openrob
Member
Do you know why they still have ashtrays in Airplanes?
http://uk.businessinsider.com/airplane-ashtrays-bathroom-2015-10?r=US&IR=T
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I just realized... future generations won't know CRT anymore
- Thread starter deoee
- Start date
Do you know why they still have ashtrays in Airplanes?
http://uk.businessinsider.com/airplane-ashtrays-bathroom-2015-10?r=US&IR=T
Makoto-Yuki
Banned
good riddance. i don't see any reason why anyone should use them anymore for gaming. i'll take any drawbacks that a modern TV has if it means i don't break my back trying to move the tv.
How regularly do you move your tv?
the thoroughbred
Member
That's brilliant, I love facts like that.
I was referring to the ones on the backs of the headrests or on the armrest.
One a side note: I recently bought an E-class. I couldn't believe there is no option, on the website anyway, for a smokers package. All other manufacturers offer one. So I contacted Mercedes and they can put one in for me, it must only be the UK that doesn't offer them. They want around £250. But I'll get it done. For ol' times sake. Saves a lot of ash flying around and dirtying the whole car.
Been scrolling through waiting for someone to respond well to that post. LCD never should have hit TVs outside of smaller displays, i.e. below 30 or 40 inches where Plasma displays seemingly were never manufactured, and all larger panels should have just been Plasma full stop; even then I wish Plasmas were made that small as well. After getting my Samsung 59PND8000 in 2011 I vowed never to buy an LCD TV again, even though VA panels are a huge improvement to the ubiqitous TN.
It's a shame input lag hasn't been solved on the manufacturing side of modern TVs without having to enable PC or Game modes which have to disable any granular picture quality settings to obtain that better response time. I only ever enable PC mode for Smash 4, coincidentally with the Smash narrative in this thread, but for everything else I just adjust to the native lag of the TV as I'm not willing to give up the picture quality for the improved input response.
I understand why they were phased out but it would have softened the blow having CRTs replaced by an actual hetter technology, especially on the picture quality front, as even Plasmas don't have the motion resolution benefits CRT had. Gonna hold on to my JVC 20 inch and Sony PVM 14 inch for retro gaming until they die, and likely stock up on backups just in case. Not to mention playing Gen 7 games even on SD CRTs is a treat, instant input response is so blissful and being able to see nearly every detail in motion in a 60 FPS game is a treat.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
I picked up a 14" Toshiba CRT this past summer--seemed like their take on the Wega--complete with Component and S-Video and headphone jack. $10 in a yard sale. Had the remote, too! My wife looked at me like I was crazy, me grinning ear to ear.
I've got a CRT family going. Got the big daddy 36" HD Wega, a 24" Wega, and the baby Toshiba.
When I have Street Fighter Night at my place in a couple of weeks to celebrate SFV, all old school SF will be on those.
I've got a CRT family going. Got the big daddy 36" HD Wega, a 24" Wega, and the baby Toshiba.
When I have Street Fighter Night at my place in a couple of weeks to celebrate SFV, all old school SF will be on those.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
My CRT died a few weeks ago
That sucks. My big Wega seems to have a short on the video board (dunno what to call it, on the back where I am plugging all my consoles in, so component/s-video connections). Screen goes black or stutters in and out till I tug ever so slightly on one of the inputs on the back to find a sweet spot. This has happened since forever though so it isn't age. I think it was me overloading it with heavy ass component cables back in the day. Had every input plugged in. Anyway, if it ever goes, will take off the shell and see if it's just loose or something.
nkarafo
Member
Yeah it's kinda depressing that future generations will think that input lag and image ghosting are the default.
Just how many times per day you move your TV?
So the ability to move your TV is more important than quality?
Just how many times per day you move your TV?
Expense. LCDs are cheaper to manufacture, ship, and consume far less power. LCDs are also being mass-manufactured in the millions. You can't match that scale. You can buy CRT montiors and CRT projectors to this day, they're just expensive and intended for industrial or commercial applications. Even then there are none capable of 4k.
Because of the requirements of manufacturing, they're not really something that can just pop up from a limited supply artisnal supplier like some people expect. All the parts including the giant glass screens would need to be engineered and machined to perfection.
Seems like you already know the answer. Early plasmas were still more expensive than lcds, and also more power hungry, and more fragile. Most consumers don't give a fuck about image quality as long as it says the right things on the box.
nkarafo
Member
This is the most important thing for me.
I'm the only one among my friends who still uses a CRT PC monitor. Everyone else got rid of them years ago. But whenever i show them a comparison (in real time) of how much better the CRT image is while in motion, compared to any LCD, everyone feels like they shouldn't throw them away, lol.
There is a HUGE difference in image quality while in motion. I still haven't seen any LCD screen being as sharp as a CRT, during motion. And that's especially noticeable in 2D scrolling games. Sonic Generations at 60fps on a CRT is like a different game. The only thing you can do on a LCD to improve this is to enable a ton of motion filters that add so much input lag, it makes games unplayable.
TouchMyBox
Member
Poor kids won't experience the same headaches we experienced and that awful high-pitched whine.
Have you tried ULMB? It's some next-level shit.
Have you tried ULMB? It's some next-level shit.
Ol No Bones
Banned
I have a giant wooden Sony CRT in the house. It's so difficult to move that it has become part of the structural integrity of the house and won't be moved
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
nkarafo
Member
Some older CRT TVs emitted a high pitched frequency that some people could notice.
An older CRT my parents bought in 1982 had this issue. All other TVs and monitors that i went through didn't have it though.
TouchMyBox
Member
Only some people can hear it. We can tell when a crt tv is turned on as soon as we enter a house.
I don't think I've been around a crt I couldn't hear. They did get much more tolerable though.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Huh. Never knew this. I know that initial hum when you first turn it on, that's it.
Rhys Wilde
Banned
Current younger generations already have issues with normal monitors, I don't think they can even comprehend a CRT.
I used to work at a burger joint where we had monitors that faced the consumers on the other side of the register; it just had a big picture of our logo/current promotions and would display their orders. All of the younger kids would come up and try to touch it to place their order and would then ask if it was broken when it didn't work.
I used to work at a burger joint where we had monitors that faced the consumers on the other side of the register; it just had a big picture of our logo/current promotions and would display their orders. All of the younger kids would come up and try to touch it to place their order and would then ask if it was broken when it didn't work.
Do you mean Light Boost? From what I have read while it does give vastly improved motion resolution it comes at the cost of nearly halved light output from the monitor; that's a good step in the right direction but it's still married with poor TN technology unless they've gotten light boost to work on IPS or VA panels.
There definitely is a huge difference when it comes to motion resolution, the majority of LCD panels have terrible motion resolution and even Plasmas don't get the maximum 1080 lines; they both require motion interpolation to achieve better and that brings along all kinds of artifacting garbage. Seeing pixel art smoothly scroll on a CRT is beautiful.
It's a crying shame, that's why LCDs rose so quickly; the thin profile and lighter weight of large sets was worth it to your average consumer over the shit veiwing angles, terrible black levels, and poor color accuracy along woth deplorable motion resolution and massive color smearing and blurring.
Edit: My bad, your focus was on LCD vs Plasma early on. Yeah, all the FUD spread about Plasmas too didn't help i.e. you have to replace the phosphor gas, burn in within seconds, massive power bills etc.
TouchMyBox
Member
Lightboost is essentially the same thing as ULMB, but is a marketing term specifically for nvidia 3D Vision for S3D applications. But yeah, that's the idea. I have the Acer XB270HU which is IPS and does ULMB, so they definitely exist and are pretty awesome. The halved-light thing is true, but this monitor on max brightness is way too bright for my tastes to begin with, so it's not a big issue for me personally.
Generally the larger or higher frequency ones were worse. I had a 27" CGA crt for arcade games that was loud but a lower frequency but my 21" diamondtron put out the worst whine you can imagine once you pushed it up past 1600x1200. I tried replacing the flyback, but I just resorted to wearing headphones or dropping the resolution if I needed to.
Second hand smoke
My primary home displays are all CRTs. Televisions, monitors, whatever. Yes, they're a pain to move but I seldom move them. I am far too accustomed to the superior blacks and perfect response time. Yes, they require a fair bit more maintenance than your average LCD (...and they're gigantic) but it doesn't bother me.
I've used many an LCD in my day and have felt no desire whatsoever to switch. It feels -- to me, anyway -- like paying a lot more for a lot less.
...Not that I don't understand or appreciate the advantages of LCD, but many of them are artificial and caused by HDCP compliance leaving CRTs in the dust and the rest of them have no relevance to me at all.
I've used many an LCD in my day and have felt no desire whatsoever to switch. It feels -- to me, anyway -- like paying a lot more for a lot less.
...Not that I don't understand or appreciate the advantages of LCD, but many of them are artificial and caused by HDCP compliance leaving CRTs in the dust and the rest of them have no relevance to me at all.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Always wondered if there was any fundamental difference between PC monitors and crt TV sets, besides the hookups. Are they pretty much the same things?
PC CRT monitors operated in the RGB color space where consumer SD CRT sets were Ypb/pr component at best which is a compressed form of RGB and has less available colors. Both are analogue but of course the CRT PC monitor was progressive where consumer sets were interlaced (aside from 240p with scanlines on consumer sets of course) and PC CRT monitors had much higher resolutions and refresh rates as well.
nkarafo
Member
One issue CRT monitors have is that they flicker at 60hz. Unlike LCDs that never do due to their design, CRTs need at least 75hz to make flickering impossible to notice. My default is 85hz but whenever i play any game that is locked at 60 or 30fps, i have to use 60hz for perfect syncing (maximum is 100 unfortunately). Retro games/emulation like old consoles such as Mega Drive, SNES, NES, etc that are locked to 60hz look amazing but i have to deal with the 60hz flickering, although it gets less noticeable from a distance.
Honestly, I don't really miss CRTs. Too many people exaggerate their capability.
0ms input lag, sure, but the difference between that and sub-50ms is imperceptible to nearly everyone marking that distintion. Another trait that's often touted is color accuracy. The colors might be exact, but the overall image is hampered by design, making the benefit of even professional grade tubes a tradeoff at best.
LCD has come a long way, and when Samsung jumps back in the OLED ring, we'll likely see a dramatic improvement to an already stunning display.
0ms input lag, sure, but the difference between that and sub-50ms is imperceptible to nearly everyone marking that distintion. Another trait that's often touted is color accuracy. The colors might be exact, but the overall image is hampered by design, making the benefit of even professional grade tubes a tradeoff at best.
LCD has come a long way, and when Samsung jumps back in the OLED ring, we'll likely see a dramatic improvement to an already stunning display.
The first part of your post might be true but that's irrelevant for those that do notice. As for the second part, the main issue with high-quality tubes is that getting perfect geometry often takes a fair bit of work, but that's hardly a tradeoff, at least as far as image quality is concerned.
MythicReclaimer
Member
I still have the Sony HMD A400 CRT Monitor which is another great piece of hardware.
Yep, I am certainly a CRT junkie with a Sony 34XBR960, Sony 34XBR970, and a Sony 27in Trinitron to go along with the aforementioned monitor.
I have to disagree, honestly if you choose a game that relies on any kind of precision timing that you play often the difference in input lag at nearly any level is immediately noticeable.
LCDs have gotten better, no denying that, but the fact of the matter is even the best consumer TVs with hundreds of dimming zones in the rear backlight still have poor off angle viewing and poor motion resolution without interpolation, not to mention blooming due lightbleed from the lit zones leaking light into the non-lit zones; this can range from terrible to minor depending on the model and manufacturer but it is still an issue regardless.
OLED is poised to beat even Plasma but unfortunately it will still suffer blurring due to how it uses sample and hold like LCDs although I think there has been OLED panels with black frame insertion that mitigate this at the expense of massive input lag being introduced.
AppleSeason
Member
Not a lot will be lost. It is a pain that many don't know any more how old games were supposed to look, but it's the price to pay for not having to lift those monsters or not getting enough eye-screen distance because I've never had enough physical space to handle those beasts.
I wish I could have a CRT screen or even a TV, but I can't afford the space they take.
I wish I could have a CRT screen or even a TV, but I can't afford the space they take.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I keep trying to find a crt for my classic gaming, but can't find one locally.
It's breaking my heart.
It's breaking my heart.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
just found a fucking widescreen trinitron on craigslist, for FREEEEEEE, exactly the same as the one I used to own, except bigger! Guess I can skip the gym today, I'll be getting my pump on lifting this fucker into my car. fucking yisssss. Gonna play the shit outta the Prime Trilogy on this baby
look at that pure sexiness
look at that pure sexiness
Cizeta-Moroder
Banned
Hopefully future generations won't know LCD either. LPD could pick up where CRT left. Or at least OLED
23 and never associated those two items, but if I had to guess, you use the pen to manually reel the tape in case of mechanical failure?
Heh. At 46 I've got a laundry-list of everyday items that time has forgotten.
23 and never associated those two items, but if I had to guess, you use the pen to manually reel the tape in case of mechanical failure?
Huge Succeeded
Banned
nope, wrong.
you use the pencil to manually reel the tape in case of mechanical failure
captain_skyhawk
Member
This is one situation where new generations are better off to be honest.
nkarafo
Member
I used this method, not because of a mechanical failure but because my walkman was too slow rewinding or fast forwarding (to save batteries perhaps) so this trick was much faster.
and yet all the best gamers in the world play on 1ms 144hz LEDs
the only huge benefit is better color accuracy/black levels, everything else is a non-issue if you get an actual good LCD monitor. And I'll take 16:9 with worse color over 4:3 any day of the week. But have fun living in the past pretending CRTs look better
and yet all the best gamers in the world play on 1ms 144hz LEDs
the only huge benefit is better color accuracy/black levels, everything else is a non-issue if you get an actual good LCD monitor. And I'll take 16:9 with worse color over 4:3 any day of the week. But have fun living in the past pretending CRTs look better
Not shocked that absolutely nothing you said actually addresses my post. Form factor convenience and an appeal to false authority (pro gamers) is not indicative of superiority in technology (and no, not all pro gamers across all games favor LEDs). The broadcast and professional video industry moved en masse to flat panel grading monitors before the tech was ready and everyone found themselves stuck with inferior LCDs in comparison to objectively superior pro CRTs. Only OLEDs in recent years have brought picture/video quality back up to snuff. LCD/LED is inferior tech.
That gamers have moved on to gamer-quality monitors that try their absolute damndest to mimic the inherent qualities in years-old CRTs is a ringing endorsement of my arguing points. Look up low persistence displays to see how panel manufacturers are trying to finally rid the ever present motion blur of even the best 144z panels... and then look up what that in turn does to contrast levels and input lag. A constant tradeoff to even approach matching CRTs.
Second, many gamers seek out CRTs because they show off retro games as they were intended by the original artists: scanlines, subtle softness, blending techniques, etc. Not blown up, pixelated, stark cold clarity and not with copious amounts of motion blur and game-hampering input lag from the digital processing of newer displays and the emulation of non-original gaming hardware. It's really ignorant and narrow minded to say such a person is stuck in the past when we have Digital Foundry threads were people obsesses over pixel peeping, minor resolution differences, tiny FPS drops, subtle environment effects, etc... and if someone like you walked in criticizing the people in those threads you would get laughed out so fast, or worse depending on who's watching the thread.
Finally I own a 1440p IPS panel, a 50" Panasonic plasma TV,720p Sony LCD, OLED Vita, a broadcast level SD CRT monitor and a professional grade HD CRT monitor. I'm not stuck in the past. I simply keep my options open and choose not to be ignorant and foolish.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Still have a Samsung flatpanel squirreled away in case of a raging desire to play PS2/GC/PS1 games
I only replaced this 2 years ago with a 48' LED.
catpurrcat
Member
Absolutely. If anyone really wants a retro gaming type of picture, do a bit of a search and get yourself an older LCD tv with an s-video port.
Good riddance to CRT TVs.
Who or what gave you the idea this is a good suggestion? OLD LCDs are the worst of the worst trash displays, with horrendous viewing angles, awful amounts of ghosting and lag that straight up makes old games with tight controls unplayable. And there's nothing about it that yields a retro gaming type of picture.
Edit: and unless you owned a mammoth sized CRT, the money savings between a CRT and an efficient LCD are like $10-20 a year. Yay. Plasmas at their common sizes (40-50") were more power hungry than even CRTs.
So much bad info ITT.
That's just it, the one's that would notice the difference are in an extreme minority. I'm one of the few people that can distinguish sub-50ms differences, but even still, I'd be hard pressed to differentiate between 0ms and the 26ms my LCD outputs. Someone out there likely can, but it'd be highly improbable to surmize that the number of people claiming, with regards to CRT Televisions, such a feat are actually capable of doing so.
To be honest, I'm not familiar with calibrating geometry on CRTs. I'll take your word on that. My point was simply that even the best CRT image will likely have inaccuracies, even if color and latency are non-issues.
"Nearly any level" is rather vague, and for most people, that 'level' begins above 50ms. I agree that LCD isn't perfect by any means.
OLED certainly has a ways to go before it becomes the "all around" best option, but I see it beating out both LCD and Plasma in the near future. Color and blacks are essentially flawless and viewing angles are limitless. Cost aside, latency seems to be the biggest issue currently.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
60Hz would give me a grinding headache if the game was running deinterlaced. That shimmer was the promise of pain.
The CRT whine never bugged me tho.
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