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[Captain N]

I was wondering what everyone thought about this and what would happen if Sega got Square to release Final Fantasy VII on the Saturn and later have Final Fantasy IX or X to be released on the Dreamcast.

Would Sega still go third party and how long ago would we have said good bye to Square?

 

[Green Shinobi]

The overworld in Final Fantasy VII would have looked like an even bigger pile of sh*t.

But the game would have had great sprites.

 

[TheKingsCrown]

Yes.

 

[Anzu]

Things would've looked brighter for Sega, but you need to remember that Sony helped Square out ALOT financially after the BOMBA that was The Spirits Within, would Sega have done that? I don't think they could've afforded to, even with FF success on their consoles.

 

[Smokey]

I was wondering what everyone thought about this and what would happen if Sega got Square to release Final Fantasy VII on the Saturn and later have Final Fantasy IX or X to be released on the Dreamcast.

Would Sega still go third party and how long ago would we have said good bye to Square?

If the FF was on the Saturn at that time, it would of taken off just like the PS1. Or maybe not that extreme, but FF's influence was undeniable at the time. It's the game that obviously (help)propel Sony and the PS Brand to what it is today.

Same can be said with Nintendo. If FF was on the 64 it would've been all over for Sony.

 

[sevenchaos]

I remember there was this guy who was trying to port FFVII to the Saturn.

Not being a DVD player was big factor for the Dreamcast early on I think.

 

[Green Shinobi]

Not being a DVD player was big factor for the Dreamcast early on I think.

That and "66 million polygons per second!" (the Playstation 2 announcement).

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Hard to say what would have happened in the long term. Enix, had they stuck it out with Saturn, could've changed the landscape significantly in Japan by finishing their job on DQVII instead of moving it to PS1 a bit later. It may not have been enough to change the overall result, but I think that DC could've have gotten off to a better start with the help of DQ.

 

[Mikazuki]

Things would've looked brighter for Sega, but you need to remember that Sony helped Square out ALOT financially after the BOMBA that was The Spirits Within, would Sega have done that? I don't think they could've afforded to, even with FF success on their consoles.

But...FFVII on Saturn would have possibly had a lot less FMV...leading to Square not being known for FMV and never even considering the movie...

 

[grandjedi6]

The same could be said of all systems

 

[PolyGone]

Yes, hugely different.

The Saturn was number 1 in Japan for awhile, even after Square had announced a bunch of games, but really started losing steam after Enix jumped on board with the DQ7 announcement. Had Square decided to go with the Saturn, the system would have been even more successful, and with Enix's stance of releasing DQ on the system with the largest userbase, chances are good that DQ7 would have been a Saturn game.

Also, since most of the early PlayStation megahits, such as WipeOut , Resident Evil, and Tomb Raider became available on the Saturn, the PlayStation brand wouldn't have had enough must-have system exclusives to garner attention away from Sega's sterling line up of arcade ports.

Really, had Square jumped on board, the only thing stopping SEGA from world domination was SOA itself. No Princess Crown? No Grandia? No Shining Force 3 eps 2 and 3? And thats just the tip of the iceberg really.

Also, many of our favorite games of the PS era would probably look graphically inferior, with a few exceptions (mainly 2d stuff).

 

[Y2Kev]

Square on Saturn IV: Things Will be Different

I can't believe people still think Stolar blocking RPGs like Princess Crown is a big reason for why the Saturn failed. Sega was out of money, had a corporate structure more convoluted than Sony has today, killed European support by ending the Megadrive prematurely (in their view, anyway), and built a complicated machine that just wasn't worth it for a lot of developers and produced worse results for the developers that did try.

DQ7 was at once point a Saturn game. Not likely, was.

The Saturn was a great console and I really love the games that eventually came out on it, but if anyone is to blame for the Saturn (and really the Dreamcast too) failing globally it's SOJ, not SOA.

 

[S-Wind]

I was told [a completely unverifiable rumour that someone heard from "someone in the know"] that Squaresoft first went to SEGA wanting to put Final Fantasy on the SEGA Master System. Why the SEGA Master System? Because it was technologically superior to the NES. SEGA was working on Phantasy Star at the time and didn't want two competing RPGs on the system so they turned down Squaresoft. Remember, Squaresoft was a nobody on the brink of bankruptcy at the time. Final Fantasy was to be their last game, hence the word "Final" in its name.

So Squaresoft went over to Nintendo. The rest is history.

[yeah, it's probably 100% BS]

Mind you, that does sound like something SEGA would do. Remember what happened to Eternal Champions: The Final Chapter for the SEGA Saturn? Dammit! That trilogy will remain forever incomplete.

Also, that is consistent with Squaresoft's constant refusal to work with SEGA. The put FF on the freakin' WONDERSWAN over working with SEGA!

[Still probably BS!]

 

[PowerSmell]

Would things have been different if SoA had released Grandia back then?

 

[PolyGone]

I was told [a completely unverifiable rumour that someone heard from "someone in the know"] that Squaresoft first went to SEGA wanting to put Final Fantasy on the SEGA Master System. Why the SEGA Master System? Because it was technologically superior to the NES. SEGA was working on Phantasy Star at the time and didn't want two competing RPGs on the system so they turned down Squaresoft.

complete nonsense. Square's programmers had already coded several NES games in the lead up to FF, and were more than comfortable with Nintendo's hardware and complete console market dominance.

 

[sevenchaos]

That and "66 million polygons per second!" (the Playstation 2 announcement).

I don't think so. The soccer mom did not go out and buy her kid a PS2 because of it's polygon pushing power. It was the cheapest DVD player on the market at the time. Was a very good way of convincing people it was worth all 300 dollars.

 

[PolyGone]

I don't think so. The soccer mom did not go out and buy her kid a PS2 because of it's polygon pushing power. It was the cheapest DVD play on the market at the time. Was a very good way of convincing people it was worth all 300 dollars.

backwards compatibility was also a major factor, at least amongst us PS1 fans... and we are legion

 

[Anzu]

But...FFVII on Saturn would have possibly had a lot less FMV...leading to Square not being known for FMV and never even considering the movie...

Did I miss something or was the Saturn inferior in FMV to the PSone?

It would've been nice for Square to make use of the 4MB RAM Cart on the Saturn to reduce loading times (or anything else they can use it for).

Sega profiting from FFVII would've meant monies in the bank to bring Shining Force 3 trilogy to the western market, plus other games that didn't make it here. Also other third party devs would've brought their RPG franchises to the machine too, making it a powerhouse for any RPG fan, because inevitably, Final Fantasy on your console means you'll have a horde of RPG sheep right behind it, making your system pretty much number one in japan. This was the case for SNES, PSone, PS2 and once FFXIII hits PS3, the triple too I'm sure.

 

[PolyGone]

Did I miss something or was the Saturn inferior in FMV to the PSone?

It depends on the game. Most games used very sh*tty cinepak compression, but others, such as the Lunar remakes, have excellent quality FMV (though letterboxed). But I think the other poster was referring to the Saturn's lower capacity discs, which hold about 100-150 MB less than the PS1 discs, meaning that the FMV would have to be compressed to all hell or be axed completely.

 

[S-Wind]

complete nonsense. Square's programmers had already coded several NES games in the lead up to FF, and were more than comfortable with Nintendo's hardware and complete console market dominance.

Like I said, it's BS. Fun BS though, since it is so consistent with how SEGA would act

I don't think so. The soccer mom did not go out and buy her kid a PS2 because of it's polygon pushing power. It was the cheapest DVD player on the market at the time. Was a very good way of convincing people it was worth all 300 dollars.

I keep hearing that the PS2 was the cheapest DVD player on the market at the time, but I suspect that it's just a myth that has been repeated so often that it's no longer challenged. I remember shortly before the PS2 came out, mid-end DVD players were already dropping to the $200 ballpark.

Did I miss something or was the Saturn inferior in FMV to the PSone?

Yup!

The psx had built-in FMV capabilities. The Saturn did not. There was an MPEG card (official and 3rd party) released for it in Japan. With that card, the Saturn's FMV capabilites > psx's FMV capabilities. Just compare LUNAR: SSS to see what I mean.

 

[nincompoop]

I remember there was this guy who was trying to port FFVII to the Saturn.

Not being a DVD player was big factor for the Dreamcast early on I think.

The Dreamcast was a doomed system from the start, so it wouldn't have made any sense to develop a large budget game like Final Fantasy for it. I doubt the technical limitations of the Dreamcast had that much to do with it.

 

[jeremy1456]

If FFVII had retained all of it's production values and advertisement, along with being the same exact game, then yes things would have turned around for the saturn...

...and the console market probably would have been a tie, assuming DQVII was released for the Playstation.

If the former came out on Saturn too, then there probably wouldn't be a PS3 right now.

 

[Link316]

I seriously doubt it, Sony did more than just get FFVII, what Sony did right with Square was to help make Final Fantasy finally become successful in the US, based on what Sega with the Saturn here, even if they had gotten FFVII it probably would've remained only in Japan like so many other Saturn games did, and if by some chance it did get released in the US, Sega certainly wouldn't have given it the kind of push that Sony gave it, so FF would've remained unpopular here and Square would've remained a small company

 

[AdmiralViscen]

It depends on the game. Most games used very sh*tty cinepak compression, but others, such as the Lunar remakes, have excellent quality FMV (though letterboxed). But I think the other poster was referring to the Saturn's lower capacity discs, which hold about 100-150 MB less than the PS1 discs, meaning that the FMV would have to be compressed to all hell or be axed completely.

Axed completely? FF7 would have been 4 discs instead of 3.

 

[Johnny]

FFVII was freakin' HUGE back in the day, I swear those FMV commercials aired for a solid year and it really turned the tide in the PlayStation's favour. The same thing happened with MGS2 for the PS2, only that wasn't so much a changing tide but the nail in Dreamcast's coffin.

A single game can make a huge difference, Donkey Kong Country for instance. At the end of the day this industry is still about the games and that's refreshing.

 

[anotherworld]

i am sure tbe saturn prob couldn't pull off those 3D battles..Maybe FF7 would of been like

 

[M3d10n]

It depends on the game. Most games used very sh*tty cinepak compression, but others, such as the Lunar remakes, have excellent quality FMV (though letterboxed). But I think the other poster was referring to the Saturn's lower capacity discs, which hold about 100-150 MB less than the PS1 discs, meaning that the FMV would have to be compressed to all hell or be axed completely.

What? Nonsense! Please look at Lunar 2: Eternal Blue.

The Saturn version uses only 2 discs, while the PSOne version spans 3 CDs. The Epilogue didn't fit the first disc and they had to move it into a new one. Plus most cutscenes were letterboxed on the Playstation, while on the Saturn they were all full-screen.



I can't believe you guys are discussing disc capacity, while the major problem would probably be the sheer amount of transparencies used during the spells and summons. Even if Square used the Burning Rangers engine, it wouldn't look the same since the Saturn could not do accumulative additive blending.

At most they'd look like Shining Force 3 spells, which are still pretty (scenarios 2 and 3 summons), but different.

Transparencies and dithering aside, the 3D battles themselves would probably look the same. The untextured characters wouldn't be too taxing on the Saturn's weaker 3D chip, the framerate was bad already, and they could use a mode7 plane instead of the polygonal flat ground (would look smoother too).

...but that would never happened. AFAIK, the Playstation already had a nice advantage on the Saturn in Japan, and in USA the situation was even more extreme. SOA and SOJ were too busy fighting among themselves to go around securing third party support.

 

[ethelred]

The Saturn was a great console and I really love the games that eventually came out on it, but if anyone is to blame for the Saturn (and really the Dreamcast too) failing globally it's SOJ, not SOA.

Rrrreeeaally?

Sega of Japan sure played a big role, but laying the blame entirely at their feet? It's not like Sega of America was innocent in that failure, either. While lack of communication from Japan was a big issue, SoA still had a major part to play in the 32X debacle, and that seriously weakened Sega in the west. Sega of America also came up with the utterly brilliant surprise launch plan -- that sure worked out well, didn't it?

 

[S-Wind]

Did someone say transparencies?

Four words:

Sonic R

Radiant Emerald

 

[beef3483]

Looking at those sprites compared to FFVII's polygons and I think that FFVII might have aged better.

 

[ethelred]

Looking at those sprites compared to FFVII's polygons and I think that FFVII might have aged better.

Oh, please. Albert Odyssey was a gussied up SNES game. It was hardly the finest example of what the Saturn was capable of.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Things would've looked brighter for Sega, but you need to remember that Sony helped Square out ALOT financially after the BOMBA that was The Spirits Within, would Sega have done that? I don't think they could've afforded to, even with FF success on their consoles.

With FF7 advertising too I think

Even for someone who read gaming mags avidly back in 1996 and 1997, if you go back and spend a couple hours looking through every month of 3-4 issues, it can be stunning just how massive the FF7 hype and ad campaign was.

CGI two-page ad after CGI two-page ad.

 

[beef3483]

Oh, please. Albert Odyssey was a gussied up SNES game. It was hardly the finest example of what the Saturn was capable of.

Yeah, so? Have you seen VIIs character models lately? They look terrible. This, to me, looks much better.

 

[S-Wind]

Yeah, so? Have you seen VIIs character models lately? They look terrible. This, to me, looks much better.

Nevermind the characters, I thought most of the non CGI visuals from FFVII looked terrible back then! Unfortunately, people were too wowed by OMG! ITS 3D!!! to notice or care. It boggled my mind that so many people were so happy to go from the gorgeous 2D sprites of the end of the 16-bit era to the crappy low-poly, low res textures, grainy, clipping, pop up, 3D visuals that characterize the vast majority of 3D games from that generation.

It's like now that a lot of people look back and finally see that 3D graphics are to the PSX/N64 generation what 2D graphics were to the NES generation.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Yeah, so? Have you seen VIIs character models lately? They look terrible. This, to me, looks much better.

I think he'd be inclined to ask the same question. Remember, we're talking about the context of 1996 and 1997 here, and how different things would affect the success of the game and potential platforms back then. How well any particular graphic style has aged has no real value in that regard.

 

[Captain N]

If I'm not mistaken wasn't the Saturn harder to make games on? I thought I heard that the Playstation was easier.

 

[Kingpin]

If I'm not mistaken wasn't the Saturn harder to make games on? I thought I heard that the Playstation was easier.

Exactly. It had this weird dual-GPU thing, it was really hard to make games for.

The Saturn could have been great (a 2D system hard to make games for...), the Dreamcast was, and if they had Square, I believe that Sega would still be making consoles today.

 

[Captain N]

Exactly. It had this weird dual-GPU thing, it was really hard to make games for.

The Saturn could have been great (a 2D system hard to make games for...), the Dreamcast was, and if they had Square, I believe that Sega would still be making consoles today.

So you do feel that Sega would still be making consoles? What do you think they'd be doing today? in terms of online play and where would Microsoft stand right now?

 

[StingerNLG]

If I'm not mistaken wasn't the Saturn harder to make games on? I thought I heard that the Playstation was easier.

It was. It was one of those consoles devs back then used the term "tap the metal" for. You could make incredible looking games on the Saturn, and there really were some (ala Panzer Dragoon). But you almost had to program 100% assembly to do it.

ethelred is also right about SOA's poor choice in the early Saturn launch. I was working for EB at the time (which I think was then still Games & Gadgets), when the launch happened. Kay-Bee Toys was PISSED. And they never carried the system. I can't remember if they carried the Dreamcast either. I want to say they did, but it was very limited.

 

[Red Blaster]

I'd wager MS would've never made the Xbox if Sega was still making successful machines. They'd probably team up with Sega and help with their online infrastructure.

 

[hoverX]

It boggled my mind that so many people were so happy to go from the gorgeous 2D sprites of the end of the 16-bit era to the crappy low-poly, low res textures, grainy, clipping, pop up, 3D visuals that characterize the vast majority of 3D games from that generation.

It's like now that a lot of people look back and finally see that 3D graphics are to the PSX/N64 generation what 2D graphics were to the NES generation.

I agree, that was the reason i never bought a playstation back then. I took one look at those shitty 3D graphics and said 'big ****ing deal!' i'd rather play good looking 2D than shitty 3D.

 

[djtiesto]

Nevermind the characters, I thought most of the non CGI visuals from FFVII looked terrible back then! Unfortunately, people were too wowed by OMG! ITS 3D!!! to notice or care. It boggled my mind that so many people were so happy to go from the gorgeous 2D sprites of the end of the 16-bit era to the crappy low-poly, low res textures, grainy, clipping, pop up, 3D visuals that characterize the vast majority of 3D games from that generation.

It's like now that a lot of people look back and finally see that 3D graphics are to the PSX/N64 generation what 2D graphics were to the NES generation.

Ehh, honestly plenty of NES games have held up much better graphically (and with a higher framerate, less glitching) than plenty of the 32 bit 3D titles. It wasn't till DC that 3D graphics got tolerable and attractive, seeing Soul Calibur for the first time was just such a leap ahead of what other games were available on consoles at the time.

 

[Anzu]

I'd wager MS would've never made the Xbox if Sega was still making successful machines. They'd probably team up with Sega and help with their online infrastructure.

They would've just bought Sega. I think MS is too greedy to just be a partner in such a huge industry, they'd want as much of the market share as possible.

 

[D.Lo]

If the FF was on the Saturn at that time, it would of taken off just like the PS1. Or maybe not that extreme, but FF's influence was undeniable at the time. It's the game that obviously (help)propel Sony and the PS Brand to what it is today.

Same can be said with Nintendo. If FF was on the 64 it would've been all over for Sony.

Yep.

 

[Y2Kev]

Rrrreeeaally?

Sega of Japan sure played a big role, but laying the blame entirely at their feet? It's not like Sega of America was innocent in that failure, either. While lack of communication from Japan was a big issue, SoA still had a major part to play in the 32X debacle, and that seriously weakened Sega in the west. Sega of America also came up with the utterly brilliant surprise launch plan -- that sure worked out well, didn't it?

I am not laying the blame entirely at SOJ's feet. I would suggest, however, that SOJ was more responsible than SOA-- just like in the Dreamcast era.

I do not blame SOA for the surprise launch.

Shortly thereafter, yet another delegation from Japan paid its respects at Sega of America headquarders. Paid its respects is probably not the correct term; arrived to give Nakayama's latest marching orders was probably more like it. The 32X debacle had caused Kalinske's Japanese masters to begin reasserting control of what they considered to be their errant American underlings. Sega of Japan was concerned about the growing PlayStation hype. Sony was rumored to be planning a massively expensive pre-launch marketing campaign to make sure that the PlayStation got plenty of media exposure for its upcoming launch that fall. Nakayama was taking no chances - he was convinced that Sega needed to strike the first blow and hopefully knock Sony out of the running before PlayStation could get up a full head of steam. Why? Sony had deep pockets; Sega didn't. Sony could easily outspend Sega in a marketing war; therefore, Sega would have to beat them on product alone. With this in mind, Nakayama ordered Sega of America to accellerate the U.S. launch of the Saturn and bring it to market at the first available opportunity. The price of the Saturn in the U.S. would remain unchanged - about US$400 or so. Kalinske vehemently objected, as did practically everybody at Sega of America. All of them, in one form or another, were trying to tell Nakayama the same thing: "It's too early to launch the Saturn in America. The price is too high, and we have practically no software for it." Both Nakayama and the rest of Sega's corporate board of directors refused to listen, for Sega of Japan was by now calling the shots. The future of Sega was at stake and the odds were long. Since Sega could never conceivably outspend Sony, they had to find a way to outsell them. Such a move required a daring stroke, one that would gain instant market attention. An early launch of the Saturn in the U.S. would do just that; futhermore, it would give the console valuable lead time in this new market that was still anybody's for the taking. Saturn had proven itself in Japan against PlayStation, it seemed, so there was no reason not to expect the same in America. Sega of Japan did not want Saturn to suffer the same fate as the 32X - a fiasco for which some personally blamed Kalinske. The pleas of Sega of America was overruled by Nakayama, and from that point forward Kalinske and his staff would have practically no say in managing the affairs of Sega's U.S. market interests.

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php?page=SegaBase+Saturn+p2

SOJ's complete "redesign" of the system at the last minute is also an incredibly important point.

I also consider SOJ responsible for killing Sonic X-Treme. Haha.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I also consider SOJ responsible for killing Sonic X-Treme. Haha.

Well then, that's one thing we can thank them for.

 

[Azure Dream]

Well then, that's one thing we can thank them for.

Sonic Xtreme is a completely different story. There's lots of details about it that aren't well-known, and several setbacks were made to the US development team by the Japanese executives and teams. For example, at one point it was going to use the NiGHTS engine, and they made some headway into that, but Yuji Naka threw a fit and demanded they stop using it.

Someone significant in Sonic Xtreme's development has spoken up as of late, and shown off a lot of his prototype and early design work: he "got it" a lot better than you would've thought from the sole video and handful of screenshots, the game just didn't get the chance to show it.


At any rate, I think Square's FF7 was the turning point for PS1 success in at least the US, so while it may not have necessarily ultimately changed who's ranked where now, it would've had a major impact had it been Saturn exclusive.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Yes, Square would have gone bankrupt. Sega was profit cancer.

Spoiler

I'm making that up.

PEACE.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

"When this kiss is over/it will start again/it will not be any different/it will be exactly the same..."

 

[Y2Kev]

Sonic X-Treme's fisheye lens was an interesting way of attempting to fix the Sonic camera problem that still hasn't been fixed today.