• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"In the ... RPG Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean, I cried."

Amir0x

Banned
Wow, that is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. I mean, there's so many potential problems with this guys editorial that it's almost not worth the response to type it up.

But I'm bored AND a geek loser, so I don't see why not!

Take this still image from a PlayStation 3 game titled Heavy Rain. The woman character is called Mary Smith (quite the original name); the screen is produced in real time. This picture displays just how utterly powerful Sony's next-generation console is, with an almost lifelike woman aiming a cinematically out-of-focus gun before our eyes. The problem is she's a puppet without soul. Her tears, they seem so metallic; her eyes, too firm and unmoving, even for a still image; her face, too clean and without fearful scrunch. Some indescribable quality escapes this woman that makes her not entirely human; she is trapped in the Uncanny Valley.

First: The comparrison between Zelda and "Mary Smith" is already off to a bad foot in that the goal of Link in Zelda:TP is not to look MORE human-like, but stylized. If the supposition is that Wii can do 'stylized' games better, that is factually incorrect - PS3 and 360 have all the power in the world to create stylized games far more lush and attractive than anything Wii can fathom up.

It is, therefore, more relevant to compare one stylized game to another stylized game.

KameoStylizedSmall.jpg


vs.

6916ne.jpg


You can see that neither image is affected by the theory of "Uncanny valley", and the top image - opinion on artistic style aside - is still far more ahead technically. Advantage is in direction and talent of dev team.

There is no doubt that "Mary Smith" girl looks off, this is an issue with the development team and not an automatic "disadvantage" of more or less power - it is just as simple to create something approximating uncanny valley theory on Wii as it is on PS3 or 360. The differentiating factor is in talent and the ability to breathe that so-called 'soul' in with whatever particular style you're aiming for.

The rest of the article is pointless fluff and doesn't add a single damn thing to the article except vague 'feelings' and 'approximations' of emotions the writer may or may not be feeling when he wrote this for THEWIIRE, the unbiased source for all Wii information on the web. But his argument is not for UNCANNEY VALLEY and how PS3 and 360 are at a disadvantage for this.

His argument is purely about stylistic games vs. games that aim only to be realistic. In both stylistic AND realism PS3 and 360 have the potential to be greater, so his thesis fails on every conceivable level and is also embarrassing.
 
ccbfan said:
I love Nintendo Fanboy damage controls.

You think its can't get any worse but here we are talking about the worst damage control ever.

I mean the Sony and Microsoft crap is always the same.

Now Nintendo ones. Boy are they special. We might need two short buses to carry them around.

No, they're all the same: boring.
 
****, honostly, now Ami will come in here and make this thread ten times funnier yet ten times more painful to read.

I hate damage control.

EDIT: Beaten :lol
 
Mallrat83 said:
No, this is an actual theory. One which makes sense. The more real things get, the more we are likely to dissect them instead of taking them at face value. Look at what Pixar is doing. You know damn well they could be churning out stuff that rivals and even surpasses The Spirits Within by Square. Why don't they? Because it takes away some of the magic. With TSW, the focus wasn't on the story or the characters (which sucked anyways), but on how real it looked. And when you start to focus on the realism, it's only natural to start to nitpick and begin to build back up the barrier that Square was trying so hard to tear down. There is more character in on the Incredible characters than there is in any character from TSW.
Nothing to do with TSW being badly scripted...
 

Amir0x

Banned
BrandNew said:
****, honostly, now Ami will come in here and make this thread ten times funnier yet ten times more painful to read.

I hate damage control.

i hope to the living god or allah that you're talking about those damage controlling/defending the ARTICLE
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
Mary is very photo-realistic; Link is not. My subconscious mind is not attached to the woman, since she is not an extension of me, but another person entirely. Link, on the other hand, is not me, yet we are one and the same; I shoot the arrow as he does, I swing the sword as he does, I travel the world as he does.

peterflies2adj680h4ts.jpg
 

Spike

Member
I don't want my games to be too realistic. I mean, that's why I play games in the first place. Damn, if I want realism, I'll just turn on the news.

But, that's just me...
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Mallrat83 said:
No, this is an actual theory. One which makes sense. The more real things get, the more we are likely to dissect them instead of taking them at face value. Look at what Pixar is doing. You know damn well they could be churning out stuff that rivals and even surpasses The Spirits Within by Square. Why don't they? Because it takes away some of the magic. With TSW, the focus wasn't on the story or the characters (which sucked anyways), but on how real it looked. And when you start to focus on the realism, it's only natural to start to nitpick and begin to build back up the barrier that Square was trying so hard to tear down. There is more character in on the Incredible characters than there is in any character from TSW.

Pixar movie-quality? That's beyond anything the Wii is remotely capable of.
Indifferent2.gif
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
i agree with ya amirox...his thesis made no sense in the beginning, which makes his whole essay stupid.
 

Yoboman

Member
The problem is she's a puppet without soul. Her tears, they seem so metallic; her eyes, too firm and unmoving, even for a still image; her face, too clean and without fearful scrunch. Some indescribable quality escapes this woman that makes her not entirely human; she is trapped in the Uncanny Valley.

I disagree, her eyes and such weren't uncanny cause they lacked soul or emotion. That's exactly what made it uncanny, and that was exactly the effect they were trying to create. If it wasn't for the out of sync mouth it would be extremely difficult to tell it from real life because of how realistic the emotins displayed were
 

jGuru

Forza's and psycho_snakes official soccer ball-washer
Ami, you know that you don't need to poke holes in his stupid logic. Even if you're bored, it's not worth it.
 
Speevy said:
I think a Mario which looks like Snake in that picture would be wrong and freaky, so really, Nintendo made the decision which fits their company (and not necessarily others).

Well here you're contrasting the art styles, not the increase in overall detail being leveraged with more advanced hardware (which is what the original article argues against). Using an extreme example, a Link or Mario with Pixar level quality graphics in the same art style wouldn't suffer due to the 100 fold increase in fidelity and expressiveness. There characterizations would only be enhanced in the right hands. Like our boy Snake there.

Simply put, the Uncanney Valley has little to do with technology marching forward. Its always going to be down to the artists and programmers.
 

Amir0x

Banned
God I read the entire article. This guy is a closet Pikachu freak total.

In the GameCube RPG Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean, I cried. Yes, I shed actual tears when at the very end, the two main characters, Kalas and Xhela, find themselves in one another's arms, finally admitting their love as Kalas learns it can never be. All throughout the game, the character animations are rather lacking, but it's in this moment that the puppets fade away and two real people, consumed by a whirlwind of emotions, come forth. The camera is zoomed out and there are no tears on the faces of these two lovers, yet Mary Smith doesn't even come close to their emotional output, at least for me.

Jesus christ :lol
 

jGuru

Forza's and psycho_snakes official soccer ball-washer
In the GameCube RPG Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean, I cried. Yes, I shed actual tears when at the very end, the two main characters, Kalas and Xhela, find themselves in one another's arms, finally admitting their love as Kalas learns it can never be. All throughout the game, the character animations are rather lacking, but it's in this moment that the puppets fade away and two real people, consumed by a whirlwind of emotions, come forth. The camera is zoomed out and there are no tears on the faces of these two lovers, yet Mary Smith doesn't even come close to their emotional output, at least for me.

WOW :lol
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Amir0x said:
God I read the entire article. This guy is a closet Pikachu freak total.



Jesus christ :lol

OMG :lol :lol :lol

Oh man. This is like...Homeric in its epic scale of bullshititude.
 

terrene

Banned
jko said:
My take on this is if the power of the play station three is unable to create realistic life-like models, what the article touched on makes alot of sense...lifeless manikins ARE pretty creepy...
MAN - i - kin (n)
Smaller version of the human male; exhibits a bizarre aptitude for romanticizing low-grade technology
e.g.: Suprise, suprise -- some ****ing manikin Nintendo fan is doing damage control for the Wii on GAF today.
 
I almost felt for a second that I at least understood the point he was trying to make, but then I look at the photos again, and... I just dont buy that much realism being worse.
 

Kangu

Banned
Amir0x said:
The RPG made me CRY

This guy is insane. The Wii is driving people insane. We never saw articles this borderline delusional until the Wii was invented.

Seriously I can't wait for Tim Rogers to write an article about the Wii. He was insane way before it was revealed.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
:lol

That's a new spin! actually more realistic is worse since it looks less realistic than less realistic

* scratches head *
 

Tenkei

Member
And Advent Children would have looked so much better if it had used the original FFVII poly models. Right.
I decided to avoid reading the original article, but I studied the Uncanny Valley when I took a university course on cybernetics and society. The Uncanny Valley was used to refer to our reaction to robots exhibiting human-like traits. The more a robot appears realistic to us, the more we identify with it, until the realism is "too realistic to be comfortable"; we stop focusing on how similar the robot looks and acts like us and start looking at how much the robot *doesn't* act like us--the lack of the subtle, "realistic" touches. People become uncomfortable with

Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within is an application of the uncanny valley. Apart from it being a bad movie, the audience cannot for a moment think that the characters are "real"--their jerky movements, the hair that is never affected by the dirty environment, the lack of subtle muscle movements when the characters try to convey emotions. On the other hand, the audience immediately dismisses the lack of realism in a Pixar film or in a Miyazaki movie and instead focuses on how the characters express themselves. Animation is a powerful medium because people in the audience are allowed to let their imagination take over. Personally, I think it's because we recognise the characters in Advent Children from a video game some of us grew up with that we forgive the lack of nuances in their expression and instead focus on how much they kick ass.

Getting back to the point, the reason why it's called a valley is because once you make something look real *enough*, you overcome the valley and think of a robot or videogame character as human. I don't feel that we have reached that point yet, but I don't doubt that we will in the future.

EDIT:
Simply put, the Uncanney Valley has little to do with technology marching forward. Its always going to be down to the artists and programmers.
Makes my point in fewer words. =P
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Kangu said:
This guy is insane. The Wii is driving people insane. We never saw articles this borderline delusional until the Wii was invented.

Seriously I can't wait for Tim Rogers to write an article about the Wii. He was insane way before it was revealed.

Wiinsanity !!Megaton?
Indifferent2.gif
 
The expression is uncanny valley, not cliff. There is supposed to be a point where after movement and appearance are near exact, the characters will feel much more real. You make it sound like graphical progression towards realism should just stop completely.

I believe many of us would say good graphics are a plus but not necessarily a requirement. However few would say that progress in graphics is ruining the experience.
 

jGuru

Forza's and psycho_snakes official soccer ball-washer
I think that girl in Heavy Rain is really weird. I felt uncomforatble while watching the scene.
 
Mallrat83 said:
No, this is an actual theory. One which makes sense. The more real things get, the more we are likely to dissect them instead of taking them at face value. Look at what Pixar is doing. You know damn well they could be churning out stuff that rivals and even surpasses The Spirits Within by Square. Why don't they? Because it takes away some of the magic. With TSW, the focus wasn't on the story or the characters (which sucked anyways), but on how real it looked. And when you start to focus on the realism, it's only natural to start to nitpick and begin to build back up the barrier that Square was trying so hard to tear down. There is more character in on the Incredible characters than there is in any character from TSW.

Bingo!!

Ignorant fools don't understand this though because they're too busy masturbating to porn on their PSPs.:lol
 
Top Bottom