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I was on stage at Javits Center the night Hillary lost

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Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
I don't know why any of you can consider OP's insights about the whole matter in such a significant way when he has in frank manner said this:

I talked personally to people at the level directly below Podesta and Huma, those are the only reports that I need to hear honestly.

He got his information directly from the persons involved and limit himself to only that while refusing to look at all the information not coming from them. That's just narrow-sighted and makes his opinion so filled with bias you can even fill a whole building with it.
 

Nekofrog

Banned
Have you ever considered that the vitriol came from the fact that your side said Hillary was a corrupt Wall Street bought sleazebag? That she was attacking Bernie rather dirty, even though she never brought up the Sandinista rallies, or Sierra Blanca? That stuff pays forward.

I'm terrified that your side is going to piss off minorities by taking them for granted to go chase after WWC.

That's all the Far Left harps on. Your rhetoric is just as dangerous.

Instead of uniting, continue the primary fight.

Sir, you're assuming a lot about me and whatever side you think I'm on. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Never once have I advocated for pandering to "wwc". Never once have I advocated for lessening focus on minority and LGBTQ rights. I believe in all of those things as a primary and central focus of the democratic platform. My fucking heart weeps for all of the minorities and LGBTQ people that I know personally and have known personally for three decades. These are people that I love and care for as human beings. My wife was reduced to tears as the result rolled in, and internally I was inconsolable at the thought of the hell they face.

My post was addressing the people within the Clinton camp who refused to see the problems that were plainly obvious to see by all; the upper class celebrity pandering, fund raising and campaigning in already locked solid blue democrat areas of the nation when there was literally no need to do it, and it was at the expense of people who for whatever reason (and however wrong they were for it) needed convincing that all of hillarys image problems going into the election were of no consequence to the presidency of the United States.

This isn't about sides, this is about critical analyses of what went wrong without any kind of emotional attachment or investment into the candidate herself.
 

Phased

Member
FBI killed her as a candidare over nothing and I cant believe nobody is running this message (aside of hillary herself). This is outrageous and a very dangerous precedent. Next time we will see the FBI arresting the democratic candidate (woops was just a mistake) and nobody will care

I don't think the FBI thing made 6 million Democrat voters stay home. The candidate herself did.

Honestly I don't think the emails played much of a role, the likely culprit was the DNC drama which made the Primary seem more like a coronation than a real contest. If I was a Sanders supporter and all that shit came out (debate question leaking, etc) I may have said 'fuck it' as well.
 
I don't know why any of you can consider OP's insights about the whole matter in such a significant way when he has in frank manner said this:



He got his information directly from the persons involved and limit himself to only that while refusing to look at all the information not coming from them. That's just narrow-sighted and makes his opinion so filled with bias you can even fill a whole building with it.
You're looking to shit on an insider's view and there isn't a reason. I think we all should consider all information we've been given equally. And most here are being reasonable in the credence they give OP.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
You're looking to shit on an insider's view and there isn't a reason. I think we all should consider all information we've been given equally. And most here are being reasonable in the credence they give OP.

Insider view is ok.

Insider view from someone who has explicitly stated that he only listen and agrees to what he's being told to by the persons involved while disavowing everything else? Not really.
 
That Obama 2012/Hillary 2016 schedule comparison in the thread yesterday was all I needed to see. Frankly, she deserved to lose after seeing that. It's really unfortunate that the consequence of that was a Trump presidency, though.
 
Insider view is ok.

Insider view from someone who has explicitly stated that he only listen and agrees to what he's being told to by the persons involved while disavowing everything else? Not really.
A level directly below Podesta is a pretty good vantage point imo. He is part of a campaign so of course he wont fight them. From what he has shared, it looks like they tried to do all the right things. If he were a low level grunt his views wont be of much discussion. It's great of OP to share whats going on.
 
I think the death knell for Hillary was honestly the collapse at the 9/11 thing. The way they propped her up against the post and dragged her into the van with her feet scraping the ground. The whole attempt to cover it up instead of trying to treat or help her. I thought back then it was probably over for her.
 
As much as we all believed she was going to win, they REALLY believed it.
And so did everyone on the other side! The GAF Monday morning quarterbacks can claim they knew it was a certain loss, but it surprised damn near everybody intimately involved in politics.
 
That Obama 2012/Hillary 2016 schedule comparison in the thread yesterday was all I needed to see. Frankly, she deserved to lose after seeing that. It's really unfortunate that the consequence from that was a Trump presidency, though.

Yup. It was obvious to anyone with two eyes and a functioning compass that Hillary was out on the lam during some critical time periods. Still, though. There was bitching in Poli-gaf and Where in the World is Hillary during the month of August/early September songs being hummmed, but seeing a direct comparison really hit home. Like good god.
 
Didn't they cancel the fireworks early in the day? Was that because of some sort of backlash they were getting or did they start expecting the worst earlier than reported?
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
A level directly below Podesta is a pretty good vantage point imo. He is part of a campaign so of course he wont fight them. From what he has shared, it looks like they tried to do all the right things. If he were a low level grunt his views wont be of much discussion. It's great of OP to share whats going on.

Well I suppose it's valuable insofar that it possibly informs us the kind of attitude being held by their team members.
 
This campaign was 100% driven by charisma. Trump was probably as charismatic as Obama (for all the wrong reasons) to some people in this country, and despite her record Hillary really lacked in that department, as perhaps one of the most uncharismatic major party candidate in our recent memory.
TL;DR: I think Hillary, no matter how much she tried, before she knew it, was already dead in the G.E.
To beat Trump in 2020 we are gonna need a charismatic, progressive candidate to galvanize the democratic base.
 
That Obama 2012/Hillary 2016 schedule comparison in the thread yesterday was all I needed to see. Frankly, she deserved to lose after seeing that. It's really unfortunate that the consequence of that was a Trump presidency, though.

I think it's pretty obvious she had health problems.
 

prag16

Banned
No offense to the TC, but this sounds like mostly bullshit.

It sounds like you were too close to the campaign (even calling yourself a sycophant; not sure if you used the word quite correctly regardless) to have an objective/measured view of what transpired, and were likely missing the forest for the trees, and also doing some hindsight/rationalizing.

Your narrative clashes violently with most reports inside/outside the campaign, and isn't even internally consistent (e.g. scared of Trump, but didn't even compete in many crucial states... thought it was 50/50, but then shocked SHOCKED to lose, so much so that Hillary shuttered herself in, sending Podesta out to mop up).

I also chuckled at some of the praise lavished upon Hillary. Not acting entitled? Coulda fooled me.

The whole thing reads like a litany of excuses and blame deflection from someone who clearly has Hillary on a very VERY high pedestal. It's insane that the Democrats blew this. I'd imagine many of them have spent the past week staring into a mirror.
 

NimbusD

Member
And so did everyone on the other side! The GAF Monday morning quarterbacks can claim they knew it was a certain loss, but it surprised damn near everybody intimately involved in politics.

Yeah I know. Not saying that's not the case. Saying that IS the case and the Javits Center was the ground zero of that belief.
 
Exactly...Hilary Clinton has fucking damaged the Democratic party and she and her ardent supporters need to fucking own up to it. No more of this bullshit excuse that Hilary lost because of Bernie or because of Comey or because of any other useless excuse that can be given. The bottom line is Hilary lost because she was a horrible candidate.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Hillary was a great candidate.. in the wrong election.

This was a wave of angry people voting - no one saw it or the Trump wave coming. They just wanted to fuck shit up.

The FBI thing tarnished Hillary but as a candidate her resume was impeccable and her ideas were sound.

They simply underestimated Trump in WI and PA especially.
 

Phased

Member
What on Earth are you talking about?

Hillary was a great candidate.. in the wrong election.

This was a wave of angry people voting - no one saw it or the Trump wave coming. They just wanted to fuck shit up.

The FBI thing tarnished Hillary but as a candidate her resume was impeccable and her ideas were sound.

They simply underestimated Trump in WI and PA especially.

It wasn't a wave of angry people voting. Both Trump and Clinton received less votes than their counterparts in '12. The difference is Trumps turnout was maybe a million and change less, and Clinton's was 6 million less voters.

That's not underestimating Trump, his turnout was low. That's overestimating Clinton, her turnout was lower. Any decent candidate could have brought out a good chunk of those 6 million voters and won this thing.

Clinton had a good record on paper, except in the real world she delivers Ambien speeches and represents a dynasty people are apparently sick of enough to stay home.
 
It wasn't a wave of angry people voting. Both Trump and Clinton received less votes than their counterparts in '12. The difference is Trumps turnout was maybe a million and change less, and Clinton's was 6 million less voters.

That's not underestimating Trump, his turnout was low. That's overestimating Clinton, her turnout was lower. Any decent candidate could have brought out a good chunk of those 6 million voters and won this thing.

Clinton had a good record on paper, except in the real world she delivers Ambien speeches and represents a dynasty people are apparently sick of enough to stay home.

aren't current projections that she'll end up with close to the votes of Obama in '12?
 
Today's random historical footnote:

A young Donald Trump proposed the project which involved the construction of a new convention center in Manhattan back in the 1970's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/24/nyregion/donald-trump-nyc.html

Mr. Trump’s father, Fred C. Trump, established himself as a major developer of midrise apartment complexes for middle-class families, especially for World War II veterans, in Brooklyn, in Queens and on Staten Island.

The younger Trump came into his own in the 1970s, when he played a notable role in a number of risky projects, often against associates’ advice, such as the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center on Manhattan’s West Side and the Grand Hyatt on the East Side.

http://fusion.net/story/367914/clinton-election-party-javits-center-donald-trump/

On election night, Hillary Clinton will be delivering either be a victory or concession speech from New York’s Javits Center in west Manhattan—a building named for former Republican New York Senator Jacob V. Javits.

But back in the 1970s, that building came very close to being named after another prominent New York Republican, Donald Trump’s racist, real-estate developer father, Fred Trump.

That’s because, according to Donald Trump biographer Timothy O’Brien, the younger Trump tricked the city into agreeing to name the center after his dad. At the time, Fred Trump’s company owned an option on the property that would become the Javits Center.

As O’Brien wrote in his 2005 book, Trump Nation:

The City planned to build a convention center on the 34th Street site and needed to buy the Trumps’ option to do so. Donald sprang into action.

“Trump told us he was entitled to a $4.4 million commission on the sale according to his contract with Penn Central. But he told us he’d forgo his fee if we would name the convention center after his father—the Fred C. Trump Convention Center,” said Peter Solomon, the city official who negotiated with Donald. “After about a month of knocking the idea around, someone finally read the terms of the original Penn Central contract with Trump. He wasn’t entitled to anywhere near the money he was claiming. Based on the sales price we had negotiated, his fee was only about $500,000.

“But what really got me was his bravado. I think it was fantastic. It was unbelievable,” he added in a 1980 interview with the New York Times. “He almost got us to name the convention center after his father in return for something he never really had to give away. I guess he just thought we would never read the fine print or, by the time we did, the deal to name the building after his father would have been set.”

It's not clear if anyone in the Clinton campaign was aware that they rented out a facility that Trump actually proposed and was an advocate of getting built back in the 1970's. If not, the events that followed on November 8th, 2016 ended up being more ironic than anyone could have imagined.
 
even if she campaigned in the rust belt i feel she would have lost anyway. what did it for her was the comment that she would put a lot of coal companies out of business and the deplorables shortly after.

by the end of the week almost everyone in the area knew what she said by word of mouth. it also doesn't help that she comes across as incredibly calculative, rehearsed, unreceptive and cold.

trumped up trickle down, kind of like her polls and results lol
 
No offense to the TC, but this sounds like mostly bullshit.

It sounds like you were too close to the campaign (even calling yourself a sycophant; not sure if you used the word quite correctly regardless) to have an objective/measured view of what transpired, and were likely missing the forest for the trees, and also doing some hindsight/rationalizing.

Your narrative clashes violently with most reports inside/outside the campaign, and isn't even internally consistent (e.g. scared of Trump, but didn't even compete in many crucial states... thought it was 50/50, but then shocked SHOCKED to lose, so much so that Hillary shuttered herself in, sending Podesta out to mop up).

I also chuckled at some of the praise lavished upon Hillary. Not acting entitled? Coulda fooled me.

The whole thing reads like a litany of excuses and blame deflection from someone who clearly has Hillary on a very VERY high pedestal. It's insane that the Democrats blew this. I'd imagine many of them have spent the past week staring into a mirror.

Of course I have Hillary on a high pedestal, I like her and think that she could have been a pretty good president. I'm not shifting any blame but don't tell me that the campaign staff didn't work hard, they worked their asses off and their strategy failed. This is an op-ed by me and only me and its what I think, others can choose to draw their conclusions elsewhere. I don't think I have praised anyone other than Trump for being a great candidate and her for being someone I admire.

To address something else I definitely was a sycophant, I was sucking up to the campaign people in order to GET PAID, I was pitching projects to them with some of Bernies creatives. There is lots of money in media in the campaign business. I honestly did a grand total of 2 hours of volunteering in the downtown Manhattan office and a whole lot more of hobnobbing with people who were important and I didn't put my ass on the ground in Pennsylvania knocking on doors in order to get my candidate elected. I suck and people like me who were looking to profit instead of really trying to get her into office also suck. The Bernie bros I tried to work with fall into that category.

Anyway I'm glad that people found this interesting, I tried to put as little spin on it as an avowed Hillary supporter possibly can.

edit: I know nothing about glass ceilings and buildings shutting down at 2am. All sounds very practical to me and it makes sense why they told people to leave at 2am.
 

Monocle

Member
Eh. I used to work for a polling company. Polling well is really, really hard. The maths behind it is relatively simple - you have something called the central limit theorem, which says that as your sample size increases, the sample mean approaches the population mean; or, as the number of people polled increases, how they say they'll vote approaches how the population says they'll vote. Get a sample size of ~1,000 and you have a margin of error of 3% with 95% confidence - that is, 95% of the time, the sample mean will be within 3 points of the population mean.

But then...

The first problem is if the sample isn't actually randomly selected. Imagine, for example, you don't conduct your polls in Spanish. You can't possibly contact any Spanish voters, so you have a bias in your sample and you'll end up with the voting figures for the population absent Spanish voters, which might be significantly off the real result.

The main way this actually reflects itself for pollsters, though, isn't language. For this election, it was differential response rates. Basically, when we call and say "do you mind if we ask a few questions?", you only get the answer "yes" about 7% of the time. 93% of the time they just say "no" and put the phone down. That means we're not selecting randomly any more - we end up oversampling the sort of person willing to answer the questions and undersampling the sort of person who isn't willing to do, usually the politically interested and the politically disinterested respectively. Unfortunately, these two groups don't vote the same way.

The second problem is dishonesty. There's two sorts of this problem. The first is: will this person vote at all? If I asked 5 people how they'd vote, and 4 said Blue and 1 said Red, but in the election, only Red turned up, my poll would have said 80/20 but the result would be 0/100. And the trouble is: there's absolutely no way to find out what the honest answer is. Some pollsters try asking people how likely they are to vote: for example, are you 7/10 likely to vote? 8/10? and then they exclude all people below a certain bar. Unfortunately, this doesn't work as well as you might expect, because different groups are differently accurate about their self-assessments. A millennial who says they are 7/10 likely to vote is actually much less likely than an older person who says they are 7/10 likely to vote. So the second way you can do it is by demographics - i.e., millennials normally vote at this rate, old people at this rate. But the trouble is that this leaves you massively susceptible to 'revolutionary' candidates, who can mobilize people in previously unforeseen ways.

The second part of this second problem is dishonesty about who you vote for. For example, you might want to vote for the racist candidate, but not want to admit it. So you'll say you're undecided, or you're voting for the other candidate, even though you're not. There's... really no way to do much about this for a pollster.

The third problem is undecideds themselves. If I poll 4 Red people and 3 Blue people and 2 undecideds, everyone thinks the pollsters are saying Red will win. But if all the undecideds swing behind Blue, they'll win 5-4 - and it looks like I was wrong. And because they're undecided, you can't really make any safe assumptions about them.

And finally the fourth problem is 'shock' events - last minute things that make people change their minds in between polls and polling day.

The trouble with this US election is that almost all of these happened at once! And there's really very little you can do about them. The more similar candidates are to previous elections, the better polling works. Obama vs. Romney and Obama vs. McCain? Easy to poll; Obama is obviously the same guy, McCain and Romney similar enough the same assumptions both work. But Trump vs. Clinton? Hard as heck to poll. And despite that, pollsters didn't do too bad. The standard error was about 2.3 percentage points on the national level. That's pretty close! The trouble is that was also the difference between President Trump and President Clinton.
Interesting post, thanks.
 
Sir, you're assuming a lot about me and whatever side you think I'm on. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Never once have I advocated for pandering to "wwc". Never once have I advocated for lessening focus on minority and LGBTQ rights. I believe in all of those things as a primary and central focus of the democratic platform. My fucking heart weeps for all of the minorities and LGBTQ people that I know personally and have known personally for three decades. These are people that I love and care for as human beings. My wife was reduced to tears as the result rolled in, and internally I was inconsolable at the thought of the hell they face.

My post was addressing the people within the Clinton camp who refused to see the problems that were plainly obvious to see by all; the upper class celebrity pandering, fund raising and campaigning in already locked solid blue democrat areas of the nation when there was literally no need to do it, and it was at the expense of people who for whatever reason (and however wrong they were for it) needed convincing that all of hillarys image problems going into the election were of no consequence to the presidency of the United States.

This isn't about sides, this is about critical analyses of what went wrong without any kind of emotional attachment or investment into the candidate herself.

This isn't critical analysis when you are only savagely going after the Clinton camp.

Let's just get that straight.
 

Boney

Banned
Have you ever considered that the vitriol came from the fact that your side said Hillary was a corrupt Wall Street bought sleazebag? That she was attacking Bernie rather dirty, even though she never brought up the Sandinista rallies, or Sierra Blanca? That stuff pays forward.

I'm terrified that your side is going to piss off minorities by taking them for granted to go chase after WWC.

That's all the Far Left harps on. Your rhetoric is just as dangerous.

Instead of uniting, continue the primary fight.
I don't even know how to respond to this kind of crazy
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Thank you for posting. Calm opinions like this are always interesting, but....



I'm having trouble seeing this versus all the reports that have come out lately. I'm sorry, but a campaign worried about losing does not do the campaigning that they did (or did not do, more accurately). Something is not jiving in the two stories.
Yeah, if it wasn't hubris that caused them to not campaign in critical states then they were incredibly dumb or mismanaged instead. Doesn't seem like an improvement.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
What on Earth are you talking about?

Hillary was a great candidate.. in the wrong election.

This was a wave of angry people voting - no one saw it or the Trump wave coming. They just wanted to fuck shit up.

The FBI thing tarnished Hillary but as a candidate her resume was impeccable and her ideas were sound.

They simply underestimated Trump in WI and PA especially.

Still in denial I see...

She was objectively a horrible candidate going into the election. Second highest unfavorables in history.. only Trump beats her there.

Is part of it sexism? Sure, but she brought ton of her own baggage. Even though no charges, she was investigated and scolded by fbi for private server. The Clintons did become multi millionaires by giving speeches to wall street, she did vote for iraq, she is against weed legalization and for death penalty, the dnc did stack the deck for her, Clinton Foundation actions do reflect a COI, and more importantly, her campaign had no clear message.


This is reflected in the votes. There was no crazy Trump surge. It was just a correlated error not reflected in polling. Hillary got less votes than Romney in 2012.

Also, Plenty of people saw the anger, the anti establishment populism playing a big part in the election. Just not in many of the corporate media bubbles, or the gaf bubble.
 

Maledict

Member
Still in denial I see...

She was objectively a horrible candidate going into the election. Second highest unfavorables in history.. only Trump beats her there.

Is part of it sexism? Sure, but she brought ton of her own baggage. Even though no charges, she was investigated and scolded by fbi for private server. The Clintons did become multi millionaires by giving speeches to wall street, she did vote for iraq, she is against weed legalization and for death penalty, the dnc did stack the deck for her, Clinton Foundation actions do reflect a COI, and more importantly, her campaign had no clear message.


This is reflected in the votes. There was no crazy Trump surge. It was just a correlated error not reflected in polling. Hillary got less votes than Romney in 2012.

Also, Plenty of people saw the anger, the anti establishment populism playing a big part in the election. Just not in many of the corporate media bubbles, or the gaf bubble.

Please read the thread. It is likely HIllary will have the second highest total number of votes ever cast for a candidate when all is done and dusted, being behind only Obama in 2008.
 

TruHero

Banned
The fact that Clinton didn't have the backbone to, at bare minimum, speak to her supporters the night of the election is the most damning to me. Really speaks to the content of her character, or lack thereof.

Hillary was always a horrible candidate with questionable ethics. Nor is she all that inspiring for many people either. She acted like the presidency was her right...and for what? Her only time as a publicly elected official was as a Senator from a liberal state.

The DNC rolled out the red carpet for her in 2008 and it took someone like Obama to stop it. A guy with almost non-existent political experience, and nowhere near the name recognition. There was no real challenger for her in 2016.
 

Maledict

Member
It'll never happen.

Because it's fucking stupid!

Firstly, both sides behaved badly. Or are people forgetting the vast number of drive by 'HIllary is a corrupt bitch" posts that started the mods banning Bernie supporters in the first place?

Secondly, who exactly gets to deliver the official poligaf apology? Do we have a king or queen?

Thirdly, people have been expressing regret about how heated it goes since before the damn election. Are you after a specific apology from every person in poligaf, or a specific person, or just a giant funeral pyre?

And finally, because going over a damn primary process which finished six months ago helps us not a single bit in terms of dealing with the fact a facist lunatic is in the White House. If we are to beat that, we need all parts of the democratic coalition - no one part is big enough on its own, and saying (as some have said) that the Clinton side of the party just needs to "die off" doesn't exactly build bridges either. We can either castigate ourselves endlessly on how we had two main candidates, both of whom were losers, or we can focus on what the hell we can do for the future.

Your choice really.
 

Pixieking

Banned
The fact that Clinton didn't have the backbone to, at bare minimum, speak to her supporters the night of the election is the most damning to me. Really speaks to the content of her character, or lack thereof.

Every one of us is human.

She bet the majority of her campaign (right or wrongly) on a test of basic decency: do not vote for Trump, for he is a racist, sexually assaulting predator, who has no policy and would gladly verbally abuse his opponent ("nasty woman") than talk politics.

To be told by 64 million+ people "It doesn't matter what he's like, it doesn't matter about our daughter's futures, it doesn't matter about LGBTQ rights, or women's rights, we like him better" must be utterly soul-destroying. To put your hope in the American people and then be told you were wrong...

If you can't understand that she would have been a crying mess the night of the election, openly distraught, then you need to take a step back and understand how people work. People are complicated, and for all everyone's opinions of her and her campaign, I've seen very little empathy for someone so hurt by the American people. Her and her message's rejection is a shocking indictment of human character, regardless of the various demographics reasons for voting for Trump.

Remember, this is someone who repeatedly said "Do all the good you can, for all the people you can, in all the ways you can, for as long as you can". To be told that that's worthless...

(And, yes, I understand that people are hurt by her failure to win the election. Understanding her feelings doesn't minimise that at all.)
 
The best "apology" that can happen is everyone not going at each others throats anymore and actually discussing what needs to be done going forward. Listen to Obama and spend this next week getting whatever anger you have against others in your party over the loss you have out of your system and then focus on actual unity.

Trump's supporters are fucking giddy when they see us tearing each other down.
 

Blader

Member
I don't think the FBI thing made 6 million Democrat voters stay home. The candidate herself did.

Honestly I don't think the emails played much of a role, the likely culprit was the DNC drama which made the Primary seem more like a coronation than a real contest. If I was a Sanders supporter and all that shit came out (debate question leaking, etc) I may have said 'fuck it' as well.

You've got to be kidding me. Everything about the emails -- from the investigation to Comey's press conference to people complaining about lack of indictment to Comey's letters in the last week of the campaign -- cast an enormous shadow over the whole campaign. It drove the narrative completely. The news media spent more time on Hillary's emails than literally anything else about her; network news devoted more coverage to the emails than her all of her policy positions combined; the NY Times ran more front-page headlines on the emails than Trump's Muslim ban. Sorry but saying the emails didn't play much of a role is turning a blind eye to what was clearly THE defining issue for Hillary's entire campaign.
 
lol. oh sweet child.

The democratic party has failed to get elected into office on literally every level of government. The Republicans now have:

A super majority of state legislatures.
A super majority of governors.
The House of Representatives.
The Senate.
The Supreme Court.
The Presidency.

Yeah Obama is a once in a lifetime rock star. The guy still presided over the complete destruction of the democratic party.

It needs to be completely torn down and rebuilt. Actually it just needs to be rebuilt because you can't tear it down any more than it already is.
 
What on Earth are you talking about?

Hillary was a great candidate.. in the wrong election.

This was a wave of angry people voting - no one saw it or the Trump wave coming. They just wanted to fuck shit up.

The FBI thing tarnished Hillary but as a candidate her resume was impeccable and her ideas were sound.

They simply underestimated Trump in WI and PA especially.

This is pure delusion. If you are a great candidate you tailor your message to the current climate of the country. You know how you do that? By getting out and actually talking to people all over the country to see what matters to them.

Every one of us is human.

She bet the majority of her campaign (right or wrongly) on a test of basic decency: do not vote for Trump, for he is a racist, sexually assaulting predator, who has no policy and would gladly verbally abuse his opponent ("nasty woman") than talk politics.

To be told by 64 million+ people "It doesn't matter what he's like, it doesn't matter about our daughter's futures, it doesn't matter about LGBTQ rights, or women's rights, we like him better" must be utterly soul-destroying. To put your hope in the American people and then be told you were wrong...

If you can't understand that she would have been a crying mess the night of the election, openly distraught, then you need to take a step back and understand how people work. People are complicated, and for all everyone's opinions of her and her campaign, I've seen very little empathy for someone so hurt by the American people. Her and her message's rejection is a shocking indictment of human character, regardless of the various demographics reasons for voting for Trump.

Remember, this is someone who repeatedly said "Do all the good you can, for all the people you can, in all the ways you can, for as long as you can". To be told that that's worthless...

(And, yes, I understand that people are hurt by her failure to win the election. Understanding her feelings doesn't minimise that at all.)

Yes she is human but true leaders stand up immediately in the face of adversity not have a good cry first.
 

Pixieking

Banned
The democratic party has failed to get elected into office on literally every level of government. The Republicans now have:

A super majority of state legislatures.
A super majority of governors.
The House of Representatives.
The Senate.
The Supreme Court.
The Presidency.

Yeah Obama is a once in a lifetime rock star. The guy still presided over the complete destruction of the democratic party.

It needs to be completely torn down and rebuilt. Actually it just needs to be rebuilt because you can't tear it down any more than it already is.

*nods* Burning everything DNC-related to the ground because the party isn't left-wing enough is the wrong way to do it. Rebuilding everything from the bottom-up because "How on God's Green Earth do you ignore local and state politics for so long you dumbasses?" is the the right way to do it.
 

TruHero

Banned
Every one of us is human.

She bet the majority of her campaign (right or wrongly) on a test of basic decency: do not vote for Trump, for he is a racist, sexually assaulting predator, who has no policy and would gladly verbally abuse his opponent ("nasty woman") than talk politics.

To be told by 64 million+ people "It doesn't matter what he's like, it doesn't matter about our daughter's futures, it doesn't matter about LGBTQ rights, or women's rights, we like him better" must be utterly soul-destroying. To put your hope in the American people and then be told you were wrong...

If you can't understand that she would have been a crying mess the night of the election, openly distraught, then you need to take a step back and understand how people work. People are complicated, and for all everyone's opinions of her and her campaign, I've seen very little empathy for someone so hurt by the American people. Her and her message's rejection is a shocking indictment of human character, regardless of the various demographics reasons for voting for Trump.

Remember, this is someone who repeatedly said "Do all the good you can, for all the people you can, in all the ways you can, for as long as you can". To be told that that's worthless...

(And, yes, I understand that people are hurt by her failure to win the election. Understanding her feelings doesn't minimise that at all.)

Yes, clearly it's me not understanding how people work.

It's unfair to expect a person running for president to have the backbone to address their most loyal supporters when it's clear the campaign has lost. Not just any supporters, but the ones who are so excited for the candidate, that they joined the campaign and showed up at the official victory party.

Nah, they don't deserve even the briefest of "Thank You" message from the candidate themselves. Just get told to go home.
 

Lothar

Banned
Because all of the paths of losing they saw didn't involve Wisconsin?

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/wisconsin/

Polls showed her up by almost 10 points in Mid-October. That's the data they were dealing with.

The big fear was about the LOWER Blue Wall. Nevada, Colorado, and NH, all of which were considered wildly more in play than WI.

When Michael Moore said matter of factly months ago that Trump will win because of these reasons, michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/ then he won by exactly those reasons, when Obama says she didn't do enough, when there's reports saying that Bill Clinton was railing against the compaign for not speaking to enough voters, it's easy to see that the campaign was just arrogant and lazy and thought they could coast to victory instead of working as hard as they should have been.
 

Pixieking

Banned
Yes, clearly it's me not understanding how people work.

It's unfair to expect a person running for president to have the backbone to address their most loyal supporters when it's clear the campaign has lost. Not just any supporters, but the ones who are so excited for the candidate, that they joined the campaign and showed up at the official victory party.

Nah, they don't deserve even the briefest of "Thank You" message from the candidate themselves. Just get told to go home.

*shrugs* If you don't/can't empathise with what happened then that's on you, but not everyone feels like you do.
 

noshten

Member
*nods* Burning everything DNC-related to the ground because the party isn't left-wing enough is the wrong way to do it. Rebuilding everything from the bottom-up because "How on God's Green Earth do you ignore local and state politics for so long you dumbasses?" is the the right way to do it.

Having leadership that showed actual knowledge regarding the situation and the issues with the Clinton campaign and candidacy is the first step. Yet we have people propagating people very close to the Clinton campaign or Clinton surrogates as people to take over the DNC or be the next candidate for President.
All superdelegates that endorsed summer of last year should be in no way in the running for any sort of leadership position. Because they showed themselves as being incapable of allowing the primary to run it's course and had decided before a single vote was cast who the nominee would be.

This is the type of leadership democrats don't need. What they need is someone who doesn't take the primary for granted and who doesn't spend resources and time to court Republican voters. Hillary and the DNC spend too much time thinking Trump would somehow depress Republican turnout or that Republicans would vote for her... which is pretty much the most convoluted idea anyone could have after witnessing Kerry run the very same campaign against a person who had actual blood of millions on his hands.
Dems never learned the lesson of 2004 and thats why they repeated the exercise in 2016 - thankfully Obama ran in 2008 otherwise I'm 100% sure that McCain would not have picked Palin and would have won the GE against Clinton.

Appealing to people who vote Republican in previous election or vote Tea Party in midterms is an exercise in futility.
 
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