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[SquiddyCracker]

they're also a collection of atoms

Unless I see you humping that rock, you're a mineraloidbigot.

 

[Petrie]

A Penis and scrottum ARE a modified vagina.

Modified clitoris, to be more exact

Actually, since we're all technically female when we're first conceived in the womb, aren't all penis' modified vagina's?

This is about as obtuse as we can get.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

I'm trying to catch up on the thread but I need to ask now: if I respect the decision, I'm willing to be friends and will defend your honor from intolerant individuals but I wouldn't date you due to reasons I admit are wrong/silly but can't help, am I a bigot?

If so then damn. I hope at the very least we can remain friendly because I can't really help it.

For real. You can't say anything without someone finding some sort of prejudice in your statement. There is no rationality for it.

 

[dubq]

This is about as obtuse as we can get.

It actually isn't. Or do you need to read some material on the SRY gene?

 

[Tesseract]

technically you're bigoting yourself, which is why we're all in the matrix

 

[Herpes Reasons]

For real. You can't say anything without someone finding some sort of prejudice in your statement. There is no rationality for it.

This is exactly why these types of threads rarely change the hearts and minds of others. Because the word bigot is thrown around like it's going out of style. People have this idea that every single human DESERVES to be romanticized and attracted by someone else or they're experiencing bigotry, hatred, etc.

 

[Mumei]

So you're saying that if I'm willing to have sex with a woman who has a surgically repaired vagina that I should be willing to have sex with a woman who had a penis turned into a surgically created vagina or else I'm a bigot. Ok.

Well, no. I'm not making that distinction. I'm arguing that if I showed you a picture of a woman in a state of undress, you said that you would like to have sex with her, and then when you found out that she was transgender, you lost your interest, that would be bigoted. I'm arguing that if you had sex with a woman, and you were attracted to her and enjoyed it when you thought she was cissexual, and then felt disgusted / disturbed / betrayed / deceived when you learned that she was transsexual, that's bigoted.

A Penis and scrottum ARE a modified vagina.

Modified clitoris and ovaries , to be more exact

Right? I mean, the only difference is that in one the modification happened in utero and in the other it happened surgically. And there's way too much sturm und drang over this distinction.

This is exactly why these types of threads rarely change the hearts and minds of others. Because the word bigot is thrown around like it's going out of style. People have this idea that every single human DESERVES to be romanticized and attracted by someone else or they're experiencing bigotry, hatred, etc.

To be fair, I don't think we're talking about the rights of any particular individual, but about abstractions (a hypothetical woman who you would find attractive if she were presented to you as cissexual and unattractive if she were presented to you as transsexual) and classes of people.

 

[Tesseract]

This is exactly why these types of threads rarely change the hearts and minds of others. Because the word bigot is thrown around like it's going out of style. People have this idea that every single human DESERVES to be romanticized and attracted by someone else or they're experiencing bigotry, hatred, etc.

it's a strange thing, like shakespeare has shot his heart at us

 

[RDreamer]

Threads like this are very hard, because I think in the realms of phobias and other -isms like racism, sexuality seems to be the last pillar to fall. It's so very personal and localized compared to other things that even people who fight their asses off for rights can fall into un-attraction for very little or no logical reason. Part of that is because we don't analyze these things. Someone said that earlier in this thread, that trans people are forced to analyze these things where as cisgendered people just don't have to. These threads do help a lot. I have to say that NeoGAF as a whole over the years has been one of the largest factors in turning around what was once a really bigoted opinion of trans people.

I'm still not quite where I'd like to be, though. I realize that, and these threads do help me analyze things. My initial instinct would be to say no I probably wouldn't date a trans person. I've really romanticized the idea of having my own biological offspring and pretty much everything that goes with that, so that would be part of the deal breaker. The other part is a lot of the little things that science hasn't quite perfected with regard to reassigning genitals. In theory if they ever perfected that, I'd be down. That doesn't make them not real women or not real men or whatever they identify with. I'm not attracted to certain features on people, but they're still people.

That's the thing though, too, is that all of this is purely theoretical, and every single one of us has this clearly romanticized idea of who we want or would be attracted to. I bet if you made a thread asking people if they'd date someone overweight you'd get a lot of responses against that. I bet if some of those same people fell in love with someone they could look past that. I've been there. I hit it off really well with someone before who absolutely didn't have the body type I thought I wanted. But I fell in love. I think that could happen with a trans person, too, if we hit it off really well. I don't know. Love is crazy, and fascinating.

My other apprehension with dating a trans person would be my family's reaction. It think someone else mentioned it, too, but it'd probably be easier to date someone that was very insular on the subject and others didn't know. If they were very open, dating someone trans would basically mean separating myself from my entire family because they're all completely backwoods hick about this sort of thing. In my own mind I'm responding to that notion with "good, fuck those people, then!" but I also feel like trans people deserve a good healthy relationship where they can be open and not be afraid that the other person has to divorce their family for 'em. They don't need another battle and more stress.

So my long and confused answer to the original OP is that I wouldn't rule out dating a trans person as long as the transition is 100% complete (just not attracted to penises, sorry ), and I fell for them. I do have a certain amount of hesitation in myself that I dislike, though, but then again I dislike that same hesitation when it comes to being completely sexually attracted overweight people or people of some other races or people with certain features. I want to be able to be attracted purely to the person, but yeah, this shit's weird.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

This is exactly why these types of threads rarely change the hearts and minds of others. Because the word bigot is thrown around like it's going out of style. People have this idea that every single human DESERVES to be romanticized and attracted by someone else or they're experiencing bigotry, hatred, etc.

Exactly. Thank you. I try my best to understand the position but I get kind of tired of being insulted for unknown reasons. No one is going to magically understand the minutia of being transgendered when they aren't one themselves. Why not help us understand instead of continually saying, "you're cisgendered, you don't get it."

Well, no shit. Doesn't mean I'm a bigot.

 

[collige]

One is a modified penis.

The other is a modified vagina.

Those 2 things are not the same.

His entire reason can be not wanting to put his dick in a modified dick. That's ok.

That's a pretty irrational reason. If there's no functional difference between the two. People have posted pretty good analogies above, but surely you see how fucking ridiculous it is to discriminate between two people based solely of the prior arrangement of their skin?

 

[Petrie]

It actually isn't. Or do you need to read some material on the SRY gene?

I don't need to read anything more to understand there's a difference between a clitoris that developed in the embryo to a penis, vs a fully developed penis that has then been reconstructed into a modified penis.

You're being obtuse comparing the 2.

That's a pretty irrational reason. If there's no functional difference between the two. People have posted pretty good analogies above, but surely you see how fucking ridiculous it is to discriminate between two people based solely of the prior arrangement of their skin?

Nothing ridiculous about not wanting to put your penis in a modified penis.

It personally wouldn't bother me, but the oral parts of the equation would be dealbreakers for me. Which is why a casual hookup would be fine but anything long-term would not.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

The difference is that being fat is a physical characterization is a physical characteristic that affects one appearance. Being trans isn't. Yes, being trans comes with other physical side effects that one may find objectionable, but if those side effects aren't a problem when the woman is straight, then you're just discriminating.

But physical characteristics aren't the only deciding factor to attraction. The idea that someone isn't attractive because of something from their past isn't discriminatory. Even if they're a woman now, I find it unattractive that it took surgery to get there, and the vast majority of the dating pool doesn't have this issue. That doesn't mean I don't think they deserve the same rights and respect as anyone else. But my attraction isn't a right for anyone.

 

[hobblygobbly]

That's an interesting question and something I've kind of wondered.

I support LGBT 100% in every way, I understand why someone would be transgender, I was an acquaintance with someone in school who after school became transgender and she explained it to me and made me more aware, but I was never against it and never will be.

But here comes my experiences/feelings as a heterosexual male. If I know someone is transgender (so for me, male to female), then I have no romantic/sexual attraction, I don't know why. I can clearly see some are beautiful but knowing the fact that they're transgender somehow affects me in not being attracted to them sexually/romantically.

HOWEVER, if I was consciously unaware of someone being transgender (and this has happened to me), I was attracted, I found them sexy, but later found out they were transgendered. I wasn't uncomfortable or anything but the feeling changed.

I can't begin to explain why this is so, it's not as my view has changed, it's still the same, I have nothing against anyone who is transgender, but consciously knowing it has affected my attraction.

This is a deeper question I think that lays in human psychology and biology and not just related to view, I seriously can't comprehend/explain why this changes for me - is it some crazy type of juxtaposition when consciously known? I just thought I'd share my feelings.

I just can't understand it myself and would like to understand. It's not a matter of view for me, it's a feeling, it's just not the same. Maybe this is entirely bigoted but I really don't know how to explain it and it's definitely not intentional.

Is it down to something such as genetically still what they were born as but in terms of sexual biology (i.e sexual organs etc) they're now what they changed to, can somehow my attraction/feelings change because my chemistry doesn't "look past" the genetic side?

I hope this isn't offensive. I'm not the best with wording what I feel.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

But physical characteristics aren't the only deciding factor to attraction. The idea that someone isn't attractive because of something from their past isn't discriminatory. Even if they're a woman now, I find it unattractive that it took surgery to get there, and the vast majority of the dating pool doesn't have this issue. That doesn't mean I don't think they deserve the same rights and respect as anyone else. But my attraction isn't a right for anyone.

This is bigoted, ignorant language. By the way, you seem horrifically unattractive, given your posts in this thread. No one's arguing the strawmen you keep throwing down.

That's an interesting question and something I've kind of wondered.

I support LGBT 100% in every way, I understand why someone would be transgender, I was an acquaintance with someone in school who after school became transgender and she explained it to me and made me more aware, but I was never against it and never will be.

But here comes my experiences/feelings as a heterosexual male. If I know someone is transgender (so for me, male to female), then I have no romantic/sexual attraction, I don't know why. I can clearly see some are beautiful but knowing the fact that they're transgender somehow affects me in not being attracted to them sexually/romantically.

HOWEVER, if I was consciously unaware of someone being transgender (and this has happened to me), I was attracted, I found them sexy, but later found out they were transgendered. I wasn't uncomfortable or anything but the feeling changed.

I can't begin to explain why this is so, it's not as my view has changed, it's still the same, I have nothing against anyone who is transgender, but consciously knowing it has affected my attraction.

This is a deeper question I think that lays in human psychology and biology and not just related to view, I seriously can't comprehend/explain why this changes for me - is it some crazy type of juxtaposition when consciously known? I just thought I'd share my feelings.

I just can't understand it myself and would like to understand. It's not a matter of view for me, it's a feeling, it's just not the same. Maybe this is entirely bigoted but I really don't know how to explain it and it's definitely not intentional.

Is it down to something such as genetically still what they were born as but in terms of sexual biology (i.e sexual organs etc) they're now what they changed to, can somehow my attraction/feelings change because my chemistry doesn't "look past" the genetic side?

I hope this isn't offensive. I'm not the best with wording what I feel.

It sounds to me like you've discovered one of your prejudices, and are trying to decide whether or not you're willing to unravel why you feel that way and get past it. It's healthy to deconstruct prejudices and live the "100% in every way" support you present yourself as giving.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Well, no. I'm not making that distinction. I'm arguing that if I showed you a picture of a woman in a state of undress, you said that you would like to have sex with her, and then when you found out that she was transgender, you lost your interest, that would be bigoted. I'm arguing that if you had sex with a woman, and you were attracted to her and enjoyed it when you thought she was cissexual, and then felt disgusted / disturbed / betrayed / deceived when you learned that she was transsexual, that's bigoted.



Right? I mean, the only difference is that in one the modification happened in utero and in the other it happened surgically. And there's way too much sturm und drang over this distinction.

I enjoy salmon, fresh salmon to be exact. I don't like farm raised salmon because I don't like the environment in which these salmon are raised. They may taste close to being the same but having had the best salmon from the Pacific Northwest, I don't want to eat farm raised. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with farm raised, it's just not for me. I also prefer to eat organic fruits instead of non-organic. They may taste very similar and even if I had one and enjoyed it only to find out it wasn't organic, I'd then probably regret it.

No difference then with a trans. I may find a trans attractive but learning he or she was trans would cause me to lose interest because I prefer someone who is physically female from birth. If you want to call me a bigot then have at it. I've been on this forum long enough to see just how easily that word is thrown around by certain individuals. And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Exactly. Thank you. I try my best to understand the position but I get kind of tired of being insulted for unknown reasons. No one is going to magically understand the minutia of being transgendered when they aren't one themselves. Why not help us understand instead of continually saying, "you're cisgendered, you don't get it."

Well, no shit. Doesn't mean I'm a bigot.

I agree with you and the poster you quoted. In this thread Ive been called a racist(or having racist attitudes) as well. Its just silly and stupid that people resort to ad hominem when they dislike your position.

 

[dubq]

I don't need to read anything more to understand there's a difference between a clitoris that developed in the embryo to a penis, vs a fully developed penis that has then been reconstructed into a modified penis.

You're being obtuse comparing the 2.

I don't think you know the proper definition of obtuse. I fully understand what you are saying. I am saying you are wrong. Nothing obtuse about that.

 

[User 73706]

Exactly. Thank you. I try my best to understand the position but I get kind of tired of being insulted for unknown reasons. No one is going to magically understand the minutia of being transgendered when they aren't one themselves. Why not help us understand instead of continually saying, "you're cisgendered, you don't get it."

Well, no shit. Doesn't mean I'm a bigot.

Look back just a handful of pages. Before it started getting late last night, we had a ton of people having cordial discussion on both sides of the argument and some legitimate strides towards understanding were being made. You can't just pull the "they called me a bad word" card and assume that automatically makes you free from scrutiny or incapable of development, or else you aren't going to end up getting anywhere.

But physical characteristics aren't the only deciding factor to attraction. The idea that someone isn't attractive because of something from their past isn't discriminatory. Even if they're a woman now, I find it unattractive that it took surgery to get there, and the vast majority of the dating pool doesn't have this issue. That doesn't mean I don't think they deserve the same rights and respect as anyone else. But my attraction isn't a right for anyone.

I think you'd be extremely surprised how many women get braces, have their appendixes removed, clear up acne scarring, get skin grafts or remove stretch marks, had broken bones, had their gums reduced, etc.

 

[Osiris]

Well, no. I'm not making that distinction. I'm arguing that if I showed you a picture of a woman in a state of undress, you said that you would like to have sex with her, and then when you found out that she was transgender, you lost your interest, that would be bigoted. I'm arguing that if you had sex with a woman, and you were attracted to her and enjoyed it when you thought she was cissexual, and then felt disgusted / disturbed / betrayed / deceived when you learned that she was transsexual, that's bigoted.



Right? I mean, the only difference is that in one the modification happened in utero and in the other it happened surgically. And there's way too much sturm und drang over this distinction.



To be fair, I don't think we're talking about the rights of any particular individual, but about abstractions (a hypothetical woman who you would find attractive if she were presented to you as cissexual and unattractive if she were presented to you as transsexual) and classes of people.

Taking such things to these extremes is pointless, you are effectively moving to the point of arguing that a heterosexual man is therefore bigoted for dismissing gay sex as an option for himself, I mean there's no effective difference between the sexes right?

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Yes, you're a bigot.

Well damn. I never really considered myself one but I hope at least that Trans people don't look down on me/judge me for it when it seems to me as widespread and ingrained in culture as it is.

 

[collige]

But physical characteristics aren't the only deciding factor to attraction. The idea that someone isn't attractive because of something from their past isn't discriminatory. Even if they're a woman now, I find it unattractive that it took surgery to get there, and the vast majority of the dating pool doesn't have this issue. That doesn't mean I don't think they deserve the same rights and respect as anyone else. But my attraction isn't a right for anyone.

The person I'm replying to specifically stated that the surgery part isn't a hangup. Would you also not date someone who was born with an extra finger that was removed? Someone who had their appendix removed? What would you do in Mumei's hypothetical situation?

 

[Jaffaboy]

Yep.

How can they consider a physical body to be attractive or innocuous when it is assumed to be cissexual, then suddenly find it to be horrific or threatening upon the discovery that it is transsexual. And if such dramatically different responses can be elicited by the same human being under different circumstances, doesn't that indicate that the real difference resides in the cissexual mind and not in the transsexual body?​

Lack of understanding and social consensus. People generally fear things they don't know or understand. They also fear what others think of their actions especially if it's seen as out of the norm by public consensus. Awareness and education on this topic obviously aren't good enough in this day and age and this thread is evidence of that. Eradicating ignorance and changing attitudes about anything in society is not easy. Look at racism and sexism, issues that have existed for hundreds of years and even though attitudes are improving, it's very slowly.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Look back just a handful of pages. Before it started getting late last night, we had a ton of people having cordial discussion on both sides of the argument and some legitimate strides towards understanding were being made. You can't just pull the "they called me a bad word" card and assume that automatically makes you free from scrutiny or incapable of development, or else you aren't going to end up getting ..

If by cordial you mean we spent about 5 pages or so determining if people were racist, sure.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Well damn. I never really considered myself one but I hope at least that Trans people don't look down on me/judge me for it when it seems to me as widespread and ingrained in culture as it is.

BTW, that was me being sarcastic since bigot is apparently the word of the week in terms of this specific thread. When in doubt, use the word bigot if you disagree with the other person.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

I enjoy salmon, fresh salmon to be exact. I don't like farm raised salmon because I don't like the environment in which these salmon are raised. They may taste close to being the same but having had the best salmon from the Pacific Northwest, I don't want to eat farm raised. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with farm raised, it's just not for me. I also prefer to eat organic fruits instead of non-organic. They may taste very similar and even if I had one and enjoyed it only to find out it wasn't organic, I'd then probably regret it.

No difference then with a trans. I may find a trans attractive but learning he or she was trans would cause me to lose interest because I prefer someone who is physically female from birth. If you want to call me a bigot then have at it. I've been on this forum long enough to see just how easily that word is thrown around by certain individuals. And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity.

Literal cissexism.

Well damn. I never really considered myself one but I hope at least that Trans people don't look down on me/judge me for it when it seems to me as widespread and ingrained in culture as it is.

Cissexism being so pervasive in society does not lessen the impact, why would it be excusable? Why would you want it to be?

 

[Petrie]

I don't think you know the proper definition of obtuse. I fully understand what you are saying. I am saying you are wrong. Nothing obtuse about that.

So you actually think a clitoris of an embryo developing into a penis is the same as surgery to take a fully developed penis and modify it into a vagina?

No reason to take you seriously going forward then.

 

[Jaffaboy]

BTW, that was me being sarcastic since bigot is apparently the word of the week in terms of this specific thread. When in doubt, use the word bigot if you disagree with the other person.

Yeah, the insults aren't helping anybody.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

This is bigoted, ignorant language. By the way, you seem horrifically unattractive, given your posts in this thread. No one's arguing the strawmen you keep throwing down.

How is it bigoted? Do these women not need surgery to eventually have the bodies of women? Isn't that where the term "Woman stuck in a man's body" comes from? The idea that a trans gendered person feels like they aren't the gender they identify as until their body matches? If I'm having sex with a transgendered womans vagina, wouldn't they in fact have needed surgery for me to get to that point in the first place?

I also really couldn't care less if you found me attractive. I don't even know what that has to do with the situation.

The person I'm replying to specifically stated that the surgery part isn't a hangup. Would you also not date someone who was born with an extra finger that was removed? Someone who had their appendix removed? What would you do in Mumei's hypothetical situation?

Someone having their appendix removed is a far cry different from someone switching their genitalia. No one's sexuality is based in the attraction of the appendix.

 

[RDreamer]

I enjoy salmon, fresh salmon to be exact. I don't like farm raised salmon because I don't like the environment in which these salmon are raised. They may taste close to being the same but having had the best salmon from the Pacific Northwest, I don't want to eat farm raised. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with farm raised, it's just not for me. I also prefer to eat organic fruits instead of non-organic. They may taste very similar and even if I had one and enjoyed it only to find out it wasn't organic, I'd then probably regret it.

No difference then with a trans. I may find a trans attractive but learning he or she was trans would cause me to lose interest because I prefer someone who is physically female from birth. If you want to call me a bigot then have at it. I've been on this forum long enough to see just how easily that word is thrown around by certain individuals. And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity.

Geeze, I think comparing people to the food you eat is horribly offensive...

 

[dubq]

No reason to take you seriously going forward then.

I'm kinda glad. Your obtuse personality is wearing on me.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

How is it bigoted? Do these women not need surgery to eventually have the bodies of women? Isn't that where the term "Woman stuck in a man's body" comes from? The idea that a trans gendered person feels like they aren't the gender they identify as until their body matches? If I'm having sex with a transgendered womans vagina, wouldn't they in fact have needed surgery for me to get to that point in the first place?

I also really couldn't care less if you found me attractive. I don't even know what that has to do with the situation.

You know nothing of transgender people or their situations. All of those presuppositions are incorrect stereotypes and generalizations, yet you bandy them about as if you have some authority. Cissexism at its finest.

Your posts seemed to center some mythical strawman demanding your attraction, and I was just having a difficult time conceiving how that could possibly be.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Geeze, I think comparing people to the food you eat is horribly offensive...

Uhh...

"And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity."

 

[DJ Crimson]

Uhh...

"And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity."

Yet you did...

 

[User 73706]

I agree with you and the poster you quoted. In this thread Ive been called a racist(or having racist attitudes) as well. Its just silly and stupid that people resort to ad hominem when they dislike your position.

The side opposing you gets frustrated not when they dislike your position, but when you're not open to real progression or discussion. Nobody likes posters that come in here, give their two cents, back it up purely with "that's just how I feel" and then get mad when we're asking you to explain and all you can respond with is "I mean, I'm not sexist or anything, that's just my opinion! Why are you guys making such a big deal out of this?"

It's a tragedy of the commons situation. People are making such a big deal out of it because there are hundreds of thousands of people responding to them in the same fashion every day. It's not fun having to hear "they aren't a real woman, but I mean, I respect them like a real woman" every day.

If by cordial you mean we spent about 5 pages or so determining if people were racist, sure.

Alright, bud. Here we go.

Example 1

You know what? Since I know you have vast sexual experience, let me ask you this. Purely out of curiosity, I have no intention to offend.

Has any of the dudes she had sex with in your open relationship ever noticed or commented on the fact that she might be trans?

Again, pure curiosity.

Not once that I know of, ever. No one that did not know has ever commented on it to me, and my girlfriend has said that it has happened maybe twice, not from them, but from random strangers just asking.

She doesn't tell guys, for fear of violence. Sorry if that seems immoral and wrong to not say anything, but it is what it is.

My opinion is tentatively changed then. I would date a post-op trans woman.

I don't consider it immoral or wrong not to tell people for one off sex. I find it disgusting that telling someone might result in violence.

Goddamnit GAF, why you always gotta make me change my opinions.

Example 2:

I'm not sure why it's contingent on the trans person to do that (especially with the risk of physical danger) instead of the other party to be up front and tell every prospective date "Sorry, I don't date trans people."

If they're worried about how people might judge them or react to that, well...that's pretty informative for this discussion on a number of levels, don't you think?

Right, but now we're getting into the nitty-gritty of semantics. If your partner's liberal and doesn't mind anything, what's an aspect of controversy? Social contract is also getting into unwritten rules and expectations, which is a completely different beast. If we're talking about airing things out, your specific standpoint can be just as easily countered by saying "the cisgender male didn't feel the need to put his cis history out in the open, so the transgender female didn't feel the need to put her trans history out in the open." Likewise, if the table is set in such a way that the transgender individual is absolutely obligated to reveal that they're transgender, isn't the other party just as obligated to reveal that they don't date transgender individuals?

This is fine. I think unfortunately it's going to be more of a burden for trans people because they're the ones with that information. For the person interested it could be presumputous to say out loud 'I don't date trans people'. That said, depending on how you weight the latter- it's probably not a big deal. But yeah, I think it's fair for someone to say they're not interested in trans as well. It's a contextual thing unfortunately.

Example 3:

Look I am with you in thinking the people who say this are shallow, and that they would find a woman of any race attractive if they allowed themselves to be open to dates more and such, but people are attracted to what they know they are attracted to.

IF they find a person of a certain race attractive, but their race is the deal breaker for non-aesthetic reasons (including how other people would perceive them dating, that they think it makes them culturally different due to genetic differences etc.) then that is racist.

If I know that I tend to sit next to black girls and not the asian girls when I'm looking to take someone out for a date, it doesn't mean I am racist. Technically, smally, whatever, but calling some a racist is a strong label people do not want to be associated with because that word is mostly used to call someone a disgusting human being.

I completely get where you're coming from, and I appreciate that you've made strides to clarify your point / stance on the whole thing. Thing is, it's absolutely possible to retain your current standpoints - what you find attractive in people - and possibly expand on those views by including race, but without it being needlessly racially-charged. What you're experiencing is normal and largely hinges on the demographics that surround us; the difference is that you can't make it about absolutes, and you're far from the only one who unintentionally does so.

It ultimately won't make major differences in this day and age with most people, but the ones that do care about the semantics pertaining to racial equality - such as myself - will appreciate the distinction. Rather than put all the emphasis on an absolute on something as strong as race, clarify your interests. "I'm a huge fan of Metallica, and where I live it has a way larger Samoan following than an African-American one, so it's a lot easier for me to connect with Samoan fans about Metallica on first dates and surface-level encounters." Obviously you don't have to be as wordy about it, but specifying something like that is critical in pointing that sort of stuff out. Now, if the actual view point was "I'm a huge fan of Metallica, and I'm exclusively trying to date Samoan women, regardless of whether or not they like Metallica," obviously that's extremely racially-charged. Racially-charged to the extent that the Metallica bits might as well not be in the sentence. I really doubt a majority of people defending themselves here are dating people specifically because of the attraction hinging entirely on race - you could probably count the people who put "is a Vietnamese man" at the top of their mandatory relationship requirements with the rest being gravy on two hands.

Just be forward and honest about your interests in terms of attraction. Obviously transgender-related opinions are an entirely different beast, but if you're hanging out with a group of minorities who stay pretty updated on race relations and you specify that your date demographics regarding race or nationality have more to do with related interests because of locale or culture, they probably aren't going to take massive offense. If you stereotype or rely highly on hypotheticals, that's one thing - "I've been trying to date eastern european women because I know they love to clean" is obviously a horrible thing to say - but if you refer to your personality and provide specific examples - "Yeah, a lot of the SoCal girls here have been really into Grindcore, but barely any of the Welsh girls I've talked to have been interested in it," and so on - it's going to be a lot more beneficial for all parties.

Bravo on this post.

I don't see why you replied to me with this because all of this I agree with haha.

If I were looking for a mate again, I would like a slightly chubby, slightly brown asian tomboy with an American accent. Awfully specific haha, you can't write Ruby into existence anyway so we don't have awfully specific criteria that have to be filled perfectly.

People will have preferences and most people fall into love with people outside of those preferences. Even when they find them after falling in love with someone not from their dreams, they still choose to be with the one they ended up with.

There is a lovely TED Talk and that we actually learn to love what we end up with, how a guy with really short memory was told he had to choose from a 2nd best and 3rd best from a collection lf pictures. This order of preference changed unknowingly to him as after he forgot, for some reason the 2nd best became his favourite out of them all (or something like that).

People who say they don't find black girls attractive, that's all fine and well, I mean they don't need to say so and I am convinced they could fall in love regardless, but when they are looking for what they like they are free to have preferences.

Although if people think Eastern European women like to clean etc. and date someone based on that sort of prejudice, that is petty.

Even if not all of us see eye to eye, there's clearly a modicum of progress being made here. A lot of it ultimately boils down to convenience, comfort and semantics - no one's going to change their outlook overnight - but people are willing to listen. If you actually bothered reading the thread, rather than locking in on a single word like "racist" and fighting tooth and nail to not have to explain how you feel because your feelings got hurt, you'd see that.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

You know nothing of transgender people or their situations. All of those presuppositions are incorrect stereotypes and generalizations, yet you bandy them about as if you have some authority. Cissexism at its finest.

Your posts seemed to center some mythical strawman demanding your attraction, and I was just having a difficult time conceiving how that could possibly be.

Actually I was asking questions for you to answer. I didn't bandy anything about. That's why there were question marks at the end of those sentences.

You're just so dead set on shitting on everyone you can't tell the difference at this point.

 

[esms]

Lack of understanding and social consensus. People generally fear things they don't know or understand. They also fear what others think of their actions especially if it's seen as out of the norm by public consensus. Awareness and education on this topic obviously aren't good enough in this day and age and this thread is evidence of that. Eradicating ignorance and changing attitudes about anything in society is not easy. Look at racism and sexism, issues that have existed for hundreds of years and even though attitudes are improving, it's very slowly.

Correct. Specifically with dating, though, there is a massive stigma among males about dating a trans person, pre-op or post-op. So, if someone were indeed dating a trans woman and they didn't know, then it was revealed that the person they were dating was trans, I'm going to assume all my college-age buddies would break up with this chick. They may have a real thing for this woman, but the fact that she is trans affects much more than just him in a relationship.

Sad, but unfortunately true.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Yet you did...

Not literally...it's the best analogy I could provide and then I stated I wasn't literally arguing the two are the same.

 

[KmA]

It must be such a horrible feeling being a trans person and trying to navigate the minefield that is dating cisgendered people.

 

[Petrie]

I'm kinda glad. Your obtuse personality is wearing on me.

That's fine. You're doing your position no favors being so ignorant to reality.

 

[DJ Crimson]

Not literally...it's the best analogy I could provide and then I stated I wasn't literally arguing the two are the same.

So the post was basically pointless then?

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Uhh...

"And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity."

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

I enjoy salmon, fresh salmon to be exact. I don't like farm raised salmon because I don't like the environment in which these salmon are raised. They may taste close to being the same but having had the best salmon from the Pacific Northwest, I don't want to eat farm raised. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with farm raised, it's just not for me. I also prefer to eat organic fruits instead of non-organic. They may taste very similar and even if I had one and enjoyed it only to find out it wasn't organic, I'd then probably regret it.

No difference then with a trans. I may find a trans attractive but learning he or she was trans would cause me to lose interest because I prefer someone who is physically female from birth. If you want to call me a bigot then have at it. I've been on this forum long enough to see just how easily that word is thrown around by certain individuals. And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity.

Actually I was asking questions for you to answer. I didn't bandy anything about. That's why there were question marks at the end of those sentences.

You're just so dead set on shitting on everyone you can't tell the difference at this point.

Am I a walking, talking free education box? There are plenty of free resources for education a google search away, it's privileged to demand people educate you about their culture.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Literal cissexism.



Cissexism being so pervasive in society does not lessen the impact, why would it be excusable? Why would you want it to be?

I would hope that being raised one way my whole life and being kept in a bubble in hyper catholic south America and then in an upper middle class suburban southern city in the US would make it seem like I'm at least trying. There's certain things I won't do but I'm willing to listen and respect, just not date. I want to remain in friendly relations that's all.

 

[collige]

Someone having their appendix removed is a far cry different from someone switching their genitalia. No one's sexuality is based in the attraction of the appendix.

Normally, sexual attraction is based on a combination of physical characteristics and peoples' personality/actions. You're saying you would reject a trans woman not on any of those bases, but because they had surgery. Hence, the appendix comments.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

And continue to ignore the end of my post. Good job.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

I would hope that being raised one way my whole life and being kept in a bubble in hyper catholic south America and then in an upper middle class suburban southern city in the US would make it seem like I'm at least trying. There's certain things I won't do but I'm willing to listen and respect, just not date.

Naw, dog. You're still a sexist and a transphobe. No one cares about your attempts to understand it better. I'll just spit in your face and call you a bigot.

Spoiler

/s (by me)

 

[Erin S Kittens]

And continue to ignore the end of my post. Good job.

Actually, that was me addressing the end of your post.

 

[Tesseract]

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

y tu, i'm not seeing a lot of right or wrong here. sexual orientation is designed to be a minefield, that's why everything is a fetish.

 

[Fink]

"Sex" and "gender" are synonyms. Gender has an alternative definition, but that isn't the only one.

You can't deny that perceived sex/gender and biological sex/gender are different. Because trans people who "pass" as their preferred gender are treated different by society than they would if they hadn't transitioned.

My trans friend may not fit your definition of male, but without you knowing that he is transgender you would still treat him as you would any man.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Normally, sexual attraction is based on a combination of physical characteristics and peoples' personality/actions. You're saying you would reject a trans woman not on any of those bases, but because they had surgery. Hence, the appendix comments.

Right, because the trans woman's surgery was to change the physical characteristics of the parts of the body I'm attracted to. The appendix comment makes no sense, because I'm not attracted to the appendix in the first place, so why would I care what surgery needed to be done to it and why would that factor into my attraction to them?