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[YOU PC BRO?!]

Ryan has been way off base on this from the offset. Good on him publicly admitting he was wrong.

It's obvious as CPU utilisation generally doesn't scale linearly along with GPU power. We see this all the time in game benchmarks on PC where CPU utilisation barely changes as GPU utilisation increases.

System IO would also be an issue if a game engine is designed with a minimum throughput in mind (imagine the quick portal transitions from Ratchet and Clank PS5 running on PS4 for example - they would probably take 10 - 20 seconds each and that is being generous).

RAM is not a problem as long as the old system has a reasonable amount, asset quality could be culled in line with the capabilities of the system.

GPU is not an issue though next gen hardware based features would have to be omitted on the base hardware.

Given the above, CPU and sytem IO is almost impossible to scale back if the game engine is designed to take full advantage. Notice I said almost as it would be possible with a lot of work to cut enough of a next gen feature rich game to get some version of it to run on the prior gen machine. We have already seen very demanding games like Doom and Witcher 3 running on Switch for example. The issue however is the cost and development overhead to such an undertaking. I imagine most game studios just wouldn't be able to achieve this given the stringent time budgets at play. Much easier for them to design the game with the previous gen machine in mind and scale up. This then robs us all of the true next gen bump we would expect given the sizeable bill of entry into the next gen space.

Additionally. The pending announcement of the Series S is safe from my above critique. As it is rumoured to be equipped with the same CPU, same SSD, enough RAM (adjusting for adjusted asset quality reduction) and the same feature set supporting GPU it wouldn't affect things in my eyes other than a little dev time in producing a scaled back performance profile for the game.

 

[hyperbertha]

Yes and no.
Making two versions of the game does not mean twice the budget.
The majority of the cost in an open world game is the cost of developing the assets and the assets can, if need to, be atuomatically scaled down to a smaller version with smaller textures, smaller resolution and fewer polygons.
This process can be done almost entirely with automated tools.
For sure, it might not look as good as handcrafted assets but it might be "good enough" expecially if the process does not require you pay a big team a salary.

So the cost of doing one version of the game for the Bib Boy is

Cost(Big Boy) := Cost(Assets) + Cost(Big Boy Code)

The cost to develop a second version for Tiny Boy is then essentially
Cost(Tiny Boy) := Cost(Tiny Boy Code)
Since TinyBoy does not need new assets. It can use the already paid for assets from BigBoy, automatically shrunken and scaled down.


Third party devs already do this for their multiplats. They develop all the assets once and then reuse these assets for all the targets.
That makes sense since the assets are the vastly most expensive part of the game. Then each additional platform they target will only cost a fractional increment of the cost of the first target.

Why cant 343 do what every thirdparty dev does all the time?

I was mainly referring to the programming and memory part. When you develop a game first for the series X, making sure all that scope runs on the xbox one is going to be a development nightmare, and scaling down any of that scope in case it doesn't run on the xone is also going to take time and money. Cross gen games are different in that they are usually built with the older gen first, but any game that looks to take advantage of next gen hardware

Not necessarily. It really depends on what your goals are. I can't speak for every developer as I've only spoken to ones I've come in contact with but when it comes to multiplatform you based it on features.

If the features can be implemented without extra work you are good. If not you either cut the feature or have to add into the budget to make it work on that platform.

If you want parity between games then you have to budget accordingly to get features to work on both platforms. Your return on the platform that will take more work has to have a ROI for the extra money you need to put into it. If it doesn't you either drop the platform or the feature.

Stuff like Shadow of Mordor did this. They cut features to make it work. Same with FH2.

I don;t think its going to be anywhere near that simple when you are talking about a game that looks to take full advantage of next gen hardware. Cross gen games being developed with xbox one is a different story. Just scale the assets up. But a huge scoped game in order to run on older hardware is going to take a LOT of troubleshooting and optimization, and when it comes to features that just don't work, scaling them back to an acceptable level is going to take even more time and money.

 

[whitesugar]

Not like Sony is saying/doing much at the moment, must be bored.

not doing much is far preferable to everything you're doing being a complete dumpster fire

 

[GymWolf]

Ign making mistakes is almost as usual as the sun coming out in the morning...

Why do we open topics for these morons??

 

[longdi]

Maybe Limiting factor here is xbox division heads who don't know what to do or what they want and fumble upon themselves non stop and have no clear vision for the brand other than gamepass??

Imo they were to lax on 343i, sometimes when you deal with your star players, it depends on how self discipline they are.

Besides we keep having unfounded rumors.

 

[Tulipanzo]

This is the same guy who said 720p and 1080p can't be told apart.

It's great how fanboys are given infinite chances to "change their mind" after spreading bullshit for years.

 

[Boss Mog]

We all make mistakes. Having high character will allow you to admit them.

True, but still a lot of us who aren't executive editors in gaming media knew this so it's pretty sad that these people, who are supposed to be informing us about gaming, can still get be so wrong so often.

 

[Elcid]

In other news, “journalist” is shocked to discover water is wet.

 

[Nikana]

I was mainly referring to the programming and memory part. When you develop a game first for the series X, making sure all that scope runs on the xbox one is going to be a development nightmare, and scaling down any of that scope in case it doesn't run on the xone is also going to take time and money. Cross gen games are different in that they are usually built with the older gen first, but any game that looks to take advantage of next gen hardware


I don;t think its going to be anywhere near that simple when you are talking about a game that looks to take full advantage of next gen hardware. Cross gen games being developed with xbox one is a different story. Just scale the assets up. But a huge scoped game in order to run on older hardware is going to take a LOT of troubleshooting and optimization, and when it comes to features that just don't work, scaling them back to an acceptable level is going to take even more time and money.

I didn't say it wouldn't take more work in any capacity or would be simple.

You still have have to budget accordingly with a proper ROI. If the amount of work to get features running on older hardware outweighs the return then you either drop the features or drop the platform. All of that is budgeted for before a project starts and is based on the platform ROI.

Again, can only speak to the developers I have talked to but I have never had one say that they cut a budget in half to ensure that two platforms got the work done needed. They instead focus on the platform of choice and then asses at a later time if adding another platform is viable now that they have a better outlook of the project.

This is why you see a lot of smaller developers take timed exclusive deals. No only do they get a kickback for being a quote exclusive it allows them to focus on one platform at a time and get features fully implemented with a much lower risk of having a bad ROI.

 

[TTOOLL]

Ryan has been way off base on this from the offset. Good on him publicly admitting he was wrong.

It's obvious as CPU utilisation generally doesn't scale linearly along with GPU power. We see this all the time in game benchmarks on PC where CPU utilisation barely changes as GPU utilisation increases.

System IO would also be an issue if a game engine is designed with a minimum throughput in mind (imagine the quick portal transitions from Ratchet and Clank PS5 running on PS4 for example - they would probably take 10 - 20 seconds each and that is being generous).

RAM is not a problem as long as the old system has a reasonable amount, asset quality could be culled in line with the capabilities of the system.

GPU is not an issue though next gen hardware based features would have to be omitted on the base hardware.

Given the above, CPU and sytem IO is almost impossible to scale back if the game engine is designed to take full advantage. Notice I said almost as it would be possible with a lot of work to cut enough of a next gen feature rich game to get some version of it to run on the prior gen machine. We have already seen very demanding games like Doom and Witcher 3 running on Switch for example. The issue however is the cost and development overhead to such an undertaking. I imagine most game studios just wouldn't be able to achieve this given the stringent time budgets at play. Much easier for them to design the game with the previous gen machine in mind and scale up. This then robs us all of the true next gen bump we would expect given the sizeable bill of entry into the next gen space.

Additionally. The pending announcement of the Series S is safe from my above critique. As it is rumoured to be equipped with the same CPU, same SSD, enough RAM (adjusting for adjusted asset quality reduction) and the same feature set supporting GPU it wouldn't affect things in my eyes other than a little dev time in producing a scaled back performance profile for the game.

I agree, but the issue with the series S might be the price. If it's to high compared to XBSX and PS5 it will probably fail. If it's low enough to attract people it may outsell the series X.
If this happens we would have series S x PS5, which is not fair.

Let's see what's gonna happen. It is a bold/dumb move to release 2 consoles and still support old gen.

 

[jimbojim]

Titanfall and ROTR were published by Microsoft.

But not developed nor both aren't MS IP

 

[MrFunSocks]

Doesn't new Halo supposed to run on Xbone?

Yes, and it fits into the “old game getting patched for new hardware” category since it’s an Xbox one game.

 

[recursive]

Props to Ryan. I really like him. He is the biggest Xbox fan outhere without being a fanboy. Always acknowledging what the competition does well.

So respect for changing his stance there. Even if I think it's way too early, the consoles are not even out.

Hey Ryan. How's the weather?

 

[jimbojim]

To be fair, Sony doesn’t have any first party exclusives coming up either apart from horizon, and we don’t know when that’s coming. Almost every studio they own has released a game in the last 12-18 months.

I don’t disagree that MS have bungled theirs though. I was expecting Fable to be releasing early next year, but the fact they showed a 30 second CGI trailer makes that unlikely. I was expecting Forza at launch but also seems years away. Halo legit appears to be the only first party game in the next 2 years, which is gross incompetence by leadership.

Spider man is an expansion pack to a PS4 game.
Demon's souls is a remaster of a 2 generation old game and not first party, made by bluepoint
Horizon 2 I already mentioned....
GT7 - i wouldn't be betting on that lol. Have you ever heard of Polyphony Digital? We haven't seen anything in game, and they are the slowest developers in the world.
Astrobot is a pre-loaded pack in.....
Sackboy probably, ill give you that.
Destruction allstars isn't first party.
Ratchet and Clank I missed, my mistake.

So yes, I'd say my statement is pretty correct.

So much crap spewed by Xbox fan.

Again that crap with Spider-Man DLC, or expansion. New Spider man is a standalone game, a 10+ hour game an graphically generation above Spiderman on PS4
Demon's Souls isn't a remaster, it's a remake, it's a Sony IP, it's a 1st party game developed by 3rd party, same as Shadow Of The Colossus.
GT7 had a gameplay part. Just check a PS5 event again. "We haven't seen anything in game". LOL
So what if Astrobot is preloaded. Game will be longer than Ryse and The Order. And Astrobot is awesome. One of the best platformer in years

Just stick with your Halo Infinite and wait for it till 2022 maybe. It is the best you can do now.

 

[Nikana]

But not developed nor both aren't MS IP

Cool.

 

[jimbojim]

sircaw

You updating the list about PS5 fuds? You have a material 2 post above.

 

[GymWolf]

This is the same guy who said 720p and 1080p can't be told apart.

It's great how fanboys are given infinite chances to "change their mind" after spreading bullshit for years.

Lol holy fuck...

 

[Slings and Arrows]

You can't spell ignorant without IGN

Though i'm enjoying the humble apologies that we've seen the last few days. I think this is the second person to hold their hands up and say "they were wrong". I really hope the world moves in that direction.

 

[Thirty7ven]

The class of schills the green team attracts never ceases to amaze.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

The class of schills the green team attracts never ceases to amaze.

It's the 'Americanisation' of things. Consumerism and Marketeering are Corporate Americas' biggest export. Always has been.

 

[GametimeUK]

It depends on what you want out of the game. I've said it once and I'll say it again. Games can be scaled across hardware. Was The Witcher 3 compromised because it has to run on the Nintendo Switch? No. Case and point.

 

[MrFunSocks]

So much crap spewed by Xbox fan.

Again that crap with Spider-Man DLC, or expansion. New Spider man is a standalone game, a 10+ hour game an graphically generation above Spiderman on PS4
Demon's Souls isn't a remaster, it's a remake, it's a Sony IP, it's a 1st party game developed by 3rd party, same as Shadow Of The Colossus.
GT7 had a gameplay part. Just check a PS5 event again. "We haven't seen anything in game". LOL
So what if Astrobot is preloaded. Game will be longer than Ryse and The Order. And Astrobot is awesome. One of the best platformer in years

Just stick with your Halo Infinite and wait for it till 2022 maybe. It is the best you can do now.

Where was the behind vehicle with his GT7 footage? Link?

flimsy reasoning for the rest lol

 

[BlackTron]

If you are making the same exact game then duh. If you make two different version of a game that leverages each piece of hardware correctly then you are in business. Microsoft has done this before, they know how to do it. I am not sure why they didn't do that for Halo.

This is not like releasing one version of a game on Playstation and another version on Nintendo DS.

This is a multiplayer-centric, GaaS type deal where everyone has to be able to play together, on the same map. In this case, different versions don't make any sense. The best way is to make one game that scales to the hardware. I mean they could have different "versions", but for the dev it would just be like the same game with different graphics profiles. In other words nothing more than when you play the same game "PS4 Pro Enhanced".

How are you going to use the new processor of the Series X in any meaningful way beyond upping graphics settings? You can't. This is like expecting different versions of Overwatch for different tier PCs and still expecting them to all work together as one GaaS network game.

On a fundamental level the game needs to run on a Jaguar CPU and will therefore be dragged down by old tech. Don't listen to marketing.

 

[BlackTron]

when I read this I agree but then remember Witcher 3 is on the switch....

This took great effort, and started with a game that was already made to scale on different PC configurations.

There is a huge difference between that, and starting your project knowing that every user has the same 13TF to work with.

 

[Nikana]

This is not like releasing one version of a game on Playstation and another version on Nintendo DS.

This is a multiplayer-centric, GaaS type deal where everyone has to be able to play together, on the same map. In this case, different versions don't make any sense. The best way is to make one game that scales to the hardware. I mean they could have different "versions", but for the dev it would just be like the same game with different graphics profiles. In other words nothing more than when you play the same game "PS4 Pro Enhanced".

How are you going to use the new processor of the Series X in any meaningful way beyond upping graphics settings? You can't. This is like expecting different versions of Overwatch for different tier PCs and still expecting them to all work together as one GaaS network game.

On a fundamental level the game needs to run on a Jaguar CPU and will therefore be dragged down by old tech. Don't listen to marketing.

Nobody said because two different devs work on it means they can't have parity.

 

[BlackTron]

Nobody said because two different devs work on it means they can't have parity.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Kagero]

Because PC master race has taught everyone the all games are easily scaleable. Can’t wait to see games specifically built for next gen.

 

[quest]

Because PC master race has taught everyone the all games are easily scaleable. Can’t wait to see games specifically built for next gen.

A lot of can't but that does not start until horizon 2 and we have no date yet.

 

[Warnen]

This took great effort, and started with a game that was already made to scale on different PC configurations.

There is a huge difference between that, and starting your project knowing that every user has the same 13TF to work with.

MS already making there games scaleable since they are releasing them on PC as well.

 

[Vawn]

So since we can finally agree that past hardware limits current gen hardware, can we also agree that a weaker version of modern hardware also holds back the more powerful version (obviously to a lesser degree)?

 

[BlackTron]

MS already making there games scaleable since they are releasing them on PC as well.

Precisely. And this is why we may be able to expect greater technical feats on PS5 games because the devs can count on the hardware they're given. It's "do the best you can on this spec" instead of "make it work on everything".

Yes you can up things like res and effects with a slider or a drop-down. But that's not how they squeezed Horizon Zero Dawn out of the PS4.

 

[sojuwarrior]

it is common sense tbh...

 

[Nikana]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

Then you didn't read the comment you replied to careful enough.

 

[GHG]

Where was the behind vehicle with his GT7 footage? Link?

flimsy reasoning for the rest lol

Why the hell does there need to be chase cam footage of a circuit based quasi-simulation racing game? It's not need for speed FFS.

It's the 'Americanisation' of things. Consumerism and Marketeering are Corporate Americas' biggest export. Always has been.

Yep, it's what the Xbox Ambassador program is.

The concept in the video games industry goes way back - Nintendo realised something like that was absolutely necessary if they were to be successful in America while attempting to go toe to toe with Atari, hence they set up Nintendo Power Line.

 

[jimbojim]

Where was the behind vehicle with his GT7 footage? Link?

flimsy reasoning for the rest lol

Hahaha. Didn't i mentioned PS5 event? Yes i did. Now search it for yourself. Don't be so lazy to do some research and check the gameplay part for yourself. Here is just the screenshot.

Your reasons are more than flimsy, straight up bullshit. I know i would be painful to watch for you because some 1st party games will be released alongside with PS5 or during first year of PS5 knowing that MS will have nothing from their studios
MS will have no 1st party games at launch, Xbox fan logic = neither will Sony.

 

[Damigos]

He is such a buffoon.
IGN shouldnt have a fanboy as an executive director.
One of least likeable people i ve seen on the internet (from “famous” ones)

 

[Warnen]

Precisely. And this is why we may be able to expect greater technical feats on PS5 games because the devs can count on the hardware they're given. It's "do the best you can on this spec" instead of "make it work on everything".

Yes you can up things like res and effects with a slider or a drop-down. But that's not how they squeezed Horizon Zero Dawn out of the PS4.

Ohh it’s one of these post


shouldn’t have responded...

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Yep, it's what the Xbox Ambassador program is.

The concept in the video games industry goes way back - Nintendo realised something like that was absolutely necessary if they were to be successful in America while attempting to go toe to toe with Atari, hence they set up Nintendo Power Line.

I was thinking more of how games are pushed on people. All trailers are flashy, colourful (like a gambling machine in vegas) set to pounding pop DnB style music, the hype, the marketing campaign, it's all becoming very pop-culture and mainstream.

I don't know how to explain it, but it's more like preying on an individuals vanity and FOMO vs "here's a game with an interesting story/combat, here's the things you will like.

Style over substance

 

[GHG]

Hahaha. Didn't i mentioned PS5 event? Yes i did. Now search it for yourself. Don't be so lazy to do some research and check the gameplay part for yourself. Here is just the screenshot.

Your reasons are more than flimsy, straight up bullshit. I know i would be painful to watch for you because some 1st party games will be released alongside with PS5 or during first year of PS5 knowing that MS will have nothing from their studios
MS will have no 1st party games at launch, Xbox fan logic = neither will Sony.

They just put a HUD over CG footage.

It's not chase cam so it can't be gameplay.

 

[Shmunter]

He is such a buffoon.
IGN shouldnt have a fanboy as an executive director.
One of least likeable people i ve seen on the internet (from “famous” ones)

He’s admitted his failings. We must leave room for redemption.

Although that Alien Isolation review is cancel culture worthy. Probably singlehandedly ruined the potential for one of the greatest franchises ever.

 

[jimbojim]

They just put a HUD over CG footage.

It's not chase cam so it can't be gameplay.

Yeah, with some pop-ins

 

[Papacheeks]

He is such a buffoon.
IGN shouldnt have a fanboy as an executive director.
One of least likeable people i ve seen on the internet (from “famous” ones)

You should see the cringe when they do the roundtable 20/20 stuff. He's always spinning something to make it look like XBox is going to be fine or in a better position than Playstation. And that is far from the truth currently.

 

[Nikana]

He’s admitted his failings. We must leave room for redemption.

Although that Alien Isolation review is cancel culture worthy. Probably singlehandedly ruined the potential for one of the greatest franchises ever.

Do any of the people bitching a out the AI review even know the backstory behind it or are people doing what they normally do?

 

[Shmunter]

Do any of the people bitching a out the AI review even know the backstory behind it or are people doing what they normally do?

Lay it on me muchacho

 

[jimbojim]

He’s admitted his failings. We must leave room for redemption.

He spent all the credits a long time ago.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

You should see the cringe when they do the roundtable 20/20 stuff. He's always spinning something to make it look like XBox is going to be fine or in a better position than Playstation. And that is far from the truth currently.

He also doesn't realize that it damages Xbox to be in denial. Sony knew PS3 was a mistake, and they did everything to repair the damage. While so far Xbox seem to pretend they never make mistakes, ever. That when ever there is a change of plan the new plan is always some how a genius move that they expect Sony to copy any day now.

 

[Hendrick's]

PS5 games will take advantage of the hardware unless you are still one of those people who during PS event when they showed games for PS5 "that will work with PS4" crowd, which is not surprising coming from you.

I'm the one with bias? Sure, PS5 games will take advantage of the hardware in the use of increased power, but we won't see what these machines can really do for a few years. It's like that every gen, not sure why people think it won;t be the case this time. And no, nothing shown yet have been all that impressive aside from the UE5 tech demo and MSFS.

 

[BlackTron]

Then you didn't read the comment you replied to careful enough.

Huh? I replied to and quoted this this message:

If you are making the same exact game then duh. If you make two different version of a game that leverages each piece of hardware correctly then you are in business. Microsoft has done this before, they know how to do it. I am not sure why they didn't do that for Halo.

Where does it say anything about two devs? Beyond that, I have no idea what you mean by parity, parity in what way? Certainly not graphics, what then?

What point is even being made, or argued? I don't get your post but I don't think it's my reading comprehension tbh.

 

[Warnen]

I'm the one with bias? Sure, PS5 games will take advantage of the hardware in the use of increased power, but we won't see what these machines can really do for a few years. It's like that every gen, not sure why people think it won;t be the case this time. And no, nothing shown yet have been all that impressive aside from the UE5 tech demo and MSFS.

Knack was the best game on PS4

 

[Papacheeks]

I'm the one with bias? Sure, PS5 games will take advantage of the hardware in the use of increased power, but we won't see what these machines can really do for a few years. It's like that every gen, not sure why people think it won;t be the case this time. And no, nothing shown yet have been all that impressive aside from the UE5 tech demo and MSFS.

God this can't be how people are on here? You can't be this dense. They literally showed games running at 4k, with Ray tracing. Maybe there were corners cut, like we saw in digital foundry breakdown for GT7. But you can't run games "well" natively on PS4PRO at 4k. And those chips in PS4PRO xbox One x don't support ray tracing.

On top of of fast asset loading.

These posts are not going to age well I can bet my account on it.

Can't wait, next couple weeks are going to be fun for people like me to watch these threads become a melting pot.