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[DirgeExtinction]

Some of y'all need to take a step back from your "that's it? that's not offensive" POV and understand that marginalized groups or people of color have to deal with "small" offenses like this continually, throughout their lives. That shit adds up.



I don't doubt there wasn't ill will involved, but that doesn't really matter.

I'm sorry, but how is anything in this game in any way an offense?

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

How about it's just a good story that borrows elements from all cultures, genders and races and gives them all equally significant presence within the world

I give it 10 yrs before we need to start learning Gun Kata

 

[Crossing Eden]

Do you complain when American/Canadian developers "appropriate" German/Russian/Italian culture? Remember the word here is culture.

How often do you think this happens?

Are you really saying that we shouldn't criticize or scoff at those saying the gameplay of Horizon is cultural appropriation of native/first nations culture? Gonzalez even said his team looked at different tribal groups to sort of make an amalgam.

I'm sorry, but how is anything in this game in any way an offense?

Try reading the actual article kthx. It LITERALLY outlines exactly why the terms used are problematic

I may not agree but it's good to listen to other peopla's perspectives. Honestly, I'm starting to hate the angry reactions more than the 'over-sensitive' comments. Can't anybody keep their cool? Nobody's going to take your video games away.

Exactly. It's ok to like a game and acknowledge the problematic aspects.

 

[Anung]

So Native Americans have the sole ownership on the word "brave"?

Within the context of the game and it's setting its not ridiculous to see how "Brave" might be seen within the Native American context and not just the word brave as in courageous. It's clearly has Native American inspirations.

It's the height of bullshit privilege to tell these groups how to feel or not feel about the potential appropriation and stereotyping of their cultures.

 

[ponpo]

To be fair there is probably nothing on earth that hasn't been criticized via a 'Medium essay'

 

[shandy706]

I view games like I view movies.

Outside of blatant attempts at hate speech (and in the right context that can be there), the art is free to use any pallet or canvas to paint its picture.

In a hypothetical future, a collapsed civilization could certainly use and draw these words from the history of the humans that came before it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I view games like I view movies.

Outside of blatant attempts at hate speech (and in the right context that can be there), the art is free to use any pallet or canvas to paint its picture.

In a hypothetical future, a collapsed civilization could certainly use and draw these words from the history of the human civilization.

Just because art is free doesn't mean artists are free from criticism goddamn.

 

[Anton Sugar]

But where does one draw the line? Can't a character in a piece of fiction be called "brave" or "warrior"?

Well, as I said in my next post, it's not easy to draw a line anywhere. However, as long as people of color/other cultures are marginalized and treated as an "other", it's important to have this discussion, listen to them, and try to gain some perspective as to what and why it's offensive.

I'm sorry, but how is anything in this game in any way an offense?

That comment was mostly directed at people playing dumb by pretending to not understand why the use of "brave" can be offensive to Native Americans.

They're not offended by the very existence of the word "brave". They're offended by the use of it in a game that takes influence from various tribal cultures, including Natives.

Within the context of the game and it's setting its not ridiculous to see how "Brave" might be seen within the Native American context and not just the word brave as in courageous. It's clearly has Native American inspirations.

It's the height of bullshit privilege to tell these groups how to feel or not feel about the potential appropriation and stereotyping of their cultures.

This, basically.

I view games like I view movies.

Outside of blatant attempts at hate speech (and in the right context that can be there), the art is free to use any pallet or canvas to paint its picture.

In a hypothetical future, a collapsed civilization could certainly use and draw these words from the history of the humans that came before it.

I agree 100%.

I also think that anything is free to be criticized. Artistic freedom doesn't grant immunity from critique.

 

[shandy706]

Just because art is free doesn't mean artists are free from criticism goddamn.

I didn't say that. Art criticism is 100% fine. People make a living doing it even.

I went to art school and work in graphic arts and CAD myself.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Why is it bad to draw inspiration from actual cultures for a work of fiction?
Isn't this basically whats happening in almost all fiction?

 

[Jawbreaker]

Why is it bad to draw inspiration from actual cultures for a work of fiction?
Isn't this basically whats happening in almost all fiction?

I don't think it's a problem if it's treated with respect, but there are people who think it's a bad thing wholesale. As always, criticism is fair game, but no one should feel obligated to agree or disagree. The idea is to listen to a different perspective, hopefully gain a new understanding/perspective, or simply disagree.

 

[Harlequin]

Cultural appropriation and cultural exchange or appreciation are two different things. You're mixing up "alternative" with "opposite"...maybe.

No one is demanding for cultures to be kept completely separate and siloed off--but, historically (at least in the US), cultural appropriation is something that is frequently done to the detriment of the original ethnic/cultural group that it was taken from.

Truth be told, it's not an easy distinction to make--but that doesn't mean we should dismiss the complaints of numerous marginalized groups just because we don't understand it or it's difficult.

Fair enough, though I would think that those types of things would already fall into other categories of offensive? I mean, things like using objects associated with a specific people's culture to spread negative stereotypes about that people, for example. The offensive thing in that situation would be the perpetuation of the stereotype, not the fact that sth was "culturally appropriated" to do so. Unless you mean other types of situations that I can't think of right now in which case I'd appreciate an example or two.

 

[Joeku]

I'm sorry, but how is anything in this game in any way an offense?

Nora culture is clearly an amalgamation of Native American ones.

Game gets pats on the back for being diverse.

Game casts no Native Americans.

Spoiler

And if your response to this is "well there probably wouldn't have been any there" it's because we killed almost all of them and turned their cultures into sports mascosts and genericized settings like this.

Killer Instinct recently did this the right way, btw: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1327250

Edit: To echo what other people said, it wasn't done out of malice, but yeah, Native Americans are forgotten often even in stories that take inspiration from them.

 

[Mojoraisin]

It's the height of bullshit privilege to tell these groups how to feel or not feel about the potential appropriation and stereotyping of their cultures.

It's not bullshit privilege. What's bullshit is that you have to belong to a certain group to be able to discuss the subject matter. It's a freaking disaster how easily offended people are today.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Why does that suck? It's so true. It IS almost impossible today. That is what really sucks.

Because it's an awfully dismissive comment that doesn't address the person's issues with the terms being used.

There's no excuse when Killer Instinct avoided this.

 

[Madness]

Try reading the actual article kthx. It LITERALLY outlines exactly why the terms used are problematic.

Lacina also calls out reviewers for not picking up on it in their critique of the game and its appropriation of Native culture.

I read this in the OP. Don't need to give Polygon clicks but I have also read elsewhere a few people mention that the game itself is appropriation of native american culture because of the gameplay, not just the terms like Savages and Brave which you can make the case for are loaded. Also, no need to be snarky or talk down with your dismissive 'k thnx' as if you are some moral authority all the time. Chill.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I didn't say that. Art criticism is 100% fine. People make a living doing it even.

I went to art school and work in graphic arts and CAD myself.

That's a weird statement to make in the context of this thread

I read this in the OP. Don't need to give Polygon clicks but I have also read elsewhere a few people mention that the game itself is appropriation of native american culture because of the gameplay, not just the terms like Savages and Brave which you can make the case for are loaded. Also, no need to be snarky or talk down with your dismissive 'k thnx' as if you are some moral authority all the time. Chill.

Ffs read the article instead of skimming the OP. There's an article within the article. Get over the "don't wanna give polygon clicks" shenanigans. It's a video game website.�

 

[Madame M]

It's named that for a reason

I have no idea what you are referring to with "it" I named three different things lol

 

[Loomer]

Is Neutral Milk Hotel an actual videogame?

It's a game about loving Jesus Christ.

 

[Mawile]

Read the article a bit and did some googling about the usage of "braves", and I'm still a bit confused. From what I'm assuming from what I've read, the offensive part comes from that braves = portrayed as savages?

Perhaps someone can explain this better to me as I'm having a hard time grasping it.

 

[platina]

Everything triggers nowadays.

 

[Madame M]

I don't take cultural criticism of video games seriously unless the person making me "woke" has some sweet ass hoop earrings

 

[KazenY2J]

I wonder how many people here actually read the article.

 

[Loudninja]

I don't think it's a problem if it's treated with respect, but there are people who think it's a bad thing wholesale. As always, criticism is fair game, but no one should feel obligated to agree or disagree. The idea is to listen to a different perspective, hopefully gain a new understanding/perspective, or simply disagree.

Agreed.

 

[horkrux]

I've never heard of the term 'cultural appropriation' until now, but if I understand it right, hasn't it been going on for like as long as mankind exists? Seems to me like this is simply how culture works.
You like certain elements, so you incorporate it into your stuff and give it new context. If this was taboo, we would just reinforce cultural segregation.

 

[phantasmic_glaive]

The phrase Horizon Zero Dawn just sounds like three random words stringed together, like Tokyo Mirage Sessions or Neutral Milk Hotel

Horizon: Zero Dawn

That's the name. Play the game and it might make sense.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I wonder how many people here actually read the article.

Like most threads of this nature, very few. They still love say how wrong they are though.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

I always saw the tribes as a way of going back to our prehistoric/Neanderthal-ish ways, not necessarily Native American culture.

 

[MagnaderAlpha]

Brave is a bad word now?

Wonder what they'd think about the Zodiac Braves or the Four Braves of Dawn?

 

[Crossing Eden]

I've never heard of the term 'cultural appropriation' until now, but if I understand it right, hasn't it been going on for like as long as mankind exists? Seems to me like this is simply how culture works.
You like certain elements, so you incorporate it into your stuff and give it new context. If this was taboo, we would just reinforce cultural segregation.

It's already been explained ITT that cultural appropriation and cultural exchange are two different things, keep up. And bullshit, it's 2017 and you've never heard such a commonly used term?

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

Just because art is free doesn't mean artists are free from criticism goddamn.

Doesn't really read like he was trying to say that at all.

Never registered as insulting in my playtime so far. The "braves" felt clearly pulled from Native American language but all of the groups in the game so far seem to be patchwork quilts of all sorts of different cultures and dress and customs.

Anyways - it was a good response from that GG guy. Better than a lot of other companies and such firing off barely thought through knee jerk responses on twitter and shit like that.

 

[WordsintheWater]

I always saw the tribes as a way of going back to our prehistoric/Neanderthal-ish ways, not necessarily Native American culture.

That's how I've viewed them in my 25 hours of playtime as well

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

This is your daily reminder that it's ok to like, or in Horizon's case, really love a game and criticize some of it's choices.

 

[Skeletron]

Seems like Guerrilla is being attacked from all sides about the apparent political and social philosophies it carries. Right wing gamers all over calling it SJW propaganda, and on the other side it's now being accused of cultural appropriation

How about it's just a good story that borrows elements from all cultures, genders and races and gives them all equally significant presence within the world

This.

For fuck's sake.

 

[Mawile]

It's already been explained ITT that cultural appropriation and cultural exchange are two different things, keep up. And bullshit, it's 2017 and you've never heard such a commonly used term?

In fairness, I'm left leaning and I've only heard about it recently.

 

[Shredderi]

I give it 10 yrs before we need to start learning Gun Kata

Got a bit of a chuckle out of me.

I always saw the tribes as a way of going back to our prehistoric/Neanderthal-ish ways, not necessarily Native American culture.

Hah, me too This whole time I've been playing I've thought that the inspiration came mainly from some kind of advanced caveman hunter-gatherer era.

 

[M0nochromatic]

I understand the concern, but the game itself shows no evidence of appropriation. Inspiration, yes, but not appropriation. At no point in the game did I ever detect disrespect or theft of culture, and the article doesn't make much of a case for it either. I read it, and it focuses more on the people talking about the game more then the game itself.

Terminology can be problematic, certainly. In the game itself, these terms are not used disparagingly or inappropriately. So I'm not sure where the harm lies? They shouldn't use the words at all? If that's the point then that's fine, I can get that.

Reasonable response by Gonzalez.

As an aside, it doesn't surprise me at all that Gonzalez was the lead writer on Honest Hearts, which carries a pretty similar vibe.

This is interesting to learn. The writing in all of New Vegas and its DLCs was outstanding, but Honest Hearts was one of my personal favorites.

 

[WordsintheWater]

This is your daily reminder that it's ok to like, or in Horizon's case, really love a game and criticize some of it's choices.

I love it and I've criticized it, but I haven't found anything that I thought was offensive. I'm not a part of that culture so I can't disagree with how they personally feel about the characters in the game.

 

[P90]

I didn't know terms like "primitive" or "tribal" could be offensive...

Everything is offensive nowadays.

 

[Doukou]

Read the article a bit and did some googling about the usage of "braves", and I'm still a bit confused. From what I'm assuming from what I've read, the offensive part comes from that braves = portrayed as savages?

Perhaps someone can explain this better to me as I'm having a hard time grasping it.

I think the problem comes from fact that Braves is a term that was given to Native American warriors by foreigners, it used to mean that you were a Noble Savage, if you weren't a brave you were a bad one in a sense.
Trying to find the history of the word is annoying, stupid Atlanta Braves.

 

[travisbickle]

It feels a little strange how this society so closely resembles North American Native society, yeah.

I wouldnt call it spoilers because it's explained early on:

But there's a civilization that is led by kings chosen by a sun god so I'd probably relate it more to what we know of Mesopotamia.

 

[Crooked16th]

I didn't know terms like "primitive" or "tribal" could be offensive...

A glass of water will soon be offensive.

 

[Mawile]

I think the problem comes from fact that Braves is a term that was given to Native American warriors by foreigners, it used to mean that you were a Noble Savage, if you weren't a brave you were a bad one in a sense.
Trying to find the history of the word is annoying, stupid Atlanta Braves.

Ah, I see. That makes more sense.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

So Native Americans have the sole ownership on the word "brave"?

If you ain't got nothing good, say naythin, so I guess I'll peace outta this topic before I get upset

 

[alexbull_uk]

I think the problem comes from fact that Braves is a term that was given to Native American warriors by foreigners, it used to mean that you were a Noble Savage, if you weren't a brave you were a bad one in a sense.

Hmm. See, I had no idea that 'brave' had any kind of negative connotation until this post.

Is it possible that this is more of a "oh shit we didn't realize" type thing?

 

[Kid Ying]

I don't know... We usually ask for more diverse casts and all, but when that happens, we complain about cultural appropriation? We can't have it both ways.

Never played Horizon, but it looks like a game that did good on its representativity.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

I think the problem comes from fact that Braves is a term that was given to Native American warriors by foreigners, it used to mean that you were a Noble Savage, if you weren't a brave you were a bad one in a sense.
Trying to find the history of the word is annoying, stupid Atlanta Braves.

Huh. I had no idea. That's very interesting to find out.

 

[Madame M]

A glass of water will soon be offensive.

I hate water hoarders

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

This is going well.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I love Horizon, but her criticism is fair and understandable. Hopefully GG does better in the future