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[HK-47]

I would say this pretty much nails it, a shooter without MP or any RPG elements ala Bioshock is not going to sell today. Hideki Kamiya has much more of a presence and fanbase than Shinji Mikami also. people know that Kamiya knows how to make an action game. Vanquish is sort of uncharted territory for Mikami, he hasn't made a game too similar. I think all the hub bub about vanquish's length has also hurt it, im sort of holding off because of it.

Bioshock has no RPG elements. It does have customization and a strong atmosphere though.

Also maybe you heard of two actions games called Godhand and Resident Evil 4?

 

[Yurt]

I would say this pretty much nails it, a shooter without MP or any RPG elements ala Bioshock is not going to sell today. Hideki Kamiya has much more of a presence and fanbase than Shinji Mikami also. people know that Kamiya knows how to make an action game. Vanquish is sort of uncharted territory for Mikami, he hasn't made a game too similar. I think all the hub bub about vanquish's length has also hurt it, im sort of holding off because of it.

I doubt the average consumer thinks like this or even knows this stuff. The game isn't selling as much because of bad marketing. That's pretty much it.

And no it's not uncharted territory for Mikami.

 

[Corto]

Both deserve better sales. I did my part and bought both of them. Platinum Games handicap is Sega, they deserve better marketing than Sega can give them at the moment. Maybe Sega has other perks to balance it, like creative freedom with an hands-off approach to the game creation process, but I believe that both games with better marketing efforts should sell better than they did.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I remember early on people saying Bayonetta didn't sell well. Lets revisit this next year to really know. I do think Vanquish's release date (crowded fall) and marketing didn't seem as strong.

That's more due to people expecting Bayonetta to sell badly, there was a thread last month where someone claimed it didn't sell well even though it had sold more than 1.5 mill by that point.

shooter is just not Japanese forte, leave it up to the Western devs.

which is just fine with me, so they can go back to making action games

This has nothing to do with quality as Vanquish is a superb game.

No, just no, Bayonetta did not dethrone ZOE2. I don't really understand the lack of content argument. Vanquish has ton of hours of actual gameplay. It's like an arcade shoot'em up. Trying to beat the high score should be the point.

Bayonetta had both highscore replayability as well as shitloads of unlockables.

Even after playing through Bayonetta on all the difficulties and loving it (how can you not love a Kamiya game?), I still think the reason why so many people looooooove Bayonetta and crown it the game of forever or what not is because it's a top-level Japanese action game dumbed down for a casual audience like how CoD is for FPS. Imo DMC/NG are much deeper and better action games but they have far tougher learning curves and require fighting game like dedication and skill and most people just don't want to put the effort in and write them off.

Accesibility and depth are not mutually exclusive.

Japan just needs to do Japan. Nawmsayin?

Get sent.

Platinum needs to make games that are more mainstream. Bayonetta was too wierd and vanquish looked like a ripoff of a bunch of american games. The reason Resident Evil, DMC, and all these other japenese games took off is because they had a great balance of gameplay, action, story, memorable charecters, etc.

lolwat?

 

[Ezalc]

The song is #22. "2008 Tokyo Game Show Promotion" on Disk 5 of the original soundtrack.

Thank you very very much kind sir.

 

[Urban Scholar]

I think I've seen/heard the Bayonetta TV ad so much it got to the point where I knew the short lyrical quip verbatim.

With that said, the ad campaign of Bayonetta has been stronger than Vanquish. Vanquish unfortunately really had no PR work from what I've seen at work, well if you count one gamestop TV ad.

 

[Lostconfused]

Man there are a lot of people posting some horribly wrong statements about Vanquish in this thread.

 

[Canova]

lesson learned, Japanese devs should forget about making shooters. They should stick doing at what they do best, action games

 

[Sohter.Nura]

I think word of mouth is probably a big factor.

I read a couple reviews from Vanquish and shied away from the game. It seems awesome but short, and for me Bayonetta was excellent and long.

I'll wait until it hits the bargain bins.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Man there are a lot of people posting some horribly wrong statements about Vanquish in this thread.

Now wait a minute, that's simply not tr.....

lesson learned, Japanese devs should forget about making shooters. They should stick doing at what they do best, action games

Mmmm, never mind. I take that back -_-

 

[Curufinwe]

boobs sell who knew?

If that was true, Bayonetta would have outsold DMC 4.

 

[Shig]

Vanquish really wasn't a western looking game at all. The main character looks like a mecha outside of the cinematics. And he fights mechas.

What's more, the suit isn't even a good mecha design. Besides being way too overdesigned in general... A visor over the dude's mouth? A little waggling tailpiece?

The green highlights really clash with the blue mouthvisor, too.

You know what would have been amazing? If they just pasted Vanessa D. Schneider into this game as the main character.

 

[Jex]

If that was true, Bayonetta would have outsold DMC 4.

Comparing a new IP with an established franchise doesn't make any sense.

 

[sixteen-bit]

If that was true, Bayonetta would have outsold DMC 4.

Trish and Lady brah

 

[WrenchNinja]

Vanquish would definitely have sold more if the main character was female, and they kept the transforming mecha dog companion. Too bad Mikami decided to dumb it up into a generic American dude in power armor instead. He could have made PN03 + Shadow Dancer instead. His loss.

Damn, there was a dog companion? He really was going to turn it into Casshern. Except with a girl.

 

[Yurt]

lesson learned, Japanese devs should forget about making shooters. They should stick doing at what they do best, action games

Are you sure about that buddy? ..Japanese people sticking to what they do best ? because I see that you have a Demon's souls avatar over there..hmm

Man there are a lot of people posting some horribly wrong statements about Vanquish in this thread.

Tell me about it. it's heart breaking really.

People keep saying the game is short, Yes the main campaign on NORMAL is not meaty if you're good with shooters.. however, everyone seems to forget about the Challenge mode..which is NOT your standard tacked on challenge mode of killing waves after waves of mindless enemies. It's probably my favorite part of the game and I haven't even completed it yet.

 

[LiK]

What's more, the suit isn't even a good mecha design. Besides being way too overdesigned in general... A visor over the dude's mouth? A little waggling tailpiece?

The green highlights really clash with the blue mouthvisor, too.

You know what would have been amazing? If they just pasted Vanessa D. Schneider into this game as the main character.

I like the suit design. Whatevs.

 

[Urban Scholar]

I like the suit design. Whatevs.

Agreed sir, its design is impressive.

 

[Shig]

Agreed sir, its design is impressive.

It's impressive in its sheer complexity, I suppose.

The most memorable and iconic designs are generally the ones that keep it simple, though.

(To be fair, Bayonetta's not much better in this regard; kind of a mess of ribbons and chains everywhere, whipping around a half-dozen over-intricate glyphs and hair-sleeves as she moves...)

 

[LiK]

It's impressive in its sheer complexity, I suppose.

The most memorable and iconic designs are generally the ones that keep it simple, though.

Its technically a prototype in the story so it makes sense that its not a refined design.

 

[NonexistentK]

Wait a second,


What is the context of this discussion?


Bayonetta LTD is higher than Vanquish? Well it's been out for an extra 9 months?

Bayonetta sold better than Vanquish in the same time period? How do we know, didn't Vanquish come out Oct. 22 less than a month ago?


Where are the numbers? Is it a drastic difference? Are we jumping to conclusions?

this

 

[BobsRevenge]

I doubt the average consumer thinks like this or even knows this stuff. The game isn't selling as much because of bad marketing. That's pretty much it.

And no it's not uncharted territory for Mikami.

If the game had better marketing people also probably wouldn't have been so bummered about the length. People tend to overlook things if its marketed well.

 

[teruterubozu]

I don't even know what the lead character in Vanquish looks like. How is this a discussion?

 

[badcrumble]

Now, I'm not one to claim that a game like this needs multiplayer to be good. And I think it'd be shitty to say that that's what brought Vanquish sales down.

But you've got to admit, even without ARS mode, an online multiplayer version of Vanquish would be fucking AWESOME. It was very rewarding to see Uncharted 2's heavily vertical notion of a TPS put into multiplayer and I think Vanquish would be just the same with its boost mechanic and its limited melee. I mean, think about how Gears online multi stopped being about cover and became totally about roll-dodging and shotguns - now imagine that in Vanquish, a game that's actually BUILT to be that way. <3

 

[jj984jj]

Not really. Bayonetta shipped 1 million before it came out in NA/EU and there's been no record that it sold anywhere near that, so retailers ordering less copies of Platinum's next HD game as a result is not that strange.

 

[jj984jj]

dp

 

[Zeouterlimits]

As someone who bought Bayonetta Day 1 and won't be buying Vanquish, unless I saw it in store for under €20 these are my opinions:
-One had a great demo, the other had a boring one
-One had charm/ridiculous laugh out loud humour, the other didn't reach that level (based on the demo & reviews)
-One had an interesting visual style, the other had an ugly suit and not particularly interesting enemies

 

[Curufinwe]

Comparing a new IP with an established franchise doesn't make any sense.

Saying that boobs are the reason Bayonetta outsold Vanquish makes even less.

 

[LiK]

As someone who bought Bayonetta Day 1 and won't be buying Vanquish, unless I saw it in store for under €20 these are my opinions:
-One had a great demo, the other had a boring one
-One had charm/ridiculous laugh out loud humour, the other didn't reach that level (based on the demo & reviews)
-One had an interesting visual style, the other had an ugly suit and not particularly interesting enemies

Play the full Vanquish game. You'll change your mind.

 

[Retro_]

I think it's a matter of competition. Bayonetta entered into a genre that isn't widely exploited, in a month without much competition. Vanquish is an entry into a pretty heavily serviced genre together in a few months jam packed with shooters of all sorts (Halo, Medal of Honor, Call of Duty, even Quantum Theory). Without significant exposure, nobody paid attention.

It's a real shame. Vanquish makes every other shooter on the market seem clunky.

I thought Q1 was cluttered too. For games in general and in the action genre

Bayo came out around Mass Effect 2 and on the same day as Darksiders.

and only a few months before Dante's Inferno and God of War 3


I think the press attention made all the difference

 

[Canova]

Are you sure about that buddy? ..Japanese people sticking to what they do best ? because I see that you have a Demon's souls avatar over there..hmm



Tell me about it. it's heart breaking really.

People keep saying the game is short, Yes the main campaign on NORMAL is not meaty if you're good with shooters.. however, everyone seems to forget about the Challenge mode..which is NOT your standard tacked on challenge mode of killing waves after waves of mindless enemies. It's probably my favorite part of the game and I haven't even completed it yet.

yeah so what? Demon's Souls is an Action-RPG, Japanese devs know action

Look what I meant is that Vanquish is a great game. But to the 'bro-gamers', the HALO, CoD crowds, Vanquish is just another mech/gundamu shooter. It would take a great marketing effort and sometime to shake off that perception

 

[TheGoldenGunman]

It's not strange as there are a number of factors that contributed to Bayonetta outselling Vanquish.

- Release Window. Bayonetta was a January release in the west, Vanquish was in a busy period, gaming wise. There's a reason why most publishers avoid being within 3 months of Black-Ops!
- Bayonetta had broader appeal in PG's home territory, Vanquish did not.
- Bayonetta had a bigger marketing campaign.
- Kameya's involvement as director of Bayonetta resulted in more press coverage than Vanquish, even though Mikami was attached to Vanquish.
- Mikami was busy trying to find investment for Tango Gameworks during the last 6 months of Vanquish's development. Thus less time for press meet and greets.
- Vanquish has a very generic look to it.


And I could go on and on.

But the *real* shame is that neither game will do 1/10th of what Black-Ops will do. The COD series is a good one and provides fun for millions of people around the world, and for that, it deserves praise. However, it is also the cash-cow of a company that are only too happy to milk their franchises into the ground and extort their own customers for as much as they can possibly get.

Both Bayonetta and Vanquish have reall innovation and compelling gameplay. For me, Vanquish is a serious contender for game of this console cycle. Stunning graphics, insanely fun gameplay and something that just feels so good to play. It's a crying shame that so few people have and will play it because I think that an awful lot of people would have an awful lot of fun playing it. The same applies to Bayonetta too.

 

[FoneBone]

If I were going by the boxart alone, I'd say it might as well have been titled Futuristic Shooter #8976.

 

[BobsRevenge]

I would've bought it at less than $60. I'm too used to PC game prices now, and $60 just feels wasteful. The demo was absolutely fantastic. I'm going to pick it up around Christmas time though, for sure, if I can find it around $40.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Play the full Vanquish game. You'll change your mind.

I just don't believe that's the case LiK. The money is better spent elsewhere (i.e. my new 4200 point card will get me more enjoyment than I think Vanquish will).
Considering the love on GAF, I'll probably end up getting it down the line, but no interest. Demo completely bored me, saw little (nothing comes to mind) interesting there.

 

[BobsRevenge]

I just don't believe that's the case LiK.
Considering the love on GAF, I'll probably end up getting it down the line, but no interest. Demo completely bored me, saw little (nothing comes to mind) interesting there.

Then you played it wrong. Flat out, Vanquish's gameplay is enormously entertaining and if you aren't having fun you're doing something wrong, or something is wrong with you.

 

[Shig]

Saying that boobs are the reason Bayonetta outsold Vanquish makes even less.

Eh, I think it has a little merit. The segment of gamers that Vanquish targets have seen variations on the 'grizzled space marine' MC a billion times and, if they don't outright begrudge it, they're at least past the point of getting excited by it.

'Dominatrix librarian who summons demons from her hair' is a bit more intriguing.

 

[LiK]

I just don't believe that's the case LiK. The money is better spent elsewhere (i.e. my new 4200 point card will get me more enjoyment than I think Vanquish will).
Considering the love on GAF, I'll probably end up getting it down the line, but no interest. Demo completely bored me, saw little (nothing comes to mind) interesting there.

Understandable, but give it a chance if you find it cheap.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Then you played it wrong. Flat out, Vanquish's gameplay is enormously entertaining and if you aren't having fun you're doing something wrong, or something is wrong with you.

That's ... ow. Offended a tad.
Is it not on the onus of the developer to ensure I play it correctly? I played through it, beat the boss.
Enjoyed so many games this year, I infact reject your bullshit comment. And obviously I'm not alone.

Understandable, but give it a chance if you find it cheap.

Will do. <3 Lik.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

I say this because Vanquish was designed SPECIFICALLY with western audiences in mind. It was a third-person shooter. Cover based. Great boss battles. Tried to have a more 'American' lead character. While Bayonetta was a character action game with a crazy nuts female character, a thick coating of 'Japanese' flavor, and definitely more strange overall. I'm not sure which game Platinum was expecting to sell more, but I think it's interesting Bayonetta has outperformed Vanquish. Both games were marketed rather poorly by Sega, so I'm not sure that's the difference. Both games also reviewed high, with 8's and 9's across the board.

So what made the difference?

The protagonist in Vanquish doesn't quite have the ass that Bayonetta does, nor does he do a job on lollipops quite like she does...

...seriously.

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

I hope Vanquish sells more because in my mind it was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Bayonetta. I hated that game.

 

[sixteen-bit]

If I were going by the boxart alone, I'd say it might as well have been titled Futuristic Shooter #8976.

yeah, the boxart was rather unfortunate

but bayonetta is in the same camp

 

[Yurt]

yeah so what? Demon's Souls is an Action-RPG, Japanese devs know action

Yes and Japanese devs are famous for their critically acclaimed action-RPG titles. :lol

Look what I meant is that Vanquish is a great game. But to the 'bro-gamers', the HALO, CoD crowds, Vanquish is just another mech/gundamu shooter. It would take a great marketing effort and sometime to shake off that perception

agreed.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Will do. <3 Lik.

How you should start out playing Vanquish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aswf37_pQLE

 

[BobsRevenge]

That's ... ow. Offended a tad.
Is it not on the onus of the developer to ensure I play it correctly? I played through it, beat the boss.
Enjoyed so many games this year, I infact reject your bullshit comment. And obviously I'm not alone.

You should've played the tutorial first. Its the least boring shooter to come out in a while. The game mechanics are designed for you to be zooming all over the goddamn place fucking shit up in slow motion using an array of badass combinations of awesome shit you can pull off.

 

[TheKaeptain]

-One had a great demo, the other had a boring one

0_0

You didn't play the Challenge demo, did you?

 

[Wolves Evolve]

I own both games, but Vanquish fails in every way to look or feel or play remotely Western.

 

[60_gig_PS3]

Vanquish has a generic name and generic main character that's at least half the problem right there.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

0_0

You didn't play the Challenge demo, did you?

No. Why would I have? I played the first demo, the one for the main campaign and wasn't impressed.

Bobs - Your passion is admirable. But I just didn't see it. Whenever I inevitably pick up Vanquish, I'll post my thoughts.
FYI, you haven't been so much selling as trying to ram it down my throat, not appreciating I might be different to you.

 

[BobsRevenge]

FYI, you haven't been so much selling as trying to ram it down my throat, not appreciating I might be different to you.