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Is "freshness" the secret to Wii's success?
- Thread starter DenogginizerOS
- Start date
ksamedi said:
Is that really what you took from the NES era? I disagree completely.
Atari 2600 was all about games with a singular concept and exciting gameplay. For me, NES was a complete break from that. Starting with Mario, and blowing right past it with games like Legend of Zelda, StarTropics, Crystalis, etc. I don't see how the great games on NES have anything in common with Wii Sports, Wii Play, etc.
They don't. People are grasping for straws with that whole NES comparison. Wii is taking us back to a time BEFORE the NES in a lot of respects.theBishop said:
The NES proved that videogames could offer exciting, full length adventures rather than quick fixes. NES is the basis on which modern games were built. The popular Wii titles are of a different breed.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
theBishop said:
And yet you think that the Wii couldn't provide a experience with more buttons AND motion control? WTF?
Ah, the the sweet memories... I fondly remember when such argument was done about nintendogs, then about Brain Training, then about Animal Crossing, then about Brain Training 2, or English Training... how many copies of them have been sold around the world?dark10x said:
Too bad the real non-gamers are buying PS3s and PSPs :lol
DenogginizerOS
BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
masud said:
I don't think anyone is saying that. What we are wondering is what will each competitor do next to compete with the other consoles. Can PS3 or X360 counter the early appeal of the Wii's interface and game design with their price structure and graphical prowess? Will HDTV adoption rates improve and produce more consumers who want HD content over non-HD content? There are a lot of unanswered questions. Like I said, I see the industry at a big starting line and the BIG race that counts is about to start. It should be fun to see which strategy succeeds whether you are a hardcore gamer or not.
NintendosBooger
Member
How many people were sick of their PS2s during that first year before it received a steady stream of hot games? Did they sell their machines, switch to a competitor? Look at the DS --- it wasn't doing anything spectacular until the arrival of Nintendogs and Brain Training.
Software will always be the key. It's only a matter of time before Nintendo or some third party develops the killer app that will ensure high Wii sales for a long time.
Software will always be the key. It's only a matter of time before Nintendo or some third party develops the killer app that will ensure high Wii sales for a long time.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
dark10x said:
Yep, that Zelda was sure a step back. Ditto Trauma Center and Madden.
Oh Lordy! What has Nintendo Done!
DeaconKnowledge said:
standards are different. what constituted an "epic adventure" on NES wouldn't fly on Xbox360.
I see Wii as a modern, reimagined Atari. If Nintendo is able to attract non-gamers to Wii, then the games that will be successful are going to be the modern equivalents of Pong, Pac-Man, and Asteroids. Simple games that are immediately fun. People aren't going to buy Wii to play "epic" games because they will be completely overshadowed by the 360/PS3 equivalents.
And don't bother pointing to Zelda because we all know that was a Gamecube game. Zelda works as a launch title because Nintendo still has a rabid hardcore base that will eat it up. But that kind of game goes against the longterm strengths of the platform.
Woo-Fu
Banned
The Wii, at least when talking about it in relation to non-gamers and new markets is a fad. I predict that these traditionally non-gamer people who buy a Wii will not buy very much software, if any, beyond Wii Sports and that the Wii will end up in the closet gathering dust, wedged between Trivial Pursuit and Simon within 3-6 months of purchase.
Somebody presented Nintendogs and Brain Training as games that prove this theory wrong. Well, not so fast. Instead of looking at how many copies of Nintendogs or Brain Training has sold, take those numbers and compare them to the install base of the DS and DS Lite.
The real question is whether or not the 3rd party developers feel the same way? They're the ones who can make the Wii a giant success, instead of just the latest Nintendo refresh we buy to play our favorite Nintendo games on.
Somebody presented Nintendogs and Brain Training as games that prove this theory wrong. Well, not so fast. Instead of looking at how many copies of Nintendogs or Brain Training has sold, take those numbers and compare them to the install base of the DS and DS Lite.
The real question is whether or not the 3rd party developers feel the same way? They're the ones who can make the Wii a giant success, instead of just the latest Nintendo refresh we buy to play our favorite Nintendo games on.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
theBishop said:
So we're discounting Wii games now?
Do you honestly believe the casual gamer will discount these games as you so nonchalantly have?
"Don't bother to mention Zelda because it pokes a hole in my Argument." Basically.
firstly, i direct you to the ds and its incredible sw sales throughout the world, outselling psp's, a hardcore system, massively. the mainstream and these new gamers buy a lot of games.dark10x said:
secondly, ps3 sw sales are pathetic in japan. in other words, hardcore gamers are buying **** all games. wii's sw sales are amazing.
what evidence suggests to you casual gamers don't buy enough games to make a system the main platform for a generation?
wii isn't only going to deliver simple, fun gaming, it's easily capable of final fantasy, metal gear solid, yakuza, gta, etc, and these games will come if wii's success continues. there isn't a 3rd party on the planet who doesn't like profit.dark10x said:
as i said in earlier, hardcore tastes are not those of the masses, and let's be honest, they never have been.
theBishop said:
Well, considering the first Nintendo game on the NES was Mario Bros here in Europe, it is.
It is in terms of fun and accesibility. Everybody could play Mario back then so it became a hit, now eveybody can play and enjoy Wiisports and again it became a hit. Now do you see a pattern here? Wiigames will gradually evolve into more complex games and eventually we will see very complex games from different companies, but you first have to draw in those gamers that dont play anymore, or even have never played videogames.
DeaconKnowledge said:
i'm not discounting anything. I'm saying if the Wii is going to be the cultural force its fans expect it to be, Zelda is not going to drive that strategy. Gamecube had Zelda. Hell, Gamecube had Twilight Princess.
Nintendo is going to succeed on the backs of Wii Sports, Cooking Mama, Wii Music, etc. Simple games with universal appeal. Investing a lot of money in "real" games on the Wii is a waste of time.
That type of stuff is also a priority for Sony with Singstar, Eyetoy, and their fitness packages, but as you mentioned earlier PS3 is priced out of that market for more than a year.
Zoramon089
Banned
theBishop said:
WTF indeed...the way you wrote your post you made it seem you needed next gen hardware to provide an immersive experience yet you post a bunch of last gen games...And you ignore stuff like TP on the Wii which is an immersive experience
DenogginizerOS said:
It's because the Xbox 360 is mainly appealing to core and hardcore gamers, instead of the casuals and mainstream/non-gamer market like the Wii is. Seriously, games like Halo 3 are not going to change that around. The console will become very succesful and sell a lot of units, also to the casual market in the future, but you cannot compare it to what the Wii is trying to do.
Core and hardcore gamers like here on GAF are always under the assumption that their interest in games reflects that of the mass market by being convinced that stuff like MGS, Halo or even GTA are going to appeal to that market. They are also convinced that HD gaming, online play et al. are thé defining factors for breaking into the mass market.
Well, they are not and they never have been in the past. For the record, mass market in this case is more or less about the so called non-gamer group and also partly the casual gamer group. These groups are large, much larger than the core and hardcore group. Sure, you can be very succesful and have lots of sales by just appealing to the core and hardcore group (and partly the casual group as well through stuff like Madden), but you could go beyond even that. Nobody ever really tried this in the past, but It's my belief that Nintendo is trying this with DS and Wii.
I'm not saying that the Wii will eclipse the Xbox 360 or PS3 in overall sales. It could very well be that Nintendo will focus so strongly on the mass market, that they forget about the core and hardcore groups a little too much. Those groups will then flock to the X360 and PS3, together with a large part of the casual group (which will mostly likely be divided between all three platforms) and everything will even out in the end. Still, I'm convinced that this new strategy has a much bigger chance of success for Nintendo compared to their previous strategy of generally trying to just appeal to the core and hardcore group (and essentially being the same as MS and Sony).
If you are under the assumption that this is the only difference between the two controllers, you are completely missing the point of the Wii strategy.
Sure, for core and hardcore gamers it would be awesome if the SIXAXIS would also feature a distance sensor and aiming feature. Will the mass market of non-gamers care though? No they wont since they didn't care for these type of controllers in the past. The idea behind the Wii-mote is it's simplicity. It's much more accessible to a lot more people, since it has a recognizable shape (it's a remote!), doesn't have all that many buttons or other stuff (like analog sticks) and because of it's ergonomics you can simulate natural movements with it.
To a hardcore player like you, the notion of people having troubles with the complexity of a controller like the SIXAXIS may sound stupid and inane, but it is what it is. We as longtime gamers have grown used to these type of controllers over the years because we grew up with their evolution. Many other people did not though, so for them it's a much higher treshhold they have to cross before they can use a controller like that properly. It's like putting someone from a Third World country behind a Windows-based PC, or putting someone without a drivers license or any driving experience behind the steering wheel of a sportscar. Just to give you an idea.
If Sony wants to copy Nintendo's strategy and current success, they should concentrate much more on Eyetoy and make technological advances in that department. They wont though, since they are perfectly fine with appealing to the existing crowd of gamers and multimedia enthusiasts.
Just for the record: I too am kinda bored with Wii at the moment. PS2, X360 and NDS ftw! Nintendo needs to shift to the next gear within the next couple of months. Otherwise their strategy will not pay off in the longer run.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Wow, just wow....
How can people call the Wii a fad when it's still popular? Don't you have to wait for something to drop off before calling it a fad? The DS is a fad!
Also why does everyone forget that arguably the most epic game of the holidays was a Wii game. I believe that game sold pretty well. It's not like nintendo has stopped making wii games, new games will come out that will replace Wii sports and zelda.
How can people call the Wii a fad when it's still popular? Don't you have to wait for something to drop off before calling it a fad? The DS is a fad!
Also why does everyone forget that arguably the most epic game of the holidays was a Wii game. I believe that game sold pretty well. It's not like nintendo has stopped making wii games, new games will come out that will replace Wii sports and zelda.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
theBishop said:
This argument again...
Since when did Nintendo become a "non-gaming only" company? How do you explain the Nintendo titles debuting this year, as well as Nintendo's success with "real games" on the DS? GameCube didn't have Prime 3, Mario Galaxy, and so forth.
And what of third parties? Is SSX Blur or Manhunt 2 a non-game by virtue of it being on the Wii? Come on now.
For some unknown reason it seems some people here are unable to see the world except in black and white. Some people seem to think that appealing to non-gamers you turn your back to hardcore gamers, or the other way around, when reality tells us that if you offer both markets different offers, they will come to your side.Jokeropia said:
PS2 is not the best sold system because it has DMC or GTA or Metal Gear. It's because it has that, then all the sport titles, then lots of RPGs, then the Singstars, Guitar Heroes, Dance Dance Revolutions, then the Eye Toy games, then the racers, then the survival horrors, then kids games...
Appealing to different demographics is the only way to sell tons of software. The other option is being like Xbox360, where every game aimed at a young male will sell nicely, but then you release a game like Viva Piñata and it will bomb hard.
gutter_trash
Banned
there is Mario Bros.
and there is Super Mario Bros.
two different games
and there is Super Mario Bros.
two different games
Woo-Fu
Banned
Jokeropia said:
They sell a lot of software, they don't sell a lot of software for each DS/DS Lite out there. The numbers are misleading, at least when having the discussion we're having now.
You're trying to say that since non-traditional game types sell in the millions on the DS it must mean that non-traditional gamers are buying a lot of those games. It doesn't mean that. It means that there are a bazillion DS and DS Lites out there, and that some relatively small percentage of that install base is buying software for them. I've given 4 DS Lites to non-gamers, usually with a game or two, including brain age/brain training/animal crossing/etc. You know how much additional software those people have purchased? None.
...it also ignores the fact that Nintendo has a stranglehold on the portable market. Sony managed to outsell them in terms of hardware the first year of the PSP, but it has been mostly downhill from there until relatively recently. The PSP is just now starting to be a viable competitor, but the majority of potential buyers have already written it off.
I don't think the console market is much like the portable market, imho, especially when trying to draw comparisons of this nature.
Instead of trying to compare it the portable market, I'm forming my opinion based upon the gamers/non-gamers I know who have the Wii are doing. The gamer? Bought Red Steel and Madden when he got it, has no intention of buying any other games for it. They play Wii sports for an hour or two on the weekend and a little Madden now and then. The non-gamer is a friend of ours, got it because he saw our other friend playing it. So he got the Wii and got madden too.... and that was it, hasn't bought anything else, shows no intentions of buying anything else. I gave the gamer and his family a 360 for xmas. They're buying new games for it, while remaining content to play wii-sports and madden on the Wii.
The more I see, the more I begin to think that these nongamers consider the Wii to be the Wii-Sports machine, not a console that can play any number of other games. Nintendo is smart, they've already made their money up front on these people, the question still remains to be seen if they can keep making money on them.
(Disclaimer: I myself do not have a Wii. As soon as Paper Mario or Fire Emblem ship, I will have a Wii. I've always been a Nintendo fan, and am somewhat annoyed with how they handled the Gamecube---which I consider the best overall hardware of last generation. I'm hoping the Wii control scheme proves useful and entertaining for me, as nintendo's last foray into new control schemes ultimately proved a cumbersome distraction from gaming itself(touchscreen/stylus/mic).)
Mithos Yggdrasill
Banned
DenogginizerOS said:
Great post with good questions. I think that the past can be the key to interpretate the future: Nintendo is like a chamaleon: they adapt themself to the situation, with innovations and experiments.
If Sony or/and Microsoft copy Nintendo, Nintendo will search for new ideas and new ways to entertain. The past tell us exactly this: in the 80's we have had the first portable system, the first d-Pad, the first plateformers, RPGs, adventure's games, the possibility to save the game's progresses ina cartridge,....
In the '90, we have seen the first 3D-graphics, the analog joystick, the rumble pack,...
In the new millenium, we have seen the first wireless controller, the Nintendo DS, the Wii, the interaction between console and handheld,...
Even if not all innovations are successes, in the industry they represent really the challenger (like Iwata has said some days ago). The status quo doesn't satisfy Nintendo and they always wanna find something new. This is better for the industry and better for themself.
Nintendo has had so many smashing successes and even many failures, because they try to bring something new to the consumer. Sometimes it succeed (like Brain training or Nintendogs) and sometimes not (like Elektroplankton). As long as they will continue with this mentality, we'll see a lot of crazy things from Nintendo. And we know that the limit between genius and madness is very small.....
This is just the beginning.
There's going to be applications for the Wii, granted if developers truly take advantage of the Wiimote, that is going to blow all of us away. Not many people like Elebits and I can see why, but its a title that I truly adore. It was something new and refreshing. And its a sneak peak on what we can expect from titles a year or two from now.
You think the Wii is a success now... you haven't seen anything yet. Sometime next year its going to make the DS 2006 calendar year look anemic in comparison.
There's going to be applications for the Wii, granted if developers truly take advantage of the Wiimote, that is going to blow all of us away. Not many people like Elebits and I can see why, but its a title that I truly adore. It was something new and refreshing. And its a sneak peak on what we can expect from titles a year or two from now.
You think the Wii is a success now... you haven't seen anything yet. Sometime next year its going to make the DS 2006 calendar year look anemic in comparison.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Woo-Fu said:
By you're logic Ps2 games should have been selling a lot more. You figure with 100 million PS2 systems out there there should have been more 50 million sellers
DeaconKnowledge
Member
I really think I see where people who denounce Wii are coming from with this now.
They can't see past the Wiimote. Everything that Nintendo is doing is lost because of the delivery system. Games are relegated to "simple"00 because the Wiimote strays from traditional control. Instead of looking at the Wiimote as one cog in a machine, they look at it as the entire machine itself. This is where all this "Novelty" and Gimmick" speak is coming from.
People aren't paying attention to the fact that Nintendo are positioning the Wii to be the next PS2. Games like Manhunt are completely overlooked in their significance being on a Nintendo console because they're reported "last-gen" efforts, despite the fact that the majority of new games for a system are last-gen port-ups. People are dismissing the complexity of the games despite Zelda being the biggest seller on the system. People deride the graphics despite graphics never being a KEY constant in attaining market leader status. People scoff at the price and technology despite the fact that re-used resources are keeping dev costs low, which is the mantra of videogame companies as it pads their bottom line. And then these same people cannot understand why the Wii has been so successful, and then content themselves on pinning it square on the Wiimote and labeling it a novelty.
They can't see past the Wiimote. Everything that Nintendo is doing is lost because of the delivery system. Games are relegated to "simple"00 because the Wiimote strays from traditional control. Instead of looking at the Wiimote as one cog in a machine, they look at it as the entire machine itself. This is where all this "Novelty" and Gimmick" speak is coming from.
People aren't paying attention to the fact that Nintendo are positioning the Wii to be the next PS2. Games like Manhunt are completely overlooked in their significance being on a Nintendo console because they're reported "last-gen" efforts, despite the fact that the majority of new games for a system are last-gen port-ups. People are dismissing the complexity of the games despite Zelda being the biggest seller on the system. People deride the graphics despite graphics never being a KEY constant in attaining market leader status. People scoff at the price and technology despite the fact that re-used resources are keeping dev costs low, which is the mantra of videogame companies as it pads their bottom line. And then these same people cannot understand why the Wii has been so successful, and then content themselves on pinning it square on the Wiimote and labeling it a novelty.
Maybe I'm just hoping here, but I think Wii games have the opportunity to bridge the gap between these two things. Complex games with simple controls. I think their bread and butter will be simple games though. PacMan sells to a much much larger audience than FF or MGS or DMC ever will.theBishop said:
I'm loving TP though. Complex games are possible on it. And if it gets that huge simple game fanbase they're shooting for, I think the complex games will come too. It seems to have worked for the DS that way.
Well, I know this "freshness" is the reason why the DS is so successful, on top of it being cheap AND portable. I've experienced new ways to play video games with the DS, and I hope for the Wii to do the same thing. Touching your games is just awesome. Sony and Microsoft have no idea just how fun it is to interact with your video games in an entirely new way.
It's nice to have sexy graphics, surround sound and online compatibility completely standard, but feeling your games and manipulating the game you see on the screen in a completely new way is just so so cool. I do believe this is the key to their recent success.
It's nice to have sexy graphics, surround sound and online compatibility completely standard, but feeling your games and manipulating the game you see on the screen in a completely new way is just so so cool. I do believe this is the key to their recent success.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Doc Holliday said:By you're logic Ps2 games should have been selling a lot more. You figure with 100 million PS2 systems out there there should have been more 50 million sellers
not true. The ps2 had plenty of them. If you're going to pull numbers out of your ass, at least pull out ones that don't smell bad.
Furthermore, you're missing my point. I'm not saying these non-game games aren't selling, I'm saying that your assumption that it is the non-gamers buying most of them is wrong.
It doesn't really matter, not like we're going to decide the fate of the Wii by any amount of forum jousting. Nintendo will either learn to support their 3rd party developers instead of seeing them primarily as competitors---and thus succeed greatly---or they won't and thus succeed minimally.
In my case, I'll buy a Wii because I play Nintendo games. End of story.
Among the 3 constructors, it seems Nintendo will bring the more fresh things to the market in coming years, being unexpected channels such as the vote one, new IPs that will create new genres (a health game?), apps relying on the DS connectivity or peripherals that will attach to the wiimote.
So the answer is yes: freshness is one key secret to wii's success.
So the answer is yes: freshness is one key secret to wii's success.
tekneek2k6
Member
I think that Wii software sales will be better for one key reason. Appeal to multiple people within the household. Games like Wii Sports(non/party games) will sell the console into the household. Non and lapsed gamers will become more interested in playing games.
Once this happens, a good portion of them will branch out and play titles that fit whatever their individual tastes are. More complex or "epic" type games can be sold to them if the controls are fairly simple to grasp.
Additionally, more hardcore games will be produced to satisfy those who enjoy complex gaming experiences. I think the key is diversity of the game library(3rd parties) and the proper marketing of each type of title to the appropriate segment in the household.
Once this happens, a good portion of them will branch out and play titles that fit whatever their individual tastes are. More complex or "epic" type games can be sold to them if the controls are fairly simple to grasp.
Additionally, more hardcore games will be produced to satisfy those who enjoy complex gaming experiences. I think the key is diversity of the game library(3rd parties) and the proper marketing of each type of title to the appropriate segment in the household.
LegendofJoe
Member
NintendosBooger said:
It's called Wii Exercise and it will be a cultural phenomena. Has the potential to be the biggest seller of this gen IMO.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Woo-Fu said:
Ps2 had plenty of 50 million sellers?!?! :O Really? get the f out.
From Wikipededia:
TOP DS games...
- New Super Mario Bros. (8.64 million,[56] 4.12 million in Japan,[58] 2.0 million in US,[57] 1.0 million in Europe)[69]
- Nintendogs (8.53 million approximately, 5.0 million in Europe,[70] 2.1 million in US,[71][72] 1.43 million in Japan)[73]
- Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (8.51 million,[74] 3.10 million in Japan,[75] 1.1 million in US[57] 1.0 million in Europe)[69]
-Animal Crossing: Wild World (5.68 million approximately, 3.88 million in Japan,[76] 1 million in Europe[69] 800,000 in US)[77]
-Pokémon Diamond and Pearl (4.63 million approximately in Japan only)[63]
* Pokémon Diamond (2.50 million)[76]
* Pokémon Pearl (2.05 million)[78]
For comparisons sake....
Top PS2 games:
# Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (14 million)[98]
# Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (13 million)[99][100]
# Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec (11 million)[90]
# Grand Theft Auto III (11 million)[99]
# Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (7 million)[101]
I they seem pretty comparable to me, esp considering the ps2 has been out for a lot longer.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Is this the kind of thinking that has limited mankind to primitive combustion engines for so long?The Abominable Snowman said:
Kabuki Waq
Member
Shallow novelty factor is the key to its success so far.
Like a Furby or Tickle me Elmo.
Like a Furby or Tickle me Elmo.
Link
The Autumn Wind
Do you really want to make this argument? Because I can tell you right now you're going to get severely burned. Let me ask you this, are you even aware of the sell-through ratios for the games you mentioned? Because you obviously aren't.Woo-Fu said:
This may be true regarding third parties, but people don't seem to be buying the DS for the usual Nintendo suspects. And if Wii Sports and Wii Play are any indication, that's not what they're buying the Wii for either.
Confidence Man
Member
Wii owes it's success to timing as much as the novelty of it's control. Among non-gaming adults, parents, etc... I imagine there's a sense that these $400+ next-gen consoles pushing HD visuals is ridiculously excessive for silly videogames. Oh, but here's the Wii - family friendly entertainment with a funny name, lower price, and "OMG you pretend you're actually swinging a racket!" with playskool-inspired characters. It's perfect timing, really.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Woo-Fu said:
Dude, did you read my post? I never said the DS had 50 million sellers. You were arguing that DS numbers were misleading because games should be selling more because of the size of the user base. I simply said by your logic ps2 numbers were misleading.
Actually now that I think about it, I can see the Wii being a buy solely based on the novelty of just one really, really cool game. If one great game (maybe something as quirky like a Katamari-like title) can get me to purchase the system like the DS did (Kirby Canvas Curse), then I could see the Wii exploding in a year or two. Zelda is already a great reason to buy the system, and I can see amazing games coming in the near future.
I think its too early to tell. Wii is definatly hot right now, but who knows? Core gamers will own the system reguardless, casuals and the dreaded non-gamers can't really hurt the wii even if they only buy 3 games then put the thing in the closet never to be seen again. I know ALOT of casual gamers that don't play with their PS2s. They buy bad games then shelf the thing. The same may happen with the wii but I don't really see it hurting thier bussiness model, just as it didn't hurt the PS2.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Woo-Fu said:
What the hell are you talking about?