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Horizon criticized by Native American writer for "brave", "savage", other terms
- Thread starter KyleOnTheRun
- Start date
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Moms_Spaghetti
Banned
This polygon writer, Julia Alexander, almost always has some factual, easily googled error in her articles. Literally almost every week. One small example I remember was a headline about The Jungle Book saying something like "Jon Favreau the director of Iron Man 3 knocks if out of the park with Jungle Book" the reason that was ridiculous to me was 3 was the only iron man favreau DIDN'T direct.
I wish I could remember more, but trust me, whenever I see a glaring error in my RSS feed from polygon, 99% of the time it's good ole Julia. I get they have to pump out a ton of articles, but cmon, try just a little harder...
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This is insane to me
Can someone add this to the OP since people refuse to read the article which outlines it?
To be fair, pretty much any game that uses neo-classical or neo-romanticism in their score is appropriating German and/or French culture.
And they apparently have sole ownership of tribal societies. Humanity regresses back to pre-bronze age, and they revert to tribal systems. Why is that a problem? And the term "savage" is something some people in the more advanced societies call Aloy and her tribe. Not at all different from how the Romans called less advanced European tribes barbarians and savages.
There is no win to be had. The post modern left is the worst plague that has ever infected the left, and largely because of them we are now seeing a ressurgence of the alt right all over the world.
I feel like people are knee jerk rejecting this without giving the author the benefit of the doubt here.
The complaint isn't just that they're using some terms, it's that a large part of the world building is lifted wholesale from native Americans (along with other cultures) but then gives that background to people who don't have that cultural background. The author's arguing that they want to use native culture (including terms) without including native people.
Also, people complaining about people calling everything offensive, the author is pretty fair. They say specifically that they're just asking people to try harder, not trying at them.
The complaint isn't just that they're using some terms, it's that a large part of the world building is lifted wholesale from native Americans (along with other cultures) but then gives that background to people who don't have that cultural background. The author's arguing that they want to use native culture (including terms) without including native people.
Also, people complaining about people calling everything offensive, the author is pretty fair. They say specifically that they're just asking people to try harder, not trying at them.
Even 'positive' stereotyping is still stereotyping. The Image of Native Americans as that of noble savages is still a harmful one as it portrays them as less than human. It's a caricature and no different than any other offensive view of a culture.
...except the entire reason it was criticized was that there isn't any representation; the cast isn't diverse but the game still uses these terms. You're complaining about something that isn't happening here.
But, also, not all representation is good representation. It is absolutely valid to want more diverse casts and also criticize things with diverse casts that fuck up. We can absolutely have it both ways because there is nuance to this kind of criticism.
-Mutsukki-
Member
How exactly would they "do better"? By not using the word "brave" in that context? By not having characters use offensive words?
I'm glad it's not just me. I used to be really into this kind of discussion, but I've so far taken a step back because we're constantly asking for perfection when in reality there is none, a good thing can be spun into a bad one with whatever view you want
Heckler456
Banned
Isn't that a little different when the game isn't actually about native americans? Hard to stereotype something you don't actually portray.
DirgeExtinction
Member
Sure, maybe the word "Brave" shouldn't be used as a title. But tribalism has existed since forever. In Horizon, humanity is going back to that, regardless of ethnicity.
Explained is a somewhat generous term. It was pointed out more than it was actually explained, really. (Unless you're not referring to the post I think you're referring to and I missed a post where it actually was explained.)
I don't think he's wrong that there is a culture of this sort of criticism on the internet, but I also think it's hard to not see someone pointing that out in response to being criticized as an attempt to deflect the criticism. You don't say "everyone's so critical" to a criticism you think is legitimate, and I think in this case it would have been better to just offer your explanation for what you did and leave it at that.
While the concerns are worth discussing, I think it's also important to flag that Guerilla Games is based in Northern Europe and, as such, is far less likely to identify issues like this. It certainly doesn't give them carte Blanche to make inappropriate or offensive comments or use such language, but it also doesn't mean we should hold them to the same standard as a North American dev were they to tackle the same matters.
And make the main protagonist a white guy with blonde hair and blue eyes just to be safe.
Was just thinking that I could kind of see them just reverting back to white male protags and white casts xD
I should have worded that better; I was trying to use the wording of the poster I was quoting (and I have admittedly not played the game yet). Specifically, the lack of Native American representation. The poster I was quoting was acting like the diverse cast was being criticized when that's not what's being talked about here.
I'd definitely be interested in reading a piece that props up Horizon's depictions as a positive, so hopefully someone out there's thinking on that. Until then, this is currently my line of thinking:
I think there's a point to be made in that appropriating aspects of Native and indigenous culture to use for a dystopian setting, as Horizon does, implies that this is what human society would "revert" to in the absence of the dominant, modern, Western, and "White." Without the everpresence of our smartphones and fast food joints, we apparently start talking about tree spirits and naming rituals. It infers Native culture is some how a base, "primitive" level of civilization in comparison.
Personally, it doesn't seem to me that there is any intent by the developers to show Native or indigenous culture in a negative way; however, when depictions in media go unchallenged, I feel it's easy for a dominant culture to stumble into lazy, passive, and quietly harmful stereotypes.
It's ok to to challenge problematic things in media you consume and still like it. I think viewpoints like the author's are important to take in, especially if you don't interact from people who do actually represent this sector of society. A sector that, for many generations, has been told that their society is worthless with words like "primitive" and "savage."
In many cases, the dominant culture has done its damnedest to erase it, leading descendants to experience a cultural isolation and trauma. The ripple effects take the form of the challenges that face Native and indigenous people living today.
I really like Horizon, and it's far from the only example in this problematic representation, but maybe this could be a launching pad for a rethink in how indigenous cultures are portrayed in comparison and alongside dominant cultures.
I think there's a point to be made in that appropriating aspects of Native and indigenous culture to use for a dystopian setting, as Horizon does, implies that this is what human society would "revert" to in the absence of the dominant, modern, Western, and "White." Without the everpresence of our smartphones and fast food joints, we apparently start talking about tree spirits and naming rituals. It infers Native culture is some how a base, "primitive" level of civilization in comparison.
Personally, it doesn't seem to me that there is any intent by the developers to show Native or indigenous culture in a negative way; however, when depictions in media go unchallenged, I feel it's easy for a dominant culture to stumble into lazy, passive, and quietly harmful stereotypes.
It's ok to to challenge problematic things in media you consume and still like it. I think viewpoints like the author's are important to take in, especially if you don't interact from people who do actually represent this sector of society. A sector that, for many generations, has been told that their society is worthless with words like "primitive" and "savage."
In many cases, the dominant culture has done its damnedest to erase it, leading descendants to experience a cultural isolation and trauma. The ripple effects take the form of the challenges that face Native and indigenous people living today.
I really like Horizon, and it's far from the only example in this problematic representation, but maybe this could be a launching pad for a rethink in how indigenous cultures are portrayed in comparison and alongside dominant cultures.
Primethius
Banned
I've read the underlying essay and the article and I'm honestly not sure how this can be addressed in a more meaningful way. The article doesn't really make it clear (after all, adding native representation doesn't do much to address it, does it?)
I think part of my struggle here is that criticism was put forth but nothing really in terms of how to address it.
Would it be okay if the concepts are used but not certain terms? And if so, I think that dillutes a bit of the point being made. Or do we not use the concepts or the words? Or do we only use them in the context of portraying Native Americans?
As someone who is not native American, this certainly seems like a valid critism but not one properly elaborated upon to get a better sense of the nuanced issues at play.
I think part of my struggle here is that criticism was put forth but nothing really in terms of how to address it.
Would it be okay if the concepts are used but not certain terms? And if so, I think that dillutes a bit of the point being made. Or do we not use the concepts or the words? Or do we only use them in the context of portraying Native Americans?
As someone who is not native American, this certainly seems like a valid critism but not one properly elaborated upon to get a better sense of the nuanced issues at play.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
If that's the case Germans and Druids should be offended as well.
It's not my place to say whether I agree with her assumption or not but between the tribal setting and a lot of evoking imagery I can totally see why people of Native American descent would see that connection and its potential appropriation.
This is one Native American, who does not speak for all Native Americans. Hell, even the Redskins controversy, which apparently the majority of Native Americans polled don't give a shit about, has a national representative body behind it.
Also, it's unclear whether or not the concerned individual in question actually knows anything about the game other than that certain individuals within a wholly invented culture are called "braves".
It absolutely exists, it happens all the time. However, sometimes it's used in a way that while literally true, kind of misses the point of why it's harmful. Just incorporating, good things from another culture in an open and welcoming multicultural society is way is far different than essentially stealing people's heritage.
That's why people learning a language and a respect of enjoyment of it's culture fits the definition but not the spirit. Negative intent, or at least bad effect seem central to if something should qualify. Not always, but in almost all cases a power dynamic is part of that equation as well.
I've not played the game, and largely avoided spoilers because I plan to, so don't take this post as a reflection on this specific claim.
Not all Native American tribes were matriarchal, and there are numerous examples of such societies existing in many parts of the world throughout history.
Seems to have worked out pretty well for The Witcher 3. The game with the male lead, oversexualized female partners and 99% white cast. Zero arguments were made. Game with most GOTYs in the history of videogames.
But now, Horizon, the game with the non-sexualized female lead, one of the most diverse cast of NPCs ever and a background feminist message... not only the alt right is furious with it (see GameFaqs and Reddit for some examples) but now the post modern left is joining the train. How dumb can the left be? No wonder Trump is the new president when the priorities of the left are on discussing cultural appropriation of a piece of fiction made in the context of a globalized world.
Judaism is a great modern example too. Though it has faded in a big way in the last few centuries.
Just so everyone is clear about the word brave
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/brave
Oxford Dictionary said:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/brave
travisbickle
Member
I immediately think Native American tribes are patriarchal because of how I've seen them represented on film with leaders being male. Whereas I assume most African tribes are matriarchal from what I learned in school. (I know everywhere has had matriarchal societies in the past, but just immediate response is Africa)
? Lagatha ?Well unlike Barbarian Germans and Druids, Native Americans and their culture still exist.
I imagine some of this is culture shock, Aloy in Northern Europe I imagine looks to be inspired by Vikings with her Red Hair and outfit, and the theme can be linked more with old rome and barbarians.
Yet in America Aloy looks to be a white woman in a native American outfit, and the theme about primitive is more linked with Native Americans for most Americans, therefore it seems insulting that a game would be about this theme and feature little to none native American representation.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AtomskEater
Member
Yeah, I haven't been paying much attention to Horizon but I watched someone play it for a few hours and was surprised at all the varying skin tones, hair types, and facial features. I think they did a very good job, and bumped the game up into my "get sooner" pile.
I guess you pretty much just tuned out all the diversity discussions then.
Not surprised considering what else is in your post.
Everything about this is stupid.
Tye The Czar
Member
For a better understanding of cultural appropriation, let's say, you and the ethnic group you belong to have been attacked or discriminated for a long time. You and your people create unique works of art or clothing to reflect a part of yourselves and your experiences. These have a ton of underlying meaning to you and those you grow up with that no other culture would be able to truly replicate.
But then the same group bullying you after a while start to find your cultural stuff cool. So they make stuff of their own, only as a cheap, meaningless costume or symbol of something that benefits them and only them. They basically bastardized the things you held dear, taking them without permission.
Let's look at another example: Let's say that, like the U.S., Germany did little to nothing to make up for the extermination of the Jewish people. Instead, they just kind of tried to sweep it all under the rug. In fiction, Jewish people would just still be exclusively characterized as big-nosed misers with funny parties. Those parties are then celebrated with fake religious outfits and chocolate gold coins. They do it not out of respect for the Jewish people, but because their customs are "cool," "weird," or "funny." Sure, the real-world portrayal of them isn't always good, but it could be a whole lot worse. This is this kind of shit that the Native American people have to live with as well as other groups ON TOP of STILL having to fight against discrimination from both government and other groups(see: DAPL).
Seeing fellow white people shrug this all off as not a big deal, or said groups being too sensitive is the one of the most detestably hypocritical and shallow arguments I've seen on the internet.
But then the same group bullying you after a while start to find your cultural stuff cool. So they make stuff of their own, only as a cheap, meaningless costume or symbol of something that benefits them and only them. They basically bastardized the things you held dear, taking them without permission.
Let's look at another example: Let's say that, like the U.S., Germany did little to nothing to make up for the extermination of the Jewish people. Instead, they just kind of tried to sweep it all under the rug. In fiction, Jewish people would just still be exclusively characterized as big-nosed misers with funny parties. Those parties are then celebrated with fake religious outfits and chocolate gold coins. They do it not out of respect for the Jewish people, but because their customs are "cool," "weird," or "funny." Sure, the real-world portrayal of them isn't always good, but it could be a whole lot worse. This is this kind of shit that the Native American people have to live with as well as other groups ON TOP of STILL having to fight against discrimination from both government and other groups(see: DAPL).
Seeing fellow white people shrug this all off as not a big deal, or said groups being too sensitive is the one of the most detestably hypocritical and shallow arguments I've seen on the internet.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Amsterdam is one of the most progressive places on the planet dude wtf?
Heckler456
Banned
Haven't we just established that the terming of the word "brave" is something that originate by people outside of Native American society, who used it to describe some of those people?
If it originated from without their culture, how can it therefor be appropriation?
Like dude, what? This reads just weird to me. Like why assoicate like this? It's reads a little unhinged to me. The juxtaposition with the modern Nazi and few liberal people with ideas you don't agree with is just super weird. Like people can't dislike a thing you don't like so trump won? You got receipts on this? I don't even really want an answer. I just wanted to type about how strange this reads to me.
I probably just missed the sarcasm train. I notice this place does that alot. I'm going to get back to playing Horizon. I'll respect someone else opinion on this game that I think is reasonable. But I really wanted to disrespect this comment in particular because I thought it was tremendously stupid.
SapphiCine
Member
Once you know how to recognize colonialist language, it's easy to spot. Xenoblade Chronicles X is pretty bad in that regard and you see it a lot in science fiction when dealing with "other" peoples.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Didn't play the game but are there actual native americans among the tribes and if there aren't is there a good reason why?
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Hmmmm not sure what I think about this as a Native American. I been watching a play through of the game and I do agree with Dia Lacina about the clothing choice of Aloy and would prefer it to have been less of a stereotypical native design and instead just go with more creative tribal attire. But the world of the video game and the terminology used I'm just not bothered by, I understand why Dia feels this way but I feel it fits quite thematically with the world. I could definitely see this game being criticize if it had lack of diversity but I haven't gone far enough in the walkthrough to see if thats the case or not so that a point I can't make atm.
Here's the thing, I don't mind people wearing clothes from my culture, as long as its in a respectful manner. I love sharing my heritage with many people from different backgrounds.
Tye The Czar
Member
True. Then why does the Braves logo have a tomahawk?
Megawarrior
Member
This game was already being sneered at by the alt right but now the extreme left too. Interesting tbh.
Wishmaster92
Member
Poor Turok. I can imagine the same can be said about those awesome games.
I dont remember any threads talking about the diversity problems in The Witcher 3. And even if there was one, at least The Witcher 3 threads dont turn into a gigantic pile of meaningless discussions about how the protagonist has dreads but it is white, there is not enough <insert a race here> or how the cultural appropriation is present in that work of fiction.