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Iran PoliGAF: Presidential Debate

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PHOTOS Tehran, June 15

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A supporter wears a head band reading: "Mirhossein Mousavi"

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A man climbs a monument in Azadi (freedom) square during a rally in support of former presidential candidate Mirhossein Mousavi in Tehran June 15, 2009. The Persian script reads: "Death to dictator".

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speculawyer said:

I'm with everyone else (So far at least), well said.

I was expecting some sort of long drawn out speech...he kept it simple and level headed. I know that many in this topic are hoping for full scale revolution, I don't know enough about the situation to make that sort of commitment. I'm just glad Obama played it cool and acknowledged that we aren't going to be used by either side.
 

Arde5643

Member
RiskyChris said:
Apparently Ahmedinejad has given the Basij the OK/order to shoot? From BBC.
Besides the Basij, there are third party groups associated with the current regime that are doing the more violent acts. They are Ansar and Lebanese Hizbullah. Most of the groups are non-Persians as well so they're doing more of the beatings and killings.

Stolen from Penny Arcade:
Swiped from SA Forums which stole it from FARK wrote said:
This seems to be helping quite a few people, so I'll go ahead and repost it with some adjustments and now with links for those who want additional information. Sorry, this has reached the level of TL;DR but I really am trying to cram the most relevant information and speculation only.

Suppression of Dissent - The Players

Currently, there are two or three groups who are suppressing the students on the ground that you'll read about throughout this thread:

1. The Basij (confirmed)
2. Ansar Hizbullah (confirmed, which I will refer to as Ansar)
3. Lebanese Hizbullah (unconfirmed but highly probable in the mind of Persians, many different independent reports and video point that wa; I will refer to them as Hizbullah)

- The Basij are your regular paramilitary organization. They are the armed hand of the clerics. The Basij are a legal group, officially a student union, and are legally under direct orders of the Revolutionary Guard. Their main raison d'être is to quell dissent. They are the ones who go and crack skulls, force people to participate in pro-regime demonstrations, and generally try to stop any demonstrations from even starting. They are basically located throughout the country, in every mosque, every university, every social club you can think of. They function in a way very similar to the brown shirts.

They were the ones who first started the crackdown after the election but it wasn't enough. While they are violent and repressive, they are still Persian and attacking fellow citizens. A beating is one thing, mass killings another.

- Another group was working with them, who are even more extreme, is Ansar. There is a lot of cross-membership between the Basij and Ansar, though not all members are members of the other group and vice-versa. The vast majority of Ansar are Persians (either Basij or ex-military), though a lot of Arab recruits come from Lebanon and train with them under supervision of the Revolutionary Guard. They are not a legal group, they are considered pretty much a vigilante group, but they pledge loyalty directly to the Supreme Leader and most people believe that they are under his control. They are currently helping the Basij to control the riots, but due to the fact that they are Persians and in lower numbers than the Basij, they are not that active.

- (the following paragraph includes some speculation based on reports from ground zero) Hizbullah flew in a lot of their members in Iran, most likely a good deal even before the elections in case there were trouble. They are the ones who speak Arabs and are unleashing the biggest level of violence on the Persians so far. Another wave arrived recently and there is chatter that yet another wave of Hizbullah reinforcements are coming in from Lebanon as we speak. According to Iranians on the ground, they are the ones riding motorcycles, beating men women and children indiscriminately and firing live ammunitions at students.

The Lebanese Hizbullah is a direct offshoot (and under direct control) of the Iranian Hizbullah (itself under direct control of the Supreme Leader) and cooperates closely with Ansar though Ansar occupies itself only with Iran's domestic policies, while Hizbullah occupies itself only with Iran's foreign policy unless there is a crisis like right now. However, Hizbullah has been called to stop violent riots in Iran in the past.

What will happen

Unless the army decides to intervene in the favor of the Council and to stop the early beginnings of the new Revolution, Ansar & Hizbullah members will be the ones doing the brunt of the killing and repression with Basij as a support while also protecting government buildings and try to do crowd control. The police seems to have for the most part disbanded in centers like Tehran according to all reports, including international media. If the police decides to come back, they will focus less on protection and crowd control, so the Basij will start to crack more skulls).

Currently, this is what is happening.


Timeline
note: I built this through both articles and twitter feeds, so I do not claim that this is a 100% factually correct representation of reality, but this is the general narrative.

- When the first spontaneous riots erupted, the first wave the Iranian Riot Police was called in, and short after the Basij also took the scene. The RP concentrated mostly around public buildings and streets while the Basij took position around student groups, especiallly universities.

- As things got more out of hand, more and more Basij troops were called in, as the police started dispersing. The riot police are less inclined (or, rather I should say the Basij are more inclined) to use violence so they retreated and leaving the place to the

- With the second wave of Basij also came Ansar Hizbullah members. This is the point where firearms started being used. There are reports of a few murders but it was mostly fired in the air or on walls in order to scare away protesters in University dorms.

- It's around the time of the second wave that the first reports and videos of an important number of non-Persian thugs shouting in Arabic and violently beating people with chains, clubs and electric batons (similar to cattle prods). The end of the second wave came right before the beginning of the current manifestation. Things were getting quieter with only sporadic reports of dissenters being assaulted. Important to note: at this time. the Supreme Leader has authorized these militias to use live ammunition against the crowd if things get out of hand (source: BBC)

- This brings us to the third wave, which just began around 12:30PM for those of us on the East Coast. According to all reports, plainclothes militia have opened fire on civilians protesting peacefully.

Right now, there is chaos in the streets, reports of fighting all over Tehran, plenty of pictures of people shot, some to death. Things are ugly and this is spreading in other cities as well. There is a major crackdown on students, especially those with connections to the outside world going on right now. Some people report that the students are fighting back in some areas. Others report that telephones are being bugged and everyone twittering and sending videos outside of Iran are being rounded up.

Violent and murderous repression has started. At least a dozen people have been killed so far. Things will spiral down fast, and very soon.
 

Dabanton

Member
My iranian friend was saying that one of his childhood friends was shot in the head at point blank range outside tehran uni.

His thanking his lucky stars that his parents came back from Iran last week. As they would have no doubt have been held.
 

Avtomat

Member
Chrono said:
Is there any living being that is as awesome as Obama? The answer is no.

Joke post?

Bams - srsly guys wth Bams? Barack issues up a classic wishy washy answer. He cannot say sh*t, he cannot be seen to be backing any candidate and to come out and criticise the election outright would be stupid - yes I am looking @ you McCain. He did what he had to do.
 

Avtomat

Member
Arde5643 said:
Besides the Basij, there are third party groups associated with the current regime that are doing the more violent acts. They are Ansar and Lebanese Hizbullah. Most of the groups are non-Persians as well so they're doing more of the beatings and killings.

Stolen from Penny Arcade:


I highly doubt the situation will deteriorate much further either the ruling figures crush the protests with force or the protesters get tired and go home. I agree with the BBC take on this:

Read the analysis section of this
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
colinisation said:
I highly doubt the situation will deteriorate much further either the ruling figures crush the protests with force or the protesters get tired and go home. I agree with the BBC take on this:

Read the analysis section of this

The former is much more likely than the latter. I think it's past the point of just dying off by itself now.
 

APF

Member
As the losing candidate of an ousted political party I don't think it's stupid for McCain to question the election if he chooses to, just futile. It holds far less importance than if the President or (to a lesser extent) his party were to do so.
 
I find this amazing. In Europe we've just had a horrifically low turnout and the most it has done is conjur up a few miserable and depressing headlines -- but here, we have the complete opposite of apathy. Here we have people fighting for their voice -- we in the West preach to the rest of the world on this shit all the time, and there is a particularly negative view of Iran in the media, but this is simply amazing. These people are all amazing.
 

Chrono

Banned
Sunday had been a different story, full of violence and confrontation. Out in the streets, a doctor, Mahdi Alizadeh, had stopped to tell me about the bravery of President Ahmadinejad, his glorious electoral victory, and how Iran was “the most democratic country in the world,” when a woman named Yassamin approached and demanded: “If your side won, why are you doing this?”

“This” meant the beatings. She said she had just seen women and children being struck by the baton-wielding police. I had, too. The image of a slender woman outside Tehran University, her face contorted in pain, clutching her upper arm where the blow fell, had lodged in my mind. There’s nothing more repugnant than seeing women being hit by big men armed with clubs and the license of the state.

[snip]

other before me on the street Sunday, as tens of thousands of Ahmadinejad supporters streamed by, the argument quickly escalated, watched by a growing cluster of people.

The real violence, Alizadeh declared, was America’s, invading Iraq and Afghanistan. The only way to talk to people like him, Yassamim retorted was to agree, because otherwise you get beaten.

Now Alizadeh’s mother started screaming: “You are blind! Let God and light come into your life.” Yassamin, a documentary movie maker, turned away.

LOL

At this critical juncture, what should the Obama administration do? I think it’s still right to pursue engagement, but America must now do so with a far greater skepticism over the good faith of a government so apparently ready to steal and lie.

Why the fuck are some talking about Iran like it's this shining beacon of civilization and democracy that was overtaken by a coup?

The government was stealing and lying for 30 years now, and that's the least of their crimes.

These were never fair elections, Mousavi was approved by the Khameni himself before running. He's one of them.


Also, here's an interesting article:

Rafsanjani's Gambit Backfires
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF16Ak05.html
 

xabre

Banned
If they're going to have a revolution I hope they get on with it. Doubt it, things will peter out to the same old, same old soon enough.
 
Speed of Iran vote count called suspicious
By JASON KEYSER, Associated Press Writer Jason Keyser, Associated Press Writer – 49 mins ago

CAIRO – How do you count almost 40 million handwritten paper ballots in a matter of hours and declare a winner? That's a key question in Iran's disputed presidential election. International polling experts and Iran analysts said the speed of the vote count, coupled with a lack of detailed election data normally released by officials, was fueling suspicion around President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's landslide victory.

Iran's supreme leader endorsed the hard-line president's re-election the morning after Friday's vote, calling it a "divine assessment" and appearing to close the door on challenges from Iran's reformist camp. But on Monday, after two days of rioting in the streets, he ordered an investigation into the allegations of fraud.

Mir Hossein Mousavi, Ahmadinejad's reformist challenger, claims he was robbed of the presidency and has called for the results to be canceled.

Mousavi's newspaper, Kalemeh Sabz, or the Green Word, reported on its Web site that more than 10 million votes were missing national identification numbers similar to U.S. Social Security numbers, which make the votes "untraceable." It did not say how it knew that information.

Mousavi said some polling stations closed early with voters still in line, and he charged that representatives of his campaign were expelled from polling centers even though each candidate was allowed one observer at each location. He has not provided evidence to support the accusations.

His supporters have reported intimidation by security forces who maintained a strong presence around polling stations.

Observers who questioned the vote said that at each stage of the counting, results released by the Interior Ministry showed Ahmadinejad ahead of Mousavi by about a 2-1 margin.

That could be unusual, polling experts noted, because results reported first from Iran's cities would likely reflect a different ratio from those reported later from the countryside, where the populist Ahmadinejad has more support among the poor.


Mousavi said the results also may have been affected by a shortage of ballot papers in the provinces of Fars and East Azerbaijan, where he had been expected to do well because he is among the country's Azeri minority. He said the shortage was despite the fact that officials had 17 million extra ballots ready.

Interior Ministry results show that Ahmadinejad won in East Azerbaijan.


The final tally was 62.6 percent of the vote for Ahmadinejad and 33.75 for Mousavi — a landslide victory in a race that was perceived to be much closer. Such a huge margin also went against the expectation that a high turnout — a record 85 percent of Iran's 46.2 million eligible voters — would boost Mousavi, whose campaign energized young people to vote. About a third of the eligible voters were under 30.

Ahmadinejad, who has significant support among the poor and in the countryside, said Sunday that the vote was "real and free" and insisted the results were fair and legitimate.

"Personally, I think that it is entirely possible that Ahmadinejad received more than 50 percent of the vote," said Konstantin Kosten, an expert on Iran with the Berlin-based German Council of Foreign Relations who spent a year from 2005-06 in Iran.

Still, he said, "there must be an examination of the allegations of irregularities, as the German government has called for."

But Iran's electoral system lacks the transparency needed to ensure a fair election, observers said. International monitors are barred from observing Iranian elections and there are no clear mechanisms to accredit domestic observers, said Michael Meyer-Resende, coordinator of the Berlin-based Democracy Reporting International, which tracked developments in the Iranian vote from outside the country.

He noted that the election was organized and overseen by two institutions that are not independent, the government's Interior Ministry and the Guardian Council, a 12-member body made up of clerics and experts in Islamic law who are closely allied to the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Meyer-Resende said that to be sure of the results announced by the Interior Ministry, it must release data all the way down to the level of each polling station.

One of the central questions was how 39.2 million paper ballots could be counted by hand and final results announced by authorities in Tehran in just over 12 hours. Past elections took at least twice as long.

A new computerized system might have helped speed the process in urban centers, where most Iranians live, though it is unclear if that system was extended to every small town and village. And each ballot — on which a candidate's name was written in — would still have to be counted by hand before any data could be entered into a computer, aggregated and transmitted to the Interior Ministry in Tehran.

"I wouldn't say it's completely impossible," Meyer-Resende said. "In the case of Iran, of course, you wonder with logistical challenges whether they could do it so fast."

Susan Hyde, an assistant political science professor at Yale University who has taken part in election monitoring missions in developing countries for the Carter Center, agreed that would be uncharacteristically fast.

"If they're still using hand counting, that would be very speedy, unusually speedy," she said.

The Interior Ministry released results from a first batch of 5 million votes just an hour and a half after polling stations closed.

Over the next four hours, it released vote totals almost hourly in huge chunks of about 5 million votes — plowing through more than half of all ballots cast.

Arshin Adib-Moghaddam, a professor of Middle East politics at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies, said a major rigging process would require the involvement of powerful advisory bodies, including those in which one of the other candidates and a key Mousavi backer are prominent figures.

"Given that Mohsen Rezaei, one of the other presidential candidates, is the head of the powerful Expediency Council, for instance, it is highly unlikely that he wouldn't have received any information of such a strategic plan to hijack the election," Adib-Moghaddam said.

It sucks when things smell a bit but will probably never be satisfactorily resolved. :-/
 
speculawyer said:
It sucks when things smell a bit but will probably never be satisfactorily resolved. :-/

As I posted on another forum that's the ultimate problem. As loathsome as I find Ahmadinejad it's certainly possible that he could have won. Even by a good degree. The problem is that the Iranian election system is so closed and their society is so devoid of personal freedom in certain areas that it casts a cloud over any election that they hold.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
More photos here, including dead people shot in the head.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_disputed_election.html

I won't post those, you have to go to the site and click to have them displayed.

BTW Obama can't comment explicitly on what is going on, otherwise it will give Ahmadinejad credibility (as in, opposition=USA/Israel). He has to let this thing go on. The outcome of this is up to Iranians.

Some pics:

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Newsflash Keith Olbermann, Ayatollah Khomenei is dead and has been for quite some time. Iran's current Supreme Leader is Ayatollah Khamenei.
 

Poigea

Member
I don't post much in the OT and am not a huge Obama fan, but his message was exactly what I want American foreign policy to be and I think was pretty much perfectly stated. I gained much respect for Obama's handling of Foreign Affairs after this.

I have been fascinated with Iranian politics the last couple of weeks. Thank you for everyone in this thread for keeping it up to date and pointing people to good sources for up to date information.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Hey gaf Iranians. Good luck. Seriously. The future of the Middle and Near East and the future of Islamic democracy are in your hands one way or another. Maybe quickly in a hopefully peaceful revolution, maybe slowly in future elections and beyond, but I wish you the best of luck. Your country has always held the promise of what a progressive Islamic country in that region could look like.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
norinrad21 said:
The ayatollahs are shitting their pants right now, they really never saw this coming :lol :lol :lol

You do know that a lot, if not the majority, of the ayatullahs are calling the election invalid, right?
 
will it really matter if amadinejhad wins or loses? what can this other guy bring to the table that's so far different? the Mullahs run everything in the end anyway, right?
 

Tamanon

Banned
evil solrac v3.0 said:
will it really matter if amadinejhad wins or loses? what can this other guy bring to the table that's so far different? the Mullahs run everything in the end anyway, right?

It would matter more with regards to how other countries interact with Iran. If you don't have a crazy man giving the official position of your country constantly then you're already a step up.
 
evil solrac v3.0 said:
will it really matter if amadinejhad wins or loses? what can this other guy bring to the table that's so far different? the Mullahs run everything in the end anyway, right?


You have to understand that in order to run as a candidate you have to be approved by those representing islamic law in Iran.

That in itself should get you the idea that Mousavi is only -slightly- less of a dipshit than Achmnajijajjadjihad.

Anyway, any clips of fox coverage?
 

syllogism

Member
colinisation said:
Will it change the outcome of the election: Nope.

Will it calm the protests: Possibly.

Conclusion: Not pointless.
Well pointless from my viewpoint, obviously they are doing it to calm the protests

e:
The guardian council has ruled out annulling the election, according its spokesman Abbas Ali Kadkhodaee, according to Robert Tait, who is monitoring Iran's state radio.

Many reformist believe that the level of tampering has been so extreme that re-counting votes would be futile. But Kadkhodaee said annulment was "not an option", Tait reports.
The opposition wants more than a recount in the disputed areas, according to Reuters.

An senior ally of defeated candidates Mousavi and Karroubi said they wanted a rerun rather than a recount of "a few ballot boxes".

A guardian council spokesman said it was "ready to recount the disputed ballot boxes claimed by some candidates, in the presence of their representatives."

"It is possible that there may be some changes in the tally after the recount," spokesman Abbasali Kadkhodai was quoted as saying by the official IRNA news agency.
 

Chrono

Banned
GSG Flash said:
You do know that a lot, if not the majority, of the ayatullahs are calling the election invalid, right?

Because they love justice and their people too much? :lol

All elections of the last 30 years are invalid. They're panicking. More so because of the revolutionary guard taking over than the people out in the streets. The only honest ones are the ones that were already against velayet faqih, THIS IS THEIR TIME TO STRIKE.
 

thefro

Member
Here's my Machiavellian idea:

- contact the folks tweeting in Iran, ask them for to find home addresses of key government people (senior management, army, not generals/ayatollahs but a step below)

- set up fake twitter accounts from "Iran"

- leak those government addresses out over twitter as our "location" so that Basij goons come and trash the place and beat people up

This hopefully would accomplish the following:
1) might anger these officials into flipping sides
2) takes top-level experience out of government
3) would make current regime super paranoid.
4) wastes Basij's time messing with people who who support them

Of course, there's obviously some big moral downsides to implementing the whole idea (i.e., is the address wrong?), but I think the tactic could certainly be effective as far as helping the protesters out.
 
I have only a vague idea of whats going on in Iran, but I hope things are set right soon. With that many people unhappy, things could get real ugly, realy fast.
 

EMBee99

all that he wants is another baby
With the digital aspect of this turmoil, I wonder if Anonymous will get involved at some point. Seems right up their alleys.

Seriously, the rest of the world should be fighting this with information that casts the evildoers in the harshest light possible instead of the typical 'merican mindset of dropping bombs and making glass.
 
While I support the protesters in the general sense that elections should be open and fair and transparent exactly so these sorts of situations don't arise in the first place, you always have to be open to data from all sides especially when most of us don't actually live in that society.

The counterpoints for example.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../06/14/AR2009061401757.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23745.html
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misconceptions_meet_iranian_reality#

That being said I support any attempts to improve freedom of speech and remove that veil of authoritarian power that controls that society.
 

Azih

Member
Stoney Mason said:
While I support the protesters in the general sense that elections should be open and fair and transparent exactly so these sorts of situations don't arise in the first place, you always have to be open to data from all sides especially when most of us don't actually live in that society.
Exactly. I've always been weirded out by the tendency for people outside of a society to form their entire view of that society by the members of it that they talk to.
 

esbern

Junior Member
Stoney Mason said:
While I support the protesters in the general sense that elections should be open and fair and transparent exactly so these sorts of situations don't arise in the first place, you always have to be open to data from all sides especially when most of us don't actually live in that society.

The counterpoints for example.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../06/14/AR2009061401757.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23745.html
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misconceptions_meet_iranian_reality#

That being said I support any attempts to improve freedom of speech and remove that veil of authoritarian power that controls that society.


read this sentence from the politico article and tell me you don't see the stupid:


They ignore the fact that Ahmadinejad’s 62.6 percent of the vote in this year’s election is essentially the sameas the 61.69 percent he received in the final count of the 2005 presidential election, when he trounced former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. The shock of the “Iran experts” over Friday’s results is entirely self-generated, based on their preferred assumptions and wishful thinking.

I mean, thats a pile of bullshit statistics right there. The final round isn't even remotely related to Ahmadinejad vs. all of the contenders.

and here's 538 on the Washington Post poll:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/did-polling-predict-ahmadinejad-victory.html
 

thefro

Member
I think the fact that the pro-Ahmadinejad forces could only get about 20,000 out for a protest today (mainly government workers forced to go), should tell you all you need to know about what the real vote total was.
 
esbern said:
read this sentence from the politico article and tell me you don't see the stupid:




I mean, thats a pile of bullshit statistics right there. The final round isn't even remotely related to Ahmadinejad vs. all of the contenders.

and here's 538 on the Washington Post poll:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/did-polling-predict-ahmadinejad-victory.html

Oh like I said, I'm somewhat neutral on this whole thing in a lot of ways until more data is available. I'll check out the 538 post. And indeed there could have been widespread fraud.

My only cautionary point is that democracy, (even semi-democracy like this case in Iran) doesn't necessarily produce the results people want it to sometimes. Sometimes the "bad guys" win.

As far as a personal level I hope Mousavi wins and there was fraud. I'm just saying people need to be careful of being slightly objective.
 
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