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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor
- Thread starter chubigans
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I had used GameMaker for three or four years before going to university and only had a cursory glance at ActionScript and C++ each. We learned Ruby and Java in our first semester, and I was the number-one student, to the point where other kids were paying me to tutor them. This continued into the following semester when we picked up Haskell and Python.
With that said, I'm back on the GameMaker bus. It's easier, faster to work with and I'm not trying to do anything super intense graphically or computationally.
Comments like these relate to what I am hopefully trying to say. People are different, and I want to tailor suggestions to modern times and specific people. I used to be a teaching assistant, and different students almost certainly learn things in different ways.
To put it another way, I think I have been programming 12+ years, have a M.S. in computer engineering, spend most of my time doing pretty low-level programming, have messed with a decent variety of languages (assembly/C/C++/BASIC/Scheme/C#/Java/Javascript/Perl/Unrealscript/GameMaker script)...and I'm even working on my own game engine basically from scratch! It has taken me ages especially since I am undisciplined and lack drive! It's horribly inefficient! I could have probably discovered if a game idea was terrible years ago if I had stuck with a tool! But no, this is the path I have chosen.
But would I recommend it for anyone else, or suggest an artist wanting to learn use similar approaches? Absolutely not. I do crazy things for my own crazy reasons, but even though programming languages and stuff probably "make sense" to me, I think not everyone is that way, and it is important to consider various factors about both people and tools.
I'll try to stop beating a dead horse now though. Long story short, I do like programming and if someone wants to learn it, more power to them...but even starting with scripting can be a motivating introduction to logic. And if someone starts with a tool and wants to switch to raw code, or starts with raw code and wants to switch to a tool, it's not a thing where you have to choose and then you forever are stuck with it. You can change your mind, and you can ask people questions! That's part of what we're here for, interactive learning.
Maybe someone else, knows what I did wrong. Currently using gamemaker, and I'm working on making terrains. I had a working character model, animations and all, but now when I compile, the character drops in and doesn't idle, will not move forward, back or jump, and is only able to switch directions. I would think it has something to do with physics, but I can't figure it out. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Heart of Black
Member
Fact - game designers in many big AAA companies are called "scripters".
Steve Gaynor, head of fullbright, learned Unreal script... and his game sold 50K in a short time at $20. That's $1,000,000 in gross revenue.
Also of note, who fucking cares if you use tools? So many games wouldn't exist without them. People act like when they make their own engine that it's somehow not something that the people who are working with now have to learn and abide by. It's all the same thing, except some tools make it way easier for creators to create, and some programming languages feel so second nature to the people who use them.
It's all the same, really.
Steve Gaynor, head of fullbright, learned Unreal script... and his game sold 50K in a short time at $20. That's $1,000,000 in gross revenue.
Also of note, who fucking cares if you use tools? So many games wouldn't exist without them. People act like when they make their own engine that it's somehow not something that the people who are working with now have to learn and abide by. It's all the same thing, except some tools make it way easier for creators to create, and some programming languages feel so second nature to the people who use them.
It's all the same, really.
bumpkin
Member
I'm building my own engine not because I necessarily look down on pre-fabs like Construct, Stencyl or Game Maker, but because I want the learning experience of doing so. The challenges contained therein are what drive me and always have me itching to get back and work on it some more when my actual job or non-work obligations tear me away.
Of course there are times when those challenges get absurdly frustrating and make me want to say "Screw it" and just use something pre-fab.
Of course there are times when those challenges get absurdly frustrating and make me want to say "Screw it" and just use something pre-fab.
It all depends on whether you want to be an engine programmer or not. I, for example, appreciate low-level programming and like doing crazy stuff such as when I tried to make a Snake for Game Boy Advance, but most of the time don't want to worry about all the complications that come with low-level code, so I chose to use stuff such as Unity and GameMaker.
Of course knowing how to code engine-level stuff is invaluable for when the pre-made tools you're using don't let you do that very specific thing you might want to pull off, for example, and having a solid grasp of programming logic and algorithm-building is also a great plus.
Who here is saying any of this?
no one is, just my personal view on things.
Roger.
I would suggest that the bolded is just plain not true. Has anyone in this thread started with a tool and ended up with scripting or programming? It sounds like Jobbs started from that angle.
Furthermore, if someone meets their own particular goals and their own particular timeframe with a tool, is there a need for them to go back? If they are happy with the capabilities, more power to them.
I think it is worth pointing out, not as a personal attack but just an observation, that you seem to have a very particular strongly-held set of views. For example, the 78-character forced linebreaks, because unlike everyone else, you prefer to use a particular text-formatting utility/editor rather than allow a web browser to format your posts in a readable fashion for all platforms. You are also very focused on low-level programming and math, and neither those aspects nor your own drive are likely to be applicable to an artist interested in starting to animate simple things on screen.
I started as a teenager messing with batch files and assembly language and QBASIC and logic circuits. I kept experimenting, but I would hardly recommend the same approach to someone else.
You do address some of the other aspects, but in particular:
1. As people point out, you can be frustrated with both a tool not making some detail work, AND trying to figure out why a low-level C bug is causing a failure. Or maybe (like I've experienced) you were using a library like SFML, and it just so turns out that it crashes on exit and you have to dig into the library to find out why! Educational? Yes. Recommended? Not yet.
2. Potentially hitting limitations or dislikes with certain tools is why I recommend they try a tool, then come back with questions. They find something confusing or problematic -- is it the end of the world because they didn't start with C? No, it's a learning opportunity. We, or someone else on the internet, can then explain why the problem is. Maybe it's something that Game Maker script solves very early on. Well then, that's an opportunity to learn Game Maker script like I mentioned!
What does Game Maker script (or Unity Script, or Unity C#, etc.) provide? Simple programming syntax, similar to Java/C/C++/C#/Python/whatever. Basic logic flow from that can be extended to other languages, should there be a need or a desire to go there.
Well, Blizzard, I think you got it entirely wrong. What I've written is just
my perspective, yet it's not my only one about the subject, but the one I
will suggest to a newcomer asking where to start game programming. If you
don't mind. And there is a reason I wrote all of this. And its not about to
support the C language / low-level programming or whatever you have indicated.
It's to encourage newcomers into game programming to use the best tool out
there, their very own brain ... before reaching out.
Kind of teaching children proper math before allowing them to use a
calculator. Give them a calculator before they can calculate rightfully and
they will never come back. Most of them will never be good at math later on.
A child simply stops thinking while using a calculator. But once they learned
the arithmetic rules rightfully they can do wonders using a calculator. I
taught some graduated engineers and chemists about Fourier Transformation,
Eigenvalue theory etc. in private sessions such that they could understand it
fully and way beyond what their course has thrown onto them. Said engineers
where masters in using tools like Matlab, Maple computing all kinds of cool
stuff without knowing what they really did. The rapid progress in universities
in producing results with tool has made them blind folded, unable to use their
brains, unable to go a step back from the heights their were sitting on -- up
until someone came around taking their sayings for granted. For sure, one can
go a long way without knowing how things works, yet it is questionable if one
will achieve the goals once painted in his head.
El Odio has said nowhere that he just wants to do only some little game
developing for fun, i.e. not to be taken seriously whatsoever. On the contrary,
he seems to be very encouraging; "... I'm a fairly decent artist, in my
opinion of course ...". So he seems to have some drive / attitude to get into
for real.
Which is pure hypothetical.
You would, if you really wanted. It's likeJack_AG wrote; "... If someone is passionate about it - there is nothing
stopping them ...". And btw; I think we are pretty good at thinking deep if
we are allowed to do so. But indeed, the world is moving so fast it is
difficult to gain focus.
show me your skeleton
Member
and here i am having trouble programming my vcr, amirightguys?
Which is pure hypothetical.
Jack_AG wrote; "... If someone is passionate about it - there is nothing
stopping them ...". And btw; I think we are pretty good at thinking deep if
we are allowed to do so. But indeed, the world is moving so fast it is
difficult to gain focus.
I'm still just hearing "programming seems pretty simple to me, therefore it's simple to anyone". People are different, they don't only have different interests and perspectives and life experiences, they also have entirely different ways of thinking all together.
Since the topic at hand seems to be whether it's a good idea to use tools and prebuilt engines and so on, I still say yes, for some people it's a very good thing. Even if you are a good programmer, for some types of games and some types of prototypes, systems like C2 or Stencyl or GM can get an idea up and working more fluidly and quickly than going at it some other route.
That's what you hear or perhaps even want to hear (?), but is never said and
never meant that way. And it is also very unimportant if I can do it or not.
It was never an assumption of mine made in any of my writings. Ever.
You were never asked to change your opinion ("I still say ...") or something.
It's not about to convince people about something. It's about showing ways one
can go. I hope you can see the difference, perhaps by re-reading my initial
post about this subject again, where I clearly indicated the usage of tools,
different languages etc. as well, yet showing a different vector of approach.
I guess my post was in response still to your previous post. I disagree with that post. I say for many people, the use of tools, for starting out or otherwise, can be a very good thing. And while you seem to characterize programming as easy, trust me, that's not the case for everyone.
As someone who creates various types of art and graphics and has been doing so for a long time, there are many things about color choice or movement or other visual details that I think are obvious and simple, but to some genius programmer they might not seem simple at all. And that's okay, I'm not going to tell that person or anyone else that it's simple. Everyone has their own way of doing things and relatively few of us are truly gifted at both programming and art (there are some, but such people are far less numerous than people who are strong only in one or the other). It's a real right side brain left side brain thing, there's a reason for it.
.
The passion may not get started, and may be actively killed, by certain obstacles. Different people are different.Which is pure hypothetical.
Jack_AG wrote; "... If someone is passionate about it - there is nothing
stopping them ...".
I agree people should use their brains to think about things, and for people considering careers in software engineering, starting with basics is good. I went through the math/engineering/computer science courses in college, and I'm glad for the foundation I had.
I have been trying to point out that game engine tools allow people to learn logic flow, with scripting, and move on to more advanced programming if they so desire. It seems to me that there may be some examples in the thread of people doing exactly that.
But when you basically seem to be telling someone, Jobbs, that they are wrong when they are trying to explain their own experiences and passions? That seems disrespectful, to me. I think we should listen to what people say rather than try to make them fit our own paradigms of what we believe is best.
I think missile puts it well, but in my opinion, C is way too low level for someone starting out. I started in C and it almost sucked my interest in programming out of me. Luckily, I found C#/XNA shortly after, which was the perfect abstraction level for me. I think the right abstraction level will be different for everyone because of the opportunity cost of learning in lower level of abstraction. I would recommend artists start even higher level than that, because otherwise they would be squandering time that could be spent developing their skill as an artist.
Yep. There are a lot of artists and designers where programming is the barrier in the way of getting what they want; They don't particularly care about programming itself. To a lot of programmers, I think programming itself is the curiosity, it is the goal, it is what they want to excel more at. For me it's just this thing in the way of making a game and I have my sights set on solo projects in the future that would almost certainly involve one of the game making tools. I love it. So, yeah, it depends a lot on what you want to do.
I see myself alot in your post.
Artist for passion, designer for work, last year I came up with a gaming concept I really wanted (and still want and try) to realize but I'm struggling in the process.
At the moment, Italy doesn't really seem the right place where to develop my idea and I found working with people from other countries more complicated than I thought (due to everyone's life matters, different time-zones... Little things, basically, which added to each other caused way bigger problems).
I'm here, looking at the game's development log, feeling a bit frustrated because... I think - I really believe it, without any arrogance - there is good, solid material in it (not only done by me, I've got many wonderful contributions by other artists and designers) and I don't have the skills to finalize it myself.
I know how to make this game good, just as I'd like it to be, but I lack the tools in order to get the whole work done.
It sounds way more drama than it really is, but I'd still appreciate a honest suggestion from you (it would be great if I could show you the whole thing, so you may have a better picture of the project).
Should I put it all on pause and take the time to learn programming? I've got zero basics, so I have no idea about how long it would take... Months? Years?
I also come to this in my late 30s so I feel like time is not exactly on my side.
Should I just give up and see if I can sell/give my idea to proper developers?
I ask you because the few indie people I really think of the most and look at as reference points - you, Noogy, the guy behind Valdis Story... - seem to me one-man-bands, rather than proper game development studios.
Thanks in advance!
Well, it depends on what your idea is. Scripting tools like Stencyl, C2, and to some extent Game Maker are much better suited to some types of games than others. If you're creative, much is possible, but it's hard to give a solid recommendation without knowing what type of game it is.
That said, I do recommend above scripting tools. If you are completely brand new to programming concepts, Stencyl actually is a good place to start. The visual programming is similar to MIT's scratch project, and it's highly intuitive. Take some tutorials, ask questions on the forums, once you get a grasp of the fundamentals a ton of possibilities open up.
C2 (Construct 2) is a similar tool in many ways, and in my estimation a bit more powerful at the present time in terms of its features, however, I don't think its logic building is as intuitive and approachable as Stencyl's. But even still, it's also a good choice if you take the tutorials and follow along.
These things can be picked up pretty quickly if you are motivated; You don't have to think in terms of months. In DAYS you can be on your way -- Again, if motivated and following tutorials and asking questions!
There's also Game Maker, which, in my opinion is probably the most powerful of any of these three tools, and many high profile, great games have been made using it. However, based on my experience, it's not quite as approachable as the other programs when it comes to making legit games, because you pretty much have to learn GML (which I understand is much like Javascript) in order to do anything beyond the most rudimentary stuff. The drag and drop type behaviors included in GML exist but are extremely limited, and in my estimation of very limited use beyond being a toy for beginners.
You could start by getting your feet wet with Stencyl or C2, and then tackle Game Maker and try to learn GML. GM has some solid tutorials built into it that cover all topics, and a bustling community. I may get into GM next time, myself.
Thank you SO much, sir.
I truly appreciate your tips: now I have a starting point and it all sounds prerry exciting.
I'll send you a PM too.
GameMaker Standard is still free until the 2nd, so I'd give it a shot. It may even push/ease you into learning some form of programming. I was planning on use the drag and drop system to start, but then I thought to myself, "I can either constantly hover over and learn what these 60 icons mean, or try a little programming".
Mr_Appleby
Member
i am an engine builder and i definitely fall in to this camp. i just love programming. i've tried to use tools like unity but the design paradigm doesn't mesh with my brain. when i start to create a game i don't think in terms of level layout - unity's empty scene just seems like another world - but the various systems that are going to be running. my few brushes with unity basically resulted in me doing everything through scripting and never touching the unity interface except for some debugging.
engine building is time consuming though, and i must've restarted three times in the last year as I learnt new things. So the latest revision (hah!) I've tried to separate the engine from the game by having everything run through a Lua API. That way I get to write my games in the neat and concise language that is Lua, and also tinker in the guts of it in C.
Visual art is my bugbear. I can visualize in my head well enough but never quite translate it to a drawing or model, though I try anyway. We all have our different skills and interests and the world would be a poorer place if we were all coders or all artists, if only one kind of person could make games*.
*
there is only one kind, crazy
No. You will need years to get good at C# (even longer for C/C++). You might be able to get something working within a few months, but there is a lot of relevant material to cover, even if you skip a lot of the no-calculator stuff missile was talking about. Not to sound so demotivational, but it really would be a huge investment of your time and your art will suffer. I'm not familiar with the scripting tools mentioned, but you should definitely take a look at those since you're an artist.
PS: The original Spelunky was made in Game Maker. A lot is possible with scripting tools.
PPS: If your art/ideas are good enough, you can always recruit or hire a programmer. See: Fez
To name a few more: Valdis Story, Legend of Iya, Samurai Gunn, Hyper Light Drifter, Savant, Nidhogg, Murder in the Hotel Lisbon (a P&C adventure game), and I believe most if not all of Vlambeer's games (correct me if I'm wrong).
Ehhhh.... Ehhhh... If he wants to build his own engine, sure. If he's using tools like Unity, GM, etc then no. Those aren't low-level platforms (well, Unity, to an extent, but it isnt required) but he doesn't need years.
Even using straight drag-n-drop IS scripting, you just aren't typing anything yourself. What is the difference between dragging and dropping logic vs writing it yourself? Just the dot syntax. If someone can understand what logic goes where, the translation is almost direct to dot syntax. The hardest part of programming is logic, not the language, itself. Anyone can memorize dot syntax, its like memorizing any phrase, phone number, movie quote, etc. This will always produce that. That will always produce this. This is what you want to use here. That is what you want to use there.
I will say, outside of understanding logic, a huge barrier is knowing what dot syntax is available in any platform (Thank you docs!). But dragging and dropping is scripting without writing any code. The logic is there and thats the most difficult part and usually presents the highest barrier to entry. If I gave even a tool like GM to someone without any knowledge of programming, they would still have no clue where to start. What does this mean/do? How can I combine X and Y to produce Z effect? Its the logic that gets in the way for beginners, not text or icons on a screen.
Learning everything for low-level programming can take years and years. Learning the basics and a really REALLY solid grasp of logic - months at most. It is honestly statements that keep saying coding is hard, takes years to learn, etc that scare people away.
Its text on a screen. It always functions the exact same way. There are no surprises. Knowing how to use those tools is the hard part. That has more to do with problem solving than any language difficulty. Hell, he can learn C# while working in Unity as he makes a project. GML while making a game in GM.
You can give someone all the drag-n-drop they need to make World of Warcraft, Crysis, Uncharted. If they dont understand the logic, it will never happen. The same is true with programming. You can learn EVERYTHING inside and out but if you suck at logic and the only thing you can do is regurgitate from a book vs thinking outside the box to solve problems on your own, it will never happen.
We need to get past his "programming is hard herp derp" mumbo jumbo and call it like it is - it isnt hard, its the logic that gets you - which remains true if its text or a drag n drop editor. Newcomers need to understand that its problem solving that is important, not text, not icons - problem solving. If they want to choose text over icons or icons over text, that won't matter in the beginning, what will matter is the aptitude to solve problems. Knowing logic of state machines is important.
#screenshotsaturday
Shows off some attack patterns of a new boss creature. Also some evasive dashing movements of the player. I did a decent job looping the .gif.
I see that I'm not the only one trying to make Dark Souls combat
Good work.
Looking great! If I were to make one nit-picking suggestion, it would be that the rate the light around the player flashes is irritating in my opinion. If that kind of constant medium-high frequency flashing is in the game often, it could be annoying. One thing you might try, if it is because of a flickering light, is to make it be steady for a couple of seconds, then flicker, then steady, etc. I don't know if your current tool/engine allows a timeline like this, but some do. I think that also might provide the benefit of making it look more natural.
Mystic River
Member
Added shuttles to my game a week ago and now I can move crew between ships with it.
more info at http://mysticrivergames.blogspot.com/2014/03/shuttles-and-many-more-options.html
more info at http://mysticrivergames.blogspot.com/2014/03/shuttles-and-many-more-options.html
There's no flashing on the character that I'm aware of. What do you mean?
The light dropping down the shaft surrounding the character, at least on my screen, is growing and shrinking multiple times a second in a flickering fashion. And/or getting brighter and dimmer. Part of it might be GIF dithering but I'm not sure.
that's a light ray contextual to the area, I was a bit confused at first, it sounded like you thought the player itself was flashing. and yeah the gif is adding some artifacts and banding.
and thanks
Soooooooooooo .... when will you release the trailer? I am really looking forward to that one, every screen/gif you post looks great.
Man... when I started my project I really had no idea how many copies I'd eventually sell. I was just thrilled to be making a game, I had no intention to actually make a living doing so.
Today Dust: An Elysian Tail surpassed one million units sold across XBLA, Steam, GOG, and Humble Bundle. I don't think I'm allowed to think of it as a niche title anymore. Thanks to everyone for their support! And I hope it gives some hope to my fellow developers. Make something cool!
Today Dust: An Elysian Tail surpassed one million units sold across XBLA, Steam, GOG, and Humble Bundle. I don't think I'm allowed to think of it as a niche title anymore. Thanks to everyone for their support! And I hope it gives some hope to my fellow developers. Make something cool!
grats noogy!
Deserved! Congrats!
Mystic River
Member
well deserved! congratulations!
Congratulations on selling so many. Your game is great. I have one from the bundle if anyone wants it.
noogy living the dream!
I hope he didn't hit such a high level of success that there's no FIRE under him to make his next big game. I want the next noogy game.
p.s. about six of those million were from me. I bought it on 360, I bought it on steam four times, and I bought it on humble bundle.
I hope he didn't hit such a high level of success that there's no FIRE under him to make his next big game. I want the next noogy game.
p.s. about six of those million were from me. I bought it on 360, I bought it on steam four times, and I bought it on humble bundle.
Whitebison
Member
Deserved Noggy!!
We should try some kind of fusion, man. Like in Dragon Ball Z.
Totally deserved. I loved Dust on my 360.
I wish you to do even better with your next project.
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