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How does Neogaf feel about the Last Jedi?

TekNav

Banned
Hated it. Hated it so much that I doubt I'll ever see another Star Wars movie again.

I didn't understand how much I hated it until I saw what Bethesda did to Fallout 76 and recognized the similarities. They both came from a position that the IP is trash and no respect needs to be given to the lore or continuity, and that the fanbase is trash and will buy any low-effort output.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
In the theater I felt insulted then resigned to it being the most cornball ham fisted entry since ROTJ. Lots of empty slogans about killing the past while they endlessly rehash the OT

The response from poptimists declaring it is actually the best movie ever and anyone who thinks otherwise is a nazi has had me entirely dismiss continuing the series. A later rewatch confirmed the movie was actually worse than I remembered. Haven’t seen Solo yet and I don’t plan on seeing IX

It’s nothing but a cynical cash grab with no imagination at this point. Not what I signed up for when I fell in love with the OT.
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
It's a space fantasy movie about wizards, anything goes. All logic out of the window.

Here's the thing - even fantasy about wizards tends to have a set of rules. You need this so that you can have some jeopardy, a bit of suspense, otherwise you can just hand-wave out of anything with "and bob does an amazing magic trick killing all the bad guys in one shot and saving the world". That would be a boring story, and this is what we tend to refer to as deus ex machina - it's a sign of bad writing when it happens (Dr Who does it A LOT).
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Loved it at first. The spectacle and unique way the story went appealed to me.

On rewatches, man, I really dislike it. Its prequel tier.
 

Dunki

Member
Why do people get hung up on Luke drinking milk from a space cow? You drink milk too right? You know where it comes from? Cow tits.
Maybe because it was played a a joke and which made Luke a joke as well.

IT was not presented as something normal.
 

TekNav

Banned
Here's the thing - even fantasy about wizards tends to have a set of rules. You need this so that you can have some jeopardy, a bit of suspense, otherwise you can just hand-wave out of anything with "and bob does an amazing magic trick killing all the bad guys in one shot and saving the world". That would be a boring story, and this is what we tend to refer to as deus ex machina - it's a sign of bad writing when it happens (Dr Who does it A LOT).

Bingo. I hate the "fantasy and science fiction don't need to make sense" arguments. They absolutely have to make sense within the established lore of that universe.

The reason people (rightfully) hate Last Jedi is that it didn't just abandon the lore and continuity of the universe - it completely invalidated it.

After watching Last Jedi we know that the Rebellion was a bunch of brain-dead morons who beat their heads against a pair of Death Stars that could have defeated by taking an old mining barge and hyperspacing it into the damn things.
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
Rey, I liked a lot more in this film. She was way more tolerable and relatable here

[snip]

I absolutely loved what they did with Luke Skywalker. They took the greatest Mary Sue and turned it into a Greek Tragedy.

I would agree that seeing Luke fail had potential to be a really interesting storyline, if done right, but... Mary Sue. I mean he starts out as a weakling, requires training, fights for his friends and nothing is handed to him on a plate. Then you have Rey who is just automagically amazing at everything, can kick ass without the slightest effort, is already going toe-to-toe with the big bad in film 1 with no training at all... not a Mary Sue at all there, nosiree. I think you're letting your political affiliation cloud your judgement, due to the oft-held view that only people on the alt-right hate Star Wars. This is simply not true. Let go of your hate.
 
My wife and I hated it when we saw it in the theater. I'm a little indifferent now. I watched it again (in the background while I was working) shortly after it was released on Netflix and was able to ignore most of its major issues and focus on the few things I liked like the relationship between Kylo Ren and Rey). It's probably more watchable than the prequels simply because most of the acting is better and it doesn't suffer from badly-aging CGI.
 

Dunki

Member
I would agree that seeing Luke fail had potential to be a really interesting storyline, if done right, but... Mary Sue. I mean he starts out as a weakling, requires training, fights for his friends and nothing is handed to him on a plate. Then you have Rey who is just automagically amazing at everything, can kick ass without the slightest effort, is already going toe-to-toe with the big bad in film 1 with no training at all... not a Mary Sue at all there, nosiree. I think you're letting your political affiliation cloud your judgement, due to the oft-held view that only people on the alt-right hate Star Wars. This is simply not true. Let go of your hate.
Yeah Luke never was a Mary sue. he had so many losses, Part 5 was all about it. He could nothing do well but archied much after a ton of training. Rey did not need ANY of this.
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah Luke never was a Mary sue. he had so many losses, Part 5 was all about it. He could nothing do well but archied much after a ton of training. Rey did not need ANY of this.

Also he needed a lot of help from his friends (and one foe). The thing is, the failure makes the eventual success more impactful. A 'hero' who can do no wrong is fucking boring.
 

kunonabi

Member
It's terrible movie and an abysmal SW film. It has nuggets of good ideas here and there but it flubs all of them. I'd still say Rogue One is worse though.
 
He had a skill he built up over years of practice in a believable situation. That at is quite literally the opposite of why a Mary Sue is able to do something spectacular. Because of his experience, he that was his role in the trench run - everyone else was running defense for him. He never shot down three Tie Fighters with one shot on his first try while making the final kill shot - a bunch of pilots died, and he would have as well if Han had not saved him.

I don't think the Force is ever explicitly said in the OT to be entirely blood based either - Luke just started getting trained by Obi Wan because he saw Obi Wan do some neat tricks and it interested him. His motivation gradually shifted to redeeming his father.

"The force is strong in my family". The movies literally set his bloodlines abilities up as the ONLY one who can defeat the most powerful evil. When Obi-Wan says there is nobody else, Yoda replies "there is another". Tada- Referring to Leia because she is also from this unbeliveable powerful family.
Yoda even explains in TES that Luke is too old to be Trained, but goes ahead with it anyway.

Just because Luke is training and shit, doesn't mean he is not born into. Same fucking thing with Harry Potter. Yeah he has struggles, but he is still the son of mr and mrs ridiculosously powerful. Just because you fail it doesnt mean you are not a mary Sue. I already explained they come in many shapes and sizes, and one of the cardinal tropes is being born into it.



I would agree that seeing Luke fail had potential to be a really interesting storyline, if done right, but... Mary Sue. I mean he starts out as a weakling, requires training, fights for his friends and nothing is handed to him on a plate. Then you have Rey who is just automagically amazing at everything, can kick ass without the slightest effort, is already going toe-to-toe with the big bad in film 1 with no training at all... not a Mary Sue at all there, nosiree. I think you're letting your political affiliation cloud your judgement, due to the oft-held view that only people on the alt-right hate Star Wars. This is simply not true. Let go of your hate.

I don't have any political affiliation towards any of this. Rey is a Mary Sue too and I already said that. Doesn't mean Luke ain't. His power is driven from his family. This is further explained in the prequels, where Anakin is mysteriously and unbeliveable powerful. It's literally the story of an unbeliveable powerful family of force users. Anakin is so powerful than there wasn't even a "father". It's some space jesus bullshit here.


For the last time, by the sheer token of being the son of darth vader (the all powerful satanic evil that killed and hunted all the jedi of his sheer power) he is the only one powerful enough to fight his own father. ERGO, its because of his blood. Exactly like Harry Potter and tons and of others franchises. And that's okay. You don't have to be all defensive about it. You can argue all you want that its not a mary sue unless its a full bingo, but I call bullshit on that.
 

TekNav

Banned
Yeah Luke never was a Mary sue. he had so many losses, Part 5 was all about it. He could nothing do well but archied much after a ton of training. Rey did not need ANY of this.

This is honestly the first time I've ever heard Luke and Mary Sue even put together in a sentence. Dude had an entire movie dedicated to him having to train and discover what it means to be a Jedi.

Meanwhile, Rey pilots the Millenium Falcon, a ship she's never touched, after it's been junked for who knows how long, in atmosphere, through an extreme obstacle course that even Solo wouldn't have been able to pull off.
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
"The force is strong in my family". The movies literally set his bloodlines abilities up as the ONLY one who can defeat the most powerful evil. When Obi-Wan says there is nobody else, Yoda replies "there is another". Tada- Referring to Leia because she is also from this unbeliveable powerful family.
Yoda even explains in TES that Luke is too old to be Trained, but goes ahead with it anyway.

Just because Luke is training and shit, doesn't mean he is not born into. Same fucking thing with Harry Potter. Yeah he has struggles, but he is still the son of mr and mrs ridiculosously powerful. Just because you fail it doesnt mean you are not a mary Sue. I already explained they come in many shapes and sizes, and one of the cardinal tropes is being born into it.





I don't have any political affiliation towards any of this. Rey is a Mary Sue too and I already said that. Doesn't mean Luke ain't. His power is driven from his family. This is further explained in the prequels, where Anakin is mysteriously and unbeliveable powerful. It's literally the story of an unbeliveable powerful family of force users. Anakin is so powerful than there wasn't even a "father". It's some space jesus bullshit here.


For the last time, by the sheer token of being the son of darth vader (the all powerful satanic evil that killed and hunted all the jedi of his sheer power) he is the only one powerful enough to fight his own father. ERGO, its because of his blood. Exactly like Harry Potter and tons and of others franchises. And that's okay. You don't have to be all defensive about it. You can argue all you want that its not a mary sue unless its a full bingo, but I call bullshit on that.

Just like in real life, where skill is a mix of natural (genetic) predisposition (ie a basketball player being the right height) and training, so it's presented the same way for Luke.
 
Yeah Luke never was a Mary sue. he had so many losses, Part 5 was all about it. He could nothing do well but archied much after a ton of training. Rey did not need ANY of this.


"a ton of training". A Jedi training takes them from small children into adulthood. Lukes training with Yoda on Dagobah was super short. His power does not come from his training, and if it did, the movies did a shitty job of showing the progress of time. It certainly did with Rey.

But the difference with Rey is that everyone else in The Force Awakens are also people who seek weak and incapable. We dont get a sense of Kylo who can barely hold the right end of a fucking lightsaber is supposed to be powerful. Same thing with snoke. So is Rey powerful or does everyone just suck? TLJ sets up the question if she is a ordinary individual or if she is a descendant of someone powerful. AGAIN, playing with the question of your power being derived from being a descendant from someone powerful like the skywalkers or if your power comes from your own. Another trope to the bundle.
 
Just like in real life, where skill is a mix of natural (genetic) predisposition (ie a basketball player being the right height) and training, so it's presented the same way for Luke.

But this is not genetic predisposition. He is litteraly. LITERALLY, the only one that can save the universe. That is being handed the keys and being told that you are so special and unique and more than anyone else. Not by the token of your own ability. You can have physical advantages in real life, but that is endlessly removed from being told you are the only one you can do something. And there are many people who don't have the natural predisposition to be the greatest who end up defying that.



But Luke doesn't defeat the ultimate evil. He loses, but his struggles bring Vader back around to save him.

Expectations subverted, so he can't be a Mary Sue.

Because the hero of the saga is Anakin, not Luke. That still doesn't mean he is a Mary Sue. I think some of you guys are confused here. A Mary Sue is not just a character who cannot be beaten. And Luke isn't beaten. His fight with the emperor is one he wins, because his real fight and climax is with his father. And he beats his father by not repeating his mistake, and believing in the good in him. And Luke is correct, because Anakin kills the emperor and redeems himself.

Still only possible because he is the son and heir of the greatest. Mary Sue to the core. His character, arc and position is only possible due to coming from a powerful family. Obi-Wan and Yoda says it. And many of the jedi masters refer to his father as an anomaly in the force. Its clear as day.
 
But this is not genetic predisposition. He is litteraly. LITERALLY, the only one that can save the universe. That is being handed the keys and being told that you are so special and unique and more than anyone else. Not by the token of your own ability. You can have physical advantages in real life, but that is endlessly removed from being told you are the only one you can do something. And there are many people who don't have the natural predisposition to be the greatest who end up defying that.





Because the hero of the saga is Anakin, not Luke. That still doesn't mean he is a Mary Sue. I think some of you guys are confused here. A Mary Sue is not just a character who cannot be beaten. And Luke isn't beaten. His fight with the emperor is one he wins, because his real fight and climax is with his father. And he beats his father by not repeating his mistake, and believing in the good in him. And Luke is correct, because Anakin kills the emperor and redeems himself.

Still only possible because he is the son and heir of the greatest. Mary Sue to the core. His character, arc and position is only possible due to coming from a powerful family. Obi-Wan and Yoda says it. And many of the jedi masters refer to his father as an anomaly in the force. Its clear as day.

I think you are confusing being a protagonist with being a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue is a character who is perfectly good in everything they do. It is more skill-based than plot-based.
 
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#Phonepunk#

Banned
I loved it when vice admiral Holdo split Snoke's ship into two part

It was kind of impressive to me but by that point we have seen multiple ships kamikaze into star destroyers in other movies so it really isn’t as groundbreaking as people say

Plus on rewatch I realized she flies into the ship while all the heroes are on it! Yes she flies into our heroes, threatening their lives directly, and it’s entitely ignored cos wow flashy sparkly we on the level of babies impressed w jingly keys

And it doesn’t matter for some reason, Finn and Rose don’t get sucked out into space like Leia. Because all the new characters are Mary Sues who cannot be destroyed.

All the ways they ‘fail’ in this movie have to do with symbolic failure, nobody ever personally loses anything, in fact they all gain in power & stature. Just one of many ways this movie is full of crap
 
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I think you are confusing being a protagonist with being a Mary Sue.

Nope. You don't know a lot about storytelling and narrative if you seriously think that a protagonist by definition has to be heroically good, capable and born-into-greatness by the token predetermined external explanations. I studied Joseph Campell in film school, and I can tell you with certainty, that Lucas developed Star Wars out of his blueprint of the Hero's Journey, and Luke is the definition of parcel fitted hero characters. He was written to be instantly good, relatable and likeable. He is a Mary Sue, and even when he fails he does it out of kindness. That is the traits of a Mary Sue character.

There are many protagonists who are written from a point of view, that has a lot more growth. It's a common tool in scriptwriting (and fiction in general) to write your protagonist to be very far in belief and state in mind from where they start. Luke is as good hearted at the end as he is in the beginning. He refuses the quest to adventure (Obis call for aid) but does the right thing anyway when his goodness based nature prevails.

There are many protagonists who doesn't work like that. A pivotal character change is not about physical power, it's also about what type of character they are. Are their beliefs and world views fundamentally different at the end of their journey than in the beginning? Sometimes you have characters who start out as cowards, or evil, or bad or wrong somehow. That's not the case with Luke at all, and he never fails himself. It's easy and convenient to write your characters as likeable, but it makes them less relateable in the end. Even though Luke is the hero of Star Wars, a lot of people are more fascinated with Han Solo and Darth Vader because their flaws make them more interesting.

And if you actually sit down and read Campbells works like the Hero with a Thousand Faces you can see that these dramaturgical fundaments have been used in story since the ancient greeks. In those stories you had all-powerful warriors and lords, but they often ended in tragedy due to character flaws of their own doing. Even when Luke is bested by the emperor physically in battle, he still wins because he doesn't give up (give in to the dark side). Its a pretty straight forward way of winning, even when you are losing.



I hate Superman because he is boring. His goodness, and kindness is boring. His powers are boring because he is born into it. That doesnt mean that Superman doesnt make mistakes. He does, and he has weaknesses (like kryptonite). That doesnt mean he is not a Mary Sue.
Batman is a much more flawed character and as a result more interesting. His power is not given to him in the same way, and he is much more on an equal footing as some of his enemies. It makes for better drama.


You can apply that to almost anything. Mickey Mouse is boring as shit for the same reasons. Donald Duck is an endlessly better character due to all his character flaws. He is short tempered, unlucky, a shitty uncle/nephew/boyfriend. He is lazy. He is jealous. He is so many bad things, and those flaws end up making much more compelling scenarios than mickey mouse, who is way to good and sweet and one dimensional. Mickey Mouse was written to be liked right off the bat. But thats easy and boring. Doesnt have anything to do with being a protagonist.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
"a ton of training". A Jedi training takes them from small children into adulthood. Lukes training with Yoda on Dagobah was super short. His power does not come from his training, and if it did, the movies did a shitty job of showing the progress of time. It certainly did with Rey.


Luke won because Vader pulled his punches and eventually just said 'screw it' and switched sides, that is pretty much it.
 
It diminished my enthusiasm for the sequel trilogy. It was hard to decide who was less intriguing or more inept, the Resistance or the First Order. There are no stakes when you couldn't care less about anyone in the picture. Lotta people bag on the Luke stuff. Didn't mind it. The disgraced Ronin thing, it worked for me. Liked all the island stuff. Everything else was a clumsily handled mess that barely retained any of the spirit of Star Wars.
 
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You don't know a lot about storytelling and narrative if you seriously think that a protagonist by definition has to be heroically good, capable and born-into-greatness by the token predetermined external explanations.

"born into greatness"

lol

Star Wars is, in the end, a family drama. It's plot has a lot of normal cinematic coincidences (Luke finding his sister immediately, and vice versa, meeting his future best friend and BiL at the beginning of the story, etc.). Those coincidences do mean everyone is a Mary Sue. They are necessary to set up the story with the right playing pieces.

Leia just happened to meet her brother who just happened to be able to have faith in someone seemingly completely evil having good in them. She just happened to be one of the leaders of the Resistance. Han just happened to make friends who cared enough about him to try to recover him from Jabba. You can use an absurd framing to make anyone seem like a Mary Sue, but they aren't.

Luke would have failed the trench run without his team - he (and several other pilots with similar skills from Tatooine) were being escorted so that they would have a shot at the port. He would have failed the Han rescue if he did not have a back-up plan with Lando and Leia - in fact, a simple mistake nearly got him killed (not knowing Hutts are immune to mind tricks).

From your style of argument, I assume you would just say the fighter escort and back-up plan just make him a Mary Sue as well.
 
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Luke won because Vader pulled his punches and eventually just said 'screw it' and switched sides, that is pretty much it.

He did that ONLY because Luke was right. "There is still goodness in you" Luke literally declares to his father. Instead of killing him, he makes a gamble, throws his lightsaber in front of the emperor and declares that he will not be turned to the dark side through vengence like his father did.

This character shift in Darth Vader is NOT the result of "pulling his punches" but because when Luke is being tortured by the Emperor, it is too much for Vader to bear. That is the epic climax of Anakins Saga.



"born into greatness"

lol

Star Wars is, in the end, a family drama. It's plot has a lot of normal cinematic coincidences (Luke finding his sister immediately, and vice versa, meeting his future best friend and BiL at the beginning of the story, etc.). Those coincidences do mean everyone is a Mary Sue. They are necessary to set up the story with the right playing pieces.

Leia just happened to meet her brother who just happened to be able to have faith in someone seemingly completely evil having good in them. She just happened to be one of the leaders of the Resistance. Han just happened to make friends who cared enough about him to try to recover him from Jabba. You can use an absurd framing to make anyone seem like a Mary Sue, but they aren't.

Luke would have failed the trench run without his team - he (and several other pilots with similar skills from Tatooine) were being escorted so that they would have a shot at the port. He would have failed the Han rescue if he did not have a back-up plan with Lando and Leia - in fact, a simple mistake nearly got him killed (not knowing Hutts are immune to mind tricks).

From your style of argument, I assume you would just say the fighter escort and back-up plan just make him a Mary Sue as well.

WTF are you talking about? The Skywalkers are all powerful. Anakins midiclorian count is off the charts!!111 OVER 9000! This is some 101 shounen shit. Just because a character is in danger doesnt make it not Mary Sue. Superman almost wiped out many times, but the fucking eagles are always there to swoop in and save the day. It doesnt matter if a character has help. What is it you don't fucking get about what a mary sue is? Its not just his power, and him getting help from his friends doesnt mean he is not a Mary Sue.



Is Han Solo born into a powerful family? 3PO? Lando? Chewbacca? No. He is capable, but he is not the key to any of this. Is Darth Vader? Yeah. Is Leia? Yeah. Who surprise- has the same powerful blood who makes Kylo Ren the evil that must be defeated. It's a family drama, but the skywalkers are mary sue as fuck. That power is not earned, it is just something they have. Why can't you comprehend this?



You are also wrong about Leia. What Obi tells Yoda that the galaxy is doomed, he refers to Leia because of Skywalker blood. Not because he is a resistance leader. Its made clear over and over that Luke is capable not because he fucks with speeders on tattooine. He is able to destroy the death star using the force, just like lil anakin can destroy a blockade of starships even though he is just a little snotty kid. Being a skywalker is having magic powers, even if you get help, even if you get some training, even if you are not immortal, you are still super powerful by the token of who you are. Mary Sue to the core. Just like fucking Harry Potter and superman and mickey mouse. Instantly good, instantly liked- get help from their friends bla bla bla, but is written and made to be good.

To say these characters are not Mary Sue is idiotic. Its clear as day. And there is nothing wrong with being a Mary Sue. Flawed, more nuanced characters are just more fun because there is always more drama, and character development, if they happen to be compelling characters as well.
 
Anakins midiclorian count is off the charts!!111 OVER 9000! This is some 101 shounen shit.

1. When ANH came out, midiclorians were not even an idea in Lucas' head. The Force was just supposed to be a spiritual phenomenon.
2. You brought up Naruto earlier. From the beginning, Naruto always had access to amazing chakra reserves from theJuubi - he just never tried seriously. He picked up on difficult skills nearly instantly, like in the very first episode where he learned the multi-shadow clone jutsu (a jonin or even kage-level technique) from just reading a scroll. Luke was barely able to use the force in ANH, even with training from Obi Wan. He got extensive training from Yoda, but abandoned it (leading to the problems at the beginning of RotJ). Hell, his appearance and demeanor at the beginning of RotJ were a bluff to try to intimidate Jabba - he had access to some basic tricks to use casually, but nothing like what Yoda could do in the OT (lifting a spacecraft).
 
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Composer

Member
I really truely dispised the movie. It is such garbage. And this is coming from some one who liked the OT and PT.

The entire premise of the ST is flawed and if can't be saved. This movie doubled down on the bad decisions in the worst ways.
 
1. When ANH came out, midiclorians were not even an idea in Lucas' head. The Force was just supposed to be a spiritual phenomenon.
2. You brought up Naruto earlier. From the beginning, Naruto always had access to amazing chakra reserves from the Chubi - he just never tried seriously. He picked up on difficult skills nearly instantly, like in the very first episode where he learned the multi-shadow clone jutsu (a jonin or even kage-level technique) from just reading a scroll. Luke was barely able to use the force in ANH, even with training from Obi Wan. He got extensive training from Yoda, but abandoned it (leading to the problems at the beginning of RotJ). Hell, his appearance and demeanor at the beginning of RotJ were a bluff to try to intimidate Jabba - he had access to some basic tricks to use casually, but nothing like what Yoda could do in the OT (lifting a spacecraft).


Lucas planned 9 movies from the very beginning, but realized that Episode 1-3 could not have been realized with the tech they had at the time. Its a well known fact that he had a saga planned out from the beginning. Regardless of midiclorians are a thing he had in mind at the beginning or not, the fact of the matter is that the correct interpretation of the OT is that the Skywalkers are this unbeliveable family. Anakin is born without a father (space jesus), Mace Windu explains to qui-gon he might be the one to bring balance to the force (born into destiny), and in the OT; Yoda and Obi-Wan literally say across many ocassions that only Luke can beat his father. Luke himself declares that his powerful force powers comes from their father (when explaining to Leia).

What does it matter if a character has had training to harness their power? You are still a mary sue. Awakened power still comes from a point of writing born-into-greatness as a part of the characters identity. Luke and Leia are so capable and able to resist this great evil because they are skywalkers. The Emperor is interested in Luke Skywalker because he is Skywalker. The Emperor doesnt care about him being good at hitting landspeeders or having training. No- Luke, like his father is endlessly beyond normal force sensitive jedi.

Both TFA and TLJ cooperates this idea about Kylo Ren. Kylo destroyed Lukes academy because he is so powerful and a threat. Luke was taken advantage of made to think in his visions that Kylo would kill the academy, and by unintended hesitation on Luke parts, he got his students killed, and Kylo Ren, the Skywalker villain was born.

Its a family saga, but this family is more powerful than any other. So it doesnt matter if its the OT, the prequels or the new movies. They all confirm the power and capabilities of the Skywalker blood. Mary Sues. As I said before, just because Skywalker awakens his power of a certain amount of time, or discovers the truth over a certain amount of time, the power still comes from him being a child of Anakin. Thats all there is to it.



Naruto is a Mary Sue too. But as I said, Mary Sues come in different forms. The drama with the Kyuubi is that the power within him is a curse as much as a blessing. The other villagers hate him, and when Naruto losses control, the Kyuubi is hurting his loved ones. Thats a dramatic twist on Mary Sue, but Mary Sue none the less. And as I said in the beginning, I dont hate Mary Sues or think Mary Sues are created equally. But a Mary Sue is a Mary Sue, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the difference between protagonists who were written to be that way, with protagonists who are not.
 

Uhtred

Member
It was very disappointing to me. For the first time since leaving TPM, and wondering what the hell did I just see, I was crushed. The decisions Rian made killed any momentum TFA built. What he did to the characters, was so sad to see. Poe, Finn, especially Luke, just butchered.

I felt like he was hot shot directing. I lost a lot of respect for his writing and directing. I don't know if he was under Kennedy's direction to do what he did or if he truly wrote what he wanted, but the end result is not what I wanted or expected at all, and not in a good shocking way, in a sad way.

Last time I saw Luke was what almost 35 years ago, and TFA made his whereabouts and discovery the most important thing in the galaxy, An entire movie was dedicated to finding him. And Rian turned him into an unrecognizable person. In fact Rian's constant dismissal of everything JJ set up was pretty infuriating. Its like he was on a mission to make TFA irrelevant, and I think that given time, TLJ will be looked at as Rian's folly, and not looked well upon at all.

I cant even get into Rey's character missteps, because that would take an entire thesis.

I disliked Rey's cop out direction
Poe's arc
Finn got the worst end of the stick. Man he had so much potential coming out of TFA, Jesus this was handled so bad.
Luke..........I don't even have the energy to go into detail.
The entire Canto scene was some TPM levels of bad. Actually scrtach that it was AOTC levels of bad.

I also have a problem of Disney's mandate that everyone can be a force user is ridiculous.
 
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Pretty crap. Found it to be a "one time watch" movie. All the intrigue was based around how it would continue from TFA. Then you get a movie that wipes it's ass with everything even remotely interesting from TFA, doesn't set up anything worthwhile for the next movie and ends in a way that makes you feel like the whole saga is over. Trying to watch it a second time feels pointless and it doesn't even have enough good action and adventure to carry it's limp story to popcorn viewing.
 

V4skunk

Banned
The worst Starwars movie of them all. The only one I hate.
Completely ruined Luke Skywalker, making him into a weakling.
Snokes death was also a joke after what they had built up with VII.
The space battles were pathetic and the best part of the film was the hyper space kamikaze.
 
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Mihos

Gold Member
He did that ONLY because Luke was right. "There is still goodness in you" Luke literally declares to his father. Instead of killing him, he makes a gamble, throws his lightsaber in front of the emperor and declares that he will not be turned to the dark side through vengence like his father did.

This character shift in Darth Vader is NOT the result of "pulling his punches" but because when Luke is being tortured by the Emperor, it is too much for Vader to bear. That is the epic climax of Anakins Saga..

He pulls in punches in every encounter with Luke from the beginning, he knows Luke is his son from at least the beginning of 4 when they tell him Skywalker is on Hoth.

He even talked the chimp eyed old lady into trying to spare him
 
He pulls in punches in every encounter with Luke from the beginning, he knows Luke is his son from at least the beginning of 4 when they tell him Skywalker is on Hoth.

He even talked the chimp eyed old lady into trying to spare him


Yes, but how does that go against anything I said? His internal conflict is" if there is still good in him", and he spends the trilogy struggling with that. Luke only lives after losing their battle because Vader gives him a chance to join him. Arguably, Darth Vader does not want to kill his son, but rule with him. If he didn't he wouldnt have hesitated to kill him. Vader is on the emperors side until the end and doesnt there go against him until Luke refuses to kill him.

It's a pacifist move by Luke because he is so good and kind. Obi and Yoda already gave up on redeeming Darth Vader long ago, but Luke still believes cuz he is just that nice of a guy!




He defeated himself, quite handily. Everything he was in the Last Jedi was a giant L branded on his forehead.

Exactly. Unexpected and a pivotal development for the character!
 

Mihos

Gold Member
Exactly. Unexpected and a pivotal development for the character!

No, it was shit. The entire narrative was conceived to try and appeal more to millennials. Everything from all the SJW narratives, to old people and traditions suck. They were chasing where they thought their future cash flow would come from.
 
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No, it was shit. The entire narrative was conceived to try and appeal more to millennials. Everything from all the SJW narratives, to old people and traditions suck. They were chasing where they thought their future cash flow would come from.

Really? What makes you think that something like that was to try and appease millennials?

There is nothing SJW about flawed nuanced characters. That has never gone out of style or is exclusive to one age demographic.

IMO, it would be more of a cash cow to continue with the same shit. Keep luke the same way, and sell more toys. It takes balls make your characters fall from grace. Kinda like how Wolverine was much more satisfying because shit actually happened, and characters died. Instead of like the previous movies where the hero always returns to sell you more comic books and toys. Thats the real cash. Killing your characters and saying fuck you when they have reached the end of their journey is much more of an OG move than do some lame Attack of the clones shit with Yoda flipping out like a moron.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
Really? What makes you think that something like that was to try and appease millennials?

There is nothing SJW about flawed nuanced characters. That has never gone out of style or is exclusive to one age demographic.

IMO, it would be more of a cash cow to continue with the same shit. Keep luke the same way, and sell more toys. It takes balls make your characters fall from grace. Kinda like how Wolverine was much more satisfying because shit actually hd Yoda lostappened, and characters died. Instead of like the previous movies where the hero always returns to sell you more comic books and toys. Thats the real cash. Killing your characters and saying fuck you when they have reached the end of their journey is much more of an OG move than do some lame Attack of the clones shit with Yoda flipping out like a moron.

Well, I am sure you and the new Star Wars will be very happy together. At least you won't have any trouble finding a place to park.

And Yoda lost, btw
 
Well, I am sure you and the new Star Wars will be very happy together. At least you won't have any trouble finding a place to park.

And Yoda lost, btw

It's okay to not like something after a certain period of time. Things change. They will always change, and things you were into before, you won't be into in the future.

For all the anger in this thread about how Star Wars has changed, it's not like people here haven't changed themselves. I wonder how kids growing up with these movies will feel.


My opinion doesn't matter and that is okay. These films weren't made with me in mind.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
He pulls in punches in every encounter with Luke from the beginning, he knows Luke is his son from at least the beginning of 4 when they tell him Skywalker is on Hoth.

this is the problem with the retonning of the series. when they shot 4 Vader was not Skywalker's father. this truth informed all of the performances through the film. it was only after ESB was filmed and ROTJ made that connection final and canonical that people started pretending it was all about Vader. what people fell in love with was not this massive narrative of interconnected stuff, it was the simple, pure, archetypal first film. that has been lost entirely in the fascist devotion to what is and isn't canon.

each film has a story but also works in the meta narrative of the overall series. the meta narrative continuously changed, from being about Luke, to being about Vader, over a process of decades. what people first fell in love with was not this deep lore film nor the meta narrative that Vader or the Skywalker family alone is all powerful and super important to some overarching story. TLJ fucks up by being entirely concerned with the meta narrative, at the expense of the film itself.

He even talked the chimp eyed old lady into trying to spare him


this is a remnant from an earlier, more interesting, more open-ended film series. this scene in particular has been replaced in order to retcon the meta narrative that it's always been about Vader. imo this is the true way to see the films, as originally produced, in the context of a single sequel, before all the comics and tie-ins.
 
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Mihos

Gold Member
this is the problem with the retonning of the series. when they shot 4 Vader was not Skywalker's father. this truth informed all of the performances through the film. it was only after ESB was filmed and ROTJ made that connection final and canonical that people started pretending it was all about Vader. what people fell in love with was not this massive narrative of interconnected stuff, it was the simple, pure, archetypal first film. that has been lost entirely in the fascist devotion to what is and isn't canon.

each film has a story but also works in the meta narrative of the overall series. the meta narrative continuously changed, from being about Luke, to being about Vader, over a process of decades. what people first fell in love with was not this deep lore film nor the meta narrative that Vader or the Skywalker family alone is all powerful and super important to some overarching story. TLJ fucks up by being entirely concerned with the meta narrative, at the expense of the film itself.



this is a remnant from an earlier, more interesting, more open-ended film series. this scene in particular has been replaced in order to retcon the meta narrative that it's always been about Vader. imo this is the true way to see the films, as originally produced, in the context of a single sequel, before all the comics and tie-ins.

I can dig that explanation. I remember the 'I am your father' thing in the theater like it was yesterday.
 
I don't hate it, but the longer that has passed, the more I find faults with it, and the lower my opinion of it goes. Right out of the theater I thought it was okay, maybe even good, but even by the time I had reached my car my opinion had dipped to passable to okay, as of today I would say it was rather poor.

The sad thing is most my issues with the film could have been worked out with another pass over the script. It really was the writing here that killed it for the most part with me. Everything felt like it was held together with old duct tape writing wise, and it just introduced problem after problem after problem and at a certain point your suspension of disbelief breaks and it all comes crashing down.
 

Takuan

Member
I thought it was watchable, with some laugh-out-loud stupid scenes.

1. Floating Space Princess
2. Rose's love confession

Everything else was fun enough.

I absolutely hate that liking or not liking this movie has become an expression of political stance in the US. Personally I think it’s a very bad movie, but still better than the prequel trilogy. It has bad pacing, doesn’t care about its characters, but some good scenes. It’s shit, but less shitty than the prequels.
Are you serious, or is this just what you've extracted from fringe loons on Twitter and other echo chambers on the internet? I had no idea this was a thing.
 
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guggnichso

Banned
I absolutely hate that liking or not liking this movie has become an expression of political stance in the US. Personally I think it’s a very bad movie, but still better than the prequel trilogy. It has bad pacing, doesn’t care about its characters, but some good scenes. It’s shit, but less shitty than the prequels.
 
I absolutely hate that liking or not liking this movie has become an expression of political stance in the US. Personally I think it’s a very bad movie, but still better than the prequel trilogy. It has bad pacing, doesn’t care about its characters, but some good scenes. It’s shit, but less shitty than the prequels.

It started with Ghostbusters, at least for movies. If you disliked it, you were obviously a 50s-esque misogynist who didn't want "funny" women to have screen time.

Which was kind of a dumb argument to start with from GB, as the big reason it was shit was the writing, not the actresses outside of McCarthy and maybe McKinnon, who was too hammy. Let's say 2.5 of the actresses could have done it well if they had better material. Leslie Jones was actually pretty great regardless.

But the "Misogynists hate us!" thing was a great way for the studio and director to shield themselves from criticism and defend poor performance. And that set an example for other studios as well now.
 
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