bonesmccoy
Banned
I didn't know the word Brave is considered problematic by some. I always thought it was the equivalent of warrior, knight, samurai etc.
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Horizon criticized by Native American writer for "brave", "savage", other terms
- Thread starter KyleOnTheRun
- Start date
Wishmaster92
Member
Please calm down.
What didnt you understand?
The left is worried with the semantics of the word brave, while the alt right is ascending.
You dont think there is a relation between the sheer stupidity of the new left on managing its priorities and the ascension of the alt right?
That doesn't mean they're highly aware of the issues an American community faces.
Lionel Richie
Member
Agreed, culture is not a thing you can own. What people sometimes do is portray it in a disrespectful manner by denigration through stereotypes, which I don't believe is the case here.
Heckler456
Banned
Because it refers to a Native American of course, but that doesn't mean that the word itself is part of their culture.
Like, I can see how the sports logo can be offensive. I can see how some 20 something year old going to super fun halloween party in this "crazy indian outfit" could be seen as profoundly disrespectful to the plight of the Native Americans.
But what's the issue with the usage of the word "brave"? What are they appropriating?
Besides, there should be a limit on this appropriation argument. The line should be drawn when you're trying to actually portray that sort of culture. There is nothing wrong about trying to portray their culture, even if it's in essentially schlock fiction. And that counts especially when we're talking about only evoking certain very specific parts of Native American culture when trying to portray a "tribal society", of which there have existed FAR more than Native Americans alone. And if you go do some research, there are a lot of similarities to be drawn between all of them. There are only so many ways to skin a cat when you're somewhere at the forefront of human society.
TheExecutive
Member
Of course it matters just not as much.
People can be offended by anything and certainly intent matters. That being said it's ok for folks to be offended and it's ok for them to speak their minds about it. Stating that this is an overreaction is discrediting the person's feelings on the subject. However, what Gonzalez did isn't necessarily WRONG because it offends someone but rather brings to light some cultural sensitivities that we should discuss in open forum and attempt to understand instead of discrediting the work either way.
The essay never says Brave was an example of appropriated culture, "The uncritical use of words like primitive and savage to describe appropriated cultural".
As a Freman of Arrakis, a glass of water with an open top is a waste of water, and therefore deeply offensive to me & contrary to my very survival. /jk
Mike Works
Member
Hands up, how many people posting in this thread read the original article on Medium?
That's a big discussion, but yeah. Modern identity politics at this point makes the realisation of class consciousness almost impossible.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
I did of course here is the link for those that haven't https://medium.com/@dialacina/what-...nt-talk-about-natives-60f4af9ef675#.a6uiuomwd
Umm, there's been plenty of criticism towards it. And they even responded to it by adding Ofieri in the expansion. They didn't go "geeez, everyone is so easy to offend nowadays!"
Drillary Clinton
Banned
So you're saying this doesn't exist? I'm dead breh.
Dawg, Witcher 3 did get a fair amount of criticism. And to be fair, the largely white cast only made sense within the lore which is based on Scandinavia. As someone pointed out, there responded by adding the Ofieri instead of acting lie it's not an issue.
TheExecutive
Member
You are not meant to like characters that use this language. It's very clear in the dialogue about this.
I agree, I think the only real bad usage is the word Brave.
I think the reason the author views it as uncritical is since it doesn't really deal with the history of those terms from a Native American viewpoint.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I'm a doubly sick and tired of people telling minorities how they should or shouldn't feel regarding subjects and treating cultural appropriation as a non-issue. Like ignore all the repercussions it had on those people's ability to make a living, their psyche, and representation.
I don't really have the patience to deal with that ignorant shit. I'll just drop off a video I was watching the other day on the subject that explains it in detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b33twnpqvE
I haven't been lucky enough to play this game, so I don't know in what context these are held. I could see brave being offensive if it's being used like a noun in direct relation to Native American characters or characters that may be appropriating their culture cause that would remind someone of the terribly named Atlanta Braves team. If you clearly look through history primitive and savage have been long used as harmful racist terms against people of color to justify their treatment of them. The book Exterminate the Brutes sheds a big light on that.
I don't really have the patience to deal with that ignorant shit. I'll just drop off a video I was watching the other day on the subject that explains it in detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b33twnpqvE
I haven't been lucky enough to play this game, so I don't know in what context these are held. I could see brave being offensive if it's being used like a noun in direct relation to Native American characters or characters that may be appropriating their culture cause that would remind someone of the terribly named Atlanta Braves team. If you clearly look through history primitive and savage have been long used as harmful racist terms against people of color to justify their treatment of them. The book Exterminate the Brutes sheds a big light on that.
Outrun
Member
So true.
The point is that this Indigenous individual felt that cultural appropriation existed in this game.
I would not be so dismissive.
"The Left" is like a dude and 3 other people your talking about. The generalization, that's weird to me. Your writing suggest nebulous and tangential nothings to me because it's not associated with what I read.
And no the second part. Because my brain is able to go, "I don't like what this one person is saying and that's it." I'm not able to jump and be like "These bad article I've been reading are bad and because they're probably liberals, the whole left is bad, "The left as whole is sheer stupid." Like you're putting things on this writer that he didn't put on himself. I didn't see like a liberal left branding on this.
I'm obviously missing something about the writer, are they like the new John Stuart Mill or something. They wasted their time writing this instead of focusing some grand new philosophy the was going to destroy the alt-right.
What happen for me when reading this I went, "I don't agree with this particular standpoint and was going to post XYZ reason why I didn't agree." Then I saw comment and went "this is so unabashedly weird, I didn't even feel like commenting of the article anymore".
So the article would need to demonstrate that words like "primitive" and "savage" are used uncritically to look down on a "primitive" culture.
Indeed those words are used, but as an indicator that the character using them is bigoted.
Heckler456
Banned
Exactly. Why are people glossing over this fact? The game is demonstrating that this type of thinking is bad, so how exactly is this not a good thing?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
What does the original article claim it "appropriated?"
All the article in the OP talks about is the usage of "braves" and such, which have a historically prejudiced connotation.
All the article in the OP talks about is the usage of "braves" and such, which have a historically prejudiced connotation.
What is it about this article that makes it pretentious?
I could understand it if these things were used as the punchline to jokes or in caricatures but I don't see how anything the game does with Native American terms or imagery as a negative. Cultures can be referenced and used in creative works, the context of that usage is what can be offensive. Horizon Zero Dawn handles everything pretty damn well.
If only I didn't talk about the history of the word brave, I could have changed america.
The Citizen Kane of Games
Member
What is it with gaming website creating articles about controversies based on a nobodies blog posts? That blog has like 20 shares and that's after the coverage. If Polygon/Waypoint had any backbone they would publish an actual article about this, well written and researched. That is, if they even think there is a real story here.
Listen, people are allowed to be offended about everything and voice their opinions, but gaming news really needs to check itself with 'creating' these controversies. This is basically gossip news for the gaming world.
Listen, people are allowed to be offended about everything and voice their opinions, but gaming news really needs to check itself with 'creating' these controversies. This is basically gossip news for the gaming world.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm completely calm but that's such a bull argument.
Considering how much American culture is influenced by Amsterdam it kinda does. New York was originally called New Amsterdam. And their professional writers if they did so much research to create an amalgamation of cultures I'm sure they at least to some degree did research on offensive terminology.
this type of post do not further the conversation
SRTtoZ
Member
Its a terrible name honestly, should have just stuck with Horizon, nice and simple.
Yeah, kind of feel they are coming on a bit strong in their posts throughout this thread IMO.
For one thing:
I get the feeling that a lot of people in this thread will complain very loudly about the things this Native American is saying, and then go on to forget that Native Americans still exist and suffer horrible abuse even today.
Outrun
Member
That nobody is a Native American, she she makes a lot of solid points in Indigenous People's representation in video games.
As a visible minority myself, it always saddens me how many groups seek to privilege one group's suffering over another.
Women's portrayal in videogames is brought under a spotlight(and rightfully so), while the concerns of Indigenous People are brushed over by some.
Mike Works
Member
I'm currently taking a course on Indigenous Reconciliation (primarily because I'm writing material that features Indigenous characters), and the hand-waving in this thread when it comes to cultural appropriation is unfortunately unsurprising.
I think that we live in an overly-PC culture right now. I think there are too many small things that are unjustly magnified and weaponized.
However, just because political correctness for the sake of political correctness has seeped into our culture (or at least our online culture), doesn't excuse the need to approach, and if necessary reflect and correct potential issues relating to marginalized groups and communities. And I think it'd be tough to argue that Indigenous peoples in North America haven't been subjected to marginalization over the centuries.
Now, speaking specifically to Horizon, I haven't yet played it (though I want to, I hear it's great). And the Medium article cites specific terms which could be seen as derogatory, but doesn't fully place them in context in terms of how they're conveyed in the game.
I think the conversations that should be had over this matter are twofold: first, what's the context? Which characters are using these terms, how are they using them, who wrote their dialogue, and what research have they done? The second conversation is more related to cultural appropriation.
Horizon takes place in a distant, post-apocalyptic future (I assume, based on what I've read and seen of the game). And who knows, maybe this is how sects of humanity might rebuild after such an event. I think seeing a matriarchal society represented in a videogame is an interesting thought. But while that's all well and good in the context of the fictional future within this game, the game itself is being developed and sold in the modern day where Indigenous societies, again, have been marginalized and decimated due to colonization. It can be a tricky grey area that brings art and censorship into the mix, let alone racial and cultural ethics. It's a big conversation to be had, but one that could be great.
What I suggest - especially for those who are so easily willing to hand-wave this away - is to truly attempt to empathize and put yourself in the shoes of an Indigenous person or viewpoint (which is diverse, of course, but as a generalization) and consider all that they may have experienced, and consider what it would feel like to see an American football team, or a European developer to use aspects related to your culture (both personal, and potentially derogatory) and profit off it, exploit it in the mainstream.
Again, I'm not condemning Horizon nor the writers/developers behind the game, as I haven't played it and I don't think the Medium article was specific enough in its criticism to do so.
But for God's sake, I realize PC Principal is a great character in South Park, but at least try to understand where the person may be coming from.
I think that we live in an overly-PC culture right now. I think there are too many small things that are unjustly magnified and weaponized.
However, just because political correctness for the sake of political correctness has seeped into our culture (or at least our online culture), doesn't excuse the need to approach, and if necessary reflect and correct potential issues relating to marginalized groups and communities. And I think it'd be tough to argue that Indigenous peoples in North America haven't been subjected to marginalization over the centuries.
Now, speaking specifically to Horizon, I haven't yet played it (though I want to, I hear it's great). And the Medium article cites specific terms which could be seen as derogatory, but doesn't fully place them in context in terms of how they're conveyed in the game.
I think the conversations that should be had over this matter are twofold: first, what's the context? Which characters are using these terms, how are they using them, who wrote their dialogue, and what research have they done? The second conversation is more related to cultural appropriation.
Horizon takes place in a distant, post-apocalyptic future (I assume, based on what I've read and seen of the game). And who knows, maybe this is how sects of humanity might rebuild after such an event. I think seeing a matriarchal society represented in a videogame is an interesting thought. But while that's all well and good in the context of the fictional future within this game, the game itself is being developed and sold in the modern day where Indigenous societies, again, have been marginalized and decimated due to colonization. It can be a tricky grey area that brings art and censorship into the mix, let alone racial and cultural ethics. It's a big conversation to be had, but one that could be great.
What I suggest - especially for those who are so easily willing to hand-wave this away - is to truly attempt to empathize and put yourself in the shoes of an Indigenous person or viewpoint (which is diverse, of course, but as a generalization) and consider all that they may have experienced, and consider what it would feel like to see an American football team, or a European developer to use aspects related to your culture (both personal, and potentially derogatory) and profit off it, exploit it in the mainstream.
Again, I'm not condemning Horizon nor the writers/developers behind the game, as I haven't played it and I don't think the Medium article was specific enough in its criticism to do so.
But for God's sake, I realize PC Principal is a great character in South Park, but at least try to understand where the person may be coming from.
Maybe if sites were more inclusive and offered these perspectives and hired some Native American writers we could get proper writing about representation and not stuff from "nobodies".
Cultural appropriation isn't bad in and of itself, in this case especially the claims are some hefty claims with shit backup, she doesn't even focus on the game but rather on the reviews and some general history/context of cultural appropriation. Very America-centric view from the writer in general.
Crimsonsky
Member
Polygon...and blatant complaining about a non issue. Don't use a bow and arrow when the world ends. Robin Hood and the thousands of other archers are sensitive souls who don't appreciate "appropriation." What a intellectually bankrupt essay that was. Like anyone owns words. Particularly in the English language. The irony is palpable.
Yeah that's the biggest thing imho. Any character that uses the term Savages are always shown as being bigoted in the game.
The term Brave might be a bit more muddy but the Nora also aren't shown to the the Noble Savages either. If anything while they do have their faults, their shown to be more open then others, namely in their society which puts Women at the forefront without putting down Men either.
Whereas you have the Carja who when asked about the idea of a Sun Queen seem to scoff it off as an impossibility.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm not sure why Amsterdam influencing America means that people in Amsterdam are highly aware of the issues an American sub community faces. And they probably did do research to some degree, but someone also posted here that the term braves isn't exclusive to native americans. It's not unlikely that they picked that up without being aware that something like "Atlanta Braves" is regarded negatively
Aenima
Member
God bless Yoko Taro for doing whatever his crazy brain tells him to do without giving a sh*t about critics.
So tired to see ppl complaining about every single thing in videogames. It feels that in the future a game needs to be just a white screen with no words to not be offensive. And even that will be called out cuz is not a black screen instead, so its clearly racist.
So tired to see ppl complaining about every single thing in videogames. It feels that in the future a game needs to be just a white screen with no words to not be offensive. And even that will be called out cuz is not a black screen instead, so its clearly racist.
The post modern left. I just think this whole article perfectly ilustrates their line of thinking and embraces my point about their unusual priorities. It was a context sensitive post.
big fake
Member
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Describing cultures as "primitive" has a very long history of justifying imperialism and colonialism.
You don't need to feed me some instructional video, I know my stuff. It doesn't even go against my statement anyway.
Outrun
Member
The author argues beyond the mere use of the words cited.
One of the things that she takes exception to is the idea that tribal culture is being posited as an idea from the past, therefore negating the fact that the culture is vibrant and cultural relevant today.