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Indie Games [April] Now Voting - Post 635!

fr3shme4t

Neo Member
4€ is a low price, but you need to work on your web presence quite a bit. The current webpage doesnt really give any incentive to try/buy the game at all. No ingame screenshots (battles, world map, towns..), no feature list of whats currently in the game/alpha that people can buy, Update schedules/game progress and things that will go into the game soon, etc.

If I were to randomly stumble upon your website, I definitely wouldnt purchase the game/alpha because the website is missing way too much information on basically everything. I see you asked this in your forums:


You probably should make working on these questions and your web presence your biggest priority for now if you want others to check it out.

That was quick!

Toma, thanks for the feedback. I totally agree with you, my web presense is weak. Fixing that is my first priority, and what I'm literally doing now.

For what it's worth, I don't expect many people to buy my game at this stage. I am really just looking for feedback from gamers.

But yeah, not having ingame screen shots or even a feature list is pretty inexcusable...
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
That was quick!

Haha, feel free to mention it again once you got a bit more information up :) Currently, I wouldnt even know whether I am interested in helping with your project/giving feedback, so there is no reason to spend 4€ on the current build.
 

fr3shme4t

Neo Member
Haha, feel free to mention it again once you got a bit more information up :) Currently, I wouldnt even know whether I am interested in helping with your project/giving feedback, so there is no reason to spend 4€ on the current build.

Clearly my website DOES sucks, because it's playable for free in the browser...
(Click on the sceen shot)
 
That was quick!

Toma, thanks for the feedback. I totally agree with you, my web presense is weak. Fixing that is my first priority, and what I'm literally doing now.

For what it's worth, I don't expect many people to buy my game at this stage. I am really just looking for feedback from gamers.

But yeah, not having ingame screen shots or even a feature list is pretty inexcusable...

I agree with Toma, but I would add you might want to add a 'click here to start the game' message on the online version, it is easy to mistake as just an image then a unity game. Anyway, seems like a competent solid engine thus far, the overworld map and first person dungeons is ticking this old school itch which is cool. It seems like their is a lot to do, but I am very interested in this concept of this randomly generated rpg worlds it has. Good luck, you've got a potentially very good idea there.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Clearly my website DOES sucks, because it's playable for free in the browser...
(Click on the sceen shot)

I agree with Toma, but I would add you might want to add a 'click here to start the game' message on the online version, it is easy to mistake as just an image then a unity game. Anyway, seems like a competent solid engine thus far, the overworld map and first person dungeons is ticking this old school itch which is cool. It seems like their is a lot to do, but I am very interested in this concept of this randomly generated rpg worlds it has. Good luck, you've got a potentially very good idea there.

Oops, yeah. I didnt even notice that I can start it by clicking and thought its just a screenshot. You might want to add the suggested "Click here to start" button on the picture.
 

gabbo

Member
Website issues aside, the game is alright, a few thoughts:

The action button on the left needs to be made more obvious or put somewhere else, as I didn't even notice it existed when I would travel over an area I could enter (mines, etc).

If traps aren't meant to be obvious in any to the player, then well done. If they're meant to be noticed and disarmed/walked around, then something needs to be done to make them more apparent. I managed to walk into every single trap there seemingly was and didn't realize it until after I had taken the damage.

Please keep in mind I don't play this particular type of game often (if ever), so I have no idea what kind of conventions I may be asking you to break with those two comments.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
A few other things/impressions:

1. I saw the traps and "sprung" them while not standing on the tile by clicking on them, yet still got the damage. Why?

2. Add the missing arrows into the UI and allow for an option to turn it off completely if you play with the keyboard.

3. Equipping the Gladius didnt show the improvement over the old weapon

4. Monsters with different strength should be noticed as such. I just got killed by a 125EXP monster rat, while the normal ones were 25EXP. Make stronger enemies of the same race differently coloured at least.

5. The mapping feature works pretty nicely.

6. More hotkeys (map?) and an option menu to reconfigure the bindings

7. Currently, it seems to be mostly fighting? You should think about how to add randomly generated puzzles to the dungeons (Did you play Grimrock? That would probably be a good source of inspiration)

8. Considering you already got quite a few features in here (Items, level ups, equipment, spells, randomly generated dungeons, overworld), you definitely should create a "whats currently in the game" comment on your website. For a 0.1.0 version, thats already pretty good progress.

Just finished the first dungeon, and overall I gotta say I am pretty impressed with the foundation here. The game is still missing some polish and options (I reeeeally dont like the style of the avatars), but it definitely works nicely so far. Is this planned as a mobile release? The UI makes it seem like it because its so HUGE. If it isnt, you might want to reconsider the UI design/layout.
 

fr3shme4t

Neo Member
Thanks for the quick feedback everyone, I've already taken action based on your advice (added screenshots and big CLICK HERE to the demo)!

Gabbo - The traps aren't supposed to be too obvious - you're supposed to be looking where you step - but they shouldn't be that hard to spot that you're running over all of them. So maybe I have to do some tweaking so they don't blend in so much.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Thanks for the quick feedback everyone, I've already taken action based on your advice (added screenshots and big CLICK HERE to the demo)!

Gabbo - The traps aren't supposed to be too obvious - you're supposed to be looking where you step - but they shouldn't be that hard to spot that you're running over all of them. So maybe I have to do some tweaking so they don't blend in so much.

I added some more impressions to my previous post above yours. I actually think the traps blend in fine, I managed to see them all the time and it was just my impatience getting the better of me. Dont make them more obvious, Gabbo is just blind :p But why did I get damage when standing NEXT to the trap and clicking on it? Wasnt that meant as an action to disarm it?
 

fr3shme4t

Neo Member
A few other things/impressions:
1. I saw the traps and "sprung" them while not standing on the tile by clicking on them, yet still got the damage. Why?

2. Add the missing arrows into the UI and allow for an option to turn it off completely if you play with the keyboard.

3. Equipping the Gladius didnt show the improvement over the old weapon

4. Monsters with different strength should be noticed as such. I just got killed by a 125EXP monster rat, while the normal ones were 25EXP. Make stronger enemies of the same race differently coloured at least.

5. The mapping feature works pretty nicely.

6. More hotkeys (map?) and an option menu to reconfigure the bindings

7. Currently, it seems to be mostly fighting? You should think about how to add randomly generated puzzles to the dungeons (Did you play Grimrock? That would probably be a good source of inspiration)

8. Considering you already got quite a few features in here (Items, level ups, equipment, spells, randomly generated dungeons, overworld), you definitely should create a "whats currently in the game" comment on your website.

Just finished the first dungeon, and overall I gotta say I am pretty impressed with the foundation here. The game is still missing some polish and options (I reeeeally dont like the style of the avatars), but it definitely works nicely so far. Is this planned as a mobile release? The UI makes it seem like it because its so HUGE. If it isnt, you might want to reconsider the UI design/layout.

Thanks! Great feedback!
The reason I'm calling it an Alpha is because it's pretty much just the foundation. Still lots to add/fix/tweak.

As for you questions:
1. Traps:
You only have a % to disable them based on your Rogue's level and trap level. Clearly that needs to be comunicated (or cut? not sure if it's needed, I think it can be annoying)

2. 6. UI: Yep, keyboard hotkeys are needed, plus a configuration screen too.

3. Gladius probably had same stats as your current weapon. I'll probably make it so that each weapon is at least slightly different.

4. The higher lv rat should have been larger in size, but that might not be obvious unless they're standing next to each other, maybe I should exagerate that effect. I'm using colour already to different variations (skills/powers). Currently LV'd up monsters are too strong for their LV, so it's not balanced that well yet.

7. It's just fighting for now, which will get boring. I have tons of ideas to shake things up and make exploring more varied, and yeah I've played Grimlock. I need to figure out how to generate interesting puzzles, otherwise you'll keep seeing the same puzzle over and over.

8. Yeah, now that my game is public I'll have to really step up the webpage and updates

When I started I was actually going to target mobile, but I decided to go with PC first. So that's why a lot of the UI has huge buttons. I'm holding off on a large UI clean up until I've nailed down the functionality more.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Thanks! Great feedback!
The reason I'm calling it an Alpha is because it's pretty much just the foundation. Still lots to add/fix/tweak.

As for you questions:
1. Traps:
You only have a % to disable them based on your Rogue's level and trap level. Clearly that needs to be comunicated (or cut? not sure if it's needed, I think it can be annoying)

2. 6. UI: Yep, keyboard hotkeys are needed, plus a configuration screen too.

3. Gladius probably had same stats as your current weapon. I'll probably make it so that each weapon is at least slightly different.

4. The higher lv rat should have been larger in size, but that might not be obvious unless they're standing next to each other, maybe I should exagerate that effect. I'm using colour already to different variations (skills/powers). Currently LV'd up monsters are too strong for their LV, so it's not balanced that well yet.

7. It's just fighting for now, which will get boring. I have tons of ideas to shake things up and make exploring more varied, and yeah I've played Grimlock. I need to figure out how to generate interesting puzzles, otherwise you'll keep seeing the same puzzle over and over.

8. Yeah, now that my game is public I'll have to really step up the webpage and updates

When I started I was actually going to target mobile, but I decided to go with PC first. So that's why a lot of the UI has huge buttons. I'm holding off on a large UI clean up until I've nailed down the functionality more.

1. Dont cut it! Its a feature less ;p And gives people a bigger incentive to take a rogue with them instead of a fighter. But yeah, there should be something like a pop up when clicking on a trap (You have X% to disarm the trap), and you need to inform the player that its influenced by the rogue somehow.

3. Nope, the gladius changed my attack to 10 points stronger, but somehow it didnt show as +10 when I clicked on it like it did for the spear.

4. Yeah, the higher level rat wasnt big enough then to point out the difference (if it even was bigger). Good idea , still needs some balancing/checking however.

Ah, gotcha. Just saying that because the UI is what a player sees aaaall of the time, so its rather important for a first impression as well. But honestly, good going so far! Really impressive start.
 
I love this thread as much as I hate this thread. There are too many great games here. I'm playing La Mulana at the moment and I have tons of other games to play, so why does this constantly refreshing abundance of indie titles exist? I'm buried in games!
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
I love this thread as much as I hate this thread. There are too many great games here. I'm playing La Mulana at the moment and I have tons of other games to play, so why does this constantly refreshing abundance of indie titles exist? I'm buried in games!

30-50 new ones in a week! ;p
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Setting up Windows again after a PC crash is FUN! I also lost all the Indies I downloaded in the past few months. Gotta remind myself to redownload some tomorrow:

Clairvoyance
TowerClimb
MayhemTriple
 

Noogy

Member
Setting up Windows again after a PC crash is FUN! I also lost all the Indies I downloaded in the past few months. Gotta remind myself to redownload some tomorrow:

Clairvoyance
TowerClimb
MayhemTriple

Aw man, sorry to hear that :p
 

zkylon

zkylewd
ok, really enjoyed kentucky route zero for what it was. it kinda reminded me of home, with the decisions making the story as you go along, I really enjoy that in games, like when you get to choose your past and your motives based on passing dialogue.

anyone here played depression quest?
 

wilflare

Member
Setting up Windows again after a PC crash is FUN! I also lost all the Indies I downloaded in the past few months. Gotta remind myself to redownload some tomorrow:

Clairvoyance
TowerClimb
MayhemTriple

really want Clairvoyance on the Vita. haha but the dev mentioned explicitly nothing is planned for that :/
 

OnPoint

Member
Are we not excited for Rex Rocket?

* Youtube trailer
* Kickstarter page
* Greenlight page

What is Rex Rocket
Inspired by the retro glory days of 8-bit games, Rex Rocket is a traditional 2D platformer brought into the 21st century. Paying tribute to classic NES platformers like Mario, Mega Man, and Metroid, old-school platformer fans will find Rex Rocket a breath of fresh air. Rob and Tyler, two passionate indie game devs, have a mission to keep the world of retro games alive. Rex Rocket features one-of-a-kind handmade pixel art, over 100 handcrafted levels connected in an expansive starship filled with a wide variety of puzzles, enemies, hazards and bosses. To top it off, we have an an orginal, kick-♥♥♥ chiptunes soundtrack by Saskrotch. Creating this universe and the memorable characters in this game has been a true labor of love.


What is it about?
Set in Earth's distant future, Rex Rocket references the classic story of Man vs. Machine. You play as Captain Rex Rocket, a former war hero who now spends his days transporting scientists around to the far reaches of the universe in his epic Star Cruiser, the S.S. Montana. The game begins on Earth with Rex and crew on a routine mission for the Council of Science, to transplant bio-engineered Terra-Oozlings to an uninhabited planet in the far away solar system of Washington. While the ship's crew are all in cryo-sleep, all heck breaks loose when Terra-Oozings escape their tanks and cause the ship's main computer, LAUREN (Logic Analysis User Reactive Entity Network), to go insane. It's up to Rex Rocket to stop the computer,rescue his crew, and save the day!

Screens:

3e35540c7ffe887489cc21935878973c_large.png


c7287670d94c018d6567803b41633ef9_large.png


873d40b63204d9f13c9862ee361abb97_large.png
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
really want Clairvoyance on the Vita. haha but the dev mentioned explicitly nothing is planned for that :/
Well, we get the superior Frozen Synapse, which is good enough for me :p
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Grah, I just noticed that I lost my Vesper progress due to my PC crash. :(
...will I start my journey anew?
 

Hofmann

Member
Setting up Windows again after a PC crash is FUN! I also lost all the Indies I downloaded in the past few months. Gotta remind myself to redownload some tomorrow:

Clairvoyance
TowerClimb
MayhemTriple

Grah, I just noticed that I lost my Vesper progress due to my PC crash. :(
...will I start my journey anew?

Well, that sucks. It's one of those few negative sides of PC gaming.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Remembering - It's Free. Have yet to try it, but the team made Bohm - one of the IGF Nuovo Award Finalists' from 2011 - and the trailer looks amazing.


You can find a lot of cool things on Twitter.

You can find lots of cool things everywhere, especially Indie Games. I have no clue why some of these arent bigger yet.
 

Hofmann

Member
You can find lots of cool things everywhere, especially Indie Games. I have no clue why some of these arent bigger yet.

Yeah, you're right, some places are really helpful at gathering the ''goods'', though - like TIGSource Forums' Devlogs. Just stumbled upon Pioneers and it seems to be one among many other interesting games out there.

So, what is this game about? Well it's a turn based exploration game with some RPG elements where you lead a party of pioneers each with different professions, skills and attributes. You start out in a town where you first have to assemble your party from the tavern, plan out and buy equipment you need from the supply store and get yourself a ship. Or two. Then by conversing with different people you get quests, which may be to follow the steps of the previous explorers that never came back and find out what happened, find treasures, compose an accurate map, find contact with unknown native tribes and 'export' religion or simply be the first to disover a piece of the world. You do all that while surviving the harsh environments with seasons that change each bringing with them a different set of challenges, fighting wildlife and tribespeople, finding food and water and trying not to die of dysentery. With each part of the world you discover, you gain access to larger regions further away from home. It's not that you couldn't go there to begin with but you need more men and supplies, which means you need to collect more wealth beforehand.

What else can you do? One crucial, sort of, aspect of the game will be communication. You see, when you encounter an unknown tribe you are not able to understand them because they speak an unknown language. All foreign communication in the game takes place in form of icons/symbols/glyphs that you have to decipher. To make the players life easier, animals and tribes both share the same system. When you see a wolf start to attack you and this certain icon appears over its head you better remember this, because when you interact with some tribes and the same icon appears, you know you better get out of there.

 

Vlad

Member
The recent talk of Clairvoyance reminded me of one of my all-time favorite turn-based games that really doesn't get enough love: Toribash

After talking about it with Toma for a little bit, he asked me to bring the game to the attention of the thread.

And yes, it's not an upcoming game or something recently released, but it is quite indie and worth checking out.

So, this is Toribash:


Before getting into it, a little background: Toribash is a turn-based, physics-based fighting game. How it works is that there are two combatants (I'm the green-and-blue one), and each of those balls that the characters are made out of is a joint that you manipulate on your turn. Each joint can either be rigid, relaxed, bend one way, or bend another. On top of that, you can grab the other player (basically just stick your hand to them). What happens in a match is that while you're doing this, the other player is doing the same, and once a timer runs down, the game progresses for a set number of frames while both characters move according to the way the joints were set, then the game pauses again while the players adjust their joints again. Just as an example, I'll use a single-player game I set up, which is just practice against a dummy.

After my first move, I press the space bar, and 70 frames pass:


And I've grabbed the dummy's arm with one hand while throwing the rest of my body off to my left.

See the blue ghosts in that picture? Those show when it's time to take your turn and illustrate what the current move for you will play out like.

So right now, I've got a good grip on poor Uke here, and most of me is off to one side. If I can pull him to the left while throwing my leg over to the right, I should be able to do some damage. I adjust my joints again and let the next 70 frames play out...



Success! It might be hard to tell from the still picture, but I've managed to a sort of backwards kick to the training dummy which cut him right in half. There are lots of different game modes which allow for different victory conditions, but in this one, an opponent is disqualified if anything other than his hands or feet touches the ground. Those legs are going down fast, so I think this match against a training dummy is as good as mine...



And that's that. Once a match is done, the game shows you a replay without the pauses, which looks like so:

vmnBBBF.gif


So while messing around with a lifeless dummy is actually loads of fun and great practice, the meat of the game is its multiplayer. There are no pre-made moves here, any punch/kick/throw/whatever you do here is done entirely by your manipulation of the joints. It's almost QWOP-ish in how clumsy it can be, but once you get used to it, the results can be spectacular. You can....

Pick a guy up and drop him on his head.
ia4L6Fz.gif


Drop down to the floor, grab your opponent's hand, then use your leverage to whip him around, slamming him to the floor.
rmPoAfT.gif


Or, if you're feeling like being a jerk, just picking a guy up and sort of lunge-tossing him out of the arena entirely.
cfj3EeG.gif


The mode in those gifs is a little different from the first one, in that anybody going outside the arena with any body part gets DQed, which allows for a different strategy.

But hey, don't feel like a straight-up fight? Then try one of the game's 1,500+ included mods, like fighting in front of a cannon.


Or under a giant pendulum:


Best of all, the game is entirely free to play, and not that crappy kind of "free to play", either. You can use real money to buy in-game money, but all of it is for cosmetic stuff.
 

Gbraga

Member
Please someone just make a thread for this gorgeous game already. Already pledged and really hope they make it, a new thread for their Kickstarter would probably help a lot.

And I hope they release some high res pictures so I can use as wallpaper on my phone.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Voting!

Why?
Because we want to offer people who first step into the thread an easy go-to list for great games. Plus it gives more attention to the titles that really deserve it.

How?
Everyone votes on his top 5 games out of the ones that already have been released AND are mentioned in the OP (So everything in Post 2). I'll tally the results and put the best 5 in the next thread. Feel free to vote for games that you deem "important" or the ones that you enjoyed the most. Since this is a rather communicative thread, feel free to include a short description why these games ended up on your list or a "honorable" mention if you feel that one game deserves another mention even though it wont count for your list. That way it would also make it interesting to read which games we should check out that others might have enjoyed. You dont need to "rank" the 5 games. Every list entry gets 1 point for the overall ranking.

When?
This thread is still open until the end of march, so you can drop your list in here whenever you want. You can also change your list up to the last day. I wont start the count before the month is over, so everyone has still time to revise their lists and play some games. Speaking of which, if you dont even KNOW 5 games to vote for, there are plenty free and short games in the OP to check out. Most of which are rather short too. Use the remaining week to catch up with 1 or 2 titles you didnt get around to yet!

Which?
Since the list got rather long, here is the complete list of games to vote for for this month:

A Nation of Wind
Alter Ego: Dreamwalker
Atum
BroForce
Bloomfairy
Cart Life
Clairvoyance
Cook, Serve, Delicious
Darkout (which is currently in this bundle: http://groupees.com/more, which also contains the fantastic Draconian Wars)
Door Kickers
Driftmoon
Dungeon Hearts
Freedom Planet
Gearscape
Great Permutator
Intrusion 2
Legends of Aethereus
Marvin's Mittens
Monster Loves You
Mort the Intern
OpenRA
Order of Twilight
Overlight
Qasir Al-Wasat
Reprisal
Super House of Dead Ninjas
Sword of the Stars: The Pit
The Plan
The Castle Doctrine
Triad
Teleglitch
Unepic
Waking Mars
War of the Human Tanks
Wooden Sen'SeY
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Narrowed my voting list down to 11, now its getting tricky.
 

Nillansan

Member
Gunpoint is coming to Steam soon, which was already thanks to the Steam Registry, but here you have the official announcement.

i7bJwbS.jpg


Most of you probably already know about this game. You play a freelance spy, your clients hire you to break into high security buildings and steal sensitive data.

Here is a run-down of the different gadgets that will be at your disposal + the Steam announcement:

Youtube Video

More Information
 

Wok

Member

My five top game are the following ones:
  • Clairvoyance: Clairvoyance is a fun multiplayer strategy game. I have spent a few hours on this, thanks to Toma's OT.
  • Qasir Al-Wasat: A Night in-Between: the game takes place in an usual place, with a compelling story, original for a video game, more classical for a tale. There are lots of puzzles, some of which are pretty hard.
  • Waking Mars: an indie game which I would never had played had it not been part of a humble bundle. The game introduces different game mechanics progressively, the voices are great, and in the end, I felt like exploring the world; so there must be something with this game.
  • Wooden Sen'SeY: although the game is short and the difficulty quickly ramps up, the visuals and the music are truly enjoyable.
  • Cook, Serve, Delicious!: there is something addictive with this game, I don't know why, but I can tell this is thanks to the huge amount of work and polish done by the dev.
 
I'm screwed.

I narrowed my list down to six, but there is no way I can leave any of them out, they're all outstanding.

What the hell do I do now? :(
 

zkylon

zkylewd
hmm I should actually give cart life the time it deserves so at least I can vote for something but I really wish I had a few hints like what to do at night or something
 
Draw straws?

Seriously now, I'm stumped. I feel like there is no way I can leave any of the six out, it would be a crime. This month has been really amazing.

I'm tempted to wait until the last day, tally how many votes each of the six has received, and leave out the one with the most votes. Even that wouldn't be fair, but it's the least unfair solution I can think of. :(

It's so much harder with indie games, because you know they poured their love and souls into these amazing games, and it's as if you slapped them in the face personally. :S

hmm I should actually give cart life the time it deserves so at least I can vote for something but I really wish I had a few hints like what to do at night or something

Cart Life is one of my six. Approach it less as a game and more as an experience, chat to every NPC about every topic (reload the game if needed be). The dialogue is bounds and leaps above most games, indie or not, and I found myself caring about the characters in minutes.
Also, at night you should sleep! Game gives HARSH penalties and locks down most options if you don't eat or sleep enough.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Seriously now, I'm stumped. I feel like there is no way I can leave any of the six out, it would be a crime. This month has been really amazing.

I'm tempted to wait until the last day, tally how many votes each of the six has received, and leave out the one with the most votes. Even that wouldn't be fair, but it's the least unfair solution I can think of. :(

It's so much harder with indie games, because you know they poured their love and souls into these amazing games, and it's as if you slapped them in the face personally. :S

Lets say I'll allow you to post 6 for writing up nice impressions for each one ;)
 
Lets say I'll allow you to post 6 for writing up nice impressions for each one ;)

If I do get a scrap of free time to do so before the deadline, you've got a deal. :D I have a birthday to attend on Saturday and a (free) musical on Sunday, so weekend looks packed already...
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
  • War of the Human Tanks
  • Waking Mars
  • OpenRA
  • The Plan
  • Marvin's Mittens

Did you write up impressions on MM or WotHT? Dont remember reading many impressions on those two.
 

Hofmann

Member
This is nothing - next month voting will be hard, with all those popular games coming out. Maybe we could change the rules a bit and allow to vote for up to ten games in may - this way the less known ones won't be in disadvantage from the beginning.
 
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