away. I don't hate her, I like her, but people REALLY HATE HER. The Dems need all the help and support we can get. She isn't helping. She won't help by being in the public. She can donate and fundraise, but she should do it all behind the scenes. She has to leave.

Hi this article is about Howard Dean speaking about a private citizens' initiative... he just happened to mention Clinton is working on it with him too...


Man could you imagine if some of the money went to anti-police brutality activists, I'm sure they'd have good use for some of this money

 

[TestOfTide]

I like Hillary Clinton and I think Bill was one of the greatest President's we've ever had. But her just coming out is going to put more emphasis on the election which our stupid fuck president is fixated on. She's got to go away. I don't hate her, I like her, but people REALLY HATE HER. The Dems need all the help and support we can get. She isn't helping. She won't help by being in the public. She can donate and fundraise, but she should do it all behind the scenes. She has to leave.

Again, Clinton is planning to do this shit being the scenes. She knows she can't be the actual face of the party.

Like yeah, Clinton SUCKS as rallying people. But if there is one thing she has been amazing at since at least 2007, it's fundraising.

Let Clinton gather the funds so that we have the money for a real 50 state strategy.

Hi this article is about Howard Dean speaking about a private citizens' initiative... he just happened to mention Clinton is working on it with him too...


Man could you imagine if some of the money went to anti-police brutality activists, I'm sure they'd have good use for some of this money

I'm mostly excited at the possibility of a fully funded 50 state strategy.

 

[BruceCLea]

Careful, you might trigger their male fragility.

Do you know how many conversations I've had with women where I'm Pro-Hillary and women are Anti-Hillary? Where I talk about what she believes in and would help them immeasurably in comparison to Trump and they still don't trust her?

It's baffling and upsetting. I don't like it at all. She makes people angry and irrational. That's not what this country needs right now. And it's absolutely misogyny in this country. But conservatives and moderate democrats rally against her. We can't have that. Seriously, we're on the cusp of getting moderate Republicans against Trump and she comes out of the fucking woodwork talking about the election again. IT'S FUCKING OVER. WE'RE ON THE BRINK OF PASSING AN AWFUL HEALTHCARE BILL, GOING INTO TRADE WARS AND POSSIBLY STARTING A NEW CONFLICT OVERSEAS. ALL EYES SHOULD BE ON HOW TRUMP IS FUCKING UP. THE ONE THING HE CAN ARGUABLY HANG HIS HAT ON IS HE BEAT HER AND HERE SHE COMES AGAIN. FUCK ME.

 

[D i Z]

God knows environmentalists will need some money too, so I'm sure they'll be very grateful for an influx of cash.

And she's in such a unique position where people are itching to contribute, but have no source or direction that they trust to throw money at. As much as people want to squabble about past slights, but there are a far larger number of responsible folk out there know that in our lifetimes we have got to do better. And she can pull it all in one giant net so very quickly and get shit moving.

 

[Sirpopopop]

a) Charters were just an example of a market reform for a public good she supports, not the whole sin itself. Same with the ACA, which is market-focused over being a public good, which she mostly endorsed as is until the platform was written and a public option got pushed by the Sanders delegates.

Being market focused, in and of itself, does not make something 'neoliberal' according to the classical definition. In that case, it's essentially reduce taxes, and reduce govenrment intervention. In the classical definition, the ACA and charter schools wouldn't be neoliberal at all.

In the definition you are employing, is any time the government works with the private sector, neoliberalism?

Good luck finding someone in the U.S. who isn't a neoliberal then.

b) I mean she changed her views as the pressures changed, especially in the primary, but in one the ~speeches~ she endorsed slashing spending and cutting the deficit as a means of stimulating growth.

Sure, that's cool, but her most recent view on the matter is to support Social Security. It's the same thing with TPP. We can argue back and forth on her true beliefs, but neither of us are HRC. All of we have to go by are the public statements.

c) I think neoliberal is pretty descriptive of her views and so I use it to describe her. It's not a 'pejorative' which I think is silly, but I don't like neoliberalism and think it's bad so I also don't like that she holds those views, in the same way I don't like neoconservatism but I don't think it's a 'pejorative' to call McCain a neocon. If people want to say they don't like socialism or social democracy then attack candidates for being socialists or social democrats, more power to them. I'll disagree because I believe in socialism, but I won't begrudge them for using the term when they clearly don't have a beef with socialism.

This is fair, but I do think your view on what makes someone neoliberal is far different from mine. Regardless, I do disagree with you here that one word dismissals of a person's platform are a valid attack angle for anyone.

 

[BruceCLea]

Hi this article is about Howard Dean speaking about a private citizens' initiative... he just happened to mention Clinton is working on it with him too...


Man could you imagine if some of the money went to anti-police brutality activists, I'm sure they'd have good use for some of this money

Then Howard Dean needs to shut the FUCK UP. Hillary said that Comey and Russia cost her the election and she's goddamn right. But she needs to be quiet.

 

[TestOfTide]

Then Howard Dean needs to shut the FUCK UP. Hillary said that Comey and Russia cost her the election and she's goddamn right. But she needs to be quiet.

You know what. I will actually concede that Howard Dean runs his mouth way too much and he shouldn't have let everyone know that a controversial figure would be funding things behind the scenes.

 

[MrGerbils]

Guess expecting your politicians to actually (entirely?) represent constituents is too high of an expectation for you.

I believe (and think Im justified in believing) that there are systematic reasons why Democrats seemingly suck in terms of policy outcomes despite demographic and policy stance advantages.

For example. Today medicare for all has an approval rating of over 50 percent. (Nationwide , higher in democratic constituents)... yet how many Congress people support it?

I want Democrats to win. Part of that is assuming popular positions. It's not just a disagreement on policy, but politics and strategy

Being a democrat means insisting that nothing good is possible and then being shocked when voters don't find your vision of the future compelling.

 

[Not]

We somehow need to make being called sexist just as bad as being called racist. Then maybe a woman would finally get fucking elected.

 

[BruceCLea]

You know what. I will actually concede that Howard Dean runs his mouth way too much and he shouldn't have let everyone know that a controversial figure would be funding things behind the scenes.

he blew his own run by having stupid shit come out of his mouth.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Then Howard Dean needs to shut the FUCK UP. Hillary said that Comey and Russia cost her the election and she's goddamn right. But she needs to be quiet.

Hi this is about funding thinks like maybe LGBT adoption groups to fight religious laws in southern states if you'd like to bitch about Hillary's interview and tell her to shut up when she's actually speaking instead of when she's not that's over here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136785

 

[Zubz]

She won the popular vote in the primaries.

She won the popular vote in the general election.

YOU may not like her, but Hillary Clinton is a popular figure. Step out of your bubble.

It's not that I dislike her; I happily voted for her, & would've done so even if she was against an innocuous opponent. It's just that GAF's one of the few places where I see an overwhelming abundance of support for her, especially if we're counting real life (Weren't we, like, one of the Top 10 pro-Clinton sites during the election? Even including her own sites?). Elsewhere, it's maybe 1 or 2 impassioned supporters with the rest just being modest respect.

Plus, regardless of what you guys believe, she's definitely been painted as "the establishment" to both the far left & the on-the-fence conservative, who are the people who need to be involved the most. I'm glad she's getting involved, but I definitely don't see her as a good fit for the front lines. Test Of Tide has it best with her being perfect for fundraising, but rallies would be better suited for someone like Warren or (Dare I say it) Sanders.

 

[Suikoguy]

he blew his own run by having stupid shit come out of his mouth.

err, what?

 

[Nafai1123]

Do you know how many conversations I've had with women where I'm Pro-Hillary and women are Anti-Hillary? Where I talk about what she believes in and would help them immeasurably in comparison to Trump and they still don't trust her?

It's baffling and upsetting. I don't like it at all. She makes people angry and irrational. That's not what this country needs right now. And it's absolutely misogyny in this country. But conservatives and moderate democrats rally against her. We can't have that. Seriously, we're on the cusp of getting moderate Republicans against Trump and she comes out of the fucking woodwork talking about the election again. IT'S FUCKING OVER. WE'RE ON THE BRINK OF PASSING AN AWFUL HEALTHCARE BILL, GOING INTO TRADE WARS AND POSSIBLY STARTING A NEW CONFLICT OVERSEAS. ALL EYES SHOULD BE ON HOW TRUMP IS FUCKING UP. THE ONE THING HE CAN ARGUABLY HANG HIS HAT ON IS HE BEAT HER AND HERE SHE COMES AGAIN. FUCK ME.

I don't disagree with anything here, but her funding behind the scenes is a nothing burger imo. And cmon, you really think were going to capture moderate Republicans with progressive policies? Ain't happening.

All eyes should be on Trump, which is exactly why this thread being 20 pages because people are FREAKING OUT about "neoliberal Shillery" is so frustrating.

If simply hearing her name fuels deep-seeded hatred within someone, they should seek counseling. Seriously.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Jesus Christ this thread's deplorable. As an outsider, you Americans absolutely deserve the hell out of Trump if this is how you guys respond to support.

 

[TestOfTide]

I'm glad she's getting involved, but I definitely don't see her as a good fit for the front lines. Test Of Tide has it best with her being perfect for fundraising, but rallies would be better suited for someone like Warren or (Dare I say it) Sanders.

Well then you should be HAPPY about the OP news then. Because that's exactly what the article describes her as doing.