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[twobear]

I think there's two orthogonal arguments going on here and people get confused between the two. The first is that The Order doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly groundbreaking, and the second is that it doesn't seem to be doing it with any particular flourish or finesse.

I can forgive a game that doesn't try and do anything revolutionary if it does it well. I think that we can put something like Wolfenstein The New Order into this category. There's nothing particularly innovative about what the game is doing, it just does it with a certain charm, finesse, and high level of quality. The game is a lot of fun to play even though you've played it all before.

But the complaints we're getting about The Order aren't necessarily that it doesn't do anything new, but that what it does it doesn't do particularly well. There doesn't seem to be much charm or finesse and the mechanics feel clunky instead of well-executed. That for me is much more worrying than the fact that it doesn't reach for the stars with its gameplay ideas.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's the same demo. RAD, for whatever reason, continue to show the same demo at every event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEgSIcW1sy0

At this point I think this is their premiere vertical slice demo, at least when it comes to combat against humans. Wasn't the reason behind the delay was so that they could get the rest of the game up to snuff?

 

[rjc571]

Seems like the perfect game to watch on youtube... top-notch presentation, bland, boring gameplay.

 

[EBreda]

Opinions are more or less the same across the board.
Can't say I'm all that surprised. It never did impress me so far. Hope the sections we've been shown are not indicative of the final game, though I doubt that.

 

[Hades Hotgun]

There seems to be a sharp contrast between what internet commenters are looking for and what Sony and RAD want us to see.

They keep showing a series of marginally interactive scenes, we keep asking for gameplay, and they keep insisting its their, but they can't show it so let's watch more cutscenes.

For the surprising amount of apologists this game has, it doesn't seem likely that they are going to suddenly come up with something better than what they have shown for over a year. Also, every interview seems to reiterate their nongaming focus.

Sony is succeeding in spite of a lack of quality first party games. Their focus has clearly been on partnerships with outside devs, but it would be nice to see something good from in house. Uncharted and Tearaway seem like the best looking things coming.

 

[Teddified]

Opinions are more or less the same across the board.
Can't say I'm all that surprised. It never did impress me so far. Hope the sections we've been shown are not indicative of the final game, though I doubt that.

Wouldn't it be weirder if opinions were different since it's the same demo? That demo has to be more then a year old by now right?

 

[prwxv3]

Opinions are more or less the same across the board.
Can't say I'm all that surprised. It never did impress me so far. Hope the sections we've been shown are not indicative of the final game, though I doubt that.

Oh no they are not. There have been positive reactions of the demo.

 

[Glass Rebel]

For this game it's hard to see this at this point for sure, but how does people how have played their other games feel about the level and game mechanics design? If those have been solid in the past, it's possible to give them the benefit of the doubt for now until it's released and see whether we can just chalk this up to poor showings of demo sections. I feel they've nailed most of the surrounding aspects (audiovisual/world creation, etc) but if the game itself it wholly uncompelling I can't see a good reason to purchase this; however, I think there is still a possibility that they can bring a lot of good out of what they have now and I'm very hopefuly they can do so in the end.

I have only played and finished the first PSP God of War game they've made and didn't find it particularly compelling. Decent, sure, but nothing outstanding. I've heard the second one was way better though but I personally can't judge the game based on their past output.

 

[Sodding_Gamer]

To be fair I loved Heavy Rain and Beyond:Two Souls. Both lacking gameplay. I guess this game will have a marmite effect on people. You'll either love it or hate it. If people are interested in the setting of this, then just get Bloodborne lol.

 

[IcyEyes]

Opinions are more or less the same across the board.
Can't say I'm all that surprised. It never did impress me so far. Hope the sections we've been shown are not indicative of the final game, though I doubt that.

No, opinions are not the same all across the board and as usual, people are ready to bash something based on little or nothing.

 

[Rembrandt]

I cannot wait for the review thread. The main complaint has been the gameplay since they got their hands on it. I'm hoping it gets fixed before release because it looks great and the last trailer looked better, but I'm still cautious.

 

[Samus4145]

I posted this as a comment on the article but thought it'd be worth putting here too.


From the way he's described it, I don't think he was using the gun correctly. I watched a video recently where the person playing did the same as Marty, he thought the primary and secondary fire were unrelated. The weapon is a Thermite machine gun. It's primary fire shoots Thermite bullets which do little damage. You have to use the secondary to ignite the From the way he's described it, I don't think he was using the gun correctly. I watched a video recently where the person playing did the same as Marty, he thought the primary and secondary fire were unrelated. The weapon is a Thermite machine gun. It's primary fire shoots Thermite bullets which do little damage, you have to use the secondary to ignite the Thermite. This kills the enemies quickly and easily. When done properly it is very effective as a weapon.Thermite.

This. Playing through the E3 demo twice, there were many people that didn't realize this. Once you do, you were able to so some really cool things, like set the thermite on fire while still shooting, during it into a flamethrower.

 

[DNAbro]

I can't understand the hype for this cause every time time they show it, it looks incredibly boring to play. You know how some people complain that games are becoming too filmic and they practically play themselves? This is one of the few games where I agree with that.

 

[DieH@rd]

It's the same demo. RAD, for whatever reason, continue to show the same demo at every event.

RAD dev [Ru or Andrea I think] said long time ago that they don't want to spoil too much before unveil. Maybe they are really sticking to that plan.

 

[Loudninja]

E3 impressions from gaffers on the same demo.

Impressions:

like others said its the thermite gun section. that gun is ridiculously fun, and the damage really isn't indrect since to ignite the thermite, you have to hit the enemies with a for missile/bullet. the soft cover system is great similar to tlou but a little more stick so somewhere between tlou and uc. Its surreal when your playing it looks so incredible in person, definitely the most impressive game I've seen visually.

the voice acting seems good from the little there was and the gunplay feels and controls so great. was getting headshots during the pistol sequence with ease. i was concerned with how it would feel having watched since vids, it looked clumsy, but that wasnt the case at all.

there was some feature similar to deadeye in rdr or bullett time, but i didn't quite grasp it in the short time i got to try it seems like it could be good. overall i think this game will be outstanding.

Do showfloor impressions go here?

The game is definitely pretty cool. The shooting is solid, although the part I played isn't traditional shooting, as I will further divulge.

First, the showfloor demo is the same as that short video they shown a couple weeks back. I even asked them why did they show such a short video, and the guy said they were told to have that sort of length even thought they had way more to show.

Anyway, I'll only talk about the gun as the level I was playing was still pretty brief (I heard it took people 15mins to beat it even though it took me like 3 minutes). The gun was pretty damn cool. So you go and try to shoot the enemies, but it doesn't kill them. What the gun is supposed to be is like a molotov cocktail rifle. It fires rounds that creates a phosphorous cloud, and then you shoot a secondary fire to ignite it. So I spray the general area of the enemy, ignite it, then I continue shooting to make sure they completely burn to death.

I think what's drawing me into this game is all the fancy tech that seems futuristic, yet is Victorian style.

I'll post my impressions here as well.

First the good stuff:

The game is gorgeous. The image quality is pristine and the frame rate is rock solid. I never felt it dip once. There are moments during the game where I couldn't tell whether it was cut scene or gameplay. It was incredibly seamless.

The thermite gun. A really interesting concept and definitely cool to use. I'm sure plenty of people know that the primary shoots flammable gas and the secondary fire ignites it. It shoots in bursts and I thought it was a nice to touch that when you shoot the gas directly at the enemy, they choke on it. About halfway through the demo, I inadvertently created a trail of fire by shooting the primary fire after the flammable gas was ignited. Starting at the base of the flame, you could make it go across your screen by leading it further along. Definitely an awesome experience.

The feedback of the guns, in my opinion, was really well done. Granted, I was only able to use the pistol and the thermite gun, but the recoil after firing each shot was refreshing; each shot causes you to recollect your aim, which is a serious departure from no recoil shooters like COD and Titanfall.

The blackwater mechanic was pretty damn cool. As many of you probably saw, once activated, you just flick the right stick to automatically aim at the next enemy. The animation is just great to look at. It's like something straight from a western.

Now, the bad:

The scenario was doing no favors in selling the game. The demo was the same as the previews that were shown a while back. You're hiding behind cover, drag the guy into the house, go to the next alleyway and it ends there. The problem was that it suffers from being too much of a cover shooter. You sit behind cover and basically play shooting gallery until the next segment. In the first segment, I thought I'd try to snap out of cover and play more aggressively, but since the enemies were placed where you couldn't reach them, you're basically forced to stay behind cover.

Another gripe was the so called soft cover system. From the previews, I thought it would follow the cover systems like Tomb Raider and The Last of Us, but it was closer to Gears of War. Circle was to snap into cover and Cross was to exit out of it. You could also push back to exit, but I still thought it wasn't as intuitive as it could be. For a game that preaches seamless transitions, I thought the cover could've been much better.

All in all, my hype went down a bit. I'm still pretty excited for the lore and story of the game, but I really hope they add more variety to the gameplay bc the demo was shallow.

Here's a copy/paste of my impressions from my blog:

The Order 1886 wasn’t the first game I got my hands on at E3 this year, but it was definitely one of the titles I was anticipating checking out for myself the most. For those unfamiliar with the title, The Order 1886 is a third person shooter set in an alternate history London in which an ancient order of knights must protect the world from supernatural threats. The game is being developed by Ready at Dawn, exclusively for the PlayStation 4. So, how did it hold up? Read on below to f ind out.

After waiting in line for what felt like an eternity, I finally sat down in front of my 1080p demo station, and picked up the control. After pressing “X” to begin, I was shown a series of tutorial pages to quickly catch me up to speed with the game’s controls, and then I was off. The demo began with our knights of the Order holed up in a rundown part of the city, surrounded by Rebel fighters. The first thing that struck me was how stunningly detailed and realistic the graphics were. I’ve posted a screenshot above, because I just don’t think my words can properly convey how amazing this game looks in person, running on a PlayStation 4. The attention to detail in both the character models, facial expressions, and environment is jaw-dropping.

To be honest, I didn’t actually realize the game had started, and I was in control of Galahad, our protagonist, and leader of the Order. It wasn’t until I realized that he was just standing there, leaning against cover, doing nothing, that I rotated the camera and began shooting at the Rebel fighters with one of two available weapons in the demo. The main weapon on display in this segment was the Thermite Rifle. It’s primary fire, by itself, is relatively harmless bolts of compressed gas that disperse into a debilitating cloud upon impact. This will cause enemies to cough and sputter, but nothing more. It’s not until you combine the primary gas pellet, with the secondary incendiary shot that things get interesting (and more fun). The second shot will ignite the thermite gas, causing an explosion that engulfs enemies, killing them. The Thermite rifle also has applications beyond simply setting enemies on fire, as later on in the demo, Galahad used a thermite clip to blow up an obstacle blocking the team’s path.

The demo was short, and only had a brief scenario where players must help a wounded man get to safety while taking out Rebels. There wasn’t enough to really get a feel for the game as a whole, but I came away impressed. As mentioned before, visually, the game is incredible, and one of the most impressive games I saw on display. The controls felt wonderfully responsive, and moving between cover, and aiming and shooting were responsive. The Thermite gun was fun to use, and really just had me eager to try out the other weapons Ready at Dawn have crafted for us.

The only complaint I have with the gameplay is the pistol. Pistols are usually kind of a joke weapon, there to take up a weapon slot, and be a fallback for players who want to conserve the stronger weapons for later encounters. The problem I had with the pistol is that it was terribly inaccurate. Despite my crosshair lining up perfectly with a targets head, the bullets would often go astray, or hit a shoulder or a chest or stomach instead. I understand that a pistol in that era was more than likely not very accurate, and the Order isn’t Gears of War or Uncharted, but I find that gameplay must trump realism and stylistic choices no matter what. If the weapon isn’t very fun to use, it should be tweaked until it is. Fortunately, The Order won’t be coming for another 8 months, which gives Ready at Dawn plenty of time to tweak the pistol’s accuracy.

The Order is a third person shooter to the core, and is not breaking any new ground on a gameplay level, but what is there is incredibly polished already.

Overall, I found the game gorgeous, atmospheric, and fun to play. The demo was painfully short, a tease really (you could beat it in less than 10 minutes), and didn’t showcase any of the QTE segments, or supernatural enemies that are sure to mix up combat scenarios, so it’s really hard for me to form a real judgment on it. I walked away from The Order 1886 impressed, and looking forward to seeing more in the future.

 

[Rembrandt]

This. Playing through the E3 demo twice, there were many people that didn't realize this. Once you do, you were able to so some really cool things, like set the thermite on fire while still shooting, during it into a flamethrower.

You would think they would explain that better because people said they same thing the first time companies got their hands on the game.

 

[IcyEyes]

There seems to be a sharp contrast between what internet commenters are looking for and what Sony and RAD want us to see.

They keep showing a series of marginally interactive scenes, we keep asking for gameplay, and they keep insisting its their, but they can't show it so let's watch more cutscenes.

For the surprising amount of apologists this game has, it doesn't seem likely that they are going to suddenly come up with something better than what they have shown for over a year. Also, every interview seems to reiterate their nongaming focus.

Sony is succeeding in spite of a lack of quality first party games. Their focus has clearly been on partnerships with outside devs, but it would be nice to see something good from in house. Uncharted and Tearaway seem like the best looking things coming.

Pretty bold opinion my friend.

 

[Shabad]

But the complaints we're getting about The Order aren't necessarily that it doesn't do anything new, but that what it does it doesn't do particularly well.

Not really. What we are seeing in this article is The Order trying something new (thermite gun), and the journalist completely missing the point.

Don't people see this whole article is based on the journalist complete inability to understand the thermite gun ?

 

[lukeskymac]

I'll be giving this a miss. They really seem to have prioritised graphics over everything, seems to happen a lot with Sony games.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

At this point the OT title must be thermite related.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

At this point I think this is their premiere vertical slice demo, at least when it comes to combat against humans. Wasn't the reason behind the delay was so that they could get the rest of the game up to snuff?

Yeah, I think so.

RAD dev [Ru or Andrea I think] said long time ago that they don't want to spoil too much before unveil. Maybe they are really sticking to that plan.

Makes sense for such a story driven game, but I do think the demo is genuinely doing more harm than good with how much focus the not so great gunplay is getting.

Seems like it'd make more sense to either work on a new demo that has updated gunplay, etc that doesn't spoilt too much (maybe the same section with updated gunplay, etc) or simply have video demos at events until they get closer to release.

 

[Myggen]

It has always seemed like a very standard third person shooter, so no surprise. The setting seems interesting, but that's about it for me.

 

[Glass Rebel]

At this point the OT title must be thermite related.

The Order 1886 |OT| Thermite be a good game buried underneath these QTEs

 

[prwxv3]

The Order 1886 |OT| Thermite be a good game buried underneath these QTEs

The huge amount of QTE assumption has not been proven yet.

 

[twobear]

Not really. What we are seeing in this article is The Order trying something new (thermite gun), and the journalist completely missing the point.

Don't people see this whole article is based on the journalist complete inability to understand the thermite gun ?

You don't think that a person who plays games for a living not 'getting' how the central mechanics of your game works isn't potentially problematic in itself?

Based on previews this isn't the only person who's had difficulty with it.

For me, failure to understand central gameplay mechanics in this kind of game is potentially indicative of failures in gameplay design.

 

[EBreda]

No, opinions are not the same all across the board and as usual, people are ready to bash something based on little or nothing.

Nah, not bashing at all. Just seeing more or less the same opinions out of the demos we've been shown so far. Since I haven't tried it for myself, that's the only thing I have to go by.

If they have something much better in store, though, they should be demoing that instead. It's nice keeping stuff hidden till final release, but once your game starts raising some doubts you should reassure your audience, imo.

 

[Loudninja]

At this point the OT title must be thermite related.

Agreed!

 

[Pakoe]

I was wondering the same things after all the gameplay i've seen, everything looks great except for the shooting which looks kinda bland and unnecessary at times.

 

[SDCowboy]

Wait...did I read it wrong, or was the "gameplay" complaint based on the freakin guns?

 

[Jobbs]

Killzone had one of the best gunplay around. SO i dont know what are you talking about

killzone shadowfall has maybe the worst gunplay I've ever experienced in an FPS, from the sound to the feedback to the reactions of enemies when hit. It feels like waterguns.

 

[ViviOggi]

I think there's two orthogonal arguments going on here and people get confused between the two. The first is that The Order doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly groundbreaking, and the second is that it doesn't seem to be doing it with any particular flourish or finesse.

I can forgive a game that doesn't try and do anything revolutionary if it does it well. I think that we can put something like Wolfenstein The New Order into this category. There's nothing particularly innovative about what the game is doing, it just does it with a certain charm, finesse, and high level of quality. The game is a lot of fun to play even though you've played it all before.

But the complaints we're getting about The Order aren't necessarily that it doesn't do anything new, but that what it does it doesn't do particularly well. There doesn't seem to be much charm or finesse and the mechanics feel clunky instead of well-executed. That for me is much more worrying than the fact that it doesn't reach for the stars with its gameplay ideas.

Well put, that's exactly what's happening.

 

[nib95]

The Order 1886 |OT| Thermite be a good game buried underneath these QTEs

The QTE complaint is another silly one, based on all the gameplay and footage we've actually seen, in which there's actually very little QTE time.

 

[boeso]

I worry that with all this criticism, RAD will end up changing the game they intended to make to make others happy. Release the original vision not a game designed by committee.

 

[cackhyena]

So opposite of Gears. Amazing, top notch presentation and so so game play.

 

[twobear]

I worry that with all this criticism, RAD will end up changing the game they intended to make to make others happy. Release the original vision not a game designed by committee.

What if the design-by-committee game is actually better?

Valve make some of the best games in the business. Do you know how they do it? They get a lot of people in to play them to make sure that the mechanics are actually as fun as they thought they were when they were designing them. And if a lot of playtesters complain about a particular aspect of the game, they refine or remove it.

 

[prwxv3]

I worry that with all this criticism, RAD will end up changing the game they intended to make to make others happy. Release the original vision not a game designed by committee.

What gameplay improvements will help the game. The problem is is that for the most part you need to actually play the demo to give out relevant feedback to help the game. Complaints from seeing gameplay does not really help much (except for enemy reactions, and AI )

 

[Wasteman]

The fact he talks about the lack of environmental damage is worrying. The main selling point for me was realistic soft body particles but I bet that's gone out of the window now.

 

[Shabad]

You don't think that a person who plays games for a living not 'getting' how the central mechanics of your game works isn't potentially problematic in itself?

Based on previews this isn't the only person who's had difficulty with it.

For me, failure to understand central gameplay mechanics in this kind of game is potentially indicative of failures in gameplay design.

I personally believe that plenty of those game journalists are completely clueless. Many have proven my point countless times. But that's another problem.

The fact is this demo is probably poorly chosen, badly explained, ... that doesn't mean much on the rest of the game though. When you get to this point in this game, chances are you will know how to use that game because it has been explained to you.

Clearly, this is bad demo, but that doesn't make it a bad game.

 

[twobear]

Clearly, this is bad demo, but that doesn't make it a bad game.

It's the only demo they ever show. They clearly believe it to be indicative of the game at large. What reason, if the demo is bad, do we have to believe that they game itself will be anything but similarly bad? Just the pedigree of the developers?

 

[Glass Rebel]

The huge amount of QTE assumption has not been proven yet.

The QTE complaint is another silly one, based on all the gameplay and footage we've actually seen, in which there's actually very little QTE time.

brehs, relax, it was a joke D:

 

[cackhyena]

I personally believe that plenty of those game journalists are completely clueless. Many have proven my point countless times. But that's another problem.

The fact is this demo is probably poorly chosen, badly explained, ... that doesn't mean much on the rest of the game though. When you get to this point in this game, chances are you will know how to use that game because it has been explained to you.

Clearly, this is bad demo, but that doesn't make it a bad game.

I've said it before, that's on the devs to show up with a shitty demo if it's not representative of the game on the whole. If they aren't getting the one thing you'll be doing most down pat, they're fucked.

Gorgeous game but I have absolutely no interest in ever touching this. I play games for fun, not for pretending they are as atmospheric and absorbing as movies with the occasional button press.

Yup.

 

[RadarScope1]

The divide usually comes from people either having played a good FPS or not. Much like Killzone it appears to be subpar compared to similar games, and dull as dishwater to boot, but covered up by nice visuals. Perhaps the same could be said of other Sony games with mediocre design. I'm sure the writing will be equally bad. It seems to work for them though since there is a fairly large contingent of people who will fall over themselves to buy something that has a nice coat of paint.

Hmm. I'm starting to feel this way myself. Shadow Fall was my first KZ and it felt sub par. I'm in the middle of Second Son and it feels way below the gameplay/feel of the PS3 games. For all that I loved about Tearaway, gameplay was not a strength. Never played a David Cage game but they seem even worse.

Not trying to sound alarmist but I'm kind of worried about Sony's first-party direction. The presentation is second to none but once we move past the first year of the PS4's life cycle that alone is not going to cut it.

I guess if anything it just goes to show how hard it is to pair great gameplay with top notch visuals, like in TLOU.

 

[March of the Crabs]

Gorgeous game but I have absolutely no interest in ever touching this. I play games for fun, not for pretending they are as atmospheric and absorbing as movies with the occasional button press.

 

[prwxv3]

Some people liked the demo so I would not call it bad for some people playing it. For publicity purposes it's a bad demo.

 

[Sweep14]

RAD dev [Ru or Andrea I think] said long time ago that they don't want to spoil too much before unveil. Maybe they are really sticking to that plan.

And I'm perfectly fine with that.
Too bad for the concern specialists that want the game to be completely revealed and therefore spoiled, before decidig to purchase or not...

 

[boeso]

What if the design-by-committee game is actually better?

Valve make some of the best games in the business. Do you know how they do it? They get a lot of people in to play them to make sure that the mechanics are actually as fun as they thought they were when they were designing them. And if a lot of playtesters complain about a particular aspect of the game, they refine or remove it.

Yeah I agree. I'm talking more specifically about the feedback they get from websites who have only had a 10 minute demo to base all their feedback on. A big site like IGN writing criticisms is going to spread and reach a lot of the fan base, putting a lot of pressure on the design team to make them happy and address their concerns. The kind of changes IGN are hinting at are pretty huge, but I'm all for the small tweaks and improvements.

What gameplay improvements will help the game. The problem is is that for the most part you need to actually play the demo to give out relevant feedback to help the game. Complaints from seeing gameplay does not really help much (except for enemy reactions, and AI )

The fact its also a tiny snippet of gameplay makes it pretty hard to give an overall comment on the feel of the game too, like how it all flows together.

 

[prwxv3]

The Sony first party gameplay design concern is fucking hilarious.

 

[SneakyStephan]

No, opinions are not the same all across the board and as usual, people are ready to bash something based on little or nothing.

Actually in this thread it seems more like people are ready to get angry at anyone criticising it (especially people who played it) while having as 'little' to go off as those people.

Hype fueled peer pressure in full force, one of the ugly sides of gaf.

 

[nullpoynter]

I don't care if the gameplay isn't top notch. I need games for my PS4 so bad.

There are plenty of great games out for the PS4 now. My PS4 has been getting a workout as of late.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

Gorgeous game but I have absolutely no interest in ever touching this. I play games for fun, not for pretending they are as atmospheric and absorbing as movies with the occasional button press.

But what about that cinematic experience?? Press triangle to escape from the monster, square 10 times to lift the the debris over your body... Forget the gameplay!