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[MarkRyan]

If that's what he means, then I agree--I've been hit by Guile's standing flash kicks way too many times.

But if he's saying that charge moves are unfair against QCF motions, then I disagree--charge motions have their advantages, and good players can exploit them. Plus, at least in Street Fighter, the moves themselves are balanced--like a Sonic Boom has quicker recovery than a fireball.

 

[Baron Aloha]

Mortal Kombat.

There are a ton of examples but the two big ones are:

1. CPU can throw you from just inside sweep distance.

2. The CPU's gets sped up sometimes like when you knock someone down and jump toward them they are able to recover instantly, jump into the air and knock you out of the air with a kick or punch. Also when you go to do an uppercut the CPU quickly ducks and counters with their own uppercut.

 

[123rl]

If that's what he means, then I agree--I've been hit by Guile's standing flash kicks way too many times.

But if he's saying that charge moves are unfair against QCF motions, then I disagree--charge motions have their advantages, and good players can exploit them. Plus, at least in Street Fighter, the moves themselves are balanced--like a Sonic Boom has quicker recovery than a fireball.

I agree. I actually like charge moves more because they need better timing and the rewards are usually better. Like in my example, you can start an attack while preparing the charge move then unleash it at the end of the combo.

 

[Ash Housewares]

as far as racing games, in Star Wars podracer when you played vs. and fell to 2nd place you'd get your accelration boost to help catch up but they didn't give any boost to your podracer's integrity so whenever you would nudge or slightly bump something you would explode

 

[Loki]

did the original mario kart to snes have rubberband ai? I know you can lap the opponents easily

Not really rubberband, since you can distance yourself from the pack if you're good, but not as much on 150cc. I've been playing Mario Kart again these past few days trying to get first place on Special Cup on 150cc, and it is as maddening as I remember. The freaking AI will allow the computer controlled racers to pass through thwomps, levitate over water and other debris, not lose speed on coarse ground, and will (and this is the WORST part) bump you INCESSANTLY on every crucial turn in the race, particularly during the last lap. This causes you to miss a lot of turns, since you try to cut them close, and then the freaking Princess or Donkey Kong come and GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to bump you off right before the turn.


It's amazing, because if you're nowhere near them, they'll run a perfect race, making all turns with precision. If you're near them, however, they get super aggressive and will drive off at ridiculous angles that they never would otherwise in order to bump you into the wall/water/thwomp/whatever. Crazy. As you can tell, I'm a bit frustrated.

Rubberband tightness goes up with classes. At 50cc there isn't much, but in 150cc it's rigid.

Didn't see this, but it's correct.

 

[DopeyFish]

Rubberband AI in Forza made me want to kill myself. It usually doesn't bother me but Forza's took the piss. MK: DD!! had disgusting rubberbanding as well...I could only finish the last comp. on 150cc in 2 player mode because of it.

When it comes to unfairness though, NOTHING comes close to God Of War. That last fucking level annoyed me to the point of almost smashing the PS2 into a hundred pieces. I'm a calm person but it made me want to kick a kitten through an electric fan*

(*bonus points for the person who tells me where this phrase comes from )

Forza doesn't have rubberband AI.

 

[MarkRyan]

Forza doesn't have rubberband AI.

Yes it does. I've done races where I gained 15+ seconds on the first lap, and then had the opponents maintain that exact same 15 second gap throughout the race even though my subsequent laps were better than the first.

 

[DopeyFish]

Yes it does. I've done races where I gained 15+ seconds on the first lap, and then had the opponents maintain that exact same 15 second gap throughout the race even though my subsequent laps were better than the first.

Your 2nd lap should ALWAYS be better than your first. Considering you are actually moving when crossing the line.

Normally I win by about 30-40 seconds each race, where's the rubberbanding? I'm almost lapping them! >.<

 

[MarkRyan]

Wait, are you serious? I just said where the rubberbanding was.

 

[123rl]

That's weird, Dopey, since I've had races where I'm at least two whole classes above the AI, done perfect laps and still only won by 1-2 seconds. Even with vastly superior cars and perfect racing, one crash is all it takes and a perfect race (and, you'd expect, a massive lead) is wiped out since the other cars are just a few seconds behind

Example - an A3 rank Honda Integra racing against B class Integras. I did two perfect laps and built up a lead of about 10 seconds. Last lap, despite making NO misakes, my lead was down to 3 seconds. Last corner, still no mistakes and racing perfectly, the AI cars smack into me, I hit a wall and slow down and two other cars overtake me.

 

[DopeyFish]

That's weird, Dopey, since I've had races where I'm at least two whole classes above the AI, done perfect laps and still only won by 1-2 seconds. Even with vastly superior cars and perfect racing, one crash is all it takes and a perfect race (and, you'd expect, a massive lead) is wiped out since the other cars are just a few seconds behind

Example - an A3 rank Honda Integra racing against B class Integras. I did two perfect laps and built up a lead of about 10 seconds. Last lap, despite making NO misakes, my lead was down to 3 seconds. Last corner, still no mistakes and racing perfectly, the AI cars smack into me, I hit a wall and slow down and two other cars overtake me.

What upgrades did your A3 integra have the B class integras?

A new set of tires and a new transmissions automatically takes a B1 to an A3

 

[123rl]

I can't remember but it was probably weight reduction, custom transmission, new suspension, new tires, and an engine upgrade. The fact is though that my car was better, and I was in a faster car but the enemies could keep up easily

 

[VALIS]

Yes it does. I've done races where I gained 15+ seconds on the first lap, and then had the opponents maintain that exact same 15 second gap throughout the race even though my subsequent laps were better than the first.

Huh? That is not rubberband. At all. Rubberband is when the CPU opponents drive inexplicably better than you do to close a gap that they otherwise shouldn't have. If you drive a good lap and they catch up from 10 seconds behind, that is rubberband. If you drive a good lap and they drive a just as good or even slightly better lap than you, that is NOT rubberband. They're allowed to drive just as well as you are, y'know, even if they had a lousy first lap. Forza does not have rubberband AI, nor does the GT series. In Burnout, it's overwhelmingly apparant.

 

[op_ivy]

Rubberband AI in Forza made me want to kill myself. It usually doesn't bother me but Forza's took the piss. MK: DD!! had disgusting rubberbanding as well...I could only finish the last comp. on 150cc in 2 player mode because of it.

rubberband ai in forza... what?

 

[DopeyFish]

I can't remember but it was probably weight reduction, custom transmission, new suspension, new tires, and an engine upgrade. The fact is though that my car was better, and I was in a faster car but the enemies could keep up easily

It's also how you drive your car too. If you don't take a corner perfect, it can chew .2 seconds or even more. Turning is a VERY integral part of the game.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

i certain Racing section in mafia comes to mind


Forza does not have rubberband AI. Once my car is upgraded sometimes i win by 30 to 40 seconds. I have seen cars crash way behind me even cause the viper would go into a turn too fast.


First MArk ryan claims GT4 has better AI than forza and now this.....yikes.

 

[pj]

rubberband AI is good in racers imo, makes the race more exciting. It turns it into you vs the course instead of you vs another driver. And really, if you arent racing a real person it should be about obtaining absolute course perfection.

That may be true for regular racing games, but it isn't for racing games with traffic. It's impossible to drive perfect lines in outrun 2, since there's usually a car or semi in your way. Rubberband AI plus traffic means you need luck more than skill to win.

 

[miyuru]

If you play CVS2 on 'Cube with GC-ism, you can perform charge moves without charging. It's quite hilarious

 

[Xenon]

I think he means because the AI can do charge moves seemingly without charging them ie Guile in SF2 would do a Sonic Boom and then do another less than second later, even though it requires a holding back for two seconds

Thats what I meant. Charge moves are fine. Though I do hate doing "super" charge moves, only because I can never seem to pull them off in the heat of a fight. =P

 

[MarkRyan]

Huh? That is not rubberband. At all. Rubberband is when the CPU opponents drive inexplicably better than you do to close a gap that they otherwise shouldn't have. If you drive a good lap and they catch up from 10 seconds behind, that is rubberband. If you drive a good lap and they drive a just as good or even slightly better lap than you, that is NOT rubberband. They're allowed to drive just as well as you are, y'know, even if they had a lousy first lap. Forza does not have rubberband AI, nor does the GT series. In Burnout, it's overwhelmingly apparant.

Rubberband AI is AI that changes difficulty depending on your performance--if you're doing poorly, the AI stays back with you, if you're racing well the AI gets more difficult.

Would it help if I clearly stated that my vehicle was better than my opponents'? On hard difficulty, you can't get a 15 second lead on your opponents without having a vehicle that's significantly better.

First MArk ryan claims GT4 has better AI than forza and now this.....yikes.

1) You are an idiot. 2) Is it impossible for you guys to talk about Forza without bringing up Gran Turismo?

 

[Kabuki Waq]

personal insults now?

nice.

 

[Speevy]

1) You are an idiot. 2) Is it impossible for you guys to talk about Forza without bringing up Gran Turismo?

You really brought that one on yourself. Perhaps if you hadn't participated in so many threads that compared one game to the other, people wouldn't associate you with the idea.

 

[MarkRyan]

personal insults now?

It's more factual than your straw-manning what I've said in previous threads.

 

[DopeyFish]

Rubberband AI is AI that changes difficulty depending on your performance--if you're doing poorly, the AI stays back with you, if you're racing well the AI gets more difficult.

No. There's a difference between driving with more risk/less risk when playing. It's not depending on your performance. If someone is in first they will play the less risk game.... why risk if it could screw up their race? they're already in 1st! When you're further back you end up taking more risks because you want to place higher or win...

Quite a difference from rubberband. Rubberband is speeding up and slowing down based on where YOU are, not based on the race. So if YOU race better, then they race better. If YOU race like crap then they will race like crap.

If you slowed down, Forza racers will not slow down for you. They will whip your ass into the ground for being a dumb driver. They don't automatically just "speed up" when you're in the lead either. It all depends on how well you, and how well they are taking their turns, because that's where all the magic happens. And that's where all the risk comes from... at the turns.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

You really brought that one on yourself. Perhaps if you hadn't participated in so many threads that compared one game to the other, people wouldn't associate you with the idea.

exactly. Honestly the man said GT4 has good AI ? ...... how can anyone trust his word on racing AI now?

thats all I was saying. It would be like hitler giving us a lecture on world peace or Boogie giving sex advice.

 

[MarkRyan]

Rubberband is speeding up and slowing down based on where YOU are, not based on the race. So if YOU race better, then they race better. If YOU race like crap then they will race like crap.

Er, that's exactly what I said. Where are we disagreeing?

exactly. Honestly the man said GT4 has good AI ?

You're guilty of straw manning and ad hominem--any other logical fallacies in which you'd like to demonstrate expertise?

 

[DopeyFish]

Er, that's exactly what I said. Where are we disagreeing?

Forza doesn't have AI based on where you race, but where they are in the race. That's what I'm trying to get at.

 

[olimario]

Bo Jackson

 

[Speevy]

You're guilty of straw manning and ad hominem--any other logical fallacies in which you'd like to demonstrate expertise?

Let's see if we can keep this logical then.

If there is a standard by which the subject of your argument is measured, then that standard can be brought into the argument. (in this case, racing game AI)

There is a standard by which the subject of your argument is measured.

Therefore, that standard can be brought into the argument.


Also, strawman can be defined like this. "the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker than) the opposition's best argument"

Your best argument is that Forza's AI is no good. However, without that standard, you're just calling him an idiot and using Ad-Hominem yourself. With GT4 as your backup, you may be correct.

 

[123rl]

ffs does it matter what one person thinks? He thinks one thing, you obviously think another. Talk about taking things into the realms of petty and unnecessary

 

[COCKLES]

I nominate Shox for having the worst rubberband AI ever. Even if you used the shox wave thing and did perfet laps the AI cars would stay just behind you.

No nothing beats the rubberband antics of TT Manx on the Saturn.

 

[Sanjuro]

Super Out-Run for SNES. I believe its the grey car MAYBE the yellow, but you'll win a few races then that fucker beats the living shit out of you until GAME OVER.

 

[bionic77]

Not really rubberband, since you can distance yourself from the pack if you're good, but not as much on 150cc. I've been playing Mario Kart again these past few days trying to get first place on Special Cup on 150cc, and it is as maddening as I remember. The freaking AI will allow the computer controlled racers to pass through thwomps, levitate over water and other debris, not lose speed on coarse ground, and will (and this is the WORST part) bump you INCESSANTLY on every crucial turn in the race, particularly during the last lap. This causes you to miss a lot of turns, since you try to cut them close, and then the freaking Princess or Donkey Kong come and GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to bump you off right before the turn.


It's amazing, because if you're nowhere near them, they'll run a perfect race, making all turns with precision. If you're near them, however, they get super aggressive and will drive off at ridiculous angles that they never would otherwise in order to bump you into the wall/water/thwomp/whatever. Crazy. As you can tell, I'm a bit frustrated.




Didn't see this, but it's correct.

In SMK the boost becomes super important in 150cc. Because of the bastard CPU drivers it is just much easier to stay in front without having to worry about what they will do. If you have the skill you can still destroy the cpu on 150cc. Damn, that was such a great game in multiplayer. Still the best cart racer even more than a decade later.

And why do racers have rubberband AI anyways? What is the point? Do they think it makes the game more realisitic somehow?

 

[pj]

And why do racers have rubberband AI anyways? What is the point? Do they think it makes the game more realisitic somehow?

Because it's easier than programming GOOD AI.

 

[DopeyFish]

Because it's easier than programming GOOD AI.

Also it does free up a lot of load on the processor.

 

[worldrunover]

The problem with Mario Kart is not only is there rubberbanding but last place gets better weapons. It's a double-whammy.

 

[Loki]

In SMK the boost becomes super important in 150cc. Because of the bastard CPU drivers it is just much easier to stay in front without having to worry about what they will do. If you have the skill you can still destroy the cpu on 150cc. Damn, that was such a great game in multiplayer. Still the best cart racer even more than a decade later.

Yeah, I agree. It's one of the top 2 or 3 multiplayer games of all time imo. My friends and I used to have wars with that game. And I've placed first on all cups in 150cc before, but that was many years ago. I'm trying to do it now, but that damn Special Cup is kicking my ass-- I've only placed second.

 

[pj]

Well, I just beat the last race in outrun 2, which means I no longer care about unfairness, and anyone who does is a loser.

 

[LakeEarth]

Mortal Kombat.

There are a ton of examples but the two big ones are:

1. CPU can throw you from just inside sweep distance.

2. The CPU's gets sped up sometimes like when you knock someone down and jump toward them they are able to recover instantly, jump into the air and knock you out of the air with a kick or punch. Also when you go to do an uppercut the CPU quickly ducks and counters with their own uppercut.

What I was gonna write. Seeing Kung Lao throw you out of a sweep at fricking SWEEP RANGE is enough to never play MK2 beyond very easy mode unless you exploit the AI.

And about charge moves, don't forget blanka's roll, how does he do it walking forward :lol. At least 3rd Strike doesn't do any of that bullshit, though it does do some beyond human quick reactions sometimes.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I actually think Square games are like this. Because I always find myself having to randomly fight to level up. That is bullshit. It's like I get punished for battling the bosses great.

 

[sangreal]

http://www.research.microsoft.com/mlp/forza/FMD_AI.htm

Don’t you just hate it when computer opponents drive perfectly all the time? Perhaps the only thing worse is when they deliberately limit (or artificially increase) their maximum speed to allow you to catch up (or to catch you). This is commonly known as "rubber-banding".

If Forza has "rubber-banding", I reckon it most certainly was not intentional.

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

Am I the only one who had zero problems with Alma in Ninja Gaiden? I didn't even know people were having problems until I heard so many complaints. However, the boss later on who's a blue ghost (or something... it's been a long time since I played), that one gave me major pain.

Midnight Club II is almost just as difficult as F-Zero GX. You need to race perfectly in either since the AI is ruthless.

 

[sangreal]

I had a little trouble with Alma my first time through. Subsequent plays on higher difficulty yielded no problems.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Flipnic. Biology board, the area with multiball available. After you lose multiball, if you don't reactivate it in that area within 30 seconds (or leave the area), a UFO comes along and picks up your ball, and you lose it. What kind of rules-of-good-pinball-breaking bullshit is that? This happens every time you reenter that area, too.

 

[bionic77]

Because it's easier than programming GOOD AI.

I would rather have shitty AI than rubberband AI.

 

[Open Source]

World Series Baseball 2K2 for DC (All-Star difficulty). You could be ahead by 10 runs going to the bottom of the 9th and have Mariano Rivera on the mound nailing the corners with every pitch and they'd score 11 runs.

 

[pjberri]

I don't mind shit like rubber band AI so much, because at least that keeps the race somewhat exciting.
What I hate is cheap gameplay that forces you to slowly, and often arduously, chip away at whatever it is. Good examples are boooooooring fighting game bosses like Gill in SF3 and the hand in SSB:M. I mean, neither are particularly difficult once you adjust, but the way you have to fight against them is just so ridiculously boring.

 

[isamu]

Trackmania Sunrise....I'll explain why another time.

 

[worldrunover]

I actually think Square games are like this. Because I always find myself having to randomly fight to level up. That is bullshit. It's like I get punished for battling the bosses great.

I agree with this totally. It's like, the random battles aren't mind-numbing enough, we're gonna force you to not only drag them out but participate in many many more of them, or else you can't advance. Bullshit.

 

[EB Guy]

Every single NBA 2K game, if you're up in the last 2 minutes, brace yourself. You will bare witness to a large amount of CPU steals and triple teaming without being able to inbound the ball. If you did happen to inbound it and somehow got a pass off, it was always off target and out of bounds for a turnover. Those poor, poor Dreamcast controllers never saw it coming.