benjipwns
Banned
Great, now all our enemies know this decades old fact. Thanks Imperfected.
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I know we all hate Trump, but is going for his impeachment so hard a bad thing?
- Thread starter Kumquat
- Start date
My misgivings are less about Trump himself (I'll shed no tears for him if he's impeached, booted or resigns) than a concern about the liberal resistance focusing so heavily on Trump himself that it gives tacit endorsement to more "respectable" Republicans who want by and large to advance the same agenda.
King Tubby
Member
Donald Trump is a complete moron who weakens the US every day in office and is a huge risk for dragging us into idiotic wars and further damaging our alliances. Get him out.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
I see where OP is coming from and have mixed feelings. The whole mainstream Republican Party is toxic and Trump has been able to turn people off. Trump is the monster you know to lock your doors from. Pence and Paul Ryan will smooth talk their way into your house, have a cordial and polite dinner with you. And then you wake up the next day to find all your pets beheaded.
TestOfTide
Banned
This notion that Trump getting kicked out of office wouldn't be a win just because Pence would be there is understandable until you actually think about what would happen to Trump's fanbase once their God is defeated.
Trump won because he successfully energized his fanbase into voting in unprecedented numbers, but the hilarious part is that his fanbase has become a TRUMP fanbase at its core. Not a Pence fanbase. Not a Paul Ryan fanbase. In some ways not even a GOP fanbase, because if the GOP tried to turn on Trump this fanbase would likely turn on the GOP. This is a TRUMP fanbase. And without Trump, they are very VERY lost.
Pence would be Trump's Gerald Ford, except Ford was at least somewhat likable before pardoning Nixon. Pence wasn't even that popular in Indiana. In fact I would go so far as to say that Trump's wins are proof that being a goody two-shoes-religious-type isn't actually that appealing. Pence stumbles even worse than Trump when the question has anything to do with gay rights or abortion.
But back to my main point, Pence ending up the successor would still be a win because Pence doesn't get Trump's fanbase all fired up vote the way Trump did and we know, based on the fact that Trump's fanbase likes Trump pulling out of the Paris Agreement LITERALLY just because it pisses off liberals, that Trump getting kicked out of office would depress Trump's fanbase and Pence wouldn't be enough to cheer them up.
And with how US politics has become, the GOP is pretty much dead without Trump's fanbase.
Trump won because he successfully energized his fanbase into voting in unprecedented numbers, but the hilarious part is that his fanbase has become a TRUMP fanbase at its core. Not a Pence fanbase. Not a Paul Ryan fanbase. In some ways not even a GOP fanbase, because if the GOP tried to turn on Trump this fanbase would likely turn on the GOP. This is a TRUMP fanbase. And without Trump, they are very VERY lost.
Pence would be Trump's Gerald Ford, except Ford was at least somewhat likable before pardoning Nixon. Pence wasn't even that popular in Indiana. In fact I would go so far as to say that Trump's wins are proof that being a goody two-shoes-religious-type isn't actually that appealing. Pence stumbles even worse than Trump when the question has anything to do with gay rights or abortion.
But back to my main point, Pence ending up the successor would still be a win because Pence doesn't get Trump's fanbase all fired up vote the way Trump did and we know, based on the fact that Trump's fanbase likes Trump pulling out of the Paris Agreement LITERALLY just because it pisses off liberals, that Trump getting kicked out of office would depress Trump's fanbase and Pence wouldn't be enough to cheer them up.
And with how US politics has become, the GOP is pretty much dead without Trump's fanbase.
spazchicken
Member
Impeachment should be the least of his worries at this point.
That's fair, but then it seems odd that you would mention your PhD candidacy at all if not to provide some sort of analysis that only that type of expertise could provide. Whatever, off topic.
Sorry, should've been more clear. I was specifically referencing your statement that impeachment is unlikely or impossible.
Sadly, I'm not entirely convinced of this. If by the "we" of "that's not the metric we're interested in," you mean NeoGAF specifically, then I agree with you -- most people on this forum probably have a genuine concern for the well being of this country that transcends mere political considerations. But I think partisanship today is such that even ordinary folks whose party is out of government generally prefer a dysfunctional government led by the opposite party over a functional one. Not only can it mean future votes, it's also a phenomenal indicator of moral righteousness: "See, the Reps/Dems can't do anything right!" If the party you revile can't even govern effectively when it's in power, then all the more reason for you to hate it, and be even more convinced of the moral correctness of your own party. I seem to recall there is possibly some preliminary research on this, but I can't even come close to finding it so feel free to call BS on that one.
Actually, data from the election shows Republicans didn't mobilize in much greater numbers than they did for the previous election. The key was actually a dismal turn out for Democrats in key states. AKA nobody was motivated by Hillary and the negative campaigning further repressed voter turn out. Repressed voter turn out typically favors the GOP over the Democrats.
Even we in the ivory tower are not immune to the humble brag. To be fair though my expertise is actually in International Relations with a minor in law and my specialization is International Drug Policy. I can speak much more authoritatively on those subjects than I can domestic politics.
TestOfTide
Banned
I understand that high turnout usually favors democrats and the demographics that favored Hillary had low turnout, but 2016 wasn't overall a low turnout election. Turnout was at 54.7%, which is actually right around 2012's turnout of 54.9%, but the difference is WHO turned out.
It's very obvious that Trump's fanbase were really energized to vote last year while liberals and progressives were not as energized to vote.
Fair enough, and I didn't mean to give you a hard time. Two years into a polisci bachelor's myself (emphasis American Government) so doubtless you know far more than me.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Look at the damage done in almost half a year
So, not really. needs to be out of power asap
So, not really. needs to be out of power asap
benjipwns
Banned
Well, you're not in polisci at all! Hey everybody this guy's really in IR!
And that guy over there's really an MPA! Look at these phonies!
What are you planning to do with your degree? Pre-law?
As of right now, that is indeed the plan.
Hillary actually had great turnout but it was in areas like NY and California where the Dems were going to win anyways. Keep in mind I'm doing this off the top of my head but if I recall right the democratic voter turn out in the battleground states is what sunk her. That's why she did so well in the overall vote totals but lost the electoral college so horribly.
And a key part of this is that so many of those key battleground states that Hillary lost coincide very nicely with the same types of disaffected voters who ended up voting for Trump.
TestOfTide
Banned
Except you can see what I am talking about in the vote totals. Hillary only got around the same number of total votes as Obama, which is not good considering we still have a growing population. Meanwhile Trump very much outperformed Romney's total votes.
I'll preface this by telling you up front that I stopped reading the OP half way through.
Your premise is absurd.
What are you even asking for exactly. Any investigations that happen were brought on by Trump.
Full stop.
Your brief rundown of the facts ignores an absolute fuck ton of dangerous shit his presidency is attempting and you're asking us to ignore it and roll the dice again in four years.
What makes it okay to care about it later but not now?
This is ridiculous. As libertarians tend to be.
Your premise is absurd.
What are you even asking for exactly. Any investigations that happen were brought on by Trump.
Full stop.
Your brief rundown of the facts ignores an absolute fuck ton of dangerous shit his presidency is attempting and you're asking us to ignore it and roll the dice again in four years.
What makes it okay to care about it later but not now?
This is ridiculous. As libertarians tend to be.
MonkeyKing
Member
I will take the rational person that I profoundly disagree with, over the insane lunatic, every day. Trump has to go.
Perhaps if you read the entire thing you would see it is a devil's advocate position.
I'd agree with that, Pence seems like a better fit but:
And I know Trump is causing damage at an alarming rate too but yep, you don't want someone that swayed by religion, without modern sensibilities, to mess things up, worldwide too.
Unless Trump becomes more dangerous than entertaining (imminent/permanent and significant danger) then maybe it's better to ride it out.
You'll join the Paris agreement with the next guy, straddlers will rejoin. At least he isn't going to go to war with Russia, but then there's China.
Screwing up healthcare probably qualifies, but would Mike Pence go back to Obamacare? Nope.
Grab some popcorn.
And I know Trump is causing damage at an alarming rate too but yep, you don't want someone that swayed by religion, without modern sensibilities, to mess things up, worldwide too.
Unless Trump becomes more dangerous than entertaining (imminent/permanent and significant danger) then maybe it's better to ride it out.
You'll join the Paris agreement with the next guy, straddlers will rejoin. At least he isn't going to go to war with Russia, but then there's China.
Screwing up healthcare probably qualifies, but would Mike Pence go back to Obamacare? Nope.
Grab some popcorn.
Dude Abides
Banned
I think some of you are seriously overestimating Pence. He was an inconsequential congressman, barely won his first governor's election, and was in danger of losing his second.
Robot Pants
Member
Phoenix RISING
Banned
And this is why I agree with the OP. Why impeach someone so incompetent, they are incapable of doing any real damage?
benjipwns
Banned
Doesn't make the premise any less half baked.
Trump and his subordinates are the cause of the investigations and hearings that may lead to his impeachment. It has nothing to do with opposition or their pursuits. In order for your premise to work we have to tell our intelligence organizations to stop their independent investigations, suspend our laws, and halt all proceedings regarding the matters that may lead to his impeachment.
Just so we can try again in the next election.
Thatonemoor
Member
You know I'm wondering how long could the impeachment trial take anyway? It's never happened before. Would Congress even be the same congress by the time its over?
I'm honestly far more concerned and bashing my head against a wall over the complacency of a large chunk of Americans in the face of such blatant fuckery going on right in front of their faces. No impeachment can fix the massive problem going on right now with people and the extremism of people identifying with their political parties. The fact they are interviewing people on nightly news and they are asking the question "what do you think of the russian ties to Trump" and they just shrug their shoulders. And the next person literally says she doesn't think Trump is a liar, despite mountains and mountains of video, audio and tweets contradicting that thought time and time again. I want to see Trump get some kind of punishment for what he has done, but even impeaching him won't fix the real problem of what the fuck is wrong with these people. They are still going to keep on voting.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Pence would be way, way better. While obviously not great for left leaning people he is at least capable and is intrinsically tied to proper political processes and I would imagine much more concerned about his image when making decisions so wouldn't be doing the extremes that Trump is like building walls.
I agree you risk a double termer. But is that really worse than 4 more years of Trump?
The major risk I see though is he goes under the radar and so would his policies. He wouldn't get the levels of vitriol and opposition that Trump does
I agree you risk a double termer. But is that really worse than 4 more years of Trump?
The major risk I see though is he goes under the radar and so would his policies. He wouldn't get the levels of vitriol and opposition that Trump does
benjipwns
Banned
Thatonemoor
Member
IGNORE ME! Got my facts mixed up lol my bad.
Astral Dog
Member
We have Trump for the next year we need to cope with this with in healthy ways
My only concern about impeaching Trump would be the House going forward with it before there's enough support in the Senate for him to actually be stripped of the Presidency.
Anything short of that and all the focus on it will seem illegitimate. You come at the king, you'd best not miss.
But absolutely, Pence would be better than Trump. I hate all his policies, but at least he has basic competence.
Anything short of that and all the focus on it will seem illegitimate. You come at the king, you'd best not miss.
But absolutely, Pence would be better than Trump. I hate all his policies, but at least he has basic competence.
fastford58
Member
You guys and gals are in for a long four years.
Adam_Vania
Banned
its all very funny when you look at Bill Clinton's scandals. it was the same kind of stuff, shady real estate deals, people accused him of selling out to China, of selling graves in Arlington, he had the Paula Jones sex scandal (he was guilty he just dragged it out for years using his position of authority to squash it). in the end they impeached him and he still served out his 2nd term as President.
the bad thing is how big a hard on the media has for demonizing Russia. this is giving me Iraq War flashbacks, when the media including the NY Times worked hand-in-hand with the intelligence community to push us into an unjust war that has fucked the world over and continues to fuck it over. during that era we had papers like WaPo outing CIA agents on the front page for political reasons. the more things change the more they stay the same.
nothing will change. nothing will happen except the media and politicians will make their money while things will get shittier for everyone else.
the bad thing is how big a hard on the media has for demonizing Russia. this is giving me Iraq War flashbacks, when the media including the NY Times worked hand-in-hand with the intelligence community to push us into an unjust war that has fucked the world over and continues to fuck it over. during that era we had papers like WaPo outing CIA agents on the front page for political reasons. the more things change the more they stay the same.
nothing will change. nothing will happen except the media and politicians will make their money while things will get shittier for everyone else.