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Is Knuckles the Echidna's feminist statement accurate?

P

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
Glass Rebel said:
Against my better judgement I will try to unpack this...

I think this is a case where writing and humour got in the way of conveying a deeper message. Not implying that women can't have misconceptions about feminism but there seems to be a genuine attempt here, hampered by the fact that it had to be written within the framework of Sonic Boom.



The first half of Knuckles' statement about the "undermining of the concept of gender equality" has some merit. Explicitly calling attention to breaking of gender roles in media is an acknowledgment of said (forced) gender roles and to a certain degree removes women's autonomy by implying that most simply adhere to them. Certainly, one can also make the argument that any pointing out of women "breaking the mold" is a celebration of women's autonomy within a patriarchal system and their ability to break free from it. I think both stances are valid.
The second part of his statement, however, goes too far in the sense that it tries to explain what I did above but has to do so in a succinct way. Dialogue in TV shows has to be snappy, otherwise you end up with stuff like True Detective Season 2. This goes especially for shows directed at kids. The way Knuckles' statement is phrased, it sounds as if he is denying the existence of gender inequality whereas it seems obvious that Knuckles is bemoaning the "status quo". In other words, Knuckles isn't talking about how things are but how they should be. He is for gender equality.
The message is further muddied by what Amy says before:



As I explained earlier, Knuckles is advocating for the autonomy of women. However, Amy, in evoking the metaphor of the "glass ceiling", an image that was coined by and gained traction within feminist circles, is talking about external limiting factors. Essentially, Knuckles and Amy are talking about two very different things here, which is where the problematic nature of Knuckles' statement stems from.

On the matter of mansplaining: It is true that Sticks the Badger could have delivered this speech. She is visible here on the left and clearly part of the conversation:



And this is another instance where the framework of Sonic Boom got into the way of the message the writer tried to convey. In this scene, the humour arising from the fact that it is Knuckles delivering this little speech, is intended to be the vehicle for the writer's message. What the writer is trying to say is that even a self-professed "meathead" like Knuckles can be a feminist but by doing so she inevitably puts him into a non-feminist position i.e. making him "mansplain" gender equality to Amy. Through this constellation of characters and the choice of humour as vehicle, the writer has essentially written herself into a corner. It certainly does not help that his explanation is flawed but I am willing to give the writer the benefit of the doubt here.

One has to also consider the nature of the show here. Sonic Boom does frequently break the fourth wall and feature self-deprecating humour. I am an advocate of the death of the author but Knuckles' comment can be seen as a meta-commentary on the cliched "You Go, Girl!" trope, essentially making him the writer's mouthpiece.

So to conclude, this was not a very effective way to introduce feminism and gender equality to children but I think the writer had the best intentions. I think it's important that TV shows for children try to tackle heavier subject matters like this but they also have to be very careful about it. The mere intention of conveying a positive message does not absolve one from potential missteps.

Now excuse me while I go to bed and think about why I am analyzing Sonic fucking Boom in the year of our lord 2017.
Click to expand...
Please analyze more Sonic Boom in the near future.
 
H

HollowCentral

Member
I've never really thought about it like that. I guess it makes sense, I mean, part of the backlash I hear against feminists is that they're too vocal, which isn't a bad thing to me, but I can understand the argument that Knuckles here is pushing.
 
B

Boney

Banned
I find the idea of breaking the glass ceiling as a catch all gender equality a much bigger problem to be honest.
 
M

MisterGrey3000

Member
Order said:
The scene is hilarious, but what Knuckles is saying is actually dumb as hell.

It's some "don't mention sexism and everything will be fine" bullshit people use to pretend like there's no problem.

Sonic Mania out August 15th
Click to expand...

Yeah, basically.
The writer was essentially thinking on an interpersonal micro level rather than a macro one.
 
P

PK Gaming

Member
The joke is amusing. Pretty basic and condescending, but Knuckles spends most of the show being unfathomably stupid, so the fact that he could actually string together a reasoned argument made it funny.

AlexFlame116 said:
What did they do to Shadow's voice?!
Click to expand...

All of the VA's got replaced
 
B

Byakuya769

Member
WRITERS’ ROOM

Fandom has decided that Knuckles is black. What should we do in reaction to this?

“LET’S MAKE HIM STUPID AS FUCK.”

hahahhahhahahhahahha. woooooooooooooooooooo. hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahhaahhahaha PERFECT!
 
S

sonto340

Member
excelsiorlef said:
Not really.

It being a man just makes it more obnoxious though.



So it's a bad one
Click to expand...
The joke is that guy is shitty. You’re not supposed to disagree with Amy, you’re supposed to disagree with him because he’s obviously wrong despite thinking of himself as an expert on the subject.
It’s a joke.
 
G

Gin-Shiio

Member
Byakuya769 said:
WRITERS’ ROOM

Fandom has decided that Knuckles is black. What should we do in reaction to this?

“LET’S MAKE HIM STUPID AS FUCK.”

hahahhahhahahhahahha. woooooooooooooooooooo. hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahhaahhahaha PERFECT!
Click to expand...

Talk about jumping the gun
 
rackham

rackham

Banned
Byakuya769 said:
WRITERS’ ROOM

Fandom has decided that Knuckles is black. What should we do in reaction to this?

“LET’S MAKE HIM STUPID AS FUCK.”

hahahhahhahahhahahha. woooooooooooooooooooo. hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahhaahhahaha PERFECT!
Click to expand...

Martian Manhunter is black too.

Any other non black black characters?
 
S

Sianos

Member
I think its a valid concern to be made on a meta level that does not adequately consider the object level of "how the world actually is".

The problem is that traditional gender roles are explicitly, aggressively, and most importantly intentionally enforced. That intention means that if you do not fight against it, the status quo will persist because people are actively fighting for it.

The key is to make sure that it is understood that these moments of triumph are not exceptions, but instead more data points to show that the status quo being forced upon us is completely invalid, and that gender expression is to be determined by individuals.

I do find that on an individual level it is an appreciable message that you shouldn't feel pressured to at all times represent the entirety of your gender or sexual orientation, lest every person of that gender or orientation all be judged by your individual actions. That's pretty damn stressful.
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
to me it sounds bad, like a guy telling a girl to stop talking about gender inequality. and yes, if it was a woman character then I would still disagree. but it wouldn't feel the same way.

but idk, how do women feel about this?
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
sonto340 said:
The joke is that guy is shitty. You’re not supposed to disagree with Amy, you’re supposed to disagree with him because he’s obviously wrong despite thinking of himself as an expert on the subject.
It’s a joke.
Click to expand...

But it's a play on strawfeminists.

That's literally how feminists are portrayed in some media.

That's why the joke kinda sucks.

Why is Amy the girl always the but if feminist jokes from men. It's weird.
 
S

SomewhatGroovy

Banned
So the question is if you break a glass ceiling, can you logically conclude doing so is a one time event or is it a new status quo?

Naturally, the answer is it can be both so reducing it to an absolute renders the argument false.
 
G

gaiages

Banned
Man reading this thread is pretty great, I never expected such a discussion around Sonic Boon of all things, lol
 
B

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Order said:
The scene is hilarious, but what Knuckles is saying is actually dumb as hell.

It's some "don't mention sexism and everything will be fine" bullshit people use to pretend like there's no problem.

Sonic Mania out August 15th
Click to expand...

That is one interpretation, the other being that celebrating the gender of an accomplishment actually marginalizes the accomplishment itself and puts emphasis on the inequality, thus perpetuating the issue.(It's not about the goal being scored, but a GIRL scored the goal???!!! No wayyyy!!!!???)

It's about the pretense not the action. Should it matter? What is dumb about dropping the pretense exactly?
 
P

PK Gaming

Member
Byakuya769 said:
WRITERS’ ROOM

Fandom has decided that Knuckles is black. What should we do in reaction to this?

“LET’S MAKE HIM STUPID AS FUCK.”

hahahhahhahahhahahha. woooooooooooooooooooo. hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahhaahhahaha PERFECT!
Click to expand...

Sonic Adventure Knuckles is undeniably black, but you can't say that about all about his Sonic Boom incarnation.

I mean just... listen to him.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Brandon F said:
That is one interpretation, the other being that celebrating the gender of an accomplishment actually marginalizes the accomplishment itself and puts emphasis on the inequality, thus perpetuating the issue.(It's not about the goal being scored, but a GIRL scored the goal???!!! No wayyyy!!!!???)

It's about the pretense not the action. Should it matter? What is dumb about dropping the pretense exactly?
Click to expand...

That's total nonsense.

It matters who scores when were talking about breaking barriers.

By this logic acknowledging that Clinton was the first woman nominee for President from the big two parties is just reinforcing inequality because she's just another human nominee or something.

It's absurd.
 
Amibguous Cad

Amibguous Cad

Member
I thought the joke was that Knuckles actually still is a stupid meathead for doing the whole mansplaining thing, even if it's superficially insightful.
 
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