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[ThoseDeafMutes]

Don't forget TLoU. I mean....1 1/2 hours of cut-scenes VS roughly 15 hours overall completion time (on average). Clearly the game is "light" on gameplay!

/s

Spoiler

Waits for inevitable avatar quote.

Don't take this as me agreeing with one position here, but a lot of TLoU's gameplay time is definitely in service of the story. Hours of the game are spent wandering slowly through clearly defined "explore this place" segments picking up items that the game highlights for you. Mainly to give Joel and Ellie time to bond and exposit. Compared to something like Metal Gear Solid, which is famous for having story overload, the main difference is that TLoU does a much better job of integrating that sort of stuff and not taking away player control of the character (although often they disable the "run", don't let you shoot etc during important story moments that technically take place "in game").

What I mean by this is that saying TLoU is only 1 hour of cutscenes to 12 hours of gameplay is misleading. I'd say it's more like 25% story 75% gameplay.

 

[travisbickle]

That's what i get when i read the developer's own words:



So, what if there WAS "a way around it"?

Literally the three words after are "we love games". Why don't we consider he used a clumsy phrase that can be misinterpreted, and instead he meant gameplay is fundamental to making games.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

sorry, being stupid.

 

[BajiBoxer]

The developer still comes off like someone who'd rather make movies than games. That he'd rather work in hollywood but he is stuck in a game company. That gameplay for him is a chore, an annoying necessity that gets in the way, only because his product is labelled as a "game" and if he had the choice, he would rather not include at all.

And you kind of prove his point with this nonsense.

 

[Yudoken]

I've listened to some (german) podcasts and most of them mentioned 'The order' (besides Until dawn and No man's sky) presentation and gameplay as a joke at very least.
They showed them the consequences of quick time events (death) and that almost on every qte and couldn't stop talking about Nicola Tesla and how amazing he is.
The game itself was not important and I've got a really bad feeling about this game.
I've expecting a 'Beyond two souls' X 'Resistance' game.

 

[Summer Haze]

Don't take this as me agreeing with one position here, but a lot of TLoU's gameplay time is definitely in service of the story. Hours of the game are spent wandering slowly through clearly defined "explore this place" segments picking up items that the game highlights for you. Mainly to give Joel and Ellie time to bond and exposit. Compared to something like Metal Gear Solid, which is famous for having story overload, the main difference is that TLoU does a much better job of integrating that sort of stuff and not taking away player control of the character (although often they disable the "run", don't let you shoot etc during important story moments that technically take place "in game").

What I mean by this is that saying TLoU is only 1 hour of cutscenes to 12 hours of gameplay is misleading. I'd say it's more like 25% story 75% gameplay.

Agreed. I was just using what I said as an example of why saying it's "light" on gameplay is false. Lighter compared to some games? Sure, but in no way is TLoU "light" on gameplay.

 

[nkarafo]

Literally the three words after are "we love games". Why don't we consider he used a clumsy phrase that can be misinterpreted, and instead he meant gameplay is fundamental to making games.

The "we love games" part was like, "well, you know, we love games like the next guy.... but we'd rather make movies".

This is how it looks to me. Maybe i'm the only one. Or maybe it's because i'm not looking forward to this game as most here.

Caught with your pants down here, that full quote doesn't read how you gave it to us.

I don't remember me giving anything to you.

 

[DryvBy]

I've been playing a lot of last of us. Or halo. Even on easy they hit me if i'm that close to them. .

It's pretty easy to explain. The enemies have guns that are old, their barrels are crooked, therefore the accuracy is way off.

Or a better explanation: filmic. How many times has Bruce Willis been shot at, and how many bullets have hit him?

 

[ron_bato]

My guess was that he was using the thermite rifle wrong. It was the same section as the E3 and Gamescom demo, and he referred to the thermite rifle as a "Machine gun that fired explosive flares". He was complaining because he wasn't using the gun correctly.

Here was the paragraph about the thermite rifle, which he used like a machine gun:

My main weapon in the demo was a machine gun that also fired off explosive-flares. I loved the small detail of how the flare would corkscrew through the air on its way to my target, but igniting the explosive never gave me the desired effect. Blasts right on top of enemies didn’t seem to faze them, and certain explosions would cause structural damage while others seemed to just be bursts of light. So I instead decided to focus on picking them off with my rifle. The problem here was that the bullets spread out in such a wide area so quickly, that I could burst-fire an entire clip at an enemy across a street and have every single bullet miss its target.

 

[Teddified]

What surprises me is the possiblity they've just been showing the same Demo over and over so we get the same complaints all the time. It makes me wonder if they just don't have a budget or time for another demo, or if they're just not used to doing this sort of marketing.

That's what i'm saying. Instead they do story first and then slapping on gameplay elements.

Maybe slapping on is too strong of a term. I mean focus on one thing like story, then focus on the next thing like combat while taking into account the story/lore, while possibly tweaking things in the story to make sense.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

The developer still comes off like someone who'd rather make movies than games. That he'd rather work in hollywood but he is stuck in a game company. That gameplay for him is a chore, an annoying necessity that gets in the way, only because his product is labelled as a "game" and if he had the choice, he would rather not include at all.

We can all wave our hands and say 'well, to me that developer sounds like he hates videogames and is just making this game to spite me', and such, but most of us can understand what words and sentences actually mean without making stuff up to suit our (already failed) argument.

 

[David___]

The "we love games" part was like, "well, you know, we love games like the next guy.... but we'd rather make movies".

This is how it looks to me. Maybe i'm the only one. Or maybe it's because i'm not looking forward to this game as most here.

We're at new levels of reaching here.

 

[test_account]

Aka a game that puts atmosphere and graphical prowess over fun.

Something I have no desire to play since fun is the whole reason I play games.

Just wondering, why do you think other people play games?

 

[manueldelalas]

I'll chime in into the gameplay discussion.

In my opinion, it has been a Sony studios philosophy that story comes first and gameplay later (for the big studios); there's not two ways around it. This doesn't mean that the gameplay is bad or shallow; and Sony does release a ton of small games that revolve around gameplay.

This doesn't mean that the gameplay of the big studio Sony games is bad, not at all; but we can all agree that the gameplay is, well... there. Uncharted, TLoU, Killzone, Resistance, GOW; or if we go back in time, Jak, Ratchet, Dragoon, Syphon Filter, etc, none of those games provided significant new gameplay concepts; rather they took what other games had done (by admission of developers) and refined it to do some damn fine games.

Sure, Sony still does smaller projects like Ape Escape, Loco Roco, PS camera games, that do revolve around new gameplay concepts, and that's awesome, but I'm talking here about the big games philosophy.

So yeah, I don't expect The Order to be something to write about in the gameplay department, other than it will play really really well (which is good).

In comparison, Nintendo's philosophy is gameplay first, story later; so you'll see new Zelda games with innovative gameplay all the time, like sytlus Zelda, Wiimote/Wiimote+ Zelda, First Person Metroid (was a feat at the time), 4 player 2D Mario, 4 player 3D Mario, tilt based Mario Kart, etc.

So, in contrast, Nintendo games have great or at least very innovative gameplay, but the story, everyone will agree is, well... there.

There's nothing wrong with either IMO, Sony does some terrific games; but IMO the problem is that 10 years down the line, Sony games tend to be forgotten.

 

[Summer Haze]

The "we love games" part was like, "well, you know, we love games like the next guy.... but we'd rather make movies".

This is how it looks to me. Maybe i'm the only one. Or maybe it's because i'm not looking forward to this game as most here.

I feel like we're reading different quotes.

 

[GIANKRATOS]

Based on the same old 5 min demo? Yeah, ok.

No visual feedback? What?

 

[travisbickle]

The "we love games" part was like, "well, you know, we love games like the next guy.... but we'd rather make movies".

This is how it looks to me. Maybe i'm the only one.

No, the story is a mechanic within a game. Honestly, if you can give me one gameplay mechanic that does not require a story to explain it's function I would like to hear it?

I'll give you some help, any game with a theme has a story.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

Just wondering, why do you think other people play games?

Pain and pleasure are equal

\
"I have such shites to show you"

No, the story is a mechanic within a game. Honestly, if you can give me one gameplay mechanic that does not require a story to explain it's function I would like to hear it?

 

[nkarafo]

I feel like we're reading different quotes.

Why is it so hard to understand that some people may interpret something differently than you? From all the stuff that i have seen about this game and the things that have been said, that's what i, PERSONALLY, feel.

 

[BajiBoxer]

I'm less concerned about the game and more concerned with some people's inability to understand what is a pretty simple article.

I'm still on the fence on this thing. Looks great, but just having a cover mechanic doesn't suddenly make a game like Gears of War. Seems to be missing a lot of what I enjoy about shooters based on impressions so far.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Everything I've seen so far pointed into this direction. They have some neat ideas for mechanics but don't seem to know how to design compelling levels to complement them. The Thermite Rifle is a very cool idea but they haven't done a great job at showing its potential in actual situations. Maybe it's harsh to judge the game on limited footage but that's what the developer and/or publisher chose to show.

The game might still be fun, who knows. I don't think Uncharted has particularly great weapons but the open and vertical level-design still make some combat encounters pretty cool. From a gameplay standpoint, The Order seems to be a reverse Uncharted, so to speak.

 

[GuessWho]

This game going to be so dul and we all know it.

 

[KOHIPEET]

Doesn't sound like the gameplay is fundamentally broken or anything, more like the weapons and camera need some polishing up, hopefully 6 months is enough time to do that.

This. Firing feedback needs some tweaking that's all.

 

[Summer Haze]

Why is it so hard to understand that some people may interpret something differently than you? From all the stuff that i have seen about this game and the things that have been said, that's what i, PERSONALLY, feel.

That's cool, but I'm free to post my reactions to your comments and while I feel like you're wrong. You can always add me to your ignore list if you don't want to see my comments :/

 

[Jisgsaw]

So everything is great Except what makes a game.... a game...

Welcome to the modern gaming world.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

sorry, again. I should just avoid the order threads.

 

[Hyun Sai]

IGN can't win, whether they hype games or not ah ah ah.

 

[Bedameister]

I'm also concerned about this game. At the reveal I was like ok this could be coo.. But anything that was shown after didn't really make me want to have it.

 

[test_account]

Pain and pleasure are equal

Hehe

 

[nkarafo]

You gave an out of context quote, gave your reading of it, refused to provide the full in-context quote and carried on with your crazy reading of it by adding even more stuff that isn't there.

You can have your personal opinion, but my personal opinion was that your original post of 'that quote' was merely a driveby troll and you're tying yourself in knots to get out of it. It's even more obvious now you've resorted to 'It's just my opinion, man!' because you have nowhere else to go but derper.

Allrighty then, i'll bite.

Here's the full quote:

"I think story and visuals are very high. Gameplay is something that... it's a game, we make games, we can't get around it. We love games, but we also love telling stories, so I think story is always going to be at the top because it's what we start with. It's at the top of the pyramid and everything else supports that. I think it'd be more challenging to make a game for the gameplay's sake, then try to make a story that fits in there."

I still stand by my original comments. Can you show me the parts of this quote that prove me wrong and why?

 

[wowlace]

Game looks neat. Gameplay looks to be pushing no boundaries but nether does something like Destiny, Driveclub, or any other of the big hyped up future releases. If i is fun to play, it will be great.

 

[Shabad]

Weeeell none of those games do much original gameplay-wise. But that's just the territory that comes with massive AAA games in general and obviously isn't just a Sony thing.

TBH I find it surprising when people expect massively expensive AAA games to also completely revolutionize gameplay, it just isn't practical business-wise. And besides most AAA games find their strength in refinement and/or smart amalgamation of existing gameplay ideas.

Gravity Rush, Tearaway, Demon Souls, Ico & Shadow of the Colossus, ... I can think of many big Sony games that had a lot of important gameplay innovations, that shaped many others games.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Gravity Rush, Tearaway, Demon Souls, Ico & Shadow of the Colossus, ... I can think of many big Sony games that had a lot of important gameplay innovations, that shaped many others games.

All of those are niche games targeted at a specific audience.

 

[David___]

Allrighty then, i'll bite.

Here's the full quote:



I still stand by my original comments. Can you show me the parts of this quote that prove me wrong and why?

"I think story and visuals are very high. Gameplay is something that... it's a game, we make games, we can't get around it. We love games, but we also love telling stories, so I think story is always going to be at the top because it's what we start with. It's at the top of the pyramid and everything else supports that. I think it'd be more challenging to make a game for the gameplay's sake, then try to make a story that fits in there."

 

[travisbickle]

Thank you, the game that Kyle Bosman complained about for lack of story. I think people have an irrational fear of stories in games when they essentially bind mechanics to player motivation.

I would play Pixel Colors all day, but most people here would complain if all games used the raw mechanic of clicking squares to change colour to match to the surrounding squares.

 

[nkarafo]

"I think story and visuals are very high. Gameplay is something that... it's a game, we make games, we can't get around it. We love games, but we also love telling stories, so I think story is always going to be at the top because it's what we start with. It's at the top of the pyramid and everything else supports that. I think it'd be more challenging to make a game for the gameplay's sake, then try to make a story that fits in there."

That's your explanation? Underlining the rest of the quote? Thank you very much, i guess you have no argument here at all.

Also, can you explain the part that you, somehow, forgot to underline?

 

[cheezcake]

Gravity Rush, Tearaway, Demon Souls, Ico & Shadow of the Colossus, ... I can think of many big Sony games that had a lot of important gameplay innovations, that shaped many others games.

Talking about mass AAA, I don't think anyone can deny that Sony first party in general has output some incredibly original and innovative games but they tend to be from their smaller studios.

 

[David___]

That's your explanation? Underlining the rest of the quote? Thank you very much, i guess you have no argument here at all.

Like I said before, they come up with a story to use as a base and make gameplay that goes with the story. You aren't going to have gameplay like Bulletstorm when your story is about the realities of war, for example.

Also, can you explain the part that you, somehow, forgot to underline?

"No shit its going to have gameplay, its a game after all."

 

[twobear]

So basically some people who've played it are reflecting the exact same concerns as people who haven't? That's a little worrying to be perfectly honest.

 

[Summer Haze]

That's your explanation? Underlining the rest of the quote? Thank you very much, i guess you have no argument here at all.

Also, can you explain the part that you, somehow, forgot to underline?

You seem to think that them saying "we can't get around it" is equal to saying "we wish we could get around it". I think some people in here, including myself, see it as them saying they acknowledge that The Order is a game, and a game needs gameplay (duh), but for them, it's used to compliment other aspects of the game, rather than be the main focus.

Like I said before, they come up with a story to use as a base and make gameplay that goes with the story. You aren't going to have gameplay like Bulletstorm when your story is about the realities of war, for example.

"No shit its going to have gameplay, its a game after all."

Hahaha, exactly.

 

[BokehKing]

Killzone had one of the best gunplay around. SO i dont know what are you talking about

Whoa whoa, that is no fact, that is a huge opinion on your part. Killzone the series is nothing more than a pretty tech demo. I can't believe they tried making it a selling point at launch.

 

[gift of 100 gab]

Everything I've seen so far pointed into this direction. They have some neat ideas for mechanics but don't seem to know how to design compelling levels to complement them. The Thermite Rifle is a very cool idea but they haven't done a great job at showing its potential in actual situations. Maybe it's harsh to judge the game on limited footage but that's what the developer and/or publisher chose to show.

The game might still be fun, who knows. I don't think Uncharted has particularly great weapons but the open and vertical level-design still make some combat encounters pretty cool. From a gameplay standpoint, The Order seems to be a reverse Uncharted, so to speak.

For this game it's hard to see this at this point for sure, but how does people how have played their other games feel about the level and game mechanics design? If those have been solid in the past, it's possible to give them the benefit of the doubt for now until it's released and see whether we can just chalk this up to poor showings of demo sections. I feel they've nailed most of the surrounding aspects (audiovisual/world creation, etc) but if the game itself it wholly uncompelling I can't see a good reason to purchase this; however, I think there is still a possibility that they can bring a lot of good out of what they have now and I'm very hopefuly they can do so in the end.

 

[Loudninja]

Its a preview of the same demo we seen for months and months now, that was already previewed.

 

[AusRoachman]

Remember all the crap max Payne 3 got because of it's annoying cutscenes ? I see the same happening here, only max Payne had amazing gunplay to back it up. Time will tell if this can pull of the amazing gunplay of max.

Max Payne 3 was in my top 5 last gen so if they can pull it off ill buy it in a heartbeat.

 

[Markitron]

Whoa whoa, that is no fact, that is a huge opinion on your part. Killzone the series is nothing more than a pretty tech demo. I can't believe they tried making it a selling point at launch.

It's an opinion that many people share, Killzone 2 is anything but a tech demo. The campaign was fantastic and it had one of the best multiplayer modes I have ever played

 

[nkarafo]

Like I said before, they come up with a story to use as a base and make gameplay that goes with the story. You aren't going to have gameplay like Bulletstorm when your story is about the realities of war, for example.

Sure. But what gameplay elements compliment a story as deep as this? A generic cover based shooter (that looks like it is so far)? Why not an adventure? An RPG? Anything else than a generic cover based shooter? Maybe because they don't care that much about it? So they do it this way because it's easier than thinking about new ways to complement the story? Also, its better for the lowest common denominator, so that's all they need?

"No shit its going to have gameplay, its a game after all."

If it wasn't for the first few lines in his quote, i wouldn't have a case here at all. We wouldn't discuss this. But everything he said after that seemed to me like some kind of damage control.

You seem to think that them saying "we can't get around it" is equal to saying "we wish we could get around it". I think some people in here, including myself, see it as them saying they acknowledge that The Order is a game, and a game needs gameplay (duh), but for them, it's used to compliment other aspects of the game, rather than be the main focus.

Yes but does it?

Does it compliment those other aspects? From what you seen so far, it feels to you that it matters for them if gameplay really compliments their story? I know the game isn't out yet but lets discuss from what we've seen so far.

Also, English is not my native language, i have some trouble trying to express my exact thoughts.

 

[tuna_love]

Remember all the crap max Payne 3 got because of it's annoying cutscenes ? I see the same happening here, only max Payne had amazing gunplay to back it up. Time will tell if this can pull of the amazing gunplay of max.

Max Payne 3 was in my top 5 last gen so if they can pull it off ill buy it in a heartbeat.

That's what I'm hoping.

 

[Sweep14]

I'm less concerned about the game and more concerned with some people's inability to understand what is a pretty simple article.

I'm still on the fence on this thing. Looks great, but just having a cover mechanic doesn't suddenly make a game like Gears of War. Seems to be missing a lot of what I enjoy about shooters based on impressions so far.

And what do you enjoy about shooters precisely ?

 

[Bxbombers3]

Twist? I just let the quote speak for itself, people can interpret the meaning for themselves, they don't need me to do it for them.

It's pretty self explanatory

 

[Duxxy3]

Remember all the crap max Payne 3 got because of it's annoying cutscenes ? I see the same happening here, only max Payne had amazing gunplay to back it up. Time will tell if this can pull of the amazing gunplay of max.

Max Payne 3 was in my top 5 last gen so if they can pull it off ill buy it in a heartbeat.

I stopped playing MP3 after a couple hours because the non-skippable, headache-inducing, cutscenes were driving me crazy.