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[lastrealgameralive]

Wow, what a fantastic camera.

The camera is absolutely busted almost as often as it's actually working, and this is easily demonstrable. It doesn't matter how much you scream about "casuals" and "bad players" and how other games "play themselves." The camera is objectively dysfunctional.

Let's rephrase it: Wow, what a bad player. I too can create gifs of me playing the game in an even worse manner to make it look like the game has an inadequate camera. The more control over a camera can lead to bigger failures done with it, as it is with anything complex. So what could the player have done for an optimal view? Well, the level design is closed in against the wall, so that means the player's better camera option is to have to the camera closely ZOOMED IN to avoid going behind the wall and/or position the camera parallel to the wall as opposed to zoomed out behind it obscuring his view. That eliminates the "camera problem".

 

[IgotElbows]

If they ever made 'SUPER MARIO SUNSHINE HD'
Couldn't they remap the camera to the right stick like every game is nowadays?

Kingdom Hearts did it with KH 1.5, so people can't say it is an impossible task.

 

[Jawbreaker]

The pure platforming sections of Super Mario Sunshine are some of my favorite bits of gameplay in any Mario title to date. While the camera isn't perfect, I do love the amount of control it gives you.

This is a game that defined my summer when it launched. I definitely think it gets way too much flak.

Holy shit dude.

Now tell us how you really feel

You should check out some of these other gems by the OP:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211499976&highlight=#post211499976

Nintendo has to return to power, not weakness. They cannot allow themselves to become perverted by casuals who are actively sinking the company into the ground.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211497273&highlight=#post211497273

You're not too concerned because you don't see that releasing an underpowered console is going to kill Nintendo. You want Nintendo to be weak and Sony to be strong.

So it's fine Nintendo's third party support is dominated by Sony's third party support?

Everything in your post screams weakness.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211495026&highlight=#post211495026

Sweet?

What is sweet about handheld gaming compared to console gaming? Portability just means easier setup, not better game experience.

What is sweet about the power of console gaming from Nintendo being diminished in a anti-competitor defeatist stance?

If the news is true Nintendo has allowed themselves to be perverted by weak ideologies of its casual fans.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211459224&highlight=#post211459224

The intentions become perverted too because now you cannot tend to a tv because they also are tending to a handheld. Thus the sacrifice of ideals alongside power.

They're like the Donald Trump of Nintendo fans.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Let's rephrase it: Wow, what a bad player. I too can create gifs of me playing the game in an even worse manner to make it look like the game has an inadequate camera. The more control over the camera can lead to bigger failures with it, as it is with anything complex. So what did the player do wrong here? Well, the level design is closed in against the wall, so that means the player's better camera option is to have to the camera closely ZOOMED IN to avoid the wall and/or position the camera parallel to the wall. That eliminates the "camera problem".

Lol, you act as though I'm the one who created that video, and I did so to make a gif for this thread. You can't zoom the camera in, because it zooms back out automatically. The camera constantly jerks itself around whenever you get in a somewhat enclosed space.

Criticisms of the camera are not new, basically everybody at the time had the same complaints. It's not like this is some super-fringe view by "bad players." The reality is that fundamental design mistakes were made and the majority opinion (both contemporary and retrospective) reflects that.

 

[Patrick Young]

It sure beats the hell out of Mario 2!

I like the way the OP thinks.

 

[Possumowner]

Absolutely loved/love Sunshine.A little difficult to get used to those controls at first,at least for me.But it's a gem of a game

 

[AzaK]

My favorite Mario game.

I'm with you.

 

[FunkyDealer]

I've been trying to get into Sunshine after buying it last year. But my issue with it is that I find it hard to judge distance due to the flat lighting. Couple that with the inverted camera, and I end up getting frustrated.

 

[Lutherian]

Give me the ability to skip the opening cutscenes and I'll consider Super Mario Sunshine to be one of the greatest 3D Mario game. After Super Mario Galaxy.

 

[watershed]

Yeah I remember the camera giving me a lot of trouble when I played this game way back then. IIRC the camera is inverted left and right and when you tilt the camera up it automatically zooms out and when you tilt the camera down it automatically zooms in and it doesn't adjust by itself very well to the player's movements. Otherwise I still enjoyed the game a lot despite some other flaws.

 

[Ushojax]

Sunshine was a great game but I think it demonstrated just how complex 3D platformers can be to casual players. Combining Mario's huge range of movement with a jetpack, a free moving camera and some very intricate platforming was always going to frustrate some people.

Galaxy and 3D World solve a lot of the problems but also suffer from a massive reduction in complexity and difficulty, although they are unquestionably better games.

 

[Magicpaint]

Personally I never had any issues with the camera. It's only when I checked online after I finished it that I saw everyone complaining about it. I actually like having manual control of the camera and missed it in Galaxy.

Me exactly. It still has my favourite camera in any game to date.

 

[marmoka]

I have tried playing Sunshine many times but I never can go on after getting about 15 stars. My pacience has its limits. I agree with matthewmatosis's video, the game is not well designed and looks unfinished. It's very frustrating to play with this game.

I've read many times people asking for a HD remake, and honestly I agree with this. This game needs a remake, with all the design and development flaws fixed. Also getting a feedback of the users about what didn't they like from the game, and try to fix them for the better. This game needs a second chance, they could make this game the game it was supposed to be from the beginning.

 

[The Real Abed]

The Pachinko level is still pretty busted in the US version. I can only imagine how horrible the Japan version is if it's even worse.

Oh my god. I think it's been too long since I rewatched this episode. I think I need to give it another go.

 

[Blackpuppy]

I don't know why everyone thinks this game would be impossible to port to digital triggered gamepads. Lightly pressing it in squirts your Fludd with the full range of movements and all the way just makes you strafe while squirting. Just use ZL at the same time as R as a full trigger press. Voila.

 

[Jacknapes]

One of, if not my favourite Mario game. Spent hours upon hours playing this, collecting the Shines and generally just enjoying myself. Took me the best part of a few months to get every Shine and Blue coin.

 

[lastrealgameralive]

You can't zoom the camera in, because it zooms back out automatically.

This is false. The player can keep the camera fully zoomed in anytime. The camera tilts to give a slightly downward view when hovering; it doesn't automatically zoom in or out.

The camera constantly jerks itself around whenever you get in a somewhat enclosed space.

This is false.

I've literally analyzed everything there is to the camera system, so I know what is what. I prefer to make several thread installments on it then cram it all into one thread (Thread 1: Hovering -- can people stick to that topic? No.). So real quick: The camera only automatically moves or "jerks" when (A) to re-direct behind spraying (full L Trigger press), hovering, or walking Mario (sans athletic courses), (B) when Mario is going around certain structures (trees, crates, towers), (C) Around certain bosses. Enclosed spaces by themselves constrict camera movement so that there is no jerking around.

Criticisms of the camera are not new, basically everybody at the time had the same complaints. It's not like this is some super-fringe view by "bad players." The reality is that fundamental design mistakes were made and the majority opinion (both contemporary and retrospective) reflects that.

There aren't design mistakes with the camera. There was an intense amount of attention paid to the camera by Nintendo.

Also, I have read every review and thread I could find on this game with google searching. 99.9% of reviews on the camera are shallow. Your particular criticism certainly isn't new, as a matter of fact, it's the number 1 dismissive criticism of the camera system. A criticism that doesn't apply to good players. The camera complaints on Pinna Park disappear when you get good.

 

[KaneU]

I am praying we get an HD remaster of this game on NX. This was actually my first 3D Mario platformer, and I loved it. The atmosphere in this game is just on another level, it's just so memorable. I haven't played this game in more than 10 years, but I can still remember most of the locations clearly in my head. Controls were challenging in some levels tho. I remember never being able to beat the level where you had to spray the juice while riding a Yoshi to make platforms appear, it was so frustrating! Also that last level... I remember it took me weeks to beat it, I almost gave up.

 

[Sakujou]

The opposite side are reviewers whining about using the c-stick too much. Like having control is a disease. And this is why Nintendo just decided "fuck it. let's make games that play themselves".
...

and this is the problem of the industry. simply complaining about everything.

 

[BGBW]

The camera wasn't Sunshine's only issue though, there were a lot of flaws that bog down the overall package. Behind the Ferris Wheel was bad but that's really the only places I remember having severe problems with the camera.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

This is false. The player can keep the camera fully zoomed in anytime. The camera tilts to give a slightly downward view when hovering; it doesn't automatically zoom in or out.


This is false.

I've literally analyzed everything there is to the camera system, so I know what is what. I prefer to make several thread installments on it then cram it all into one thread (Thread 1: Hovering -- can people stick to that topic? No.). So real quick: The camera only automatically moves or "jerks" when (A) to re-direct behind spraying (full L Trigger press), hovering, or walking Mario (sans athletic courses), (B) when Mario is going around certain structures (trees, crates, towers), (C) Around certain bosses. Enclosed spaces by themselves constrict camera movement so that there is no jerking around.


There aren't design mistakes with the camera. There was an intense amount of attention paid to the camera by Nintendo.

Also, I have read every review and thread I could find on this game with google searching. 99% of reviews on the camera are shallow. Your criticism isn't new, as a matter of fact, it's the number 1 dismissive criticism of the camera system. A criticism that doesn't apply to good players. The camera complaints on Pinna Park disappear when you get good.

It must be nice being literally the only good player to touch Mario Sunshine. When almost everybody else, including speedrunners who've played the game for bazillions of hours, aren't able to grasp the camera, you know you're in, like, the top 1% of gamers.

Please understand, however, that there exist people who prefer to not have to read multi-thread analyzations of the ins and outs of a game's camera system to for it to work in a semi-functional manner.

 

[lastrealgameralive]

I wouldn't mind reading a speedrunner's review of the game with extensive criticism of the camera. In all honesty has a speedrunner for this game actually written a review? I don't think they have. I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

I wouldn't mind reading a speedrunner's review of the game with extensive criticism of the camera. In all honesty has a speedrunner for this game actually written a review?

Go watch some speedruns. The fastest don't usually come down to "Who has the best route," it's "who doesn't accidentally make the camera spaz out and stand still for five seconds trying to reorient it."

EDIT: Nice edit

DOUBLE EDIT:

https://youtu.be/dJjFtyiAo64?t=2987

Here's him doing that level. He just skips the climbing section altogether, but everybody takes a moment to discuss how garbage it is anyways.

 

[Son Of D]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfW-MPUjC_0

Amazing contribution.

 

[poodaddy]

The pure platforming sections of Super Mario Sunshine are some of my favorite bits of gameplay in any Mario title to date. While the camera isn't perfect, I do love the amount of control it gives you.

This is a game that defined my summer when it launched. I definitely think it gets way too much flak.



You should check out some of these other gems by the OP:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211499976&highlight=#post211499976


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211497273&highlight=#post211497273


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211495026&highlight=#post211495026


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=211459224&highlight=#post211459224


They're like the Donald Trump of Nintendo fans.

Jesus Christ! OP I love me some Mario Sunshine but uh..... you're one of those intense "real gamer" weirdos huh? You're probably hard to be around in real life, no offense. Stop being so intense and mean over things like the power of a console and what you perceive to be as "weakness." They're games man, chill.

 

[ZBR]

I played this game when I was 12 and I don't remember having any trouble with it. After I beat it I would start it up and use the jet pack that made you run fast and would try to avoid obstacles. I do remember being bummed out that I hadn't kept track of the blue coins though. I thought about restarting since it was the first game I could have/csred about completing it 100% but got over it quickly. I loved running around in the levels too much. When my buddy got it, who's a bit more anal about completing it 100%, I told him to watch out for the blue coins from the beginning and to keep track of them. With that he was able to complete it, 100%, pretty easily.

 

[thetrin]

Sunshine marked my parting with the Mario franchise. Absolutely hated that game. I played Galaxy and liked it, but I was definitely done with the series.

I hope they keep making it for those that love it, but I'm done with Mario, and platformers in general.

 

[fart town usa]

Never understood the hate for this game. Difficult, fun, and that music...so good.

I prefer it over galaxy.

 

[Stat Flow]

Sunshine is the best Mario game for me. I loved how different it was and I always thought it was amazing to control and play. Never understood the hate.

 

[thefro]

The bee suit >>> FLUDD.

You can tell Sunshine got rushed out the door and it's easily the worst 3D Mario game.

 

[The Cool One]

Great game, my only gripe is the blue coins. Some people don't kown what they're talking about when they say this game sucks

 

[Hitlersaurus Christ]

Sunshine wasn't what I wanted, but it was truly unique and the atmosphere was amazing. I don't think I really want a Sunshine 2, but in hindsight it was a great game. Sunshine wasn't what I wanted, but it was truly unique and the atmosphere was amazing. I don't think I really want a Sunshine 2, but in hindsight it was a great game.

 

[Widge]

I had no idea it was regarded as hard, I thought I was just terrible.

I got to some points where I was absolutely up against a brick wall. I think it was a section where you had to get Yoshi to vomit blocks into solidity, over a big expanse, jumping and forming as you went where I just said "NO" and canned it right there.

 

[tanooki27]

this one and galaxy are tied for my favs. loved the acrobatics + pump boost. the pump made you brave

 

[TheJollyCorner]

Wait... is this thread about hovering in SMS?
Thread title is kinda vague...

Spoiler

Sunshine was a bit too strange for me. Those weird, pear-shaped townsfolk... *shudder*

 

[Rambler]

Hover (and double jump) ruined 3d platformers.

 

[ec0ec0]

Vert1!! you finally made the thread haha

edit: oh, so you're going to divide it into several threads.

 

[ec0ec0]

I'd be more okay with them if there was a way to track your collection. There's no indication of blue coins you've already collected.

not this sh*t again

to see the number of blue coins you've already collected, press the "z" button. A menu will open. Move the cursor over the names of the different zones in the game to see how many blue coins you've already collected in each one of them.

edit:

Exactly. That's the problem with them. If you could tell what episode you could find each coin you were missing in, they wouldn't be so bad. But having to scour each level thoroughly eight times is painfully dull.

but there is no indication for this saddly.

edit2:

Unless the NX has analog triggers, that won't be happening any time soon. Unfortunately.

the main reason why NX should have analog triggers is not sunshine HD, it's so that we can have a new F-Zero game!! ;_;

 

[Agent Unknown]

Sunshine really did have some hardcore controls so it may have been part of why it wasn't popular.

I love this game though.

"Hardcore controls"? Sunshine has great controls and I was always surprised people complained about the manual camera which I thought was great. This is like saying Mario 64 has too many extra moves. It wasn't popular because of bland levels that were too open ended with few enemies and sparse bosses to challenge the player, lack of real platforming outside of the challenge stages where you don't have FLUDD, it was too short, restricting Yoshi to simply being used to open up the paint panel sections was a terrible way to use the character when we'd been waiting years for Yoshi in 3D (in comparison the stages which use Yoshi in SMG2 are a blast and give you a lot more freedom with him), and Blue coins were extremely tedious and an absolute cop out for what should have been extra Shine missions.

I enjoyed Sunshine for what it was, it's a relaxing, fun diversion and a good summer afternoon game but everything about the game feels rushed like the dev team didn't have the time needed to make it a more complete and satisfying experience. It also has one of the dullest Bowser battles in the series (what was the point of having the last fight be the only place where you actually use the rocket butt stomp? Just another sign the game was rushed). As a Mario sequel it was very disappointing and almost killed my interest in 3D Mario games until SMG 1&2 which both blew me away, losing the manual camera was a small sacrifice for proper platforming action. Of the Gamecube's "big three" it's a much weaker game when compared to both Metroid Prime and Wind Waker.

I would like to see an HD remake of Sunshine someday but they would have to add a lot to it content wise and make a lot of adjustments to make it worthwhile so I don't see it happening. The last time anyone from NCL mentioned it was in an interview where one of the Splatoon devs jokingly said something like "Mario Sunshine, what's that?" I don't get the impression it's all that well regarded at NCL either otherwise we'd hear more about it and a remake would have happened by now either on 3DS or Wii U.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

Can a mod please make an accurate thread title. This is about op and cameras not hovering

 

[Zetta]

I always found it shocking to see the hate this game received, it was so much fun to play. This game deserves a Hd remake just to see how great it looks, I mean Petey Pirahna needs to be watered damn it.

 

[BasilZero]

Sunshine is great indeed.

Hated it at first but after playing through it and 2nd time too I love it.

The controls and the setting are fantastic.

 

[Phediuk]

Thee camera wasn't the problem with Mario Sunshine; the shit level design was.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

I always found it shocking to see the hate this game received, it was so much phone to play. This game deserves a Hd remake just to see how great it looks, I mean Petey Pirahna needs to be watered damn it.

Before release the water tooth boss looked sort of insane

 

[WillyFive]

After playing Yooka-Laylee, loving how it plays, and then seeing how others responded to the camera controls, and remembering the same thing about Sunshine; I wonder if the people that had problems tried to play the game without using the camera all the time.

3D platformers control just like FPS, you move the movement stick and the camera stick together all the time. You turn with the camera stick, essentially.

 

[TrueBlue]

The camera wasn't Sunshine's only issue though, there were a lot of flaws that bog down the overall package. Behind the Ferris Wheel was bad but that's really the only places I remember having severe problems with the camera.

.

 

[lastrealgameralive]

Let's rephrase it: Wow, what a bad player. I too can create gifs of me playing the game in an even worse manner to make it look like the game has an inadequate camera. The more control over a camera can lead to bigger failures done with it, as it is with anything complex. So what could the player have done for an optimal view? Well, the level design is closed in against the wall, so that means the player's better camera option is to have to the camera closely ZOOMED IN to avoid going behind the wall and/or position the camera parallel to the wall as opposed to zoomed out behind it obscuring his view. That eliminates the "camera problem".

https://youtu.be/-3YCvxBxquY
Here is what a smooth playthrough looks like.

Wait... is this thread about hovering in SMS?
Thread title is kinda vague...

Spoiler

Sunshine was a bit too strange for me. Those weird, pear-shaped townsfolk... *shudder*

The first three pages only 3 people (excluding myself) used the word hover. There was some sort-of explosion of the word afterwards.

Vert1!! you finally made the thread haha

edit: oh, so you're going to divide it into several threads.

There is going to be a mega thread late August. Sunshine has so many detractors for so many things, and that's why I confined the thread to hovering controls to see if it was a general problem for NeoGAF or something of rarity. From the looks of this thread hovering was not a problem for people.

Hover...ruined 3d platformers.

That's a good topic to discuss.