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[mckmas8808]

yeah, not even close. you can go decade by decade, from the silent film era on, to examine world cinema and '99%' of female leads are most definitely not characterized as 'Mary Sues' of its equivalent. too many examples in great films to list, so i won't, suffice to say the generalization doesn't come close to holding water.

No, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's the other way around. 99% of the time a character is called a "Mary Sue" it's a female lead. Not that 99% of female leads are Mary Sues.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

No, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's the other way around. 99% of the time a character is called a "Mary Sue" it's a female lead. Not that 99% of female leads are Mary Sues.

oh, ok, my mistake. yeah, i get a little touchy when it comes to cinema, it's one of those thing i really don't want spoiled for any reason. meh.

 

[Vaelka]

No, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's the other way around. 99% of the time a character is called a "Mary Sue" it's a female lead. Not that 99% of female leads are Mary Sues.

Well obviously because it's a gender term.
The male equivelant is '' Gary Stu ''.

But I do agree with you in a sense too it's like how people call women sluts/ slutty for showing skin but then male characters can run around in loincloths and conveniently be out of shirts every day and no one calls them anything like that or even draws attention to it.

 

[mckmas8808]

It was inevitable, it's not her fault if the others are much more ignorant about everything, they don't have the same technology as her (and she acquired that almost by mistake)

It was made to create a contrast between people with a focus and knowledge like her and sylens and the rest of the world, the protagoniost must have some special talent\uniqness after all.

A lot of plot points circle arounds the focus network of the shadow carja etc. if everyone had a focus the plot wouldn't work.

I hate the fact that you had to spell that out, because it's literally the full back drop of the game's story. If someone doesn't know or understand what you just explained, they probably didn't play HZD. Or they only played it for 30 minutes. Like you said, if most of the characters knew what Aloy knows; the whole premise of the story is broken and wouldn't work. It wouldn't be the same game.

And her special talent isn't something special about her specifially, (like you said) it the technology that she acquires by accident. For me it made the story fun and great to play.

 

[GymWolf]

I hate the fact that you had to spell that out, because it's literally the full back drop of the game's story. If someone doesn't know or understand what you just explained, they probably didn't play HZD. Or they only played it for 30 minutes. Like you said, if most of the characters knew what Aloy knows; the whole premise of the story is broken and wouldn't work. It wouldn't be the same game.

And her special talent isn't something special about her specifially, (like you said) it the technology that she acquires by accident. For me it made the story fun and great to play.

That's nothing, i'm more mad at people who shit on the plot because he tells the story with a lot of audiolog and holograms...

HOW IN THE FUCK you tell a story with a jump of over 1000 years without fucking audiologs and holograms from the past? there is any semi-realistic scifi story with a time jump that big that doesn't use audiologs or holograms?

What they can do? having people who lived 1000 years in the game just to make gamers with the attention span of a 5 years old happy?

Some of the most powerful scenes are in form of holograms, ted faro killing the alphas is a more powerfull scene than anything inside the last 5 ac games combined...

And tbh, the holograms were better acted than the mediocre and stiff acting during the talking part with any npc (they partially fixed that on the dlc tho)

 

[Danjin44]

It was inevitable, it's not her fault if the others are much more ignorant about everything, they don't have the same technology as her (and she acquired that almost by mistake)

It was made to create a contrast between people with a focus and knowledge like her and sylens and the rest of the world, the protagoniost must have some special talent\uniqness after all.

A lot of plot points circle arounds the focus network of the shadow carja etc. if everyone had a focus the plot wouldn't work.

Its not just about her knowing more than others, she mostly has to fight alone because apparently everyone else around her incompetent in fighting compare to her.

Like I said in my previous posts what really like about Balsa in Moribito is she is strong because she is fighting against enemies who are equally as skill as her which makes her victory that much meaningful.


In my opinion Guerrilla went with most boring way creating "strong female lead".

 

[mckmas8808]

Its not just about her knowing more than others, she mostly has to fight alone because apparently everyone else around her incompetent in fighting compare to her.

Like I said in my previous posts what really like about Balsa in Moribito is she is strong because she is fighting against enemies who are equally as skill as her which makes her victory that much meaningful.


In my opinion Guerrilla went with most boring way creating "strong female lead".

Or did they create a lead for HZD that's a female that gets stronger? I don't think they did what you are saying they did.

 

[GymWolf]

Its not just about her knowing more than others, she mostly has to fight alone because apparently everyone else around her incompetent in fighting compare to her.

Like I said in my previous posts what really like about Balsa in Moribito is she is strong because she is fighting against enemies who are equally as skill as her which makes her victory that much meaningful.


In my opinion Guerrilla went with most boring way creating "strong female lead".

they are not incompetent, depends of who you help, they join the final battle and stand their ground, and in some big missions she is with some tribe or some npc helping her.

She is mostly in a solo mission because:

-she prefer to stay alone and some places where she go are not exactly big enough to have an army in it (like most of the modern complex she visit)
-not everyone believes her
-many have more important stuff to do (debatable sure, but still a good enough excuse)


Also it's a videogame with a single protagonist, nobody want to hunt dinobot and assaulting camps with the constant help of 50 guys.

 

[balls of snow]

Aloy really seems to have broken some people around here.



Usually a boring "perfect" character. The type that seems to have no flaws and is good at everything with seemingly no effort.

Like Rey from the new star wars movies

Not as much as Abby. Now there was a forum breaker.

 

[GymWolf]

Lord where to even begin with this.

1: "No real flaws" From the very beginning of the game you see she has anger issues. Her obsession with learning about who her mother takes precedent on building any kind of relationship with anyone else. maybe not serious flaws, but damn nowhere was it ever implied that she is perfect.

2: "Extreme physical prowess, that surpasses everybody else due to genetics apparently" Where the hell you deduce this from? There was a training montage, where yeah only a few minutes if you did the math she was training for OVER TEN YEARS. Nothing about that at all is genetics that's hard damn work to get to where she was.

3: "Overflowing with love and compassion for everybody else, " This is a bad thing? As soon as she became a seeker, Teersa said "no doubt there will be people in need of help" In essence helping people was part of the job.

4: "Is hit on constantly by male characters. Never has to earn anybody's attention." Technically she was only hit one by Erend. Avad felt it was dutiful to have a replacement for Erasa. Aloy, basically hit on Varl, not the other way around. And Nil, was Nil. So no, you're off on that one as well.

Lastly

5: "So is Aloy a believable character dear gaffing boys and girls" Let's see Horizon is a franchise that takes place a thousand years in the future where after an apocalypse created by robots that ate people and plants as food, where primitive people rebuild society while dealing with robot animals and dinosaurs. What the hell about any of that is believable? What most normal people do is check reality at the door and not bring our everyday crap into it and have fun few hours.

Varl was thirst AF imo

 

[Danjin44]

Also it's a videogame with a single protagonist, nobody want to hunt dinobot and assaulting camps with the constant help of 50 guys.

All I'm asking she would have someone she could rely on make the side character little more capable. After finishing the game I can't recall a single side character from this game, none of them are memorable.

 

[GymWolf]

What is a Mary Sue?

this is a good example

 

[captainnapalm]

You can return to his house at (ir)regular intervals. Alloy will kneel before his grave and speak to him about what she has accomplished so far and how her journey is going. It's a nice touch that shows that he was the closest thing to a parent that Alloy ever had. And that she misses him.

People are not understanding 100% what a Mary Sue is, methinks. A Mary Sue isn't immune to failure, but more like, she's a character whose personality is almost devoid of flaws and a character who seems to attract anyone she meets.

However, it's not that Alloy is a Mary Sue as much as almost all female characters are presented as more capable, more rational, more just and more worthy in general than the male characters. It's like the game is purposefully trying to invert the archaic trope of men outperforming women and turns it into women outperforming men ... which is just as bad, in my opinion.

Most male characters covet the positions and abilities of other females characters, are in no way worthy of their station compared to their female counterparts and generally act as if they live in 10.000 BC while the women appear to be living in 2.000 AD. The theme of Girl Power is strong in this game, to the point it looks like propaganda.

Early in the game Alloy meets a wounded man who wanted to find his missing daughter, because she's searching for her dead mother's spear. The wounded man wastes no time to inform Alloy that his dead wife was a better hunter and craftsman than he was (openly confessing his inferiority) and begs for Alloy's assistance.

The leader of the Hunter's Guild is a sneaky little bastard who tries to prevent women from rivalling him and challenging him for his position (greedily clinging to his male power, unwilling to let the better woman take over). When Alloy and a female hunter (who believes is worthier of the title) find the male hunter leader, he attempts to kill a thunderjaw, only to die in five seconds. Alloy and her teammate Talanah succeed where he has failed. When they return, Talanah announced that she's the leader now and that more 'progressive' ways of ranking the hunters of the lodge will now succeed the old, bigoted ways. If this isn't a metaphor, I don't know what is.

In the Frozen Wilds DLC, there are two siblings who argue over what has to be done. A brother and a sister. Guess who is wrong, guess who is right, guess who regrets his behavior after a few game hours.

There is a clear attempt at Horizon of showing you that men are unworthy of their power and their station, women are better at combat, strategy, reasoning, hunting, virtually everything - they're simply portrayed as the superior sex.

If anything, Horizon is one of the few pop culture experiences I recently had which made me realize how utterly infuriating it must have been for women all those years to witness movies and read literature where female characters were always surpassed by the male ones and would often only be used as sexual rewards for the male protagonists, prizes, damsels in distress or even comic relief.

But inverting the propaganda from one side to the other is not the solution. True equality is needed.

Yeah, but the thing is, the propaganda was never that bad on the other side, at least not in a very long time. That's a strawman, that's trying to right a wrong that was never that wrong to begin with, which is precisely why modern woke writing is often so bad. I'm sure you could point to some egregious examples here and there, but the idea that men in the past set out just to write action or sci-fi or fantasy stories with the point of making men or white men look great, while making other groups look bad - certainly nothing genuinely good or influential in pop culture history in at least the last 40 years set out to do that - probably longer.

But the people who made HZD clearly set out to make women seem superior to men - and it's pretty creepy if you're paying attention. You see this with modern woke stuff all the time - the is story concerned with almost nothing other than either promoting some or other identity group or gender, or bashing it. A character's race or gender or sexuality is the most important thing about that character, and they can't face any real adversity or have flaws.

 

[GymWolf]

All I'm asking she would have someone she could rely on make the side character little more capable. After finishing the game I can't recall a single side character from this game, none of them are memorable.

Majority of the side cast being forgettable is another thing entirely, and i can partially be with you on that, although i still loved a couple of them.

But they are not incompetent in the sense that they can't fight etc.

Many of them have history of numerous battles, you don't stay alive and become general of your tribe without being an excellent fighter, and like i said, she has a focus to learn all the dinobot weak points and a spear to mind control them, those are HUGE advantages compared to even the best warrior.

The story just focus on her personal journey, exactly like nier automata talks about 2b, why they only send her and not 1000 units at once in that game? videogame story breh.

 

[Danjin44]

The story just focus on her personal journey, exactly like nier automata talks about 2b, why they only send her and not 1000 units at once in that game? videogame story breh.

Well because 2B's true mission is to keep eye on 9S and when he get close to the truth then she would kill him.

 

[oagboghi2]

Because it is a dumb ass thread, that's why. There's nothing different from Aloy in HZD, than most other characters in video games. You could say the same thing for Nathan Drake, Agent 47, Dante, etc. Why Aloy? And why now?

Uhh maybe because HZD is in the news for obvious reasons.

You could say the same thing about any of those games, but would you be here crying and whining the way you are here. No, you wouldn't.

But for some reason, you feel the need to defend the honor of a female cartoon character. Holy shit, this is sad

And yet the term is used 99% of the time for female characters in games, movies, and TV shows. I wonder why....

No it isn't, but it's clear you are okay with just making up shit now.

It's a vehicle for power-fantasy action for the player. I don't want to kick ass in the action gameplay only to shift to a cutscene where the protagonist fails and cries while eating a pint of Ben and Jerry's alone in her post-apocalyptic hut. Thankfully Aloy eats her Chunky Monkey off-screen.

We've seen with Geralt, Kratos, and Arthur Morgan that you can have well-rounded characters written with pathos, and still indulge in the power fantasies players wants.

Maybe Guerilla games just doesn't have the writing skill to pull that off.

 

[GymWolf]

1. Her anger always leads her to positive outcomes though. Its not like it negatively impacts her in any way.

2. But aren't everybody else training like her from a young age too? With better support?

3. Its not a bad thing per se, but she seems overly compassionate for someone for the level of stress she currently has going on in her life. Like she could be in life threatening danger and she is still a selfless mother teresa. It doesn't stamp her as a mary sue but just one of the things that when added up with others can convincingly paint her as one in my opinion.

4.When did Aloy hit on varl? And Avad just offering her role of queen was too forced imo.

5. That's not how writing works. GRR Martin is acclaimed for believable non Mary sue characters. Is his setting with dragons flying around and Ice walls believable? You can have fantasy settings but as a writer your fundamental role is to create believable characters, no matter what the setting is.

Are we forgetting the fucking super sayan arya stark? if her upgrades (and how he obtains them) in the books are nowhere near the buffonery that i saw in the serial that little bitch is the most undeservedly op character in the show by a long shot

 

[GymWolf]

Well because 2B's true mission is to keep eye on 9S and when he get close to the truth then she would kill him.

Yeah i remember jack shit about the plot of that game, maybe it wasn't the right example.

but you get the point, thousand of videogames have a forced solitary protagonist.

And she is not really alone, most of the big battles or assaults are with some tribe or at least some npc who help her, and she literally get her ass saved by sylens when the villain capture her.

 

[Danjin44]

but you get the point, thousand of videogames have a forced solitary protagonist.

But there are games even with solitary protagonist have side characters they have chemistry with like Cole did with Zeke in InFAMOUS which made it that much more impactful killing him in evil route in 2nd game.

Aloy has no one like that, this is why she awkwardly has to talk to herself, Guerrilla spend too much time try to make her "badass female lead" instead of proper character we should care about.

 

[GymWolf]

But there are games even with solitary protagonist have side characters they have chemistry with like Cole did with Zeke in InFAMOUS which made it that much more impactful killing him in evil route in 2nd game.

Aloy has no one like that, this is why she awkwardly has to talk to herself, Guerrilla spend too much make her "badass female lead" instead of proper character we should care about.

I mean, i love infamous to death, but it's not like zeke was that much of a help for cole, it was a nice character but not more than that.

Like i said, i share some of the sentiment about the weak side cast, i'm not gonna find many excuse for that.

For me it was not a big problem because usually in open world games is hard for me to care about more than 3-5 characters, most of them are forgettable, so having already aloy, rost, sylens, erend plus someone else that i didn't disliked was kinda enough for me.

it's not like you have 20 incredible characters in many open world games...

One thing that i can say is that i loved the armour design\hair design\lore of horizon world, so even the uninteresting character were already kinda interesting for me because they had something interesting to say about the world or just a cool haircut or armour, i think you can share the sentiment than when you love a game world so much, many things appear much better and more interesting than what they really are.

 

[Umbral]

Well obviously because it's a gender term.
The male equivelant is '' Gary Stu ''.

But I do agree with you in a sense too it's like how people call women sluts/ slutty for showing skin but then male characters can run around in loincloths and conveniently be out of shirts every day and no one calls them anything like that or even draws attention to it.

That's because men and women are not the same.

 

[Danjin44]

t's not like you have 20 incredible characters in many open world games...

I don't need 20, it would only take 1 side character that Aloy would have kind of chemistry with that get me get attached to the world and story sadly there was none.

 

[Green_Eyes]

The term came out of a short, satirical piece of Star Trek fanfiction that Paula Smith published in Menagerie, a Star Trek fanzine, in 1973. In "A Trekkie's Tale," Lt. Mary Sue grabs the attention of...

In case it was not sarcasm.

Try 1960 (1 min in):

 

[GymWolf]

I don't need 20, it would only take 1 side character that Aloy would have kind of chemistry with that get me get attached to the world and story sadly there was none.

For me it was sylens, i adored that son of a bitch far more than any character in the game.

I hope they don't dumb him down in the sequel just because he is probably gonna be one of the villains.

 

[LMJ]

A common misconception I see that seems to get parroted is that Mary Sue means the female character in question...

Doesn't have a struggle

Is handed their powers/gifts/opportunity etc

Is more important than the other characters etc

While all of these CAN create a Mary Sue, the term Mary Sue comes from something far more insidious at it's core in my opinion...the death of ACTUAL femininity, AKA writing a female character more like a male character so as to "protect" females from negative stereotypes, all while creating NEW stereotypes that are equally or even more harmful in the grand scheme of things.


To illustrate this I will use a popular Disney Character who is both a great female lead...and a Mary Sue, yup it's a classic vs shitty remake MULAN

In the animated original Mulan was a clumsy but relatable girl, she was in a world of extreme sexism and simply wanted to find out what she was meant for even has a song for such. He loyalty and love of her family caused her to take her fathers place to the call against the Huns despite knowing if she is found to be a female she will be put to death. Through hardship and brutal work not to mention using her intellect she is soon befriending soldiers and fighting alongside them despite rocky starts. This hard fighting Disney (Princess?) heroine is soon discovered to be female after making a risky tactical move and taking a blow that takes her out and is banished from the army as opposed to death as she had saved the generals life. In the end Mulan's friendship loyalty to China and skill are tested to take down the remaining Huns and their fearful leader in this animated classic.

In the new Mulan, she is the most skilled child with perfect Chi (chi is magical now btw) she is told the world (again extreme sexism) wants to hold her down and thus is told to hide her "incredible" talent. She doesn't join the army as it seems to be the ONLY way to save her father, but more as a convenient way to "prove" herself. She doesn't enter the army scared and confused forced to adapt and learn and thus overcome weakness like the animated version, but instead is better than ALL the other soldiers naturally despite her "chi" being weakened(Ill explain in a moment) The Huns are the Rouran army this round and have a witch (yup magical chi witch) who confronts Mulan and tells her that by concealing her womanhood she is weakening her "chi" Mulan CHOOSES to reveal herself to the general before being vanished and through the friendships that were thrown upon her and her natural talent defeats the witch (she was oppressed too FYI) and saves China...

The second just sounds droll doesn't it, the first film will be remembered more because the girl struggled, overcame and prospered, but she still was human and laughed, cried, failed and even needed help BTW see that flat face on the remake Mulan, well that's the entire movie which leads me to my point...

The thing is in an attempt to fix the weak female trope the entertainment industry has gone to far and all but removed the female aspect of most heroines, the result is an over powerful, often flat faced emotionless almost robotic character that doesn't NEED help and can do it on their own thus proving that they are worthy. The problem with this is it's the differences in our sexes that MAKE men and women unique, there is nothing wrong with overcoming that (again Mulan) but you don't need to sacrifice everything that makes women well...women in the process.

There will always be outliers, but women (more than men) can rely on sex appeal more than the opposite sex, they tend to be more emotional at time, they are built weaker when it comes to mass and muscle and are often smaller in stature and size. When we romanticize the human form they tend to be buxom and sexy and there is nothing wrong with that, nor is there a more slender build. The majority of women will find attraction to something they come across (most often a man) and relationships AREN'T poison nor is said attraction. Women can fuck up just as much as a man, and just LIKE a man those mistakes can HELP US GROW!

That in my opinion is the primary issue with the Mary Sue trope by getting rid of femininity we have robbed what could have been great characters of part of their humanity, and yes Aloy definitely fits into many of these latter issues, but she is far better than most.

Game still looks fire though lol

 

[Woopah]

She's a normal video game protagonist. She's no more of a Mary Sue than Nathan Drake, Kratos, etc.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

All the talk about Forbidden West these days have gotten me thinking

more about my 70 plus hours with the original game and how, despite my enjoyment of it, I couldn't find myself relating to most characters in the game, especially Aloy.

Reasons why she can be a Mary sue:

- No real flaws. Nada. Tendency to get angry

but whenever she is angry she turns out to be right, proving to be wiser than even experienced rulers far older than her.

- Extreme physical prowess, that surpasses everybody else due to genetics apparently, despite a training environment inferior to other hunters who had way more resources and help to train with.

- Is hit on constantly by male characters. Never has to earn anybody's attention.
- Overflowing with love and compassion for everybody else, and goes out of her way to show concerned facial expressions in every darn cinematic.

- Does not ever fail meaningfully. Never has to learn a lesson. She teaches everybody else lessons. People older than her usually. Succeeds at every endeavor she undertakes with no meaningful effort from her part to improve.

- Social skills rivaling a politician, despite being a wildling for a lifetime.

So is Aloy a believable character dear gaffing boys and girls?

If Aloy is a Mary Sue according to all this, then Shepherd from Mass Effect is a (whatever is a male version of a Mary Sue) also.

It's kinda the nature of the beast with this kind of RPG-type game.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Lord where to even begin with this.

1: "No real flaws" From the very beginning of the game you see she has anger issues. Her obsession with learning about who her mother takes precedent on building any kind of relationship with anyone else. maybe not serious flaws, but damn nowhere was it ever implied that she is perfect.

2: "Extreme physical prowess, that surpasses everybody else due to genetics apparently" Where the hell you deduce this from? There was a training montage, where yeah only a few minutes if you did the math she was training for OVER TEN YEARS. Nothing about that at all is genetics that's hard damn work to get to where she was.

3: "Overflowing with love and compassion for everybody else, " This is a bad thing? As soon as she became a seeker, Teersa said "no doubt there will be people in need of help" In essence helping people was part of the job.

4: "Is hit on constantly by male characters. Never has to earn anybody's attention." Technically she was only hit one by Erend. Avad felt it was dutiful to have a replacement for Erasa. Aloy, basically hit on Varl, not the other way around. And Nil, was Nil. So no, you're off on that one as well.

Lastly

5: "So is Aloy a believable character dear gaffing boys and girls" Let's see Horizon is a franchise that takes place a thousand years in the future where after an apocalypse created by robots that ate people and plants as food, where primitive people rebuild society while dealing with robot animals and dinosaurs. What the hell about any of that is believable? What most normal people do is check reality at the door and not bring our everyday crap into it and have fun few hours.

Basically, this.

 

[spawn]

Every game protagonist is a Mary Sue. Doom guy, Nathan Drake, Lara Croft, Master Chief, Geralt

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Every game protagonist is a Mary Sue. Doom guy, Nathan Drake, Lara Croft, Master Chief, Geralt

Nathan Drake gets the shit beaten out of him by a woman in Uncharted 4.

 

[Goalus]

That's because men and women are not the same.

How dare you.

 

[Stuart360]

She's more of an Oprah.

 

[spawn]

Nathan Drake gets the shit beaten out of him by a woman in Uncharted 4.

He has killed probably over 2,000 people singlehandedly himself. Often times being outnumbered

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

He has killed probably over 2,000 people singlehandedly himself. Often times being outnumbered

Doesn't matter how many no name characters are killed.

 

[spawn]

Doesn't matter how many no name characters are killed.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Not really. One of the characteristics of a Mary Sue is that they always win. Uncharted 4 depicted Drake as a loser in so many aspects.

 

[Cactuarman]

While I certainly agree that the live-action Mulan is much worse, I don't understand how you're connecting your points - particularly since IMO the animated Mulan is less feminine than the live-action Mulan.

I got a bit of whiplash reading your comment...

The second just sounds droll doesn't it, the first film will be remembered more because the girl struggled, overcame and prospered, but she still was human and laughed, cried, failed

Hell yeah...

The thing is in an attempt to fix the weak female trope the entertainment industry has gone to far and all but removed the female aspect of most heroines

Wait what? You just cited a movie where they don't lean into the lead character's femininity as the good example.

You mention "the death of ACTUAL femininity" but as I said the animated Mulan isn't very feminine, and the movie makes that pretty clear. It doesn't celebrate femininity or masculinity or any particular distinguishing trait - it celebrates looking past superficial traits and archaic roles. The movie also doesn't end on any kind of "and now Mulan can go back to being feminine" point - she just is who she is which is somewhere between both ends of the spectrum shown in the movie. She gets to go home and just be Mulan while everyone else learns not to judge a book by its cover.

The movie even shows us "masculine" soldiers that, frankly, shouldn't be serving - they just have to because they're men. Mulan learns and grows and helps others learn and grow.

The live-action movie is bad because it's poorly written - the characters aren't fun or interesting, and it takes one theme that it hopes will carry the movie and fails to do it even remotely well. It's completely hollow.

I think the live-action Mulan is more of a Mary Sue than the animated one, but I would also argue that the animated Mulan is also less feminine.

Edit: And also no Aloy is not a Mary Sue. Maybe she's more of one than some other example someone could find, but Aloy is not portrayed as perfect or without flaws. And her "femininity" has nothing to do with it.

 

[oagboghi2]

Every game protagonist is a Mary Sue. Doom guy, Nathan Drake, Lara Croft, Master Chief, Geralt

Being a main character who wins fights is not a Mary Sue.

 

[LMJ]

While I certainly agree that the live-action Mulan is much worse, I don't understand how you're connecting your points - particularly since IMO the animated Mulan is less feminine than the live-action Mulan.

I got a bit of whiplash reading your comment...



Hell yeah...



Wait what? You just cited a movie where they don't lean into the lead character's femininity as the good example.

Here's the thing, I chose Mulan for a specific reason as it's a movie ABOUT overcoming gender roles etc, femininity is more than looking pretty, it is emotion, attraction, and the things that help us to find them relatable. The NEW Mulan, (based on the animated one) she is an emotionless robot, hardly any humanity and yes females and males can evoke emotion

Here Mulan KNOWS she can't over power her foe, so she uses her intelligence, speed and training to succeed...in a modern movie she would likely just overtake him (again Mulan remake)

You mention "the death of ACTUAL femininity" but as I said the animated Mulan isn't very feminine, and the movie makes that pretty clear. It doesn't celebrate femininity or masculinity or any particular distinguishing trait - it celebrates looking past superficial traits and archaic roles.

Yes, but while also showing these things exist and don't nessacarily define us, Mulan IS a girl, she can be a girl, she can act feminine and even have romantic interests (the end of the movie) While certainly no delicate flower she is by far the worst represented in their remake (and that's saying something) She didn't have to sacfifice any semblance of being female to be powerful.

The movie also doesn't end on any kind of "and now Mulan can go back to being feminine" point - she just is who she is which is somewhere between both ends of the spectrum shown in the movie. She gets to go home and just be Mulan while everyone else learns not to judge a book by its cover.

This Unfeminine Mulan literally uses sex appeal (they disguise as cortisones) to infiltrate the palace, and falls for the General (remember his shirtless scene where she makes the ooh face) She shows remorse and sorrow at the death of the formal general and citizens such as the young girl) She is plenty feminine in the beginning, a lovely girl, but as mentioned she's clumsy and wants more (all Disney girls do FYI) she also like you said goes back to being Mulan, the Mulan whom is happily being courted by the general again she laughs, she can be humiliated and sad just as much as laugh and smile (and lets pretend that shitshow that is Mulan 2 doesn't exist)

The movie even shows us "masculine" soldiers that, frankly, shouldn't be serving - they just have to because they're men. Mulan learns and grows and helps others learn and grow.

The live-action movie is bad because it's poorly written - the characters aren't fun or interesting, and it takes one theme that it hopes will carry the movie and fails to do it even remotely well. It's completely hollow.

I think the live-action Mulan is more of a Mary Sue than the animated one, but I would also argue that the animated Mulan is also less feminine.

Nah I agree 100% that the live action version is caca and a complete MS (my point), in regards to the "non manly soldiers" yeah, that's a mandatory enrollment, I would even argue that aside from Ling (the scrawny soldier) the rest are portrayed as pretty manly FYI.

Again I'm not saying a female needs to be a pretty princess to be a female lead/heroine (Riply, OG Sarah Connor etc), but that as it currently stands we are robbing potential new characters of all forms of media of any depth as we're going to far. They have essentially become like B movie action stars with a tragic backstory, the inability to laugh, a stern look at all times and non emotional just sad....at least action stars had some good one liners lol

 

[hyperbertha]

Basically, this.

If Aloy is a Mary Sue according to all this, then Shepherd from Mass Effect is a (whatever is a male version of a Mary Sue) also.

It's kinda the nature of the beast with this kind of RPG-type game.

It seems you don't understand what a mary sue is. Shepard is nowhere near one, and neither is drake or kratos.

 

[Trunim]

Probably the number one reason I'm not interested in Horizon. The main character takes up such a big room but fills it with nothing.

 

[SLB1904]

You can replace aloy name with any character and it will work the same.
Praise the Lord for the ignore thread feature

 

[somesang]

What's happening to this forum?

I've been here awhile. It's always been like this.

 

[hyperbertha]

You can replace aloy name with any character and it will work the same.
Praise the Lord for the ignore thread feature

I can think of very few characters in gaming that are Mary sues. Joel in tlou1 most definitely wasn't. Your argument doesn't work.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Ok, since this thread is still alive, i think i'll try to give a serious answer to hyperbertha

Among writers, what often defines a Mary Sue or Gary Stu aren't particular traits of the character but rather the relationship of the character with the world of the story. Essentially, we can consider a character a Mary/Gary Sue/Stu when the world in which they're part of bends to their favor, often to satisfy their ego, and the readers/writer ego by extension often.

Like for example, if we have a situation where every character that disagrees or opposes the main character is portrayed as "wrong or "evil, while all the ones that agree and support him are the "good guys", we could have a (M/G)ary in our hands, regardless of this character being ultra OP or anything.

 

[SinDelta]

That's nothing, i'm more mad at people who shit on the plot because he tells the story with a lot of audiolog and holograms...

HOW IN THE FUCK you tell a story with a jump of over 1000 years without fucking audiologs and holograms from the past? there is any semi-realistic scifi story with a time jump that big that doesn't use audiologs or holograms?

What they can do? having people who lived 1000 years in the game just to make gamers with the attention span of a 5 years old happy?

Some of the most powerful scenes are in form of holograms, ted faro killing the alphas is a more powerfull scene than anything inside the last 5 ac games combined...

And tbh, the holograms were better acted than the mediocre and stiff acting during the talking part with any npc (they partially fixed that on the dlc tho)

Spoiler: Spoilers

Still can't believe Horizon Zero Dawn managed to make a more terrible human being then Handsome Jack.

 

[tassletine]

Humans are complex, unlike what most movies, video games and Pixar movies portrait.

Unlike 99% of the games this one actually makes sense for Aloy to behave like that!

I didn't see anyone complaining about Lara Croft who went through a lot, hated tombs but no traumas in the sequel. And she goes in to ancient civilizations helping everyone like she the savior!

we are cherry picking and far reaching.

Pixar movies are complex thematically, so you're wrong there.

People also complained a lot about the more recent incarnation of Lara Croft for similar reasons. They made it too realistic, so you're wrong there too.

Please explain why this game is in the top 1% of storytelling in videogames.

 

[Valkyria]

This forum was the Agora for gaming discussion.
Now it's a nest of shit posting.

 

[Zeroing]

Pixar movies are complex thematically, so you're wrong there.

People also complained a lot about the more recent incarnation of Lara Croft for similar reasons. They made it too realistic, so you're wrong there too.

Please explain why this game is in the top 1% of storytelling in videogames.

Pixar movies are not that complex, try watching European movies. Your brain will struggle.

Lara Croft is not a realist character at all, if by realism you mean bipolar with multiple personalities that serve the plot of the game then yes. I agree on you there.

Horizon it's not a narrative masterpiece but if you think about all the games that start and end the same way yeah that game is a wee bit different.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

This forum was the Agora for gaming discussion.
Now it's a nest of shit posting.

so honest question: what other forum offers better? i mean, won't there always be s-posting in any forum, does that take away from some of the great posting that occurs here? just asking.