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[SolidSnakex]

We do not know that yet, but hopefully they have it right. Just curious about PS3, do we know that they are including PS2 and PS1 hardware into it so that all games will be compatible off the bat? If so, that is very impressive.

The magazine states that the PS3 hardware, in its current form, includes the core PlayStation 2 chipset. This presumably means that initial PS3 units will include the single Emotion Engine (the PS2 CPU) and Graphic Synthesizer (the PS2 graphics chip) combo chip that powers the slim model PS2.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/711/711242p1.html

 

[C4Lukins]

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/711/711242p1.html

Thanks for answering, and if true, it is yet another addition that justifies the price tag.

 

[Gattsu25]

Don't care. That's their problem to work out, not mine. I'm not going to complain to Immersion, it's Sony's product I am buying in the end.

Yeah, Sony are the ones that are, in effect, punishing players due to their stingyness
...why should we complain to Immersion?

 

[kaching]

Now that the PS3 controller is motion based, rumble matters more. With motion based movements, rumble is important to signal collisions.

Why? Did everybody suddenly stop watching the screen and listening to the game audio when playing games?

...why should we complain to Immersion?

Because frivolous patent lawsuits suck and the patent system has serious problems that have a chilling effect on real innovation. Have you read the patents that this whole brouhaha is over? Anyone with a high school level understanding of physics could've written it. Immersion wants to be paid tens of millions (either through license fees or lawsuit settlement) for happening to be the one to file a document with the patent office first that describes the absolute most common sense way to implement rumble effects in a controller. When people joke about when someone is going to get around to patenting the air we breathe, this is the kind of patent that triggers it.

 

[monoRAIL]

Do Immersion hold a US patent or did they apply for patents in many regions?

The real guilty party here is the US government, for underfunding and understaffing the US patent office.

 

[DCharlie]

stupid question here.

but if nintendo are exempt because their unit is removable (?), can't sony just make a basic interface and split off the arm parts of the DS3?

You'd get the same rumble, but HEY! it's detatchable...

or , alternatively, just release a different rumble pack that slots into the usb port?

or am i just totally missing something? Don't blame me, it's not my fault the patent situation is so monged.

 

[Jim]

The info is from last month (5/16), and from GamePro (2 strikes right there), but a tidbit I came across the other day:

"To date, the controller will not have rumbling".

Means shit obviously, but being well versed in PR speak, they aren't going to completely rule it out yet. I still think they are playing hardball with Immersion. *shrug*

 

[Gattsu25]

*sigh* I see your point but I was more trying to show that Sony aren't exactly innocent in all this...I'm pretty sure Sony knew of this patent before the lawsuit appeared (otherwise they would have tried to patent the very same tech, themselves...don't fool yourself by thinking they wouldn't) so yes, while the patent system is a joke, and a particular shadow company is abusing it, Sony had many chances in the past to resolve this before it became such a big issue

Regardless of who is originally to blame, Sony are the only ones we can blame now for ****ing over customers who are STILL paying $100-200 more for their product

When people joke about when someone is going to get around to patenting the air we breathe, this is the kind of patent that triggers it.

I'd like to think that patenting the ability to truncate the y axis on a graph that is displayed on a computer screen (EXAMPLE) is a more frivilous example of the patent system's misuse (shame on you, Microsoft)

 

[Kroole]

stupid question here.

but if nintendo are exempt because their unit is removable (?), can't sony just make a basic interface and split off the arm parts of the DS3?

You'd get the same rumble, but HEY! it's detatchable...

or , alternatively, just release a different rumble pack that slots into the usb port?

or am i just totally missing something? Don't blame me, it's not my fault the patent situation is so monged.

I'm no expert either but I do recall it being two completely different technologies. I think Nintendo involves a spring which produces the vibrations versus a motor in Immersions take on the concept.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Why? Did everybody suddenly stop watching the screen and listening to the game audio when playing games?.

No, but I really want to know when my car in GT4 or Toca is at it's optimal braking point(and other mechanical effects). Something I can't hear.

And immersion is the keyword. We could just cut the audio. To play the game it isn't necessary. Rumble improves immersion many games. The effect differs from person to person but having it is better than not having it. One could always decide to turn it off.

 

[JB1981]

Damn, that white PS2 is sexy.

 

[kaching]

Regardless of who is originally to blame, Sony are the only ones we can blame now for ****ing over customers who are STILL paying $100-200 more for their product

Yes, yes - Sony is stingy and gamers aren't acting the least bit spoiled because they're losing a very simplistic form of force feedback that hasn't evolved perceptibly in nearly a decade and hasn't been a significant determinant factor in what has made the best games that have appeared during that time as great as they are. A feature gamers can still get on other platforms if its really that important to them.

I'm not talking about innocence here - Sony has opted to remove a feature that's been de facto standard for years and they'll find out soon enough whether that's really an important factor to the majority of the market they want to sell to. That's a calculated decision on their part. But let's reign in the hyperbole here. There's full disclosure on the removal of the rumble effect, so anyone considering paying $500-600 for a PS3 this fall has the opportunity to be fully informed on this ommission before they make a purchase. If they still decide to make a purchase, how can you claim they are getting "****ed over" by this?

I'd like to think that patenting the ability to truncate the y axis on a graph that is displayed on a computer screen (EXAMPLE) is a more frivilous example of the patent system's misuse (shame on you, Microsoft)

I'm sure we could have a lot of fun trawling the patent database for the most frivolous patents we could find, but we'd just end up with a heaping pile of frivolous patents that would *still* include Immersion's in this case.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I'm not talking about innocence here - Sony has opted to remove a feature that's been de facto standard for years and they'll find out soon enough whether that's really an important factor to the majority of the market they want to sell to. That's a calculated decision on their part. But let's reign in the hyperbole here. There's full disclosure on the removal of the rumble effect, so anyone considering paying $500-600 for a PS3 this fall has the opportunity to be fully informed on this ommission before they make a purchase. If they still decide to make a purchase, how can you claim they are getting "****ed over" by this?

My friend, I direct you to the Marketplace Demo thread. I think Sony is on the right track naming them "Entitlements" after all.

 

[kaching]

No, but I really want to know when my car in GT4 or Toca is at it's optimal braking point(and other mechanical effects). Something I can't hear.

Or see? You can't detect the rate at which your vehicle is decelerating onscreen and instead have to rely on crude haptic feedback that's probably less accurate than the visual cues you're being given?

And immersion is the keyword. We could just cut the audio. To play the game it isn't necessary. Rumble improves immersion many games. The effect differs from person to person but having it is better than not having it. One could always decide to turn it off.

With all due respect, you're completely failing to acknowledge the context in which I made the comment. Lapsed's claim is that motion-based control mechanisms make force feedback effects more important somehow, like tilting a gamepad rather than nudging a stick to steer a vehicle differs in some significant way that would simply make traditional audiovisual cues insufficient as feedback for the player, specifically with regard to collisions, apparently.

You seem to have taken my comment as a complete renunciation of haptic feedback in general and nothing could be further from the truth. It's all well and good to say having something is better than not having it, but what we have in the console sector is the lowest hanging fruit and there's been no evolution for years, across generations of hardware. For the sake of argument you suggest we could just cut audio in the same vein because it's unnecessary too, but audio in games has evolved greatly over the years and has established itself as quite integral to the modern gaming experience, as a result.

We're at a point in the evolution of haptic feedback mechanisms in gaming right now where the vast majority of that evolution is yet to happen. This "setback" is so insignificant in that regard and may actually help spur evolution rather than derail it - it's clear for example that Immersion, a company that sits on so much IP related to haptic feedback, is now starting to realize that they aren't doing much to nurture acceptance of their solutions and move the state of the art forward in this area by resting on their laurels and wasting time and resources on patent infringement suits.

 

[Nerevar]

is everyone complaining that this patent is frivolous oblivious to the fact that Sony basically argued that point in court and lost? Basically, Immersion's patent held up in court. What more could you want?

 

[kaching]

is everyone complaining that this patent is frivolous oblivious to the fact that Sony basically argued that point in court and lost? Basically, Immersion's patent held up in court. What more could you want?

No, not I. But I'm not sure when we ever determined that every court decision is unassailably the best decision that could have been made - surely you're not suggesting that's the case? The decision has been made, Sony owes Immersion some money as a result and I don't see anyone arguing that. I still think the patent is frivolous and the damages pursued by Immersion even moreso.

 

[qirex]

is everyone complaining that this patent is frivolous oblivious to the fact that Sony basically argued that point in court and lost? Basically, Immersion's patent held up in court. What more could you want?

So what? Amazon's one-click patent held up in court and that doesn't make it any less stupid. I find this whole situation hilarious because without Sony Immersion is basically out of business. Reaping what they sow and all that.

 

[travisbickle]

Regardless of who is originally to blame, Sony are the only ones we can blame now for ****ing over customers who are STILL paying $100-200 more for their product

What? Oh right yeah, that actually doesn't make sense but it works for dramatic effect.

 

[Wollan]

Im not sure if this has been posted earlier here but it's a funny little video(taken from PSM podcast).
A guy playing the original Warhawk and GT4 with motion sensing & rumble:

http://bloggen.itavisen.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=137&Itemid=14

 

[PjotrStroganov]

So what? Amazon's one-click patent held up in court and that doesn't make it any less stupid. I find this whole situation hilarious because without Sony Immersion is basically out of business. Reaping what they sow and all that.

Again, They never received money from Sony and are still in business.

Or see? You can't detect the rate at which your vehicle is decelerating onscreen and instead have to rely on crude haptic feedback that's probably less accurate than the visual cues you're being given?

It is impossible to see the behaviour of the tire when it's in a state of maximum grip before locking up. The visual feedback isn't enough to anticipate the processes that go on under the hood.

With all due respect, you're completely failing to acknowledge the context in which I made the comment. Lapsed's claim is that motion-based control mechanisms make force feedback effects more important somehow, like tilting a gamepad rather than nudging a stick to steer a vehicle differs in some significant way that would simply make traditional audiovisual cues insufficient as feedback for the player, specifically with regard to collisions, apparently.

But then again, your comment did not really address his argument on the level of tilt combined with rumble either. His argument doesn't really put your comment in context.

You seem to have taken my comment as a complete renunciation of haptic feedback in general and nothing could be further from the truth. It's all well and good to say having something is better than not having it, but what we have in the console sector is the lowest hanging fruit and there's been no evolution for years, across generations of hardware. For the sake of argument you suggest we could just cut audio in the same vein because it's unnecessary too, but audio in games has evolved greatly over the years and has established itself as quite integral to the modern gaming experience, as a result.

When used correctly, sound is a usefull asset to gaming. But many gaming setups still use stereo sound. And that's enough for many. Even mono is enough to get a feel for the game. I know that people mute games when playin and listen to music. Doesn't this completely undo the evolution that has taken place? At least, I am guessing the evolution you mean is in the 3d realm. Off course loads of games require sound to be fully functional(although many don't require it) but the importance you give it is also too much credit to be given to be given to it. I still think my point is valid.

We're at a point in the evolution of haptic feedback mechanisms in gaming right now where the vast majority of that evolution is yet to happen. This "setback" is so insignificant in that regard and may actually help spur evolution rather than derail it - it's clear for example that Immersion, a company that sits on so much IP related to haptic feedback, is now starting to realize that they aren't doing much to nurture acceptance of their solutions and move the state of the art forward in this area by resting on their laurels and wasting time and resources on patent infringement suits.

It may. It may not. Let's hope it does.

Maybe rumble is still kind of crude. But it is an asset that has has become an integral part in my gaming experience and in that of others. An evolution of it would be even better but no support for it won't help it evolve when it comes to PS3 games.