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Interview with Otori for PS5 thermal design (PS5 clocks were set at 2.23 ghz more than 2 years ago)

Agnostic2020

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Are we resorting to making things up now?
The quote in the article doesn't talk about clocks being fixed two years ago. That's something that Agnostic2020 Agnostic2020 added.

The exact quote, which you can find in the second page of the article says "when the PS5 hardware configuration and shape were roughly decided".
Not only it doesn't talk about clocks but it also says "roughly" which means that some details where up for discussion
I copied and pasted it from a discord but just checked a translation in era and i changed it to reflect the translation there. Again this doesn't change the fact that they knew ps5 was a high clocked machine from more than 2 years ago and hence the research
 

CobraXT

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I am not sure if this will be reliable for 5-7 years console
 
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Kdad

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Are we resorting to making things up now?
The quote in the article doesn't talk about clocks being fixed two years ago. That's something that Agnostic2020 Agnostic2020 added.

The exact quote, which you can find in the second page of the article says "when the PS5 hardware configuration and shape were roughly decided".
Not only it doesn't talk about clocks but it also says "roughly" which means that some details where up for discussion
I've run it Google and Bing translate and see that it doesn't state 'clocks'. Are you relying on machine translating like me or are you a native Japanese translator? Certainly calls into question the quote though and would like to know the source of the English translation being used here.
 

Kdad

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I copied and pasted it from a discord but just checked a translation in era and i changed it to reflect the translation there. Again this doesn't change the fact that they knew ps5 was a high clocked machine from more than 2 years ago and hence the research
I think it would be a good idea, moving forward, to state the source of translation when posting something that is not in your native language.
 
Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole

Translation: Thr seal around the PS5s APU will degrade overtime and will cause the liquid metal to leak out causing a short in the system.

Well that all depends on how durable the seal is. I work with seals on a daily basis and some of them can last an extremely long time. While others will degrade in a short amount of time because they dry out. I don't think Sony wants a RROD type of situation on their hands so they probably put the best that they could especially with those high clocks.

Anyways who is this guy on twitter that you posted?
 
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onesvenus

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I've run it Google and Bing translate and see that it doesn't state 'clocks'. Are you relying on machine translating like me or are you a native Japanese translator? Certainly calls into question the quote though and would like to know the source of the English translation being used here.
I also used machine translation.
Clocks is not there and I don't think it's up for debate when multiple translations omit the word.
 
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LordOfChaos

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There are two types of PS5, one with an optical disk drive and one without, and the prices are US $ 499 and US $ 399, respectively, which can be said to be cheaper than the specifications. Thermal design contributed significantly to cost reduction in achieving this price.

^What I been sayin. The heatsink may cost a few dollars more than the old one that cost $1, the liquid metal may be a few times more expensive than pennies of thermal paste, but that should still be less expensive overall than an APU that's 60mm2 bigger. I don't know why people expected the PS5 to be more expensive than the Series X.

Plus them busting this last minute overclock myth. Very interesting design.
 

kuncol02

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Read the preceding sentence. The size of the fan determined the width of the box.
And that sentence said that the size of fan was based on size of box.
That article is so badly translated, that we really shouldn't take anything from it as fact.
 

Aladin

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The real reason they used a smaller heatsink, is because of a smaller die size.
 
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The real reason they used a smaller heatsink, is because of a smaller die size.

Those two things don't exactly correlate. The PS5s APU is small but the heatsink is massive. Using liquid metal allows them to transfer heat more effectively to the heat sink. With that said if they used thermal paste they might have needed a more effective heatsink.
 

Aladin

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There are two types of PS5, one with an optical disk drive and one without, and the prices are US $ 499 and US $ 399, respectively, which can be said to be cheaper than the specifications. Thermal design contributed significantly to cost reduction in achieving this price.

^What I been sayin. The heatsink may cost a few dollars more than the old one that cost $1, the liquid metal may be a few times more expensive than pennies of thermal paste, but that should still be less expensive overall than an APU that's 60mm2 bigger. I don't know why people expected the PS5 to be more expensive than the Series X.

Plus them busting this last minute overclock myth. Very interesting design.
Lol, it ain't that cheap. 10$, in that ballpark maybe.
 

Aladin

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Those two things don't exactly correlate. The PS5s APU is small but the heatsink is massive. Using liquid metal allows them to transfer heat more effectively to the heat sink. With that said if they used thermal paste they might have needed a more effective heatsink.
Do we have power rating for both consoles ?
 
Feb 27, 2013
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Its a very long interview with harware vp of mechanical and thermal for ps5 :
He goes into detail as to why he started developing the liquid metal application method research for ps5 more than 2 years ago .



"I really wanted to use liquid metal as a heat conductor. It took a lot of determination and preparation. Sony Interactive Entertainment's (SIE) PlayStation 5 (PS5) console is scheduled to launch in November 2020, and Yasuhiro Otori, who is responsible for the mechanical and thermal design of the console, has been working on the PS5 This is how he describes his thoughts on the technology that played a key role in making the He has been involved in the design of the PlayStation since the PS2, and appeared himself in the PS5 disassembly video released by SIE on October 7, 2020, to work and explain the process.


Why did we liquid metal in TIM?
 Preparations for the adoption of liquid metal TIM began more than two years ago, when the configuration and shape of the PS5 hardware was roughly decided. In addition to the design, we began to consider various aspects of the adoption of liquid metal TIM, from the manufacturing process to procurement. They decided to use liquid metal TIM because the main processor (SoC) had a high operating frequency, but the die was small and the thermal density was "very high" (Mr. Otori). The heat density of the SoC, especially during gaming, is "much higher" (he said) than the PS4. That's because the PS5's SoC "basically runs at almost full power during gaming" (he says). As a result, TDP (Thermal Design Power) values and the amount of heat generated during gaming are "about the same". On the other hand, it is rare for a PS4 SoC to operate at the very edge of TDP, and even when gaming, it generates only a few percent of its TDP.

The reason for the small size of the SoC die is that die size is directly related to cost and yield. In other words, the smaller the die size, the lower the cost and the more difficult it is for defects to enter the die, which leads to higher yields.

Liquid metal TIM is more expensive than conventional thermal conductors such as thermal grease. However, when considering the thermal design of electronic devices, the more effort is put into cooling close to the heat source, the "better the cost performance" (Mr. Otori). This is because if heat can be recovered efficiently near the heat source, there is no need to spend money on heat sinks and cooling fans. On the other hand, if thermal grease is used, an expensive heat sink with high cooling performance is required.

 In other words, even if we use liquid metal TIM, which leads to higher costs, we can reduce the total cost of cooling as a result," says Otori. The speed of the cooling fan can also be reduced, which reduces noise. In other words, the use of liquid metal TIM "makes sense in terms of cost and quietness" (Mr. Otori).


although TIM is used in mobile phone base stations and other devices, its use in consumer applications is limited to a limited number of notebook computers and "overclockers," which are enthusiasts who increase the operating frequency of processors. .

 Therefore, the company has taken measures to address these issues so that it can be used in game consoles that are mass-produced in quantities ranging from several million units to more than 10 million units per year. For example, a sealed structure was adopted to prevent leakage of the liquid metal TIM. This structure is patented, although it would be obvious if it were to be disassembled and seen. Above all, there is a lot of manufacturing know-how, such as how to apply and automate liquid metal TIM, that is not obvious just by looking at it," said Otori. For example, liquid metal TIM is applied by an automated machine, but "it's a different method than conventional grease," according to Mr. Otori. We cooperated with material manufacturers to realize this liquid metal TIM. The company claims to have added customizations based on existing products.


Full article:


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Sony has always been as marvel at consumer electronics engineering. They really didn't have to flex this hard with the T-1000 solution to cool the SOC :D
 
Mar 27, 2020
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Do we have power rating for both consoles ?

Well you did say they used a smaller heatsink because the die size was smaller. The competitions die size is larger yet they have a smaller heatsink.

Just saying the two are not exactly correlated.

As for the power the PS5 does have a larger PSU. So it's safe to assume that it will probably consume more power than the XSX. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's due to the APU because other components like US 3.1 can consume alot of power.
 
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Tripolygon

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And that sentence said that the size of fan was based on size of box.
That article is so badly translated, that we really shouldn't take anything from it as fact.
That tends to happen when we use translator websites. So much of Japanese is very context oriented.

Header : 大きいPS5は分厚いファンに由来

Bing: The large PS5 is derived from a thick fan
Google: The big PS5 comes from a thick fan
Deep L: The big PS5 comes from a thick fan
Yandex: The larger PS5 is derived from the thicker fan

Body:
この冷却ファンの大きさがPS5のサイズを決定付けた。それは、冷却ファンの厚さを、PS5を縦置きした場合の幅(横置きの場合は高さ)の基準に設定したからである。PS5を縦置きし、正面から見る左右非対称で、右側の下方が厚くなっている。そこに光ディスクドライブが存在するからである。

Bing: The size of the cooling fan has determined the size of the PS5. It is because the thickness of the cooling fan is set to the reference of the width (height in the case of horizontal orientation) when the PS5 is vertically placed. The PS5 is placed vertically, and the left and right asymmetry seen from the front, the lower side of the right side is thicker. This is because there is an optical disk drive there.

Google: The size of this cooling fan determined the size of the PS5. This is because the thickness of the cooling fan is set as the standard for the width when the PS5 is placed vertically (height when it is placed horizontally). The PS5 is placed vertically, and it is asymmetrical when viewed from the front, and the lower part on the right side is thicker. This is because the optical disk drive exists there.

Deep L: The size of this cooling fan determined the size of PS5. When the PS5 is placed vertically and viewed from the front, it is asymmetrical and thicker at the bottom of the right side, where the optical disk drive is located. This is because that is where the optical disk drive is located.

Yandex: The size of this cooling fan determined the size of the PS5.It is because the thickness of the cooling fan was set to the standard of the width (height in the case of horizontal placement) when the PS5 was placed vertically. The PS5 is placed vertically, and it is asymmetrical from the front, and the lower part of the right side is thicker. Because there is an optical disk drive there.

We can definitely take from the article that the fan thickness is what determined the width of PS5.
 
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"This is because if heat can be recovered efficiently near the heat source, there is no need to spend money on heat sinks and cooling fans. On the other hand, if thermal grease is used, an expensive heat sink with high cooling performance is required."

*Edit: How big was the expensive heat sink?


 
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LordOfChaos

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Power draw ?

Xsx 305 watt
Ps5 350 watt

Strictly speaking, that's just power supply. What percent of each either will use is up in the air, there are always differences in choices re: overprovisioning for capacitor aging, efficiency, power virus paranoia, etc.
 

LordOfChaos

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I didn't know liquid metal was used in phone base stations. Not a consumer device, but at least there's field data for how well sealed LM keeps over time.
 

SlimySnake

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I found these two quotes the most interesting
When i was trying to fix my ps4 pro i watched a video where they applied liquid metal instead of regular thermal paste. The difference was literally 10 degree Fahrenheit cooler 130 vs 120 degrees, and the comments said that he didn't even apply it correctly.

Liquid metal is amazing.
 
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"This is because if heat can be recovered efficiently near the heat source, there is no need to spend money on heat sinks and cooling fans. On the other hand, if thermal grease is used, an expensive heat sink with high cooling performance is required."

*Edit: How big was the expensive heat sink?



Just imagine the heatsink if they used thermal paste.

😲

When i was trying to fix my ps4 pro i watched a video where they applied liquid metal instead of regular thermal paste. The difference was literally 10 degree Fahrenheit cooler 130 vs 120 degrees, and the comments said that he didn't even apply it correctly.

Liquid metal is amazing.

I remember watching a video where they said it decreased the temperature by 20°C. That's a ton.

But if course they gave some examples of people that didn't apply it correctly and the results were vastly inferior.
 
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SlimySnake

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Power draw ?

Xsx 305 watt
Ps5 350 watt
That's the power supply rating. Power draw is unknown. But i would suspect it's in the 225-250 watt range.

The gpu alone should be 150w. The cpu should be around 30-40. Ram, ssd, and other items should make up the rest.
 
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onQ123

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Love this part that mean they are not giving you a 350W power supply & only reaching 200W PS5 will run close to the limits of the TDP.

They decided to use liquid metal TIM because the main processor (SoC) had a high operating frequency, but the die was small and the thermal density was "very high" (Mr. Otori). The heat density of the SoC, especially during gaming, is "much higher" (he said) than the PS4. That's because the PS5's SoC "basically runs at almost full power during gaming" (he says). As a result, TDP (Thermal Design Power) values and the amount of heat generated during gaming are "about the same". On the other hand, it is rare for a PS4 SoC to operate at the very edge of TDP, and even when gaming, it generates only a few percent of its TDP.
 

onQ123

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XSX - 315W PSU
PS5 - 350W PSU

Neither of them will use that much power. I would expect at most 50-70% of the PSU power rating.


He clearly says that PS5 will be running close to the limits of the TDP

That's because the PS5's SoC "basically runs at almost full power during gaming" (he says).
 

BattleScar

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He clearly says that PS5 will be running close to the limits of the TDP

The power supply you use has nothing to do with the SoC's TDP (Thermal Design Power).

PSU's peak power delivery efficiency is usually around 60-80% of the maximum rated power of the unit. E.g a 1000W power supply's maximum efficiency will be around 600-800W.
Also, power supplies degrade in efficiency over time. Given that consoles are designed to last at least 7 years, they need to factor in an overhead.
If the power of the unit was 350W and they used a 350W PSU, the unit would be fucked after a year or two of use.
 

Alebrije

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Its great to see Sony trying to so something different regarding temperature control. Hope this works so they can use it on next consoles.
 

LordOfChaos

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He clearly says that PS5 will be running close to the limits of the TDP

Thermal design power isn't the PSU's load, it's merely the maximum heat a chip can output.

It's not going to be running near the limits of the PSU, that's a bad idea because capacitors age, or an unexpected load could cause a power virus, the efficiency point is below the peak, etc etc.
 
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Mahavastu

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Sony has always been as marvel at consumer electronics engineering. They really didn't have to flex this hard with the T-1000 solution to cool the SOC :D
At least they have now an excuse for the scarcity of the PS5: its not easy to hunt enough terminators :messenger_winking:
 

NoMoChokeSJ

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He clearly says that PS5 will be running close to the limits of the TDP
It'll be interesting to see the longevity of these machines if they are running so hot for so long. Makes me curious what will occur with them as years pass with software that pushes them.
 
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Kumomeme

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i guess if in long term the ps5 indeed hold well, this might gain lot of interest from other manufactures to try use liquid metal for their device . for example gaming phone manufacturer, laptops could use this thermal paste to have good cooling solution without need to spend more money on way expensive heatsink and avoided bulky design.

next revision switch also could be take advantages of this. if they want to push more clock on undocked/docked mode for example, they can avoided bulky design and more expensive cooling while maintaining thermal. if i remember correctly in the past there are people managed to increase clockspeed on switch without actually affected much of tdp usage but the device turn out pretty hot. with this method lot of device manufacturer can push for higher clockspeed for their product for more performance.

probably how sony fare with ps5 gonna be indicator for the rest of industry to try adopt this. liquid metal arent cheap but working cooling option could be way expensive.
 
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