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Holy Balls. The first two Alien movies are amazing.
- Thread starter Ultima_5
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If Jeunet had directed Aliens and Cameron had directed Ressurection, you'd be praising Whedon.
Of course, in that scenario, we would never get to Ressurection because Jeunet would have torpedoed the franchise two movies early.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Again, you're missing the point entirely. You're under the assumption that the T800 going back in time will automatically change the future, when it is the death of Sarah Connor that will change the future. The death of Sarah Connor cannot occur if Reese is allowed to go back. THEY ARRIVE AT THE SAME POINT IN TIME. The T800 does not 'Get there first'.
The reason nothing changes when the Terminator goes back, is precisely because no action has been taken to stop Kyle Reese/blow the factory before anybody else can go through.
Are you trying to tell me that the script for Resurrection is on par/better than Aliens? The script had a very big influence with what made Aliens so good.
Nappuccino
Member
Nappuccino
Member
The T-800 absolutely gets there first, or do you not understand how this shit works?
Because that is what it sounds like to me.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
You clearly don't get how it works. You're under the assumption that this works like Star Trek 2009. It doesn't. It works like BTTF. There is a specific date and time set on the Time Displacement Field. You're trying to tell me that the T800 arrives 'first' to 2:03am, February 2nd, 1984 and that Kyle Reese arrives much later - his time being - OH WAIT 2:03am, February 2nd, 1984. Because that is the destination time on the field they enter.
They arrive at the same time. The Terminator can't arrive first if they arrive at the same time.
Nappuccino
Member
I'm not saying "this is how it works in the movie." I'm saying "this is how it should work in the first place"
Here is a diagram I made up to help you understand what I'm on about.
(excuse the shitty handwriting)
No, I'd say Aliens is the better script, but not by as large a margin as you would give it.
Anyway, doesn't change what I was agreeing with, that I'd like to see someone other than Cameron writing the Avatar sequels.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
So many of the lines in Resurrection made me cringe. The rest is terrible, too, but a lot of the blame lies with the shitty script and comic relief dialogue. Fuck Whedon.
"Fork"
"Fuck"
"Chicks, man..." (or whatever he says)
Hilarious!
Poeple talk about how they didn't care about the marines in Aliens, but I couldn't think of a more unlikeable or one dimensional group of people than the crew (actually, everyone) in Alien Resurrection.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Seek help, Nappa. Your time line 2 can't happen because they didn't blow the factory behind the T800. The second they had blown the factory time would change under your rules. But they didn't, so the T800 isn't allowed to change shit. The T800 can't arrive first to the exact same time and date, therefore he cannot kill Sarah and change the future.
And yes, you're making another timeline that
1. The films don't abide by.
and
2. Would only cause problems.
The film's cyclical timeline makes perfect sense. People just seem to have a lot of trouble thinking of time as anything other than a straight line.
And yes, you're making another timeline that
1. The films don't abide by.
and
2. Would only cause problems.
The film's cyclical timeline makes perfect sense. People just seem to have a lot of trouble thinking of time as anything other than a straight line.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
Dan Hedaya was my most disliked, i think.
That shot with him reaching around almost cross-eyed to pull out part of his brain is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Ron Perlman was also awful, and I normally like him.
edit : To be fair to Whedon, he has actually distanced himself from the movie saying they butchered his script, but I just don't think it was up to scratch to begin with, from what I read before the film came out.
Nappuccino
Member
your version of the timeline only works if nothing was ever going to change. Which makes the movies pointless
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
If the Terminator films present cases for a cyclical timeline, then there is no reason to bitch.
Humans just have trouble thinking about the idea that there was no starting point. What caused the catalyst to the big bang? What caused that?
A cyclical timeline says it always was.
Except that the audience doesn't know what is or isn't changing.
And your version of time still possesses no change unless they blow the factory before Kyle can go through. I hope you understand that now.
That plus the whole living planet concept, the neural interfaces, etc. Conceptually a lot of what the movie brought to the table was new to movies, it was just wrapped In a story that was anything but new.
Nappuccino
Member
Uh... gaia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
And the neural interfaces are just an organic version of Cyberpunk.
Nappuccino
Member
My version does have change. Now the Terminators win.
Not exactly a positive one, but it is a change. Your version doesn't have change which, upon first viewing you don't know and allows the movie interesting. But on later viewings all dramatic impact is completely removed. It isn't even a matter of knowing what happens. It is knowing that nothing else could happen.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Your version only changes if the factory is blown. Unless you're going by Star Trek 09 time travel rules. Is that what you're doing? Just fucking say so. Because that is most definitely not the system by which the movies are operating.
Nappuccino
Member
Your version assumes that there is no starting point and that it is cyclical yet T2 (particularly the extended version) implies that isn't the case. However T3 (which your diagram doesn't include) puts things back in the cyclical realm. So... which are you arguing for then?
T1= inevitability
T2= possibility for change unless i am remembering things wrong.
Also why does the factory have to blow for Reese to not make it there. that just seems like an absurd assumption.
edit: edit: I mean, it seems like changes to the future should happen relatively instantly given that Skynet can quickly realize that they failed and send back another Terminator. If the changes happen fast enough for them to do that, why would Reese be able to make it into a time machine when, going by that tidbit, he shouldn't be able to make it there at all?
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Yes, changes to the future SHOULD happen instantly. But the T800 isn't able to make that change if the possibility exists for Kyle Reese to arrive at the exact same point and stop him. Nothing changes because the T800's presence in the past doesn't mean squat unless he is the only one to go through.
And yes, you're misremembeing T2 if you think it shows that anything has been changed. My cyclical timeline diagram above addresses everything in T2. Sarah and Reese's hope that they can change the future does not = them changing the future. There is nothing done to suggest they change anything. T1 and T2 are the only films consistent with one another. T3 and T4 changes things, but they're not canon/don't exist, so I don't include them.
Nappuccino
Member
So if it should happen instantly, by your own words, don't you see the issue here? Reese wouldn't have had the time to go through the device if the changes were instant.
I mean it is one thing to just roll with it and say "whatever, it isn't meant to be a logic proof time travel movie." It is another to say "well the t-800 didn't change the past fast enough so the future stayed the same for awhile" which is just a huge leap in logic that doesn't make sense and isn't established in the movie to my knowledge.
And I guess if T2 doesn't have any actual change I'm just misremembering it. I haven't sat through it in years.
Anton Sugar
Member
This thread sucks now.
Nappuccino
Member
Sorry mate. I'm probably just about done with this timeline talk unless I get some pretty good answers about my main problem with it.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
That isn't what I'm saying at all. You need to read and actually think about what I'm saying. Its not about the T800 changing the past 'fast' enough. Its about him not doing ANYTHING before Kyle Reese gets there, because they arrive in the past at the SAME TIME. The reason absolutely nothing changes as soon as the T800 goes through, is because the time displacement field still exists - and within it, the fate of Kyle Reese to stop the Terminator. If the time displacement field is removed the very second the Terminator goes through, then yes, everything changes instantly, because Sarah Connor's death is guaranteed.
The future ONLY changes if Sarah Connor dies. Sarah Connor cannot die if Reese is allowed to go through. Therefore, the time displacement field must be destroyed before Reese is allowed to go through for any instantaneous changes.
The Terminator does not kill Sarah Connor in the intervening time between Reese deciding to go through, because they both arrive at the exact same time in the past. Only the removal of Reese's existence in the past guarantees changes.
Nappuccino
Member
And I'm done here. With Sculli at least.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Nappuccino
Member
You didn't win. Unless you think deciding to stop slamming your face into a wall means that the wall has won.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Fine, but stop pretending like it makes any kind of sense. It's intrinsically paradoxical. The Big Bang doesn't require the universe to already exist to cause itself, and discussions of acausality relating to existence are not comparable to events which are themselves subsets of space and time and therefore require explanations for why they are the way they are. If you want to argue that this doesn't detract from the movie, by all means. I actually agree that the time travel stuff being paradoxical doesn't hurt the film. But that doesn't mean it makes sense.
I have no idea what either of you are arguing about, and will therefore pretend like what I just said is a counterpoint to whatever the fuck is going on here and just sort of hope for the best. I don't even know if you're denying that it's paradoxical! What a shame that DIDN'T READ LOL is a banned meme 
The thing about this argument is that it really does depend on how you're thinking about time continuity.
Napuccino: as soon as the T-800 jumped through, the past was changed.
Scullibundo: the past wasn't changed as long as the possibility existed for Kyle Reese to jump through.
Napuccino: as soon as the T-800 jumped through, the past was changed.
Scullibundo: the past wasn't changed as long as the possibility existed for Kyle Reese to jump through.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Well Nappa's thought supposes that one can arrive 'first' to a pre-set time destination. Which makes no sense whatsoever - even under his own theory.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
Terminator has a bunch of problems with the way it deals with time travel. It somewhat cleans itself up because there really is only one timeline. T2 comes and shits on that though. It's much better for the enjoyment of the films to not spend too much time analyzing it.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
T2 doesn't mess up anything. The hope to change the future does not = changing the future.
Nappuccino
Member
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
How can you arrive first to 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984? Do you realize what you're saying? It is a pre-determined destination time that both of them arrive at.
If T800 arrives at 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984
and
Kyle Reese arrives at 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984
in what sort of twisted logic does the T800 'arrive first'?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
There are so many ways this could turn out. If we assume quantum-forking (type four) timelines, then when each time-travel event occurs, a new timeline is created. So you end up with the original timeline (no changes, skynet / Connor all occur organically as a result of regular cause and effect), the timeline in which the Terminator alone goes back in time and kills Sarah, and then the timeline in which Reese follows the Terminator back and we get T1. Reese and the Terminator's arrivals are not logically inconsistent even if the future changes then, because the original timeline where they came from is preserved and cannot be altered, ensuring they arrive.
Assuming you are capable of accessing your own past (single timeline theories), then contradictions and paradoxes can occur. Whether or not the timeline should change "instantly" or not is based around two things - can the timeline change ever, and is time predetermined? If the timeline cannot change ever, then predestination is automatically assumed. But predestination does not automatically assume that time travel can or cannot make changes. If we have predestination in a universe which does allow time-travel related changes, then the thing should have instantly switched as soon as the first time travel event occurred. If not, then we get what we see in T1, a fixed, unchanging timeline where time travelers never-the-less go about with their business. I must reiterate though that this sort of universe doesn't make much sense logically, even though it's fairly popular in fiction.
If you have a spacetime bridge to a fixed point in the past from shifting points in the future, as described, if the first person goes through and makes changes, then the second person never gets to go through at all. Since they can't go through (because the past has changed precluding these circumstances from ever occurring) then they never arrive in the past, even though if they DID they would arrive simultaneously with the initial traveler. The distinction then is, as I said, whether the past can be changed at all. If it can't, then the second man can follow the first through, but if it can, then he doesn't.
Nappuccino
Member
...
the only way your scenario would work is if Reese going back in time didn't hinge on
a) there being a revolution
b) Sarah Connor or John Connor's Existence
c) Any other changes that the t-800 would make to that timeline.
Because the present would already be changed the instant the t-800 leaves. If Reese had no connection to anything (say he was leaving 300 years in the fututure and wasn't affected by anything that skynet did, then yes, arriving at the same time is fine.
But because everything Reese does is intricately tied into the t-800 and its goals, the one who goes into the past first is incredibly important.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
In the next Terminator, they should mention that Skynet got the blueprints for the time machine from the memory banks of the T-800 that got backed up prior to being destroyed in T2.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
And that is exactly what I'm saying, Deafy. The interim period after the T800 goes through would change instantly IF he was assured to change the past upon arrival. That assurance only exists if Reese can't go through after him. The field closing or anything that would stop Reese going through is what would cause an instant change.
I understand that he's trying to say that Reese is stopped from going through by the very fact that time changes as soon as the T800 goes through. But my point is that change doesn't happen whilst the portal remains open, so nothing changes after he goes through and Kyle is still able to follow him.
All of this wouldn't make a difference if Reese had managed to jump through first. Because all he'd be able to do is wait. Nothing about the T-800 jumping through could be changed by Reese.
Silly Cameron for not thinking of that.
It's kinda like Jumanji.
Silly Cameron for not thinking of that.
It's kinda like Jumanji.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
If Kyle went through the field first and the T800 went in after him, the exact same thing would happen, unless the T800 got a glimpse of Kyle prior and knew him to be a threat.
I mean that if Kyle went first, there wouldn't be any problem when you look at time-travel from Napuccino's perspective. Both time-travel theories would be satisfied.
What I'm saying is that both you and Napuccino could be right. It depends entirely on what kind of time-travel theory you subscribe to.
Nappuccino
Member
and I would have had zero complaints with it.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Not really. Because in Nappa's twisted mind, Kyle going through first means he arrives first, even if they arrive at the EXACT SAME TIME. But going with his thinking, Kyle would most likely meet Sarah and - having nothing to save her from would probably be shot dead by cops or maced in the face before he can convince her he traveled across time for and and smang her.
Nappuccino
Member
Reese was trying to save her. If he gets there first the timeline wouldn't change. So the t-800 would be able to come to the same point in time with no issue.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Nappa I need you to answer this question and this question alone. Because you seem to have ignored it the last few times.
Do you really see nothing wrong with saying that
If the T800 arrives at 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984
and
Kyle arrives at 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984
the T800 arrives first?
Because to me that makes absolutely zero sense. But this is what you have been saying. So forgetting everything else about who changed what. I need you to address this point.
Do you really see nothing wrong with saying that
If the T800 arrives at 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984
and
Kyle arrives at 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984
the T800 arrives first?
Because to me that makes absolutely zero sense. But this is what you have been saying. So forgetting everything else about who changed what. I need you to address this point.
Nappuccino
Member
Sigh.
In theory no. If two people took a time machine at different times (let's just say 2 hours apart) to the same point in time (for this example 2:03am, Feb 2nd, 1984) then yes, they would arrive at the same time.
However, in this case, what the t-800 wants to do is destroy the possibility of resistance and, by that fact Reese's ability to even get to a time machine much less the need for a time machine to even exist!. The t-800 leaves first and changes the past. If he changes the past then Reese cannot go back in time because his ability to do so is removed.
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