Yep. Bosses could use some work though. But I think that'll be a struggle from any soulslike game not made by fromsoftware. They were all unique though. Just nothing really felt epic to me
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I'll just outright say it, Nioh is a fucking slog of a game
- Thread starter AgentOtaku
- Start date
Some people getting seriously offended in here. Relax, damn. Different strokes for different folks.
I have mixed feelings, really. I actually took a break from it a few weeks ago and will probably go back some point during the summer. I started playing it off of 100 hour playthroughs of Bloodborne followed by Dark Souls 3 and I can certainly appreciate the differences between the styles. Nioh has a lot more intricacy in its combat but falls short in a lot of other areas. In the beginning, I was just using the katana and treating it like a basic Souls rip-off and I enjoyed it for a few hours but it got boring eventually. Once I started exploring more weapons, magic, ninjitsu, and spirit, it opened up and changed the game quite a bit.
Outside of the loot, length, level design, repetition, etc. that everyone has covered already, the main thing that I miss coming off of the Soulsborne games is the sense of discovery. I mean that in the sense of both the game world itself, exploring and making my way through the gorgeous, fanciful/horrifying locales, and also the story elements, slowly building a bigger and bigger picture of the history of the world and what's going on. I don't get any of that from Nioh. The mission structure disconnects me entirely from the world and the story just seems to consist of throwing a bunch of names and random characters at me when I reach new areas I know little and don't learn much about.
I have mixed feelings, really. I actually took a break from it a few weeks ago and will probably go back some point during the summer. I started playing it off of 100 hour playthroughs of Bloodborne followed by Dark Souls 3 and I can certainly appreciate the differences between the styles. Nioh has a lot more intricacy in its combat but falls short in a lot of other areas. In the beginning, I was just using the katana and treating it like a basic Souls rip-off and I enjoyed it for a few hours but it got boring eventually. Once I started exploring more weapons, magic, ninjitsu, and spirit, it opened up and changed the game quite a bit.
Outside of the loot, length, level design, repetition, etc. that everyone has covered already, the main thing that I miss coming off of the Soulsborne games is the sense of discovery. I mean that in the sense of both the game world itself, exploring and making my way through the gorgeous, fanciful/horrifying locales, and also the story elements, slowly building a bigger and bigger picture of the history of the world and what's going on. I don't get any of that from Nioh. The mission structure disconnects me entirely from the world and the story just seems to consist of throwing a bunch of names and random characters at me when I reach new areas I know little and don't learn much about.
AgentOtaku
Member
The Order 1886 gets shit on a lot here.
I was completely burned out on the Souls formula. Nioh rekindled my love just because of how great the combat is. I've platinumed the game and like it even more than BB.
If you're into mission based gameplay built around the Diabolo loot idea, this is your game.
I get some of the criticism, but concerning enemy variations: yes, less variety than Souls, but the game has more bosses than Botw enemy types. The game is just too long.
If you're into mission based gameplay built around the Diabolo loot idea, this is your game.
I get some of the criticism, but concerning enemy variations: yes, less variety than Souls, but the game has more bosses than Botw enemy types. The game is just too long.
Yep. The enemy and level repetition, completely unengaging story, bad level design and horrible loot system ruined it for me. I was immensely hyped after the alpha and beta, but some of the flaws already started to annoy me in the second beta. I should have realized something's wrong at that point.
I still haven't even completed the game and I have almost no interest to go back.
I still haven't even completed the game and I have almost no interest to go back.
Imp the Dimp
Member
The game got some of the best moment to moment gameplay in history, no hyperbole. I think it's the best game I have played this year but indeed, it loses steam towards the end. Should have ended four and a half areas in.
Killroyskbg
Member
Those dual boss fights at the last chapter was just the worst.
R_thanatos
Member
I'll be clear on this .. i'm not dismissing that nioh has flaws and yes , there is some copy and paste. But, aside from the "opinions" each of us have on the subject , i don't see why i can't argue that your experience is not one for the average player and say to a new player that his experience might certainly be different. ( see the post i was quoting abvove ? )
#irony #fanboyism #pot #kettle #black
Except that the level design that you're experiencing should be the thing giving you different scenarios/ battle encounters. Heck i was talking about bosses, not the levels but i can change the goalpost ( since i Was talking about new mecanics ).
Where does the first few levels end , btw ? because , in every new region , there are new things to take care of in the levels.
Where is this difficulty spike with the bosses that the level you're "cruising" in didn't prepare you to handle ?
is it in chugoku and the mine with poison preparing you to handle the centipede ?
Is it in chugoku again with umi-bozu with the water slimes explaining the mecanics of those new ennemies ?
or is it in Kinki and the castle filled with spider web and their slow mecanics preparing you to the spider boss ?
maybe it's kinki with the snow ennemies getting you ready for yuki-onna
Wait , i must be mistaken or maybe is it in tokai with the ninja castle and the many ninja traps , getting you ready to handle the giant toad
or maybe i can continue to sekigahara or Omi to find exemples of how the levels are teaching new mecanics in the level for handling the bosses. Sorry i must be confused.
Can you point me to an exemple of a difficulty spike that wasn't prepared and explained by the level before the boss ? because i don't see it.
The levels are so easy , the bosses are hard doesn't compute for me.
again , i'm NOT talking about opinions , if someone didn't like nioh , it's fine .. but if there is a discussion about boss design or level design in nioh , then i will explain my stance properly.
How am I moving goalposts when you are saying that bosses in Nioh being a difficulty spike doesn't compute? I said it does.
First few levels as in first two. Basically all of the levels consists of regular dudes or the zombified versions and horned yokai with either sword or axe. Thats like 90% of the encounters in the game and if you can deal with those then the levels should be a cakewalk.
And where is the difficulty spike? In every single boss in the game. Not a single level prepares to you what is waiting you at the end. I could go through every level without dying only to have to retry bosses 30-100 times. That is awful balance in my opinion.
test_account
XP-39C²
What the solution from now on though? Leave the game and dont finish it, or ignore the optional mission and only finishing the remaining main missions?
Whats the deal with the hyperbole? The game is trash? And if they like the games, then they only like them because its exclusive to some platform? Its not possible to actually like the game itself?
Yikes, maybe take a pass on this game lmao
AgentOtaku
Member
PhantomThief
Banned
Lol, this troll.
Why not outright ban this dumb fanboy spouting? Pardon my assumption that he's trolling.
Now wait a minute - the side content is really just for people who haven't had enough of the game. You can just mainline the entire game.
R_thanatos
Member
Then it doesn't make sense.
The first 2 ? really ?
Then there is no need to discuss anything else.. Hino-emma is just a matter of dodging and she has long and predictable attack patterns. You were just saying that souls spikes are nothing to nioh. This is ridiculous , let's agree to disagree then
AgentOtaku
Member
You could, but I deeply respected/loved the fundamental gameplay. So I would do the side-content, because I wanted more action and I also wanted the Exp/rewards.
I shouldn't be at risk of burn-out if I'm actively engaging the content that the developers wanted players to play, right?
The problem, once again, came with dat Copy Pasta
The diablo loot system was clearly a poor design choice from the start.
Already finished and platinumed it though. Struggle was real lol.
How it doesn't make sense? Are you saying that you aren't fighting horned yokai and soldiers or zombified soldiers in every level? Because that is how it felt.
I'm 60 hours in 5th region. I understand the repetitiveness and enemy variety complaints. Still very much into it. It has become increasingly less difficult in at level 87ish.
I love the game. There are definitely some issues that should be addressed on the sequel: interface (the skill upgrades are a pain), shorten the game, the levels are generic (visually), lack of enemies, less loot (too much trash and item management).
Anyways, love the game and I'm glad Team Ninja is back.
I love the game. There are definitely some issues that should be addressed on the sequel: interface (the skill upgrades are a pain), shorten the game, the levels are generic (visually), lack of enemies, less loot (too much trash and item management).
Anyways, love the game and I'm glad Team Ninja is back.
R_thanatos
Member
i never argued for or against this statement. You're not even paying attention to my argument. First you react to a sentence adressed to someone else with a different argument than mine that i didn't say initally , then you don't even bother reading my points.
You came to me with an argument about bosses , how they compare or not with souls games and your only argument is about the ennemies that aren't bosses...but the fact that the regular ennemies are similar ? It's ok ... i wasn't talking about that in the first place.
And you wonder why i can't make sense of your argument? i'm not talking about that in the first place.I wasn't even arguing about the regular ennemies in my initial comment.
You're the one that want to talk about those. i'm talking about the levels and how the level are tied to their bosses and provide hints to defeat them . Exemple : the spider boss in Kinki region with the web that slow you down during the level before encountering the boss.
Please tell me , where in the heck did i speak about the regular ennemies. My second sentence in this thread is :
and when agentotaku probed for more , i answered ABOUT THE BOSSES
Then you talked about the LEVELS that are piss easy.
From the start i'm talking about boss battle design , encounter design and then you reply to me that the ennemies are the same ?
Ok , we're not talking about the same thing , simple as that
Didn't this get patched quite some time ago or are you talking about something else?
SkyTurnsRed
Banned
Knack... The Order... DriveClub to an extent... Killzone... LittleBigPlanet 3... and these are just PS4 games.
Sony is well loved here because the exclusives that are good are excellent. They don't get a pass when they miss though.
Alchemy?
AgentOtaku
Member
Fuck..... now im tempted to reinstall it...
WHAT THE FUCK AM I EVEN SAYING!?
WHAT THE FUCK AM I EVEN SAYING!?
You were saying that Nioh having awkward as hell difficulty spikes while Souls doesn't have them doesn't make sense. I am telling you why it does make sense. It makes sense because the levels themselves are really easy and don't require you to properly explore the mechanics. This is why I brought up the levels having little to no enemy variety. Having low enemy variety with small movesets does not prepare you properly and neither does having spider webs on the floor that slow you down.
Since levels are easy it makes the hard bosses feel even way harder and much higher difficulty spikes than what you will ever find in Souls. This
Also if you were talking about encounter design from the start then why is it weird that I bring up the game recycling same few enemies? Enemies are part of encounter design.
Hmmmm, this thread is getting a bit heated for silly reasons. I have 450 hours in this game w/two level 400 characters and one level 1 character. The 400s have beaten all of WoTD (ng++) and I've left the level 1 halfway through WoTS (ng+).
Nioh certainly has its problems namely enemy variety w/diablo loot being hit or miss for most people. Even I (I like the diablo loot more than most) think that team ninja has made the loot system needlessly complicated, due to shoddy translation, in the sense that they use different names to mean the same thing and some skill and special effects are outright wrong. Hell the parry stat on a weapon should say stability too. If a person who digs deep into these systems is confused how exactly is a person who doesn't like the loot system going make heads or tails of it. They also should really cut back on the amount of useless special effects and reduce the RNG needed when reforging. There really is too much menu management. And I agree, it is too long maybe 4 regions instead of 6 would have been good with a lot of side missions for post game content and dual boss battles opening up after completing the game for those of us who enjoy it.
However even having said that, the stance system, core combat and movement fundamentals are so strong that I never stopped having fun. I've been doing base level runs ever since demons souls released in 09 and I honestly think Nioh was the most fun at base level due to Ki flux (stance switching during a Ki pulse) and the parry system. I think most of the bosses (save 2 end game gimmick bosses) are incredibly well designed, have well telegraphed attacks and openings due to the fact that you can cause Ki damage to bosses.
The dual bosses too are very well designed as they are often quite easy solo (at endgame) but cover each other's weakness when fought together. The standard for them in the base game is putting a fast opponent and slower opponent together. The challenge is almost puzzle like in nature figuring out how to separate them in order put damage on them. I honestly thought they were brilliant challenges and they are totally optional for people who do not like them.
I truly adore this game and was very surprised by team ninja's comeback as I had all but lost hope in them after ninja gaiden 3. However I would still give the game a 7/10 (a very good 7/10 mind you).
I think team ninja have got an incredible core, which even OP agrees with, and a solid foundation with improvements to be made in the sequel.
I don't think there needs to be so much animosity.
Nioh certainly has its problems namely enemy variety w/diablo loot being hit or miss for most people. Even I (I like the diablo loot more than most) think that team ninja has made the loot system needlessly complicated, due to shoddy translation, in the sense that they use different names to mean the same thing and some skill and special effects are outright wrong. Hell the parry stat on a weapon should say stability too. If a person who digs deep into these systems is confused how exactly is a person who doesn't like the loot system going make heads or tails of it. They also should really cut back on the amount of useless special effects and reduce the RNG needed when reforging. There really is too much menu management. And I agree, it is too long maybe 4 regions instead of 6 would have been good with a lot of side missions for post game content and dual boss battles opening up after completing the game for those of us who enjoy it.
However even having said that, the stance system, core combat and movement fundamentals are so strong that I never stopped having fun. I've been doing base level runs ever since demons souls released in 09 and I honestly think Nioh was the most fun at base level due to Ki flux (stance switching during a Ki pulse) and the parry system. I think most of the bosses (save 2 end game gimmick bosses) are incredibly well designed, have well telegraphed attacks and openings due to the fact that you can cause Ki damage to bosses.
The dual bosses too are very well designed as they are often quite easy solo (at endgame) but cover each other's weakness when fought together. The standard for them in the base game is putting a fast opponent and slower opponent together. The challenge is almost puzzle like in nature figuring out how to separate them in order put damage on them. I honestly thought they were brilliant challenges and they are totally optional for people who do not like them.
I truly adore this game and was very surprised by team ninja's comeback as I had all but lost hope in them after ninja gaiden 3. However I would still give the game a 7/10 (a very good 7/10 mind you).
I think team ninja have got an incredible core, which even OP agrees with, and a solid foundation with improvements to be made in the sequel.
I don't think there needs to be so much animosity.
R_thanatos
Member
I'll just take my ( previous ) exemple:
So you start the level , and then there are 2 ennemies, then you , the player sees the webs on the floor. Then you get to experience fighting on the webs while slowed down or you can backtrack to a safe place.
then the next fight is against a big spider that actually launch webs at you to slow you down and grab you to the death.
So what does this start of the level teaches the player?
1- that you need to be wary of the webs as , contrary to the first encounter in the level, your movement speed changes.
2- that spiders will grab you if you can't move anymore.
3- that you can crave your own path by cutting the web in the houses ( after the fight ) to find loot , so you can use this if slowed down.
There are variants of this encounter during the level , teaching the players about spiders hanging on the ceiling , and their various weaknesses like fire.
So how does this teach the player about the boss? It actually already tell you about many of the bosses attacks.
-Don't get too close or else she will grab you
-Evade the webs she throw at you.
And i'm not even going to mention the various rush attack the spider uses.
By the time you reach the boss , you should have understood all the basics, there is no "spike" unless you don't pay attention.
This is just an exemple.. You keep talking about low ennemy variety and i don't disagree , but it has little influence on how the game places the ennemies to teach you about the challenge you're going to face at the end.
You keep saying that you were bored during the levels , but if it was so easy , why the struggle during the bosses that use mecanics present during the level they are in ?
You're either bored during the level and the bosses because it's too easy or you struggle trying to find a way with your gameplay style..
Shall i use other levels as exemple ? my point is simple and i'm tired of this exchange against a wall :
- Yes nioh has low ennemy variety
- However , it uses it's small cast to teach the player about what's going to happen.
- Therefore , it's no different than bosses from other games , requiring you to have understood the mecanics present and you need to take advantage of it.
I'm done.
( For real )
AgentOtaku
Member
Hostility from me? I think you are very seriously reading things that are not in my post. I used as few words as possible even.
semiconscious
Member
the truth? there rarely, if ever, really needs to be, up here. & it always confuses me
...
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I had a huge blast with the game when it first came out. I put it down for several games though. I'm a huge fan of the 4 Souls games and Bloodborne, so I'm not gonna say they're better or worse.
Yeah I got to the 4th mission and realized I wanted to start over again. Yeah it sucks dying against the same enemies throughout the entire area. I hate
with a passion.
I usually play Axe, but it felt like it was time to learn something with more speed. I am going back now to it and I'm progressing better than I was. I realize the complaints have been said about reused this and that, but it still feels like a good time.
I'm not exactly hoping Nioh 2 gets announced tomorrow. I hope it does get a sequel someday, but I gotta finish it. Man, another major complaint about Nioh. lol seems to be more and more common
I just want to finish it and enjoy seeing those credits. Then I'll take a sequel where they "-"fixed things"-".
Yeah I got to the 4th mission and realized I wanted to start over again. Yeah it sucks dying against the same enemies throughout the entire area. I hate
Hino-enma
I usually play Axe, but it felt like it was time to learn something with more speed. I am going back now to it and I'm progressing better than I was. I realize the complaints have been said about reused this and that, but it still feels like a good time.
I'm not exactly hoping Nioh 2 gets announced tomorrow. I hope it does get a sequel someday, but I gotta finish it. Man, another major complaint about Nioh. lol seems to be more and more common
I just want to finish it and enjoy seeing those credits. Then I'll take a sequel where they "-"fixed things"-".
Frag Waffles
Member
We can go ahead and dispel that myth after E3 2017. People here couldn't trip over each other fast enough to shit on Sony games.
On topic, yeah the game does get way too repetitive. The combat was great enough to get me through it, but the game needed to be about 10-15 hours shorter.
This thread is demotivating me from playing more of the game. I played a couple of hours and loved the combat but found the environments & enemies really dull. I only have about 4-5 hours a week to play games and I have about a dozen plus games i'm trying to juggle, plus Dota. I really want to keep going, but if it becomes a slog I think I'm out.
Abstrusity
Member
I loved the game but I also love the aesthetic, anyway. It has some problems, it's not perfect, but it's an 8/10 for me.
Better than Ninja Gaiden Black
Drillary Clinton
Banned
It is absolutely a slog, OP. After about 5-6 hours, you've pretty much seen everything that there is to see. The combat is really enjoyable until you figure out which one of the five weapons you're going to use and you'll probably find one stance that works best for you and end up doing the same combos over and over. The lack of enemy variety and rehashing of levels is also one of the game's sins.
It wouldn't be as bad if you could just ignore side content, but if you don't, you'll likely be outleveled by the enemies in the main missions. Boss fights aren't all that great either. They're pretty easy aside from some of the humanoid enemies (great fights).
The levels are typically very constrained and don't offer the amount of movement and freedom that something as fast paced as Nioh deserves. Game seems like it was a Njnja Gaiden game at some point during development and switched over to this or they used assets from an unreleased Ninja Gaiden game. The inclusion of a jump button and attacks that come with it would have been a life saver for this game.
Game is rarely rewarding and I am often either bored or frustrated.
It wouldn't be as bad if you could just ignore side content, but if you don't, you'll likely be outleveled by the enemies in the main missions. Boss fights aren't all that great either. They're pretty easy aside from some of the humanoid enemies (great fights).
The levels are typically very constrained and don't offer the amount of movement and freedom that something as fast paced as Nioh deserves. Game seems like it was a Njnja Gaiden game at some point during development and switched over to this or they used assets from an unreleased Ninja Gaiden game. The inclusion of a jump button and attacks that come with it would have been a life saver for this game.
Game is rarely rewarding and I am often either bored or frustrated.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yes. Level design and enemy design isn't as good though. The RPG mechanics also aren't as deep, though they are more complex at times.
Because the levels don't prepare the player properly for bosses. Why? Because it levels have the exact same enemies every single time and those enemies are insanely easy. Bosses however aren't insanely easy but insanely hard.
So you are saying that the experience I had isn't possible? Because I found the levels to be incredibly easy while bosses were extremely hard.
Bloodporne
Member
I was really hoping for a mention of 'ULTRA SHIT'.
The game is fucking killer but most certainly is much too long. As much as I enjoyed it overall despite that, I still think the fishing village proper first level is the best level in the game and that was definitely a major bummer.
That being said, it's some of the most fun I've ever had with a combat system. I really hope they can the rock-solid core and improve all the other issues around it with level design and enemy variety being the obvious.
AgentOtaku
Member
Yup,
I ended up reinstalling it and am actively playing it again...
As of right now, I just beat
and am at the main castle mission after that. Thanks to folks like R_Thanatos who gave some valid pointers and kinda convinced me to stick with it. That and well, the combat, REALLY is that fucking good
I think ultimately I just needed a break and absolutely needed to stay the hell away from all the sub-missions
I ended up reinstalling it and am actively playing it again...
As of right now, I just beat
Ogress
I think ultimately I just needed a break and absolutely needed to stay the hell away from all the sub-missions
Haha I saw your post in the OT.
In my review I said the game is too long, but is it something that would lower the score? I finally settled on not lowering the score, despite the game overstaying its welcome. The game was long for me, but it might not be long for many other people. Even though the review is my own, and is about my play experience, I thought I was having fun the entire way. I would prefer a shorter game, but it was never bad. This is obviously a game by game scenario, but I thought the gameplay just kept on getting better the further you get in the game.
If anyone does think its long, there is absolutely no need to do any of the side missions or twilight missions you can just do the main ones and you'll be pretty powerful by the end of the game.
But you do need to be prepared to put at least 50 if not 60 hours into the game.
And just a few other pointers from the OP (which might have already been answered):
- 'Level' is referring to equipment level not character level.
- I thought bosses were harder in the first 2/3rds of the game, Nue, Giant Toad, Ogress, Giant Centipede were the ones that probably gave me the most trouble. Saika Magoichi is not easy either as you can easily roll/dodge into the flames.
- The bosses are difficulty spikes because you are actually not great at the game early on and its only by the end you become skilled. I won't spoil the game, but you'll feel like a badass near the end.
In my review I said the game is too long, but is it something that would lower the score? I finally settled on not lowering the score, despite the game overstaying its welcome. The game was long for me, but it might not be long for many other people. Even though the review is my own, and is about my play experience, I thought I was having fun the entire way. I would prefer a shorter game, but it was never bad. This is obviously a game by game scenario, but I thought the gameplay just kept on getting better the further you get in the game.
If anyone does think its long, there is absolutely no need to do any of the side missions or twilight missions you can just do the main ones and you'll be pretty powerful by the end of the game.
But you do need to be prepared to put at least 50 if not 60 hours into the game.
And just a few other pointers from the OP (which might have already been answered):
- 'Level' is referring to equipment level not character level.
- I thought bosses were harder in the first 2/3rds of the game, Nue, Giant Toad, Ogress, Giant Centipede were the ones that probably gave me the most trouble. Saika Magoichi is not easy either as you can easily roll/dodge into the flames.
- The bosses are difficulty spikes because you are actually not great at the game early on and its only by the end you become skilled. I won't spoil the game, but you'll feel like a badass near the end.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Absolutely not. On paper it should be, but the lack of variety on the combat is part of what makes it a slog. You'll most likely find one weapon that you'll use for the entire game that you also use one stance most of the time for. For me it was Low stance kusarigama. I use 2 combos and sometimes extra abilities and face roll the majority of enemies and bosses. The combat isn't bad, by any means. But it definitely gets very repetitive.
Dark Souls has so much more variety, not just in the weapons that you use, with varying movesets, but also viable combos (especially 3)
catashtrophe
Member
I got this game a few months ago and got to the 2nd world before i stopped playing and got side tracked by Horizon and the Res 7.
I'm planning on returning to Nioh from this weekend so 1 question is how many worlds are there and how long will the game take to finish if i do the main quests only and not the side missions
I'm planning on returning to Nioh from this weekend so 1 question is how many worlds are there and how long will the game take to finish if i do the main quests only and not the side missions
No it isnt.
Its different.Its "gamey" combat reminiscent of PS2 action games.
Souls/BB aims for a completely different feel of weighty combat.
Enemy AI design is also very different.