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[Dice//]

it was kagari in the last FF15 thread that said something about practicality in a fantasy setting isn't worth weighing. I'm misquoting some so I should probably find the post, but thats how I've always felt.

Fantasy gives you the freedom to throw logic out the door and just create designs you like, and thats the discussion I like to have. Like/dislike on purely personal aesthetic preference

EDIT http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=182666609&postcount=170

Problem is when that "fantasy" often takes liberties to ogle women. I have no problem with sexuality or a sexy design in games, but I hate the frequency they pop up... or, in the FF15's case, how pretty damn blatant they were about showing Cindy's ass off. I don't mind sexy designs, but games are like rarely ever subtle about including it.

 

[sensui-tomo]

it was kagari in the last FF15 thread that said something about practicality in a fantasy setting isn't worth weighing. I'm misquoting some so I should probably find the post, but thats how I've always felt.

Fantasy gives you the freedom to throw logic out the door and just create designs you like, and thats the discussion I like to have. Like/dislike on purely personal aesthetic preference

EDIT http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=182666609&postcount=170

Ah, thanks for the quote, to me the outfit seems nice and it isnt nearly as bad as some stuff i've seen elsewhere (Queens blade... if you google it do know its NSFW) I came to this thread due to Jim sterling talking about this game... gonna back this one up, saw Naga Rider and that solidified that choice.

 

[Arjac]

It doesn't seem like she has a right breast, at least the piece of art we have gives the impression there isn't one, which makes me think Alex Ahad was inspired from the myths that Amazonian warriors cauterized their right breasts as young girls so as to better use a bow and arrow (assuming they're right handed I guess). So the breastplate seemingly has no breast to hinder it and appears to be connected to the iron shoulder pad which is anchoring it and has a pieace of cloth tied to its left looping behind her back, to prevent it from moving around much I'm guessing.

If memory serves, the draw on old-school longbows was strong enough to potentially shear a nip clean off on release.

 

[KTallguy]

I finally managed to back this. Good luck guys

 

[skLaFarebear]

Never used indiegogo before and I backed this game for $60 last weekend, but I forgot to select a perk. Looked around for a way to change perks, but I couldn't find anything. Anyway to change perks or am I screwed?

 

[Fishious]

I think all the incarnation reveals so far have been pretty great. Part of the fun for me is trying to imagine what these characters are going to look like in motion. As an example Tungar doesn't really seem that interesting when you just see him wearing his turban. Some of the artwork shows how he uses it as a weapon, but really nothing compares to actually seeing it in motion. For Phoebe I imagine she's basically going to be a mobile siege weapon and I could easily see enemies flying around as she launches her spears. And then I have to consider the fact that Lab Zero is amazing and it'll probably look even better than I imagine.

I'm really digging the sheer diversity in terms of ethnicity, body types, and styles for all the characters. Something I found really interesting is how differently everyone saw the characters before they were colored. It reminds me of the whole white people see anime characters as white and Japanese see them as Japanese thing. The degree to which we project our own culture and expectations onto drawings is pretty fascinating. I initially saw Thorani as a light skinned blonde, but then something clicked in my brain and I thought of her as Indian and that had me imagining her as much closer to her actual colored version. Still never would have expected Dhar's skin tone and he's much more interesting than I was expecting due to it.

 

[TheOGB]

I get what Morrigan's saying, but to me the design looks cool as fuck in spite of itself. The Xena vibes are off the charts.

I alos don't remember seeing Phoebe's blurb in here so

"Phoebe is a warrior and protector of her village. Having fended off multiple attempts by the Iron Kingdom's forces to overtake her home, her strength is unmatched, and can fire full-length spears from her massive bow. She is a proud mother of three, raising them alongside her warrior husband before he lost his life on the battlefield.

In meeting Ajna, Phoebe finds that she must make a difficult choice: stay behind to protect her village, or leave it behind to fight a much greater threat, possibly never to return."

man, between her and Thorani

 

[Samemind]

Wait, that's weird. I was under the impression that incarnations were implicitly spirits of the deceased. Yet Phoebe has the option of choosing to defend her village, meaning she's not dead yet?

 

[NEO0MJ]

Cool that im gave this a nod on his latest video. Hope that helps spread the message.

Wait, that's weird. I was under the impression that incarnations were implicitly spirits of the deceased. Yet Phoebe has the option of choosing to defend her village, meaning she's not dead yet?

What incarnations are and how they function is still a bit of a mystery in this game's world.

 

[TheOGB]

I didn't watch the entire lore stream so I could be very wrong, but iirc Ajna's got The Touch™, and part of her journey involves figuring out why she can "absorb" people. I think the only guy that's actually dead is voodoo zombie bro.

 

[DXLelouch153]

Cool that im gave this a nod on his latest video. Hope that helps spread the message.



What incarnations are and how they function is still a bit of a mystery in this game's world.

maybe their like Tales of Zestiria seraphim?

 

[Psxphile]

Never used indiegogo before and I backed this game for $60 last weekend, but I forgot to select a perk. Looked around for a way to change perks, but I couldn't find anything. Anyway to change perks or am I screwed?

Presumably, checking on Order Details (there's a link in the email they sent you after pledging) would contain that kind of information and the ability to change it. However, in my case it's just a dead link (the hell). Now I'm thinking you're going to need to sign up for an account to do anything else besides pledging on that site.

This page says if you picked the wrong perk (I assume no perk is also valid) to just contact Indiegogo directly here. Hopefully having an account is optional.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Just saw this game for the first time, looks absolutely fantastic!

 

[Samemind]

Well it's nice to know that they're not all dead people. It occurred to me that it would feel like a lonely journey if your party consisted exclusively of ghosts who would presumably move on once their goal is accomplished.

 

[JSoup]

Amazon also known to cut one of their breast so it wouldn't hamper their archery skill. An actually good female archer character are those who had this pad on one of their breast.

While that's as good a reason as any to explain away an aspect of character design, you are aware that the breast cutting thing is a myth, yes?

 

[Moonlight]

While that's as good a reason as any to explain away an aspect of character design, you are aware that the breast cutting thing is a myth, yes?

...whether or not that is the case is kind of irrelevant, though. The breast cutting thing is still an aspect of the popular perception of an Amazonian warrior and it does in fact appear that Phoebe lacks her right breast.

 

[Gbraga]

Is this all just backstory though or are we actually going to meet these people for the first time during the game?

 

[skLaFarebear]

Presumably, checking on Order Details (there's a link in the email they sent you after pledging) would contain that kind of information and the ability to change it. However, in my case it's just a dead link (the hell). Now I'm thinking you're going to need to sign up for an account to do anything else besides pledging on that site.

This page says if you picked the wrong perk (I assume no perk is also valid) to just contact Indiegogo directly here. Hopefully having an account is optional.

Oh I made sure to make an account before I pledged. When I check my order details it just tells me that it used paypal and the amount was $60. I also emailed the person running the campaign through indiegogo last thursday night and they never sent back.

I guess I'll try asking support though, thanks.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I feel like she's just a subversion of expectations... like, hey you want bikini armor? Here's your bikini armor with a body type you weren't expecting.

How so? It's pretty much a stereotypical, textbook bikini armour in every way.

Practical clothing is boring.

*eye-roll*
No, what's boring is the same old skimpy armour style we've seen eleventy billion times already.

If your character is meant to be more neutral and boring, then make that a priority. You can already tell a lot of this character's personality just by looking at her. She looks loud, bold, and powerful.

Not boring, stylish and cool, and still internally consistent:

Thora looks loud, bold and powerful, and doesn't resort to lame "sex-appeal" stereotypes. How about that.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how going braless makes more sense then even a makeshift strapless bra or chest bindings

I'd never, ever, ever wear a metal bra. Ouch. Brr. I'd rather go fight topless and have them bounce around than wear metal directly on skin.

Isn't there a conflict of interests between of comfort, protection and "internal consistency" if you move in the direction your propose?

I have no idea what you mean by conflict of interest. Huh? I don't think you're using the right words here...

Anyway obviously making stuff stylish at the expensive of practicality can be fine, I'm not saying "everything must be 100% practical or else grrrr!", but I am sick of seeing allegedly powerful warrior women being given all manners of ridiculous excuses (the "she's so confident" one has been trotted out already, and it's still LOL, doesn't make any sense) just to make them dress skimpily.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

So how's the campaign going so far? Are projections within scope with all of the media push from sites?

 

[GuardianE]

How so? It's pretty much a stereotypical, textbook bikini armour in every way.

*eye-roll*
No, what's boring is the same old skimpy armour style we've seen eleventy billion times already.


Not boring, stylish and cool, and still internally consistent:

Thora looks loud, bold and powerful, and doesn't resort to lame "sex-appeal" stereotypes. How about that.y.

Well first of all, I said bikini armor "with a body type you weren't expecting." I think I was pretty clear. The quoted is the subversion. I don't think this design is meant to titillate at all. It doesn't for me, anyway. She just looks cool.

Your example looks incredibly boring and dull to me, and I would say the same exact thing if it were a male character.

 

[Sinatar]

So how's the campaign going so far? Are projections within scope with all of the media push from sites?

Generally if a project doesn't make at least half it's goal in the first 48 hours it won't get funded.

 

[Moonlight]

How so? It's pretty much a stereotypical, textbook bikini armour in every way.

That wasn't addressing the physical design of the armour itself, but the body type it's attached to. It's sexy armour on a physically huge, imposing woman, which is something you don't see often. Huge, imposing women aren't usually permitted to look like that in fiction, and in general aren't associated with sexuality.

I disagree that it's generic in general, though. It's full of fun flourishes like the helmet forming one half of her breast armour, the red ribbon suspending it, and the stylized Grecian skirt (which ties into the Amazonian aesthetic). Skin exposed aside it's hard for me to read the design as overly sexualized. Most of it is there to point out her musculature. You see her midriff more for her abs than the sake of her midriff, and the same goes for her arm. And yeah, sure, it's sexy. I guess where I disagree with your point on a fundamental level is how that's a bad thing, really. It looks like she's sexy on her own terms.

You see plenty of 'sexy warrior women', but you're going to have to show me many examples of warrior women who look like Phoebe in video games. Even the example from the Banner Saga you cited doesn't really match Phoebe in the extremity. Certainly, I'd have more problems with her if she were similar to Ajna in body type.

Anyway obviously making stuff stylish at the expensive of practicality can be fine, I'm not saying "everything must be 100% practical or else grrrr!", but I am sick of seeing allegedly powerful warrior women being given all manners of ridiculous excuses (the "she's so confident" one has been trotted out already, and it's still LOL, doesn't make any sense) just to make them dress skimpily.

You're going to have to explain why 'confidence' doesn't make any sense. I think it's pretty clear that's what they're going for with her character archetype. She's clearly characterized from the outset as having total confidence in her abilities. It's in her expression and her character synopsis.

Also, you should check out El Sloth's response to you. She's not wearing a metal bra, she... doesn't appear to have anything under there at all. Her left breast appears to be under, like, leather or something else. Moreover, anyone who's used a bow would surely tell you that, yeah, you do need that much protection around your arms when using a bow if nothing else to protect yourself from your own bow.

I think it's totally fair to dislike the design, but I think Lab Zero deserves a lot more benefit of the doubt to accuse her design of existing purely for the sake of titillation. Just maybe take a moment to consider what about the theme and idea of her character is trying to convey. Or what someone who might resemble her physically could think about her.

 

[Crocodile]

I'd never, ever, ever wear a metal bra. Ouch. Brr. I'd rather go fight topless and have them bounce around than wear metal directly on skin.

I have no idea what you mean by conflict of interest. Huh? I don't think you're using the right words here...

A) Is it metal? I thought it was thick leather or something of the sort with a metal portion, over the leather or whatever, on top of the right breast. That's putting aside the real, though completely unconfirmed, possibility she might have had a right mastectomy. I'll also be honest in that putting metal on skin, even if said outfit isn't in the least bit revealing, is likely to be something most character designers and most gamers won't care about I imagine But yeah I don't think that's metal.

B) Sorry, let me try to be more clear. When I say a "conflict" I mean if the goal it is to try to maximize character/armor design along three axes (comfort, protection and the rather subjective "internal consistency" - though I understand what you are trying to say with the last point) then a topless woman in a loin cloth I'm pretty sure fails completely on the first two axes no?

Generally if a project doesn't make at least half it's goal in the first 48 hours it won't get funded.

I'm not going to say its all gumdrops and lollipops and smooth sailing ahead but I've seen enough campaigns where the above isn't true to call that a general rule.

 

[HellBlazer]

So how's the campaign going so far? Are projections within scope with all of the media push from sites?

It's doing very poorly unfortunately. We're past the halfway mark now, and not yet one third funded. Few campaigns have managed to make up for a slow start like that, and certainly none asking for so much money, as far as I know. Even though today has been a decent day thanks to a plug from The Jimquisition, it's still far below the daily average needed to reach the goal - and we can't count on plugs like that everyday. It's not impossible, but I think it will be very difficult to succeed, sadly. :\

 

[Lain]

I'm not liking the last few designs as much as the initial ones.
I was praising the sense of proportions earlier in regard to the character art, but the last couple feel like they don't keep that same sense of proportions I was praising.
The archer gives me the impression she's somewhat shorter than she should be, plus her armor feels half-baked. The details on it are cool but I feel the belt-skirt would look cooler if it was just a bit longer and some strings of cloth were added on her left shoulder.

Then again I wasn't digging the lady with the blue dress much either, so whatever.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Generally if a project doesn't make at least half it's goal in the first 48 hours it won't get funded.

It's doing very poorly unfortunately. We're past the halfway mark now, and not yet one third funded. Few campaigns have managed to make up for a slow start like that, and certainly none asking for so much money, as far as I know. Even though today has been a decent day thanks to a plug from The Jimquisition, it's still far below the daily average needed to reach the goal - and we can't count on plugs like that everyday. It's not impossible, but I think it will be very difficult to succeed, sadly. :\

Shame. The game looked amazing and it's depressing that no publisher would throw their full backing for it. Maybe an option would be to see what can be cut to make a bare bones version of the game (or shorter) and work with that on a kickstarter.

Crossing fingers a miracle happens.

 

[Ravidrath]

Regarding Phoebe's armor, Mike posted a bunch of stuff on FB about the research, etc. that went into it.

As someone who has been responsible for toning down the sexualization of characters in our games when possible (yes, believe it or not, it happened lots), Phoebe doesn't bother me.
Yan was changed a bunch from her original concept. Thorani was changed some, too.

Phoebe doesn't bother me because of the historical context:
- Armor does not prevent all injuries. (This goes without saying.)
- She's an archer. Archers did not always wear full armor, because they fought from a distance and the more armor you wear the more your movement is impeded.
- She's an ancient Greek Amazon. There are multiple Greek accounts and depictions of Amazons (and soldiers!) fighting in full armor, in half armor, in light gear, in togas/dresses, and in...less than that. There is also the concept of "heroic nudity", which I won't cover here.

How about a random frieze showing an Amazon in a pretty short outfit (bare breasts and bare butt) fighting a naked soldier:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/.../Category:Amazonomachy...
I guess this would be moderately NSFW nowadays, but not to the ancient Greeks! :^P (The building this was part of was considered one of the Seven Wonders of the World, too.)

Not to mention, had we covered her up, then instead of this comment people would have said things like, "Oh, it's okay for Thorani and Yan to show skin but not the less-idealized body shapes?"


It's not chest protection from the enemy, it's chest protection for herself when shooting.
The popular (though most likely incorrect) etymology for "amazon" was "without a breast", and the myth is that they cut off their right breasts to aid in archery, because the bow is held on the right side if you are right-handed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons#Etymology
Rather than do _that_, hers is instead covered with a plate so she's not constantly injuring it when firing, because her bow is held on the right side.

I can't speak about the stylistic choices like the belt or whatever, because I'm not an artist. However, there are pretty much zero depictions of Amazons wearing bras intended for support at all. Generally breasts are shown unencumbered; even when clothed, it's just for coverage and protection from injury. This is true in spite of evidence that the ancient Greeks may have been among the first cultures to wear bras:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_brassieres#Greece
so it seems to have been a stylistic choice.

 

[ArjanN]

Shame. The game looked amazing and it's depressing that no publisher would throw their full backing for it. Maybe an option would be to see what can be cut to make a bare bones version of the game (or shorter) and work with that on a kickstarter.

Crossing fingers a miracle happens.

Eh, I wouldn't write it off at all either yet though. There's basically an element of 'too big to fail' to crowdfunding, in that if you can get over 50% funded you're very likely to succeed.

 

[Moonlight]

Huh. I was wrong about the mastectomy, then.

 

[Ravidrath]

Huh. I was wrong about the mastectomy, then.

I couldn't find it, but I think in another post he mentions that that myth started because they wore a single breastplate, and the way it contained them made them think they'd lost the other one.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

DOES SHE THROW SPEARS WITH HER BOW?

She got that offa one of them Anor Londo fuckers.

 

[P90]

I put my pledge in.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Seems fitting for a globe/time spanning cast for a game like this to at least be as unexpectedly over the top as something like the classic Giant Robo cast of characters---I do believe that was the first time I ever saw an animated role presented in such a similar style, albeit blue with an Oriental vs Greek backdrop, and thought it was definitely interesting alongside strange that it took me so many years to encounter such as opposed to the usual stock designs that might as well be by the numbers and rarely anything else.

 

[Gbraga]

She got that offa one of them Anor Londo fuckers.

Hahahaha, indeed...

And threw right back at them. Sweet, sweet vengeance.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That wasn't addressing the physical design of the armour itself, but the body type it's attached to.

Why are you telling me this when I already praised the design for the body type...?

It's sexy armour on a physically huge, imposing woman, which is something you don't see often. Huge, imposing women aren't usually permitted to look like that in fiction, and in general aren't associated with sexuality.

Eh. People said the same thing about the Dragon's Crown amazon and I still said her armour was stupid. If only she had worn clothing instead of that stupid metal bikini. (I'm not saying Phoebe's outfit is as bad as the DC Amazon, mind, it's still leagues ahead really.)

You see plenty of 'sexy warrior women', but you're going to have to show me many examples of warrior women who look like Phoebe in video games. Even the example from the Banner Saga you cited doesn't really match Phoebe in the extremity. Certainly, I'd have more problems with her if she were similar to Ajna in body type.

See above. Also Thora is from Jotun, not Banner Saga.

You're going to have to explain why 'confidence' doesn't make any sense. I think it's pretty clear that's what they're going for with her character archetype. She's clearly characterized from the outset as having total confidence in her abilities. It's in her expression and her character synopsis.

Sorry I meant that the "she's confident that's why she's dressed that way" is a stupid and overly common excuse. It doesn't make sense because there's no reason a confident warrior would wear a nonsensical outfit. If she's so confident about not getting injured, why is she wearing pseudo-armour instead of, say, comfy clothing? Why are bikini armours always still trying to pass as armour instead of just being swimsuits, which at least wouldn't chafe the skin?

Again, I'm not screaming in outrage here. I'm just disappointed that they'd go with the banal sexy outfit type we've seen a million times before. Just once, I'd love to see a big powerful Brienne-like woman warrior in a game, who looks intimidating and badass instead of goofy. Thora is the only example I can think of as a protagonist/lead, sadly.

Regarding Phoebe's armor, Mike posted a bunch of stuff on FB about the research, etc. that went into it.

Hah! I knew that having her actually half-naked or wearing light clothing would make more sense! xD

But no one is ever ballsy enough to do that. They prefer going with the safe and boring bikini armours instead.

 

[HellBlazer]

It's coming later than I would like, but... we should have something pretty big to drive the last two weeks.

Ravi, any news on when this will be announced? I think it's sorely needed unfortunately...

 

[Moonlight]

Why are you telling me this when I already praised the design for the body type...?

I was clarifying your 'how so' reply, because you said how it was just generic bikini armour, but the original comment wasn't actually passing judgment on the design merits of armour itself but the fact that she has the body type that she has with the armour she has on. It's not a combo you see often, and there's an argument to be made one justifies the other. You obviously disagree, which is cool.

I also think the DC Amazon is a distinctly other thing since the Amazon by nature couldn't be characterized for the way DC was structured. Phoebe's a different story being a predefined character with her own thing to convey.

 

[Ravidrath]

Ravi, any news on when this will be announced? I think it's sorely needed unfortunately...

Should be early next week.

I was hoping it'd be this week, but we hit some snags.

 

[Dice//]

It's coming later than I would like, but... we should have something pretty big to drive the last two weeks.

I'll keep posting it up on Social Media for RPGFan. Woo! Lots of positive responses from those who do give it a chance.

 

[Ravidrath]

I'll keep posting it up on Social Media for RPGFan. Woo! Lots of positive responses from those who do give it a chance.

Very curious to see if this thing moves the needle at all.

It's never been done before, like many of the things we've tried with this campaign.

 

[Cellsai]

Hah! I knew that having her actually half-naked or wearing light clothing would make more sense! xD

But no one is ever ballsy enough to do that. They prefer going with the safe and boring bikini armours instead.

Having a half naked women in a game would immediately jack the rating up. Putting a bikini on is basically a stand in for naked upper torso in a lot of these cases.
Yes it's very sad that blood and gore is less of an issue than naked chests on one gender, but them's the breaks.

Having leather pseudo armor is also a quick shorthand for "badass" or "warrior". If someone is just wearing standard light clothes and holding a bow, it speaks far less about that character than a woman in leather armor, even if it's of the bikini variety.

I love Pheobe so far, but I am not a huge fan of the armor design either. Regardless though I do understand the reasoning that went into it.

 

[Yabberwocky]

I don't mind Phoebe's design too much as it is so rare to have a female character of that body type sexualised, though I completely understand why people would feel differently. Generally most female characters of that stature in games/media tend to be fairly sexless, so I'm on board with it more than I would be normally. (I was even trying to think of comic book characters that were similar, and Power Girl, Big Barda and She-Hulk aren't any where near Phoebe's musculature.)

 

[Puruzi]

This character looks pretty boring actually.

 

[Ravidrath]

Obviously I'm biased, but I like what we did with Phoebe.

The armor is justified with some historical context, she's older than most female game characters, and she's a mother of three.

You really don't see much like that out there.

It is also worth noting that all of the characters will likely change a little leading up until the final release. Like, if you even look at the characters we've revealed so far, you can already see some subtle changes in their designs from the stills taken from the campaign video.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Your example looks incredibly boring and dull to me, and I would say the same exact thing if it were a male character.

This character looks pretty boring actually.

smh

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

Regarding Phoebe's armor, Mike posted a bunch of stuff on FB about the research, etc. that went into it.

Thanks for sharing the intricacies of character design. I don't see that often in this industry.

 

[Gbraga]

Jotun's art is awesome. Didn't hear great things about the game itself, but it just looks and animates so damn nice that I still want to play it.

 

[kiryogi]

Obviously I'm biased, but I like what we did with Phoebe.

The armor is justified with some historical context, she's older than most female game characters, and she's a mother of three.

You really don't see much like that out there.

It is also worth noting that all of the characters will likely change a little leading up until the final release. Like, if you even look at the characters we've revealed so far, you can already see some subtle changes in their designs from the stills taken from the campaign video.

Don't give in to Morrigan's hate.

 

[GuardianE]

Jotun's art is awesome. Didn't hear great things about the game itself, but it just looks and animates so damn nice that I still want to play it.

I'm not trying to disrespect the artstyle really. I just find that particular character to be completely blase, personally. I'm sure that there are people that love it, like Morrigan, but for me it's yawnsville. Brown much?

But I get it. Some people need or appreciate practicality with their character, clothing, or weapon designs to ground them. I'm not one of those people.