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I know we all hate Trump, but is going for his impeachment so hard a bad thing?

I'll preface this thread with the fact I have a Masters and am working on my PhD in Political Science and that I am also an evil Jewish Libertarian. Socially liberal and fiscally moderate.

<snip>
So if he is ousted we will get Pence and the Democratic party will have expended any little bit of political capitol they have on getting rid of him. This same level of hate and ire does not exist for Pence. I would say people may even want to give Pence a chance for a term or two because Trump was ousted, etc.
<snip>

Would be interested to hear what others think.

You post is literally, "Hey guys he is not that bad"

You have a masters in Political Science and this is what you came up with? Trump is a corrupt conman who is a Russian puppet due to being a bad business man. He stole an election with Russia's help. Dirty politicians should be held accountable. Always.
 
I agree with you 100% OP. Dems need to be worrying about having strong candidates for the 2018 elections. Get the GOP and Ryan out of Congress. That's the biggest victory than can be achieved until the election in 2020.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
If he was cheating during the election he should be retroactively disqualified and the White House given to the remaining candidate who won the popular vote anyways.

alas
 

abundant

Member
Now this would be amazing and devestating. With his numbers I don't see how he wins, unless Hillary Clinton runs again.

Pretty much. He may or may not be impeached, but there's no way in hell a President with approval in the 30s is going to get reelected unless, by some miracle, he does a complete 180 and stops acting like a spoiled man-child .
 
1. I think if Trump goes, Pence gets taken down with him.
2. Even if Pence takes his place he'd be toothless. He would have zero political capital and not be able to accomplish anything of note.
3. If Trump gets taken down, the damage to the Republican party will be severe and could last for a considerable amount of time. No longer the "Party of Lincoln" which is kind of bullshit to begin with, but it'll be the "Party of Nixon and Trump."

I would say the only concern is the immediate-term dysfunction in the government and how Russia will try to take advantage of that, largely since that seems to be part of their overall goal. But ultimately, I believe, America comes out better on the other side.
 
Pretty much. He may or may not be impeached, but there's no way in hell a President with approval in the 30s is going to get reelected unless, by some miracle, he does a complete 180 and stops acting like a spoiled man-child .

You forget that he'll just let Russia hack into our elections again. He doesn't give a shit, as long as he wins.
 
I hear the underlying idea fairly often, the idea that "Pence might be worse!" if Trump were impeached or resigned for some other reason, but this is unlikely. If the president resigns or is impeached, it's a reflection on the entire administration and the vice president has virtually no sway. In the case of impeachment, that would mean a majority of congress believes that the president cannot serve, and if a majority of congress are swaying against the president, the vice president will have little pull over congress.

Beyond the simple result of impeachment being a broad rejection of the administration, Trump being impeached would also pre-empt dozens of his Administration staffers resigning or leaving their posts prior. Kushner, Bannon, and every other appointed Trump ally in his administration would be out. Priebus would likely have to resign though Priebus is more of the Pence-mold than a Trump acolyte, but he would have to resign because if you're Chief of Staff for a president who has been impeached or resigned, you can't possibly keep your job.

You can really only look throughout history at the results of impeachment or resignation. Every presidential censure, impeachment, or resignation is unique, so there's no pattern that can be gleaned, but prior to Nixon's resignation, there was a rotating door of appointees, chiefs of staff, influencers, and policy makers in his administration. His resignation was preceded by dozens of resignations (forced or voluntary) prior, conspicuously of course was the resignation of his vice president Spiro Agnew just months earlier. Gerald Ford was selected and confirmed as Vice President (after Agnew's resignation) only because he was respected, well liked in congress, was bipartisan, and largely without controversy, or strong, long-lasting political ambition. Prior to being selected as Vice President, Ford had no relationship with Nixon. He was from a different political camp as Nixon, was not a Nixonian Republican, had always supported Nixon's Republican opponents over Nixon, and acted largely independent from the President while he was House Minority Leader. Ford had no political clout following Nixon's resignation and his confirmation as president, he wasn't able to influence policy or foreign affairs in any way that was his own, he had to mostly follow the lead of congress (a congress that had started impeachment proceedings against his predecessor). Ford's only consequential action, of course, was pardoning Nixon. something that only the president can do and there is no recourse from congress on this (and ultimately, something that I think Ford was right in doing). Should impeachment proceedings be taken up against Trump or should Trump resign, there is a good chance that Pence might already be out as Vice President, much like Agnew had resigned (though, Agnew resigned because of his own political corruption independent from Nixon... Neither man even liked the other), though there isn't a Gerald Ford in the Republican party right now -- e.g., a prominent congressional Republican who is well known, well liked, or who has a track record of bipartisan legislation. Jim Boehner or Paul Ryan might have been that before they became Speakers of the House, but not anymore, and obviously Boehner is out of politics though he might have been the closest prominent Republican to a Gerald Ford.

This all said, I'd caution against the zeal in taking up every story as the smoking gun of impeachment, which many have done. I'm progressive and I'm mostly friends with just liberals or at least Anti-Trump moderates or Republicans (Largely... I live in a liberal state which has already had city councils call for Trump's impeachment), and the willingness to think This new randoms story is the smoking gun! probably hurts the chances that Trump would actually be impeached. Impeachment is a process and it's not easy, and whenever a story comes up in the Washington Post or New York Times about the latest Trumpian debacle, too many people jump to the "This is the smoking gun!" reaction, and of course, the news takes it's course, Trump is obviously not instantaneously impeached as a growing number think that's how it works, and then they're disenchanted with the political process which may end up help Trump or his supporters. If impeachment comes, it won't come swiftly, it will come with a groundswell of support for Trump opposition largely from Democrats, but also in places where Republicans in congress have shaky seats. Stalwart, consistent Republican strongholds are not going to suddenly embrace impeachment because there is no political incentive for them to do so, and considerable political risk.

Pursuing Trump's impeachment on whatever the latest story is isn't bad thing, but if you delude yourself into thinking that impeachment is imminent, whenever the latest negative, embarrassing, revealing story comes up in the Press, is a bad thing. Impeachment is a process and, personally, I think that Trump's resignation is a higher likelihood than Trump being impeached, but he'd do it in typical Trumpian style.
 

lush

Member
It's a process. I think it's more about keeping the cloud of these investigations over him and continuing to goad him in to these self-inflicted gaffes that he just can't stay away from. Barring any big breakthroughs it's all talk until Dems retake the House in 2018.

His approval polls are garbage and won't recover this barely half a year in. His base support will continue to deteriorate. The GOP will eventually have to start thinking about reelection and distancing themselves from trump(special elections around the country have to have them sweating already). Especially once we reach the end of this year with absolutely nothing to show for it. The ACHA seems deadish again in the Senate. I don't see how ramming that through helps them in the slightest, on the contrary.
 
If Trump gets impeached his replacement will be cut off at the knees and won't be able to get anything done, especially when you consider impeachment would probably lead to a Dem house in 2018.
 
If he was cheating during the election he should be retroactively disqualified and the White House given to the remaining candidate who won the popular vote anyways.

alas
I don't understand why the founding fathers didn't make this a part of the system from the start. It's one thing for the line of succession to kick in when a president steps down for reasons that are not nefarious, but they still get to have their way even if they facilitated the rise of a person so corrupt, dangerous or incompetent that they are impeached by the majority of the house, senate and public outcry? It should have been written into the constitution that impeachment results in the person with the second most votes in the presidential primary becoming the president (another reason to have an instant runoff system in case the second person is not able to step up to the presidency for whatever reason).
 

takriel

Member
I'd like a day where I don't have to see his stupid fucking face.

15oa1l.jpg


Ain't it lovely
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Instead of working so hard to impeach Trump instead you make sure you have a quality candidate for the next election and lay the ground work to make sure he is a one and done President. He has given you plenty of ammunition to do it and if you oust Trump it's still the same government that is in place right now passing the same things and targeting the same people. The people that come after Trump will appear like reasoned adults and that will earn them good will. We do not want that good will spent on someone like Pence.

wecandoboth.gif

Whether he actually gets impeached or not, Trump deserves to have that cloud hang over his head for the duration of his term, even if it is just for the dumb, unscrupulous, un-American shit he's done in the first few months alone. He doesn't deserve to be let off the hook just because the alternative might not seem much more palatable. If the alternative would respect our norms, laws and Constitution one iota better than him than we should always move in that direction.

And we had a quality candidate this election as well, but our politics are so good at running everyone through the mud, that most voters are conditioned to treat our presidential elections as though its always a choice of the lesser of two evils, even when you have someone as morally bereft and bankrupt of human decency as Trump running against people who are clearly nothing like that. But her emails.
 
I like how you felt the need to justify this opinion with proof that you are intelligent.

The amount of damage this vindictive monster has done both permanently and temporarily in less than 6 months is mind numbing. The Paris agreement, the travel ban, health care, Sessions, Flynn, Supreme Court Nomination, Voice, leaking intelligence, Firing Comey, Net neutrality, and I'm clearing missing things off that list. Most of these are on going issues that are impacting lives now, you can't play this waiting game and attempt to outlast the chaos.

Pence at least operates as a political tool that can be worked with under traditional circumstances.
 

Sorcerer

Member
Pence is Starscream to Trump's Megatron. Patiently delighted at the Trump Fiasco, it brings him one step closer to being President. I think Pence really feels Trump is a moron. Doesn't matter that Pence will not be a liked President, just as long as he can say he was President.
 

abundant

Member
You forget that he'll just let Russia hack into our elections again. He doesn't give a shit, as long as he wins.

For that to work this time, Russia would literally have to hack into our voting machines. Unlike Campaign Trump, who could get away with anything, President Trump is completely toxic and unwilling to change.
 
Trump's entire administration is damaged goods. No one wants to work with them. Can't even imagine how many people have turned down cabinet positions that we haven't heard about. Probably anyone interested in having a political career beyond 2020. Even if Trump got impeached, there's a solid chance that Rs would still get steamrolled next election.

Even if Pence and Ryan don't go down with Trump, they're going to be unelectable. Nobody even likes Pence outside of hardline evangelicals. His claim to fame before being VP was being a shit-ass governor that nobody liked. And Paul Ryan is a damn joke that can't even write a decent bill with 6 years of prep time.
 

Kumquat

Member
Trump? Chaotic Neutral? Shouldn't he be Stupid Evil?

It was the closest I could come up with on the D&D scale. The dude is an opportunistic buffoon who sways with whoever can line his pockets. That's why I said Chaotic Neutral.

I appreciate the reasoned comments and keep in mind I am taking a devil's advocate position to stimulate a conversation. This does not match my beliefs 100%.

I would much prefer a do both stance but my point stands that impeachment can have a blowback that could be more harmful. Is it worth it to impeach Trump if that blow back does happen?
 
Pretty much. He may or may not be impeached, but there's no way in hell a President with approval in the 30s is going to get reelected unless, by some miracle, he does a complete 180 and stops acting like a spoiled man-child .

Don't speak so soon... He could (and i'm guessing will, unless he's impeached first) start a war, which can positively impact his approval. My guess is North Korea.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
I don't understand why the founding fathers didn't make this a part of the system from the start. It's one thing for the line of succession to kick in when a president steps down for reasons that are not nefarious, but they still get to have their way even if they facilitated the rise of a person so corrupt, dangerous or incompetent that they are impeached by the majority of the house, senate and public outcry? It should have been written into the constitution that impeachment results in the person with the second most votes in the presidential primary becoming the president (another reason to have an instant runoff system in case the second person is not able to step up to the presidency for whatever reason).
That's another thing. If the President is corrupt, why should we consider their line of succession? Why stick with the current appointments at all?
 
It shouldn't be easy to get a president impeached, but I wonder at the motivation behind making it a political process instead of a legal one. Why on earth would the writers of the US constitution want the president to be basically above the law?
 

Oni Jazar

Member
As deplorable as he is I'm not terrified that Pence will start a global nuclear war.

Sometimes it's not all about party and it's actually about the safety of our nation and the world.
 

FreezeSSC

Member
If dems win the house in 2018 I dont think it'll be so bad if he stayed president, he wouldn't be able to pass anything overly terrible and he'd be so unpopular I think dems could win the senate and presidency in 2020.
 

abundant

Member
Don't speak so soon... He could (and i'm guessing will, unless he's impeached first) start a war, which can positively impact his approval. My guess is North Korea.

I too was worried about that happening, but after seeing how he has handled the London attack, I'm starting to think that Trump's so incompetent that he'd bungle that opportunity.
 

Con_Smith

Banned
This is why we can't have nice things, people get to apathetic to fight for it because the whiners saying nothing will happen cloud their judgement and make them fatigued.

Trump is a wealthy(?) White man in America. If you thought fighting him would be easy or resisting him too daunting you part of the problem.
 
I would much prefer a do both stance but my point stands that impeachment can have a blowback that could be more harmful. Is it worth it to impeach Trump if that blow back does happen?

I think most people are more interested in justice than political games.

And I doubt there would be blowback regardless. Anyone currently in Trump's administration would have a heavy anchor tied to them if he gets impeached. Playing a central role in a colossal fuck-up of an administration doesn't do any favours for your public image.
 
I don't understand why the founding fathers didn't make this a part of the system from the start. It's one thing for the line of succession to kick in when a president steps down for reasons that are not nefarious, but they still get to have their way even if they facilitated the rise of a person so corrupt, dangerous or incompetent that they are impeached by the majority of the house, senate and public outcry? It should have been written into the constitution that impeachment results in the person with the second most votes in the presidential primary becoming the president (another reason to have an instant runoff system in case the second person is not able to step up to the presidency for whatever reason).

I disagree. If impeachment put the opposition party in power, then the incentive for impeachment would be much too high. The president would be impeached any time there is a larg-ish majority of the opposition party. Obama would have been impeached by 2011. Impeachment is rare because the political risk for those seeking impeachment is largely commensurate to the reward of removing the current person from office.

If impeachment worked in that way, it wouldn't be balanced, Congress would effectively choose the president, and impeachment would be an overthrow of the executive instead of a censure of the acting president. Most presidents would have 2-year shelf lifes, as historically congress swings against the president in his/her first off-cycle election. Further, in practice, many presidential losers are largely out of politics after losing. After Romney lost in 2012, having lost basically two presidential elections in a row (2008 primary, 2012 general), he basically retired from active politics. Sure, he gave some speeches, made appearances, had some interviews, but he was out of the national political landscape. It wouldn't make sense, in 2015, if Obama were impeached by an activist Republican congress that Romney would suddenly be thrust into the White House with a 16 month term... Or, Paul Ryan would suddenly ascend from the current Speaker of the House to being Vice President, and then his seat would be vacated, and congress would be in disarray in having to choose a new Speaker. Likewise, let's say Trump is impeached in 2020, Clinton might very well be mostly retired from active politics, much like Romney has been (as Clinton likewise basically lost two elections -- 2008 in the primary and 2016). There is a pattern here. When Gore lost in 2000, he mostly bowed out of the elected political scene and focused on activism and not politics... He really was reborn as an activist for big, global and national issues, which is wholely different than how he was perceived as a Vice President. Consider also that the president is not just the executive at signing legislation, but also -- technically -- the Commander in Chief, the highest position in the US military. The affect on active military to have what could be a reverse-course in the midst of some military action, because of domestic political battles at home, would be disorienting and potentially dangerous.

The framers of the constitution knew that impeachment is ultimately a bad thing, it's not something that you should want, and it should only be undertaken when the center of impeachment is worse than the process and result of impeachment... WHich, in Trump's case, I'd argue a Trump presidency is worse than the bad result of impeachment.
 
Yes, it could be. Depending on if the republican party can shift the blame.

Worst case you're handing Pence the 2020 elections.

I'd argue that.

The big thing Trump did was present himself as an outsider without interest in the political games and all his stupid believers followed that to fervor. Pence is yet another Republican stooge, and if you oust the trumpster fire that would imply that congressional and senate republicans did their jobs, and that would infuriate the hell out of all trump supporters.
 
If you still care about United State as a functional republic and a powerful nation state you should support the Trump impreachment.

If you want a post nation state society then its a different story.

Noted that I didn't say anything about the love of the country.
 
I think the issue I have with the premise laid down in the OP is that you can't be constantly worried about spending political capital as a progressive. To push a progressive agenda, you never get to "stop"; complacency results in backsliding, as conservatives are constantly fighting to maintain the status quo.

I would certainly hope that anyone who fights tooth and nail to save healthcare, the NIH, the Paris accords, or various consumer protections now would continue to do so if Mike Pence was president.
 
I'd argue that.

The big thing Trump did was present himself as an outsider without interest in the political games and all his stupid believers followed that to fervor. Pence is yet another Republican stooge, and if you oust the trumpster fire that would imply that congressional and senate republicans did their jobs, and that would infuriate the hell out of all trump supporters.
I mean this is why he's not being impeached right now. They'd lose their base and get slaughtered in 2018 and 2020.
 
He's a terrible person who's surrounded himself with other terrible people. He's being propped up by a party with no moral compass or intellectual foundation. Nearly every crisis this administration has faced has been self inflicted. His cabinet's incompetence is exacerbated by Trump's complete lack of impulse control. Think about what will happen when they have to face a real threat that's not of their own doing.

I don't know if America can survive a full 4 year Trump term.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
The fallacy in the OP argument is largely missing the ramifications of a sitting president being forcibly removed from office and the impact it would mean to their political party and their agenda goals.

Don't presume his removal would be swept under the rug and thus Pence would get free reign to do as he wills. A wave of amnesia wouldnt just strike the nation.

The GOP will be under fire and even more harassment. Anyone that supported anything of Trump would feel the taint for their entire career. Any policies the GOP push forward will live in the shadow of the treason they survive in their term. This will be a talking point and a lesson for decades to come. Movies, books, discussion, classrooms will remind us all daily of Trumps failed presidency. Pence would be more toothless than you think.
 
Trump's Chaos extends from domestic into foreign affairs and is an international incident in waiting.

the incoherence coming from the White House and the double speak from the Oval Office versus Ambassador Haley versus Secretary of State Tillerson exposes the US to be in a position of greater weakness and instability that leaves a huge void for foreign tyrants to take advantage of this kink in the armor

Trump's chaos is dangerous
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
He is endangering the country and the world and is possibly compromised

So... No.

We can deal with pence when it's his turn
 
Trump doesn't get impeached unless Democrats win the House

New President Pence can't get anything done with Democrats running the House

Not really seeing the downside here, we have a competent right-winger acting as a lame duck president who won't embarrass us (as much) on the national stage, while Congress prevents him from acting upon his right-wing beliefs
 
We won't know how deep the rabbit hole goes until Mueller does his investigation. He might pick up Trump *and* Pence. We don't know how much illegal conduct has taken place, but knowing this administration, it could be a veritable den of corruption. I refuse to believe that Trump is the only bad apple in that bunch.
 
Lol, exactly. His judgment is clouded because of his economic views and the excitement of getting closer to them despite the pitfalls.

Which is crazy since I would think he wouldn't want a corrupt politician funneling money into his own bank accounts and taking payments from foreign powers.

They don't teach common sense in college.
 
A Trump impeachment would destroy the GOP. All of those batshit swamp draining Trump zombies will see that their Cheeto Jesus is gone while Ryan and Pence remain and lose their minds. Pence will get jack shit accomplished.
 
Anybody expecting impeachment is not playing the odds here. The thing is, if we can bludgeon people over the head with how shitty he is for 4 solid years I think we can have a very strong wave election next go around and actually get somewhere.

The hard part is just not tuning everybody out when the right time comes. I get concerned about that a lot.
 
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