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I know we all hate Trump, but is going for his impeachment so hard a bad thing?

theWB27

Member
Trump doesn't get impeached unless Democrats win the House

New President Pence can't get anything done with Democrats running the House

Not really seeing the downside here, we have a competent right-winger acting as a lame duck president who won't embarrass us (as much) on the national stage, while Congress prevents him from acting upon his right-wing beliefs

They have to keep painting every scenario as a negative to the left. As if they're the ones doing this. Posters on this board who claim to be for Dems constantly bash them at every single thing they do even though they hold no power.

This is just another one. Uh...dems have to worry about the backlash of doing the right thing in trying to get this numbnutted ass out of office.
 

kamineko

Does his best thinking in the flying car
As long as Pence can pull the trigger on the "defeat ISIS in 30 days" plan, we're good

/s

Pence is awful and backward, but he wouldn't tweet embarrassing shit to the world every night.
 
I disagree. If impeachment put the opposition party in power, then the incentive for impeachment would be much too high. The president would be impeached any time there is a larg-ish majority of the opposition party. Obama would have been impeached by 2011. Impeachment is rare because the political risk for those seeking impeachment is largely commensurate to the reward of removing the current person from office.

If impeachment worked in that way, it wouldn't be balanced, Congress would effectively choose the president, and impeachment would be an overthrow of the executive instead of a censure of the acting president. Most presidents would have 2-year shelf lifes, as historically congress swings against the president in his/her first off-cycle election. Further, in practice, many presidential losers are largely out of politics after losing. After Romney lost in 2012, having lost basically two presidential elections in a row (2008 primary, 2012 general), he basically retired from active politics. Sure, he gave some speeches, made appearances, had some interviews, but he was out of the national political landscape. It wouldn't make sense, in 2015, if Obama were impeached by an activist Republican congress that Romney would suddenly be thrust into the White House with a 16 month term... Or, Paul Ryan would suddenly ascend from the current Speaker of the House to being Vice President, and then his seat would be vacated, and congress would be in disarray in having to choose a new Speaker. Likewise, let's say Trump is impeached in 2020, Clinton might very well be mostly retired from active politics, much like Romney has been (as Clinton likewise basically lost two elections -- 2008 in the primary and 2016). There is a pattern here. When Gore lost in 2000, he mostly bowed out of the elected political scene and focused on activism and not politics... He really was reborn as an activist for big, global and national issues, which is wholely different than how he was perceived as a Vice President. Consider also that the president is not just the executive at signing legislation, but also -- technically -- the Commander in Chief, the highest position in the US military. The affect on active military to have what could be a reverse-course in the midst of some military action, because of domestic political battles at home, would be disorienting and potentially dangerous.

The framers of the constitution knew that impeachment is ultimately a bad thing, it's not something that you should want, and it should only be undertaken when the center of impeachment is worse than the process and result of impeachment... WHich, in Trump's case, I'd argue a Trump presidency is worse than the bad result of impeachment.
This is a lot to take in and you do make some valid points, but I think you completely glossed over how insane an impeachment process could be when it is attempted on a president that has committed no criminal wrongdoings, abused their power or sunk to sub 30% popularity levels (or Bush's toxic mid twenties). I can't see how Obama would have been removed legally just because Republicans wanted it. Impeachment without a legal basis would be pretty insane, man.
That's another thing. If the President is corrupt, why should we consider their line of succession? Why stick with the current appointments at all?
I could even accept the appointments so long as they're vetted to hell and back in the case of Trump (who is so compromised it isn't even funny). I just think keeping the line of succession for obvious crooks (Nixon) and incompetents that may even be unwitting foreign agents (Trump) should be the very definition of insanity if you ask me.
 
This is a lot to take in and you do make some valid points, but I think you completely glossed over how insane an impeachment process could be when it is attempted on a president that has committed no criminal wrongdoings, abused their power or sunk to sub 30% popularity levels (or Bush's toxic mid twenties). I can't see how Obama would have been removed legally just because Republicans wanted it. Impeachment without a legal basis would be pretty insane, man.

Agreed, but I think if the incentive were greater because the reward was greater, impeachment would be more normalized, and a president would risk giving public testimony about something that could eventually easily be used against him. As it is now, the incentive is not great enough to really go after it in most cases.

But that being said, consider that the House successfully impeached Bill Clinton, and just what led to his impeachment. Many popularly remember that Clinton was impeached because of obstruction of justice related to Monica Lewinsky, but Clinton's impeachment affair started not because of the sex scandal, but because of an independent counsel appointed to investigate the Whitewater Affair in 1994. Ken Starr was the special prosecutor for the Lewinsky scandal because the Lewinsky incident only because he was the prosecutor for Whitewater, a corrupt land-deal that the Clinton's were involved in in the 1980s (when Lewinsky would have been like in middle school). The Starr Report, critical to Clinton's impeachment, was started as part of the Whitewater investigation. I think when you increase the motivation for impeachment, it makes it a lot easier to put the president into a situation where he can be impeached, especially for something like obstruction of justice or abuse of power, two of the things Clinton was impeached on.

(and I think today any clear eyed person would look back on Clintons impeachment and think it was ridiculous)
 
No.

Any other president, just because he hasn't divested his business interests, would have been impeached, or at the minimum, lost all credibility the day they took office.

Everything else has just been treasonous, obstructionist, racist icing.
 
It's pretty clear he's in favor of conversion therapy, whether that implies electric shocks or not (and considering his history I'm not sure why I should give him the benefit of the doubt).
Actually he denied through his spokesman that he supported or supports conversion therapy.

The alternate claim is that the line from his 17 year old website (which is the only source for the shock therapy memes) was promoting abstinence only education.

http://www.politifact.com/californi...-support-conversion-therapy-not-settled-matt/
 

pantsmith

Member
I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but if I did...

I'd imagine the people in charge (Illuminati / Bildebergs / Lizardmen / etc) acknowledge that Trump's support is emotional, and instead of trying to win the hearts and minds of the people are instead making his experience as painful as possible while the public cools off.

The more he is isolated, and the more the public cools off, and the more bored he gets, the longer he is subjected to never-ending bad press (most of which he brings on himself) the worse all of this will get for him. I imagine his term (though I'm wholly prepared for 8 years) will end in him being reclusive, frustrated and more than a little senile, while Pence does his job for him (like Cheaney was for Bush).

I can only hope that the Trump goes out the hack he is and not a martyr, and the Trump name is forever the butt of all of our jokes.
 
The sooner this deranged and dangerous manbaby is out of control of the world's most powerful military and nuclear arsenal the better. For the safety and prosperity of people around the globe he must be removed from office.
 
In D&D terms, Trump alternates between: Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Stupid, Stupid Evil and just plain Stupid.

A person like that has no business in government, impeach the fucker as soon as possible if you want the US to get back a grain of respect on the world stage.
 

Beardz

Member
I'll preface this thread with the fact I have a Masters and am working on my PhD in Political Science and that I am also an evil Jewish Libertarian. Socially liberal and fiscally moderate.

This part sounds like the now classic "I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert)".
 

D6AMIA6N

Member
Imagine being from NY and seeing his stupid face for the majority of your nearly 39 years of life, to then realize in horror (terror?) that he was now elected POTUS!! I will never be able to understand how anyone could have voted for this imbecile.

To answer the OP, no it is not a bad thing to think there is still some sense left in this country and to pray for impeachment.
 
I'll preface this thread with the fact I have a Masters and am working on my PhD in Political Science and that I am also an evil Jewish Libertarian. Socially liberal and fiscally moderate.

Anyways, we can all agree among ourselves that Trump is terrible and that he is a puppet. His Presidency is a disaster so far. Etc etc. I know short term thinking suggests impeaching him is good because we all hate him. I argue that while we hate him the best chance to wrest the Presidency from his and Republican hands is to let him finish his four years of glory and oust him in the next election.

Let's look at some very brief facts because I don't want to type the long version. Basically even if you oust Trump the executive is still in Republican hands, and it will be in the hands of Pence. That's the same Pence who thinks electroshock therapy is a great tool to use on gay people to make them straight. Yes Trump is vain, has no filter, and is a bully, but Pence is quiet and competent evil. If you want to put this in D&D alignment terms Pence would be Lawful Evil and Trump would be Chaotic Neutral. He's a puppet for Pence and his cronies. A puppet that a lot of people are really beginning to hate.

So if he is ousted we will get Pence and the Democratic party will have expended any little bit of political capitol they have on getting rid of him. This same level of hate and ire does not exist for Pence. I would say people may even want to give Pence a chance for a term or two because Trump was ousted, etc.

Instead of working so hard to impeach Trump instead you make sure you have a quality candidate for the next election and lay the ground work to make sure he is a one and done President. He has given you plenty of ammunition to do it and if you oust Trump it's still the same government that is in place right now passing the same things and targeting the same people. The people that come after Trump will appear like reasoned adults and that will earn them good will. We do not want that good will spent on someone like Pence.

Would be interested to hear what others think. Also, keep in mind this is a devil's advocate position to stimulate conversation. No need to hurl insults at me because I am mentioning there could be a blowback scenario for ousting Trump jackals.

I keep on seeing this thought that pence would be worse than trump.

It's a legit chance that Trump will doom us before the next election cycle.

So no, Trump has to go
 
The reality is he's not getting kicked out. If he were forcibly removed, I have zero doubt that he'd succumb to one final tantrum and launch our entire nuclear arsenal.

Just sit back 'til 2020. Stock up on the Twinkies too if you must.
 

zethren

Banned
No.

Impeach trump, you get pence. Pence has the charisma of soggy white bread, and would never win reelection.

Pence vs a competent democratic candidate is a dream.
 
bc8fx.jpg

Even Adam would agree
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
He has no place in office. In fact none of the Republicans do, but Trump himself is an embarrassment to whatever dignity the White House supposedly represents.
 
I think there are two truths here:

There are no good outcomes until after the 2020 election

but also:

A wounded, lame duck President Pence or Ryan is less bad than President Trump
 
For societies to work we need to have confidence in our institutions. This is because our institutions are how we see broad ideals like justice or liberty realized in practice, because otherwise we'd each have a unique idea of what 'justice' or 'liberty' mean to our society. Basically, institutions mediate and create standards for those ideals which can then stand for themselves. So for American democracy itself to not be critically ill or injured, Trump and co. have to be punished for their crimes. The institution of democracy has to show itself to still be capable of functioning how it is supposed to, for the very idea of American democracy in the abstract to still mean anything.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
The reality is he's not getting kicked out. If he were forcibly removed, I have zero doubt that he'd succumb to one final tantrum and launch our entire nuclear arsenal.

Just sit back 'til 2020. Stock up on the Twinkies too if you must.


You have zero doubt? I mean, you could give him a three step instruction guide and he still wouldn't be able to do it at a purely technical level.

Trump survives on the razor's edge of a cynical calculation that he may enable a bunch of bullshit coprorate legislation. As we get closer to the 2018 campaigns, assuming he's still the dumbest person ever to hold office, you will see the rats flee his sinking ship.

There is no meaningful Trump support left beyond his tiny base and the convenience both houses of congress currently affords. Thankfully they are too stupid and venal to agree on anything right now.

Trump will be the barnacle encrusted anchor we see the GOP cling to right now, but watch them try to disentangle themselves from it in the coming months.


Also - OP: What is a "fiscally moderate Libertarian" beyond a fabulist with no sense of irony?
 
No. If anything, impeachment happening and the next President not just pardoning him is almost necessary for a lot of people to have faith in our government again.

Why exactly is "faith in our government" inherently a good thing? Maybe the institutions through which an outcome like this is possible don't actually deserve faith.
 

Ithil

Member
Look up how well Gerald Ford did after taking over for Nixon, who resigned rather than be impeached. 2020 would be a bloodbath for the GOP.
 

Toxi

Banned
I'm sorry, "Chaotic Neutral"? Did you not pay attention to anything Trump has done since he became President?

It's the same "Cheney was the one responsible for everything bad Bush did" nonsense.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
If we impeach trump(over what i'm not exactly sure yet, if his turkey and saudi arabia collusion deals are not enough), Pence becomes President and he's not anywhere near as easy a target as Trump's rookie mistakes are. No it would not be a good thing.

If you remember the Mike Pence Vs Tim Kane debate, Pence destroyed Tim Kane because Pence unfortunately was smart enough to use many actual valid criticisms against Clinton and the Democrats to deflate their standing and was able to easily dodge and deflect criticisms with lying many times so smoothly, as opposed to nonsense like Trump does a lot of the time which nobody takes seriously.
 

idlewild_

Member
I think it would be faster and easier to roll back some of the things Pence implements than to repair our reputation after 4-8 years of Trump.
 
If Trump is found to have colluded with Russia or obstructed justice the damage will be not just be to him, but the whole GOP.

Pence might be an enemy of the LGBT community, but he would be damaged goods politically. He'd never get anything done and he'd be toast in the next election.
 

Toxi

Banned
If we impeach trump(over what i'm not exactly sure yet, if his turkey and saudi arabia collusion deals are not enough), Pence becomes President and he's not as easy a target as Trump's rookie mistakes are. No it would not be a good thing.
If Trump is impeached and removed from office, there would be zero fucking support for Pence. He would be a lame duck who would have no chance of a second term.
 
The reality is he's not getting kicked out. If he were forcibly removed, I have zero doubt that he'd succumb to one final tantrum and launch our entire nuclear arsenal.

Just sit back 'til 2020. Stock up on the Twinkies too if you must.

"The button" is a myth. He has the ability to order a nuclear strike, but it's not fully auotmated, there are still innumerable complicated processes that have to be carried out to actually fire the missiles, most of which are carried out by intermediaries with personal agency and (hopefully) basic logical judgment.

If he tried to fire the arsenal as a petulant tantrum for being removed from office there would be no fire and doom, he would only succeed in labeling himself as the worst enemy of mankind ever to walk the Earth and have basically everyone in the world shouting for his messy execution.
 

Ithil

Member
People seem to think there is no other consequence to him being removed than just "he's gone now". The removal of your party's sitting president in disgrace would destroy the voters' confidence in your entire party and lead to disaster in all elections for years.

Given the GOP's precarious position relying on heavy gerrymandering, voter suppression and propaganda to succeed, having them knocked out of power would likely mean the end of the entire party in their current form (which is on life support as it is given their refusal to change with a changing America and instead rely on cheating and tricks).
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
If Trump is impeached and removed from office, there would be zero fucking support for Pence. He would be a lame duck who would have no chance of a second term.

That remains to be seen considering that for the media and many dems, a lot of the criticisms centers on Trump himself and not being extrapolated to the GOP at large

So people try and take the GOP's head off with Trump, and Pence is the one who is able to ram through disastrous tax cuts and health care proposals with the GOP majority because he's not as uncompromising as Trump is for many issues on the broader goals of the GOP, and the GOP congress like him as an establishment figure a lot better than they do Trump.
 

Toxi

Banned
Like I'm not sure how Pence would be worse than Trump. Trump is just doing the standard far right conservative routine with an extra dash of fucking insanity. At least Pence doesn't have that insanity part.
 

ArjanN

Member
Pence is too boring to get elected, and Trump getting impeached would take down the GOP in flames with him anyway.

Like I'm not sure how Pence would be worse than Trump. Trump is just doing the standard far right conservative routine with an extra dash of fucking insanity. At least Pence doesn't have that insanity part.

Pence is just as shitty a person as Trump, but less of a fuckup. At least Trump is too imcompetent to actually get anythng done.
 
It's not a good thing. It's not good for the health of the country at all, but it's where we are. Turning your back on his actions and normalizing them is worse. This needs to be seen to the end.
 

Toxi

Banned
That remains to be seen considering that for the media and many dems, a lot of the criticisms centers on Trump himself and not being extrapolated to the GOP at large
Trump is the face of the GOP. If he is removed from office, that destroys the image of any directly succeeding GOP President. Period.

So people try and take the GOP's head off with Trump, and Pence is the one who is able to ram through disastrous tax cuts and health care proposals with the GOP majority because he's not as uncompromising as Trump is for many issues on the broader goals of the GOP, and the GOP congress like him as an establishment figure a lot better than they do Trump.
Trump isn't uncompromising on these things at all. They haven't passed because of other Republicans in the House and Senate refusing to compromise with each other, which would not change with a Pence Presidency.
 
Why exactly is "faith in our government" inherently a good thing? Maybe the institutions through which an outcome like this is possible don't actually deserve faith.

Faith in government is generally expected to follow from merit, even if we have no bases for judgement apart from our context or those that we've been socialized with. The idea is that both accepting and rejecting an external standard issue from the same process: whether we're able to agree to the proposition or not. We're always acting relative to our context, but that doesn't mean that we can't develop a momentum towards more liberty or justice, by reacting or responding to a relative lack of it, for example. Institutions are just the third party mediator that makes sure that this process is facilitated and doesn't devolve into an interminable screaming match, but that only works so long as we have confidence in our institutions to perform that task. If we have no confidence in the institutions of democracy, then we have no confidence in the ideal of democracy, because they're functionally interdependent.

This idea does come basically the democratic or enlightenment ideals of the 19th and 20th centuries, and thus you could argue that it's too idealistic or naive. But the idea that people be autonomous individuals that can investigate whether satisfaction in their institutions is actually real, is the very principle by which social philosophies and structures (like democracy) develop themselves through time. Basically, if we're serious about knowing how things are or how they work, we'll either find the confidence we're looking for, or we won't, and even if they're valid they may only be valid for a short time. And it's important that all of those options be open to us because things do change and all thought and values are historical or built within a historical context.
 

Ithil

Member
That remains to be seen considering that for the media and many dems, a lot of the criticisms centers on Trump himself and not being extrapolated to the GOP at large

So people try and take the GOP's head off with Trump, and Pence is the one who is able to ram through disastrous tax cuts and health care proposals with the GOP majority because he's not as uncompromising as Trump is for many issues on the broader goals of the GOP, and the GOP congress like him as an establishment figure a lot better than they do Trump.

Who cares if the GOP like Pence more? It's the voters that count. What do they care about Pence? He's not Trump, the GOP base's hero, he's not elected, and he's complete establishment. He would be a lame duck that would be destroyed in 2020, just like Gerald Ford did after Nixon resigned (the shortest serving President who didn't die in office).

You are ignoring the consequences of having the president removed from office and what it would do to support for the Republican party. It's not some event in a vacuum.
 
Not a bad thing at all. But not good enough.

If it were up to me, I'd imprison the entire goddamn GOP for complicity in Trump's schemes, enflaming hate crimes, etc.
 
As long as Pence can pull the trigger on the "defeat ISIS in 30 days" plan, we're good

/s

Pence is awful and backward, but he wouldn't tweet embarrassing shit to the world every night.

I dunno man, he tweeted something about the outside of a horse being good for a mans insides or something, that shit was pretty embarrassing lol
 

Cyan

Banned
If the only metric you care about is future votes for the Democratic Party, then sure, let it ride, let him do incalculable damage to the people, the country, our global standing, hell, to the office he holds.

But for most of us, who aren't ourselves politicians, that's not the metric we're interested in. We want to mitigate harm as much as possible. To that end, even a somewhat more effective Pence would be better than Trump, because he's not going to wantonly smash things. The damage he can do is more likely to be the sort that we can repair later. He's not going to, like, nuke North Korea because Kim Jong Un said something mean about him or whatever.

More than that, there's an empirical question here: has Trump committed impeachable offenses? If the answer is yes, he should be impeached. Letting him get away with it sets a horrifying precedent for the future.

Edit:
Also worth noting, this has nothing to do with "hating" Trump, except to the extent that hating him is correlated to how absolutely unsuited he is to his office.
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
At this point the main reason I want impeachment so badly is to make a point that we won't stand for this shit. And to drink up all the salty salty Trump #MAGA supporter tears.

We can deal with Pence when the time comes. But Trump needs to know he can't always get everything he wants.
 
I would like to see more energy going towards making sure people are aware of how important voting in 2018 is, and finding a leader and vision for the future that people can get excited about that isn't just "no Trump"(of course that still has to be an important part of it). Mueller is going to do what he does and people need to be prepared that he may not find anything that can bring down Trump and he's here to stay, and if that hope of impeachment is all(not literally all) people are banking on for however long the investigation takes then I think we're going to be in trouble.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I'm of the opinion that every President should regularly be impeached or at the very least have articles drawn up for it. W.'s conviction should have been a Tenet style slam dunk. Obama would have been tougher but I believe in America doing great things.

You're a polisci PhD candidate, why are you describing the POTUS in terms of DnD alignment
I've seen worse.

In award winning published papers.
 
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