Support NeoGAF

[Big Nikus]

I would love a new Mario with Sunshine controls. Playing this game at a good level is one of the most satisfying experiences I've had with a platformer.

 

[Whales]

People complained about the camera in sunshine?

I never had any issues with it... Underrated game, especially here on gaf

 

[Burning Justice]

Well, you can check how many you've gotten in each level on the Totals screen. The only problem I have is that there's no way to tell which episodes have coins that you can't get in other episodes. That's really the only thing stopping you from tracking your progress.

Exactly. That's the problem with them. If you could tell what episode you could find each coin you were missing in, they wouldn't be so bad. But having to scour each level thoroughly eight times is painfully dull.

It's hard to find them. That's the point, and that's why they're optional.

I don't care if they're "optional". I like to be able to 100% my games if I want to, and putting in something that actively prevents me from doing so is grating.

 

[LakeEarth]

People complained about the camera in sunshine?

I never had any issues with it... Underrated game, especially here on gaf

It is fine most of the time, but then there are areas where it will spaz out.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

It's time someone started explaining why Super Mario Sunshine has the most advanced camera of a Nintendo game to date. And I will do that.



Some people have problems with Sunshine's camera auto-rotation mechanic when hovering. I don't, but they do.

1. Hovering is designed around the Mario feel in that Mario enters a rigid no turning linear type of movement when jumped (opposed to other games like Jak & Daxter, Maximo, Wario World, Super Mario 3D World, etc.). It would produce discordance if you could whip yourself around in the air easily like in DK64 with Diddy Kong's jetpack. The camera does not move in the direction you are going at a fast speed to prevent jerky camera movement (i.e. SM64's R-cam when turning). Hovering controls are tight to allow for tight landings. That is the design. It's a great design, but just like Sony casuals complaining about not being able to strafe in Resident Evil 4 expertly designed only for Gamecube, these same people pretending to be Nintendo fans can't seem to grasp jet pack controls that don't default to casual design of other games.

2. The camera punishes non-synchronization to Mario's movement. The camera will readjust itself to stay within a range that shows what is straight ahead of Mario that syncs with the FORWARD MOVEMENT DESIGN of the game. Try running sideways in Super Mario Sunshine (excluding athletic courses) and the camera will start to move to be behind Mario so that Mario is forward. So, no, the camera is not going to let you hover backwards to produce forward movement. No the camera is not going to let you hover sideways because that does not produce forward movement. Desyncing leads to awkwardness ala Mario swimming and jumping when moving toward the camera in the pool of water in Tall, Tall Mountain in Super Mario 64 or Flight Mario flying towards the camera in Super Mario Galaxy.

Let's look at Matthewmatosis' Mario Sunshine review which has nearly a quarter million views on youtube who gets cited here frequently for his supposed in-depth analysis:




He understands the camera re-orients itself behind hovering Mario but fails on maneuvering WITH it. On how to handle hovering he says: "This means the player needs to continually change the movements on the left analog stick based on what the camera is doing". Which is completely backwards. Camera movement follows Mario NOT leads him. The player should obviously be changing the camera direction with the camera stick in the direction of Mario's back or simply snap it in place with L-Trigger. It never occurs to him in the video of his review to use the c-stick.




Do you even hover?


Next thread: Auto-rotation and level design

A harder game or the controls are not the reasons it didn't sell

They are losing thier minds and if this is the reason they are making lesser games today like world and such then they need a reality check. Sunshine wasn't ever the goat mario game and had less appeal Because of its water focus. Not to say it isn't a good game but it has nothing to do with its difficulty.

Casual players rarely finish games anyways.

Miyamotos thinking is killing me

 

[SinCityAssassin]

A harder game or the controls are not the reasons it didn't sell

They are losing thier minds and if this is the reason they are making lesser games today like world and such then they need a reality check. Sunshine wasn't ever the goat mario game and had less appeal Because of its water focus. Not to say it isn't a good game but it has nothing to do with its difficulty.

Casual players rarely finish games anyways.

Miyamotos thinking is killing me

That's all well and good that you think that, but can you outshoot him, bet you can't.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

That's all well and good that you think that, but can you outshoot him, bet you can't.

What does this have to do with this thread ?
I can out shoot Miyamoto and curry at half court though.

 

[mntorankusu]

I don't care if they're "optional". I like to be able to 100% my games if I want to, and putting in something that actively prevents me from doing so is grating.

This is baffling to me. I mean, what, you deserve to 100% it just because you want to? Every challenge, even optional ones, should be easy enough for you, personally?

If you hate them, don't collect them. If you want them, then do what it takes to get them. What's the problem?

 

[Jack The Nipper]

They make it nearly impossible to 100% the game without using a guide. I can easily 100% SM64, both of the Galaxy games, 3D Land, and 3D World without using a guide, but Sunshine I always have to use one because I can never remember where all of the blue coins are.

I wouldn't put 64, land and world in the same boat. Stop insulting the goat like that

 

[NeonZ]

It's hard to find them. That's the point, and that's why they're optional.

It's not hard though, it's very monotonous. They're not only spread around the levels, but many only appear for specific shines. The amount of backtracking necessary to get all of them without a guide is insane. You'd need to pretty much go through almost all locations of each stage once for each shine available.

 

[killroy87]

It's almost sad how often I wish there was a Super Mario Sunshine Remaster announced. It's one of my most cherished gaming memories, and it's an incredibly fun world to be a part of.

 

[Yasumi]

It's almost sad how often I wish there was a Super Mario Sunshine Remaster announced. It's one of my most cherished gaming memories, and it's an incredibly fun world to be a part of.

Unless the NX has analog triggers, that won't be happening any time soon. Unfortunately.

 

[Anth0ny]

Sunshine is so fucking great

 

[Burning Justice]

This is baffling to me. I mean, what, you deserve to 100% it just because you want to? Every challenge, even optional ones, should be easy enough for you, personally?

If you hate them, don't collect them. If you want them, then do what it takes to get them. What's the problem?

The problem is not that it's difficult, but that it's boring. Did that not come across in my post? I like games that are difficult, as long as the difficulty is fun. It's grating because I liked the rest of the game and wanted to see it through to the end. Even if it's optional, I'm not sure why the designers would put something that's not fun into the game.

I wouldn't put 64, land and world in the same boat. Stop insulting the goat like that

...all I said was that I could beat them 100% without using a guide. When did I say anything about how good they were?

 

[catapult37]

I was in the Nintendo Store in NYC recently and was pleased to hear them playing Mario Sunshine music

Love the game. I still want a game full of just the no-water-pack challenges, though. I guess SMG was as close as we get to that.

 

[Dad]

I always thought Sunshine was the best Mario ever felt to control. Lots of different, nuanced movements and Fludd built on that moveset in a really natural way. It's just marred by some questionable level design and straight up broken physics on slanted surfaces

 

[BorkBork]

I really enjoyed the vertical aspect of the gameplay. That's the thing I remember to this day.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Free camera would fix so many things wrong with this game.

 

[thoseAREmySHOES]

I'm loving the overall positive vibe of this thread - it seems opposite of most threads that bring up Mario Sunshine. I absolutely love Mario Sunshine, flaws and all. I never felt like the camera was an issue though.

 

[Lijik]

The only time I remember the camera being unideal were a few areas in the theme park level, and in the hotel. Kind of the least of my issues with the game overall.

 

[Brazil]

The controls in Sunshine were delicious. I died a lot like the scrub I am, but I was always having fun.

I'd love to be able to buy it again digitally.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

It's a shame it'll never be ported, it doesn't work without the ability to limit the spray based on trigger feedback and I don't think any modern controller has the feedback function built in anymore.

Great game.

They could, Wii U has gamecube adapter and NX might have it too. Nintendo just love to hold us back

 

[Theanine3D]

The controls in Sunshine were perfect. Never had a problem with them, and I miss the flexibility they offered in Mario's moveset.

I've always wished that they'd make Sunshine into a FLUDD spinoff series, that lives alongside the main 3D Mario's. FLUDD was too fun to remain stuck in this one single game.

 

[mntorankusu]

The problem is not that it's difficult, but that it's boring. Did that not come across in my post? I like games that are difficult, as long as the difficulty is fun. It's grating because I liked the rest of the game and wanted to see it through to the end. Even if it's optional, I'm not sure why the designers would put something that's not fun into the game.

The designers probably put them into the game because they thought they were fun. I also think they are fun. They made them optional, perhaps, because they thought some people might not like collecting them, but they wanted to keep them in there for the people that do like them.

My favorite in gaming is when I find something new in a game that I've been playing for a long time, which is exactly what happens with blue coins if you don't obsessively search for them or use a guide. It's a true feeling of exploration when you realize that there could be something new to find each time you play, rather than just going down a list of things you need to collect. That's why I like them.

 

[Trojita]

It's a great design, but just like Sony casuals complaining about not being able to strafe in Resident Evil 4 expertly designed only for Gamecube, these same people pretending to be Nintendo fans can't seem to grasp jet pack controls that don't default to casual design of other games.

Wow.

 

[makingmusic476]

I will forever love this game because of the setting. Give me an HD version, please. ;_;

Also, non-linear 3D Mario >>> linear 3D Mario.

 

[DSix]

Sunshine had problems, but the camera wasn't one of them. I never understood the complaint either.

 

[BurgerDicks]

Camera sucked, the hover was more of a crutch if anything, voice acting was a mistake, and cleaning shit up is not fun. Getting shines just felt like work in this game. Its a mediocre Mario game but that in itself puts it above a lot of games. If it was your first or if you really like the setting I can sort of see why it could be a favorite. To me putting it above 64 or Galaxy is just asinine.

 

[mntorankusu]

I will forever love this game because of the setting. Give me an HD version, please. ;_;

Also, non-linear 3D Mario >>> linear 3D Mario.

I have this dream that Nintendo will remake Sunshine and remove the barriers between levels. Make it one open world. I always loved the way you could see the other levels where they were supposed to be on the island, but I always wished they had taken it further. I wanna ride a blooper out of Ricco Harbor all the way to Sirena Beach.

It's unrealistic, but in my imagination it's awesome.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Wow, what a fantastic camera.

The camera is absolutely busted almost as often as it's actually working, and this is easily demonstrable. It doesn't matter how much you scream about "casuals" and "bad players" and how other games "play themselves." The camera is objectively dysfunctional.

 

[catbrush]

Wow, what a fantastic camera.

This is how I remember it. Sunshine is the only 3D Mario I haven't completed. Seeing everyone praise it makes me want to give it another go.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Wow, what a fantastic camera.

I hated this part so much that camera made it so fucking frustrating I can even remember the music looping over and over again ugh

 

[DigtialT]

Hovering in Super Mario Sunshine Hovering in Super Mario Sunshine

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Played the demo as a kid extensively, never was interested in buying the game or a gamecube for that matter.

 

[Nowise10]

Holy shit at the realization that Sunshine released only six years after then Super Mario 64. That is fucking insane.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Holy shit at the realization that Sunshine is only six years older then Super Mario 64. That is fucking insane.

Sunshine looks pretty good for a game released in 1990.

 

[tanuki]

I remember the camera was mostly ok, but in confined spaces it really shit itself.

I haven't played it since it came out though. Is the Yoshi fruit platforming level as frustratingly hard as I remember it, or was it my amateur gaming skills at the time?

 

[D.Lo]

Sunshine was the fucking bomb.

Best 3D platformer controls ever, to this day.

Dat Gamecube pad with the best ever sticks with octagonal gate too *drools*.

 

[silenttwn]

Wow, what a fantastic camera.

The camera is absolutely busted almost as often as it's actually working, and this is easily demonstrable. It doesn't matter how much you scream about "casuals" and "bad players" and how other games "play themselves." The camera is objectively dysfunctional.

Seems like this is more the level design's fault than it is the cameras. The camera system is great IMO it's just this level design is built in a way that doesn't take the camera's weaknesses into account.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

The problem is not that it's difficult, but that it's boring. Did that not come across in my post? I like games that are difficult, as long as the difficulty is fun. It's grating because I liked the rest of the game and wanted to see it through to the end. Even if it's optional, I'm not sure why the designers would put something that's not fun into the game.



...all I said was that I could beat them 100% without using a guide. When did I say anything about how good they were?

That's fine. I may have assumed it.

I don't think having harder secrers or collectibles is too bad. Even though I never finished it. Gives more play time though.

This is worrying news to me, it shows the insight to why the games are what they are. We knew there was a change in play and style and we are really seeing the reasons to that.

I don't see a change coming though

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Seems like this is more the level design's fault than it is the cameras. The camera system is great IMO it's just this level design is built in a way that doesn't take the camera's weaknesses into account.

If Serious Sam had fixed camera angles (like in old-school RE), the game would be literally unplayable. Would we blame the level design or the camera?

They go hand-in-hand. It's the same exact issue regardless of which one you blame. But sure, I'll settle for saying that Sunshine has poorly thought-out, dysfunctional level design as well.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

If Serious Sam had fixed camera angles (like in old-school RE), the game would be literally unplayable. Would we blame the level design or the camera?

They go hand-in-hand. It's the same exact issue regardless of which one you blame. But sure, I'll settle for saying that Sunshine has poorly thought-out, dysfunctional level design as well.

Controls in them self are very tight and responsive.

I feel this analogy is quite off base. It's a first person game and yes it would or could work with fixed camera angles but you do have to look up and down to shoot which is still possible but your stretching the analogy out a bit here I think.

Hit points would be made differently for sure, you would no longer have precise control. Controls would have to be atkeqsr designed for that play style, this your stretching too much.not to say a camera isn't important.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Controls in them self are very tight and responsive.

I feel this analogy is quite off base. It's a first person game and yes it would or could work with fixed camera angles but you do have to look up and down to shoot which is still possible but your stretching the analogy out a bit here I think.

Hit points would be made differently for sure, you would no longer have precise control. Controls would have to be atkeqsr designed for that play style, this your stretching too much.not to say a camera isn't important.

The controls themselves are fine, but we're talking about the camera. A camera which simply does not work in many of the levels. Whether you blame the level design or the camera itself, it's a huge problem that drags the game down.

It's an exaggerated analogy to prove a point. You wouldn't be able to get past the first level of SS with fixed angles.

 

[Myriadis]

It's almost sad how often I wish there was a Super Mario Sunshine Remaster announced. It's one of my most cherished gaming memories, and it's an incredibly fun world to be a part of.

I'd love that too, but with the 4 missing levels added in and the blue coins out.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

The controls themselves are fine, but we're talking about the camera. A camera which simply does not work in many of the levels. Whether you blame the level design or the camera itself, it's a huge problem that drags the game down.

It's an exaggerated analogy to prove a point. You wouldn't be able to get past the first level of SS with fixed angles.

But could, fixed didn't mean you can't have a lot of camera changes and positions

 

[Kurt]

Nice, i'm sure that they did put much effort in this game. Still this game has so many flaws that made it as the worst mario game on a nintendo console...

 

[Azure Dream]

As bad as you think the camera is in the US version, in the Japanese version it's even worse. The Pachinko stage is straight-up busted, if I recall.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

As bad as you think the camera is in the US version, in the Japanese version it's even worse. The Pachinko stage is straight-up busted, if I recall.

The Pachinko level is still pretty busted in the US version. I can only imagine how horrible the Japan version is if it's even worse.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

The Pachinko level is still pretty busted in the US version. I can only imagine how horrible the Japan version is if it's even worse.

I was hoping it would be that video. Lol.

 

[Poyunch]

I really did not enjoy the collectathon nature of Super Mario Sunshine and I honestly preferred the special levels moreso than the main environments but for some reason I really want to play an HD remaster of the game.