Gwanatu T said:
The PowerVR chip inside the Dreamcast offered free AA via the tile rendering that it did AFAIK. It's fillrate and polygon limitations were also succumbed by using the excellent tile render/occlusion engine that the PowerVR unit inside the Dreamcast had, allowing games with close-quarters to theoretically be higher detailed. I don't know how many developers made use of this, but I suspect that Shenmue's city design used this feature heavily to feature more polygons per area than if they made a larger more open city like the one found in GTA3.
The DS is designed that way AFAIK or at least from what I've been told by people who make homebrew games for it. I don't remember the numbers exactly but from what I understand every game has to run at 60fps, and games that have 3D on both screens are technically running at 60fps, but alternating frames go on different screens, leaving 30fps per screen. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, and I'm probably not completely in the loop here (since I don't do development in general), so maybe someone else here can explain better.
Kind of frustrating really, because that design doesn't allow you to push the hardware; instead, you have mandated polygon limits that keep the framerate up. I don't think that's necessarily a better solution than the N64's design... as I said, sure the framerates were often low, but the graphics looked so good! With that kind of limit you couldn't have done that, which would be too bad.
I know a lot of people would disagree with that, though... I just have a pretty high tolerance for bad framerates.
The biggest problem with DS hardware is, of course, its lack of anti-aliasing, though. N64 looks best not because of its amazing polygon count (it's not that amazing, as we have established), but because of all the effects it can put on those polygons. It's too bad that the DS left out probably the most important of those effects, it makes DS 3d look like Playstation 3d -- awful, in all but the very best cases! It should have looked like N64 3d but better (better texture resolutions and framerates, that is), but it doesn't.
You know it's funny, because I was the exact same way except on Sega's "side". I hated Sony and never owned a PSX because I felt that they didn't belong in the industry. I also felt the same way about MS but to a lesser extent, simply because they helped Sega all throughout the 90s, especially with the Dreamcast, and it redeemed them in my eyes. Sony to me was just a hardware company, and cared nothing for video games outside of making a profit, and as such they were an outcast that didn't deserve my money. After playing many awesome games on friends' PSX's and then subsequently their PS2's, I had to eventually get a PS2 for Christmas 2003. I also proceeded to buy a PSP at launch and loved the thing for a period, and since then I've had a love/hate relationship with it until Monster Hunter Freedom launched
.
I hated Sony too, but from the PC/Nintendo "Side"... though I never disliked Sega like I did (and sort of do) Sony, that's for sure. Sega was okay, it just wasn't as good as Nintendo, which wasn't as good as PC. Not that I love MS (I can't stand Word or Internet Explorer...), but I do like Windows. Microsoft was always a gaming company, they made Windows, a platform which had more than a few games on it.
But of course, back then all I actually had was a PC and Game Boy... though I had considered asking for a Game Gear (my parents would not let me have a major console then... they thought I'd get addicted to it, I think. They were, obviously, right.
), I decided the GB was a better choice due to better games and battery life. (Just like how when in late 1999 I finally had the money to buy a major console, I considered the options -- PSX, N64, DC -- and went with Nintendo, wishing I could get a DC too (while only having barely enough money for one; indeed, for $200 I could get an N64 with two controllers, Mario 64, and Zelda: Ocarina of Time (and have $20 left over for tax), or... a DC with a demo disc? Yeah, hard choice.), but having no interest in the PSX.)
If you'd told me even five years ago that now I'd have a NES, SNES, Genesis, Sega CD, PSone, Virtual Boy, PS2, and Dreamcast, I don't know that I'd have believed you... (those are all systems I've bought since July 2005, along with a new PC and a DS... and replacement GBA and Gamecube, since both of my originals of those died (poor launch GC, it DRE'd to death in mid 2006...)).
I do sometimes kind of feel like owning all these console games is sort of wrong because it keeps me from playing more PC games, which are deeper and more complex and I love, but... oh well. Console games are fun.
I knew way more people who owned Genesises than SNESes, though... it was mostly NES and Genesis, I'd say. And even in demo stations, the local Sears had a SNES with one cart, or a Genesis with a 6-cart changer... I definitely spent a lot more time on Genesis than SNES back then, and liked the system... but still, I was reading Nintendo Power (and, later on, PC Gamer US), not Sega Visions. But still, I never disliked Sega.
... Sony, though... even now, I like some of the games on the PS1 and PS2, but the systems... I just can't like them. I still dislike Sony. Can't stand Sony's controllers, either... I know it's kind of silly, but... oh well. Even though I have a bunch of great games for the PSone and PS2, I don't use the systems as much as I could, probably mostly because I still just don't like Sony all that much... so sure, I like the games, but... I'd rather play something else, often. But I do like that I have the platforms now.
I loved the games that supported that thing though, because they made an absolute WORLD of difference. The best looking games that used this from my memory were Turok 2, Perfect Dark and SW Rogue Squadron. Seeing RS in Toys R Us for the first time made me buy it with that expansion pack, it was like looking at a whole new system.
Agreed, the expansion pak was fantastic. The only thing wrong with it was that more games didn't support it... most major titles from its release in late 1998 on did, but some significant ones notably did not, with Conker and Banjo-Tooie being two of the best examples. Those games had such awful framerates, I really wished that they'd supported expansion pak somehow to help with that... but yeah, the expansion pak was great. Along with the rumble pak, it's got to be one of the most successful addons ever.
I didn't see quite that difference because I'd only gotten an N64 in Sept. 1999 and then got an expansion pak that Christmas with Donkey Kong 64, but still, comparing games that supported it to ones that didn't, the difference was clear. What I said about framerates was also true, though. Those high-res modes frequently had worse framerates... but I did use them anyway, the improvement was worth it.
Though, of course, in Rogue Squadron's case, even the expansion pak didn't make it look as good as the PC version of the game, which was the one I got in early 1999 (shortly after getting my Voodoo2 in late '98...
)... I did get Battle for Naboo on N64 though, that game looks absolutely phenomenal. Easily some of the best quality textures on the system. Rogue Squadron looks good, but Factor 5 improved things for the second game. Want to see the N64 being pushed about as hard as it can go, with decent framerates too? Play Battle for Naboo.
Acclaim, on the other hand, liked to make N64 games with graphics over framerate, and thus many of their games have serious framerate issues. Extreme-G 2, Turok 2 in high-res mode, and more... those games do not run well. But they look so good... the same was true for Aidyn Chronicles, Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness, and many more -- bad framerate high-res, or medium framerate low-res. I think that it's great that we were given the option, and that the system was better off for it; if someone doesn't mind the hit and likes seeing the better graphics, why not let them?
Episode I Racer looks quite amazing too... though in that case, I kind of hated the game because of its way too high difficulty level. Good game, but so, so hard and frustrating that it stopped being fun... but graphically, it was pretty great.
Episode I Racer had a Dreamcast port too (it was initially PC/N64), and supposedly the DC version pretty much looks exactly like it did on N64 except for extremely minimal changes. THAT one was criticized for not looking different enough... though I've seen a few copies around, I don't like the game enough to want to buy it again and see.
But overall, really, the expansion pak is the rare model of a truly successful addon. Very few addons do nearly that well. Console manufacturers love to make things, but they often don't catch on all that well overall. Every new one splits the market even more. This is definitely a problem Nintendo is facing with the Wii -- Balance Board, Wii Motion Plus, etc. The Balance Board seems like a more limited-use item, like the light guns available on so many consoles that were usually supported by only a few games, but we'll see. The more successful addons are small ones, I think -- the Expansion Pak, Rumble Pak, SNES Mouse, various multitaps, etc. This lends some hope to the Wii Motion Plus... we'll see. It could do well. Wii Sports Resort certainly is a good vehicle for selling them, like DK64 and Zelda: MM were for the Expansion Pak.
Maybe I should have rephrased that to most of the games Sega put out, and I think that holds up honestly. Sega Rally was a terrible port, and anything ported from Model 3 and even Naomi sometimes just wasn't done very well. There are reasons for this and I can't remember them nor do I want to look them up, but basically Sega didn't have their crap together and just slopped out quick ports of those games graphically, even if they spent the time to add extra features. The Dreamcast was a mess and a blessing at the same time. Many reviews for games like Rush 2049 praised the graphics simply because it was such a massive improvement on a multi-platform level. Can you imagine if we saw the same exact game come out on the Wii and the 360/PS3 today? I guess we'll see that come CoD WaW this winter, but no one is going to directly compare that because it's such a vast chasm as far as graphics are concerned, and this really isn't quite that leap anyway since Rush 2049 wasn't completely remade for the Dreamcast to begin with. Regardless of that though, it did look a lot better than the arcade and it had twice the framerate of it's Voodoo-counterpart arcade unit, which was an incredible feat at the time anyway. The Dreamcast truly brought the arcade home in a way that no other system before it did; hell I even remember when I first brought Crazy Taxi home, my dad saw me playing it and said "man, the arcade is definitely dead now, this looks exactly the same!" He knew that because every time we went to Wal-Mart I'd sit in the front of the store and pump coins in to the Crazy Taxi machine they had there. It was my favorite arcade game of all time, and definitely in my top DC games.
Wait... you think Rush 2049 looked better on DC than arcade? Pretty much every fan of the game I've seen has said the exact opposite... that the DC version didn't quite match up to the arcade. The arcade and home versions of Rush 2049 are pretty different. The arcade version has no stunt mode, no battle mode, no wings, better graphics, different shortcuts (the trackside areas were completely redesigned for the home versions), more coins in completely different places, one more track (The Rock), etc. There was also a second arcade release, the Tournament Edition, that was to add two new tracks, a few cars, and online play... it was cancelled in location testing because Midway shut down its arcade division. Later on another company licensed it and released it as the Rush 2049 Special Edition upgrade for arcades, which had the TE tracks and cars added on but without the online features.
See this for instance, arcade version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmAcVnjNeqc
N64:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9CphvhE4oA
DC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDYGuAJ0-l8 (or look up others, most of the Rush 2049 videos on Youtube are of the DC version)
(I know, with Youtube quality most of the differences can't be seen. A few can, at least.)
I'm still hoping we'll someday get a port of the TE or SE arcade versions... that would be incredibly awesome. I mean, I LOVE the home versions as they are (wings are amazing, so, SO useful), but I'd like to be able to play the arcade versions too.
You are right about Crazy Taxi though. That game definitely looked next gen. But relatively few DC games actually looked that good... as I said, even many exclusives didn't. This goes beyond the racing genre; I also just thought of Red Dog: Superior Firepower... very fun game, but graphically, again, it's somewhere in between N64 and PS2... but yes, the system did have some games that proved that the graphics of the majority did not have to be the rule. I do think that if the system had lived longer, we'd have seen more games with clearly next-gen graphics; maybe the system had been nearly maxed out powerwise by the best titles, but the average game clearly had a ways to go... but, aside from Naomi titles, the system died in its third year, and rumors of its imminent demise began in its second (dating from the Dec. 1998 system release in Japan). I love the Dreamcast for its design and its games, but I don't think so much of its graphics, overall. It's just so, SO far behind my benchmark for the generation (aka the only last-gen major console I owned between November 2001 and July 2007), the Gamecube...
PS2 is too, of course. Average PS2 graphics don't exactly impress either... if there was one thing that really frustrated me about the Gamecube when compared to the N64, it's that it had so many PS2 ports. I've talked about this here before, but the GC had a LOT of PS2 ports, while the N64 had many fewer PSX ports, and more exclusives. I liked things better when we had the exclusives, because the games just fit the system so much better that way. As it was last gen, a lot of games just didn't make the transition all that well... so many racing games pointlessly restricted to 2 players only, games with graphics that obviously don't push the GC (or Xbox) hardware, etc. It really was a significant shift when compared to the previous generation. This goes along with the "US third parties abandoned N64 for Xbox" thing too, I'd say.
Sega's success in Europe and especially the US with the Dreamcast really reminds me of the Xbox, honestly, and I'll reiterate that I think it could have reached Xbox levels of success if MS had partnered with Sega or some kind of crazy miracle could have held Sega on. Alas they were way too much of a mess for nearly anything to have saved them unfortunately, but they will surely be missed. Thanks for those articles, they are bookmarked for another time
Yeah, Sega's DC strategy and Microsoft's Xbox strategy do have a lot of similarities. I'm sure you've seen the "Dreamcast-Xbox 360 comparisons' list things... white color, circular logo, Peter Main, similar controllers, online gaming, etc, etc.
Those articles are great, the Eidolons Inn ones have a whole series of very long articles about most of Sega's consoles. They are very biased and the guy regularly tosses in stuff like anti-Nintendo comments, but oh well. They're worth going through sometime anyway.
DrGAKMAN said:
Ya know...I always saw Nintendo and Sega as the "OG's" with their roots even being in the arcades and that the SNES vs Genisis period was a great period for gamers and gaming. As was said I saw Sony, MS and others trying to get in as a bad thing...since then, they have established themselves as gaming companies now, but I can't respect them as much as I can the OG's. Looking at Sega, I'm sure the Dreamcast era was a difficult time for them internally...with all their hardware woes (Japan trying to push Saturn, while the American side was doing Genisis add-ons) it seemed they were finally united. i too paid attention to the Sega/MS alliance as it made sense for them to be together since Sega was so ambitious about online gaming and MS could certainly help them. Instead though, I feel as though MS sorta abandonned Sega near the end of the DC (for good reason, but still it was shitty) and I didn't like them getting into gaming. There *was* a miracle move that would've been crazy...MS was suppossedly in talks to make the original X-BOX compatible with DC games and that Sega would align with MS in supporting it against the system (PS2 hype) that killed their baby. But, Sega really wasn't united...if ever...and some wanted to go here(Sonic Team to Nintendo for example) and others wanted to make games on all systems, while other still just wanted not to support the thing that killed DC: PS2. MS didn't go for DC compatibility and instead worked out a deal for like 11 Sega exclussives (that sold for shit BTW) most of which were good games that probably woulda sold better on GCN. Sad sad story.
Yeah, it is kind of too bad that the Sega-MS thing didn't happen. I mean, I was happy that it didn't, because I wanted Sega support on the GC (my GC would be so much less interesting without Skies of Arcadia Legends...), but Sega almost certainly would have benefited from that move. But the talks broke down, and MS launched the Xbox without Sega... I wonder if Sega later regretted not following through with that or not. If the problem was independence, they ended up as part of a large corporation anyway...
But you probably are right that, considering Sega's lack of unity, it was never going to happen. Each team just went its own way and supported the platform it more liked... of course this gen now everything is multiplatform, but while last gen Western games were very frequently multiplatform (unless they were first or second party), Japanese games were still more often exclusive.
On a note more related to this thread, it's too bad that the Famicom Disk System, Satellaview, and 64DD were all Japan-only. The NES, SNES, and N64 all had addons, but we didn't get ANY of them? That's awful... sure, at least for NES many of the better FDS games were brought here on cartridge, but the Satellaview and 64DD concepts could not be so translated to normal cartridges. Sure, F-Zero X Expansion Kit was the one great thiing on the 64DD, and it really is kind of amazing that they released the thing at all, but still... it would have been nice to see, even if it's too bad that it was nothing remotely like what Nintendo had been promising for all those years. Now THERE'S another great story, maybe just as epic as the SNES CD story that has been mentioned here... the saga of the 64DD, from early promise of large-format writable media on the N64 that would be used by games like Zelda to the result of, well, total failure.
The Satellaview was also a cool idea, kind of like Sega Channel, except via satellite, and you could save games onto writable cartridges, instead of just losing stuff when you turned off the system... and some games had live broadcasts so there could be voice acting and such, and time limits. And multiplayer in a few cases, I think. Very interesting idea. I can see why it only caught on really as a downloadable-games service, but even just as that, it would have been great to see... (along with stuff like F-Zero Ace Cup!)