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Is Sonic a joke to you?
- Thread starter Jonneh3003
- Start date
Sonic as a franchise is fine, and still has the potential for great games. Colors and Generations weren't that long ago, and they're excellent, even better than the Genesis games if you remove nostalgia from the equation.
The problem is Sega mismanages the hell out of the series, and they're terrible at finding and fixing what doesn't work early on. Because of this, they wind up with huge issues late in development that can't be fixed without huge delays, and they never get those delays, so we wind up with mediocre games with bad physics (Sonic 4), weird experiments that had potential but were ultimately not very fun (Lost World), and complete and utter garbage (Boom).
If Sega were handling Sonic the way Nintendo handles Mario, it would be an excellent series. But they seem to just like throwing everything out there to see what sticks. And then when something finally does stick (Colors/Generations), they move on and keep throwing new stuff out there for some reason.
The problem is Sega mismanages the hell out of the series, and they're terrible at finding and fixing what doesn't work early on. Because of this, they wind up with huge issues late in development that can't be fixed without huge delays, and they never get those delays, so we wind up with mediocre games with bad physics (Sonic 4), weird experiments that had potential but were ultimately not very fun (Lost World), and complete and utter garbage (Boom).
If Sega were handling Sonic the way Nintendo handles Mario, it would be an excellent series. But they seem to just like throwing everything out there to see what sticks. And then when something finally does stick (Colors/Generations), they move on and keep throwing new stuff out there for some reason.
protomouse
Member
We went from saying "wow, this new Sonic game is the shit" to "wow, this new Sonic game is shit". It's sad rather than funny. As a fan of Sonic since childhood, I look depressingly at Sonic Boom and say to myself: "why would you ship this?". If Sega had someone like Miyamoto or Tezuka governing the Sonic franchise, along with someone at the top who understands that it takes consistent quality to sustain a franchise, we would still be having the Mario vs. Sonic argument today.
You do realize that is the VA sonic had since Free Riders / Colors and the Eggman VA since the original died? They are not the Boom VA they are the VA that also did them in Boom since they are the VA.
Possumowner
Member
Nope Sonic is not a joke to me,hes an iconic character of videogames...whether the games were good or not he helped push gaming towards mainstream.
I'll always love him,just not his games so much.
I'll always love him,just not his games so much.
Eh I stopped paying attention to the franchise around the time Colors came out, and while I played it I couldn't stand the dialogues so that might have something to do with it.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I like you. Most underrated game in the series.
Hentailover
Member
It is a dank meme now.
Multiple reasons:
- General concept of a character. "hip and with it" characters always end up mocked in the hind sight
- dumb dumb dumb "2 kewl 4 you" storylines
- Fanabase, without which, nobody would care about above "story line" point if there weren't people geniunely glorifying shit like Super Saiyan Sonic
- The complete disregard for quality and image of the "icon" by it's own creators, Sega, who used it as means to get quick buck over and over, allowing games that were borderline unshippable, let alone at all playable, to be released on the market with fanfare. Say what you want about nintendo ( and there's a lot to say) but at least there's basic QA that isn't completely neglected for Mario games, to make sure brand isn't dragged through the mud from an embarrassing display... what I am trying to say... most mascots didn't have 06 happen to them. Sonic had it happen to it twice...
Multiple reasons:
- General concept of a character. "hip and with it" characters always end up mocked in the hind sight
- dumb dumb dumb "2 kewl 4 you" storylines
- Fanabase, without which, nobody would care about above "story line" point if there weren't people geniunely glorifying shit like Super Saiyan Sonic
- The complete disregard for quality and image of the "icon" by it's own creators, Sega, who used it as means to get quick buck over and over, allowing games that were borderline unshippable, let alone at all playable, to be released on the market with fanfare. Say what you want about nintendo ( and there's a lot to say) but at least there's basic QA that isn't completely neglected for Mario games, to make sure brand isn't dragged through the mud from an embarrassing display... what I am trying to say... most mascots didn't have 06 happen to them. Sonic had it happen to it twice...
Largely yes.
The games were ok when being 2d platformers, but it has since gone majorly downhill.
Sega isn't giving Sonic the amount of production quality the series needs, and they should just retire Sonic if they're not going to do that.
Id love to see a Sonic game with the amount of care Nintendo gives their 3D platformers like Mario Galaxy, but a man can dream, at best.
The games were ok when being 2d platformers, but it has since gone majorly downhill.
Sega isn't giving Sonic the amount of production quality the series needs, and they should just retire Sonic if they're not going to do that.
Id love to see a Sonic game with the amount of care Nintendo gives their 3D platformers like Mario Galaxy, but a man can dream, at best.
Unfortunately it's probably still the case that a shit Sonic game will likely make Sega more money then localising any of thier other properties.
Good games don't automatically sell better then bad. If anyone has a lot of experience of good games not selling it's Sega sadly.
I guess if you shout it enough you hope people will think it's true? Generations got good reviews, is actually fun to play and is well regarded by most. If SEGA just left that team to do the games then there wouldn't be as much fluctuation in quality.
It's more than just the style of the game, though. I look at Colors and Lost World and see them trying to staple the old art style onto the new ever-changing (and not for the better) gameplay, as though it were the only thing wrong with Sonic. And it's not.
Despite the flowery language in the instruction manual, it's all quite clear: man wants power, destroys/enslaves natural environment in pursuit of it, a creature of nature acts as a champion to defend it (albeit rather nonchalantly).
There's a very clear difference between the simple stories being told in the Genesis/Mega Drive games and what we have now. Sealed ancient powers, counterfeit Sonics created through android engineering who are evil because of faulty memories, "Gaia Manuscripts"... Sonic stories were never high art, but the games from Adventure on dialled the plot to a level that would make the most terrible shonen anime blush, with all of the ludicrous elements that entails.
Clearly, you can understand the distinction.
Feel free to keep cherry-picking. I don't mind. It's hard to argue the point when Lost World and Colors are exceptions instead of rules in this regard. And again, as I said, you can't look at just the one element in isolation, but it clearly happened in tandem with a plethora of other things that went horribly wrong.
I've very much stated the same thing in the very post you quoted.
Generations is an awesome game, imo. But something that bothers me regards to Sonic, is that it is now "cool to hate" the character, or the games.
What if I made a thread "Is Mario a joke for you?". I would be flamed and harrased. If I wrote that Mari Galaxy was shit, and you know it, I might even be banned.
The only moder Sonic game I played was Generations, which was average platform Erik at best. I would rate it 7/10 at best, because even though the speed in the levels is lot of fun to look at, gameplay itself usually felt quite clunky or alternatively the game played itself, there never felt to be good alternative between these two modes.
So if the seemingly best game in the series for long time was merely alright, I don't even want to dread about thinking how the bad games in the series must play. So I'm not very surprised if people consider this brand to be a joke.
So if the seemingly best game in the series for long time was merely alright, I don't even want to dread about thinking how the bad games in the series must play. So I'm not very surprised if people consider this brand to be a joke.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
Having Genesis as my first console growing up, I did consider myself a Sonic fan. It lasted through the Dreamcast era. I kind of lost interest in the franchise after my lukewarm feelings on Heroes and Battle for the Gamecube and Gameboy Advance, respectively.
Past that time, the adoption of broadband internet seemed far more widespread and games media was able to expand to the web with videos, and those videos allowed a lot better unfiltered access to videogame footage, so it felt like reviews were able to better demonstrate their points, and Sonic games in particular just did not seem to stand up to any level of quality that other games were achieving. Sonic '06 reviews sort of bombed what little interest or faith I had remaining for the franchise, though since then I do admit that I've kept tabs on upcoming Sonic games and constantly hoped that one day Sega might start producing Sonic games that kept the spirit of the classic Sonic franchise alive while mirroring the best production values of other contemporary games.
I was only ever convinced by my watch that Generations was actually worth picking up, and I'm glad I did. That game felt like a well-executed celebration of the best parts of the Sonic franchise that I personally enjoyed, with fantastic production values to boot. Sega's failure to maintain that standard reeled me right back to a point of near-zero faith, but I do admit that I still take interest in every Sonic announcement and kind of hope some team Sega hires to make a Sonic game will finally kind of pick up the torch where Generations left off.
EDIT: Also got the second Sonic & All-Stars Racing game (Transformed) and enjoyed it very much. Very little of it feels necessitated by the Sonic brand/license, but I don't mind that it has Sonic and a few other Sega franchises represented -- it's a damn fine kart racer that feels like a well-produced contemporary Diddy Kong Racing.
Past that time, the adoption of broadband internet seemed far more widespread and games media was able to expand to the web with videos, and those videos allowed a lot better unfiltered access to videogame footage, so it felt like reviews were able to better demonstrate their points, and Sonic games in particular just did not seem to stand up to any level of quality that other games were achieving. Sonic '06 reviews sort of bombed what little interest or faith I had remaining for the franchise, though since then I do admit that I've kept tabs on upcoming Sonic games and constantly hoped that one day Sega might start producing Sonic games that kept the spirit of the classic Sonic franchise alive while mirroring the best production values of other contemporary games.
I was only ever convinced by my watch that Generations was actually worth picking up, and I'm glad I did. That game felt like a well-executed celebration of the best parts of the Sonic franchise that I personally enjoyed, with fantastic production values to boot. Sega's failure to maintain that standard reeled me right back to a point of near-zero faith, but I do admit that I still take interest in every Sonic announcement and kind of hope some team Sega hires to make a Sonic game will finally kind of pick up the torch where Generations left off.
EDIT: Also got the second Sonic & All-Stars Racing game (Transformed) and enjoyed it very much. Very little of it feels necessitated by the Sonic brand/license, but I don't mind that it has Sonic and a few other Sega franchises represented -- it's a damn fine kart racer that feels like a well-produced contemporary Diddy Kong Racing.
JayBabay
Member
I dunno, I grew up with Sonic on Genesis and really enjoyed the first 3 games. Then, when the Dreamcast came out the graphics in Sonic Adventures were really awesome for the time. It wasn't a great game but it was a nice showpiece for its time. The earlier Genesis games will always have the nostalgic factor for me. I'm surprised some people saying they are bad, like when we were younger I'm sure these games were awesome to most of us and that is enough for me.
eXistor
Member
Sorry, but I'll never understand why Generations is held in such high regard. I bought it at launch because it looked like a return to form and I loved the concept, but in the end it's just not a well designed game to me. I was very disappointed with it; the 2d levels were a mess with mediocre controls and the 3d stuff was..well, 3d. Sonic in 3D was never really much for actual gameplay. It could have been a decent start to a new series, the potential was certainly there, but Sega being Sega, they dropped the idea after one game and let it die off even before it had a decent life and let it blossom into something truly worthwhile.
As it stands, Generations, to me, is the game they should have used to usher in a new beginning and they wasted it.
I still have Sonic figures and all the original games (though for some reason I never got around to S&K). Sonic as a character can definitely still be cool, that's not the issue here, it's badly designed games that ruined his reputation. I want Sonic games to be good again.
Sonic jumped the shark and into a shark pit with Sonic Adventure. I can't comment on the actual quality of the games since, but between gun-toting Shadow, catastrophic Sonic 06 and "the Sonic cycle" it's hard to take Sonic seriously. Definitely one of the most mishandled video game properties of all time.
Fox Mulder
Member
Sonic has shitty games and Sega hasn't shown they know what to do with the franchise now. Doesn't even deserve to be compared to Mario at all.
Ive even hated him since the redesign away from a pudgy hedgehog. He looks dumb now.
Ive even hated him since the redesign away from a pudgy hedgehog. He looks dumb now.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Sonic 1,2,3 and knuckles are great imo still hold up to this day. It's fun to play the games with an arcade stick. I enjoyed sonic adventure 1&2 on the dreamcast as well.. Everything after that been shit imo.
petran79
Banned
Rouge was nothing when compared to Vanilla the Rabbit
Isn't this the case for a lot of PlatinumStar games? And in some aspects, Metal Gear Solid
Already Torn
Banned
I don't like that music or any of the Genesis games. They're all mediocre.
Silent Chief
Member
He's still popular with kids. I still see him on par with Mario.
I legitimately don't understand how someone can like Adventure 1 and 2 and dislike Colors and Generations.
Colors basically took the Sonic levels from the Adventure games, made them far less janky and unpolished, added some new mechanics like boosting, and made them the entire game so you didn't have to force yourself through fishing and emerald hunting bullshit to get to the good stuff.
Generations took that same gameplay from Colors for half the game, and had Genesis-style Sonic for the other half of the game.
I feel like a lot of people just see games like Sonic '06 and Sonic Boom and generalize the entire series without even playing them.
Android18a
Member
I still take an interest in Sonic games when they're announced, but I will admit that is mostly due to the Megadrive games being key to my formative years as a kid/teenager.
I don't find Sonic a joke necessarily, but I do think it's sad to see the state of the franchise at the moment and I don't think I'll ever feel the way about a new Sonic game as I do for the original trilogy and a half.
If I had to pin down a few key mistakes, in my own humble opinion:
- Never choosing a visual identity for Sonic and sticking to it, at least for mainline games. Even on the 16-bit systems he looked visually different between Sonic 1/2 and Sonic 3/knuckles, Spinball, Blast etc. Then you had the Adventure style, the Boom style, the 06 style, all these different appearances that weaken the perception of the character as a design.
- The whole 32 bit era missing out on a true 3D or 2D Sonic title, making do with Sonic Jam and Sonic R. That's pretty sad, as great as Sonic Jam was. It's a shame that Sega's internal struggles put a stop to our dreams of an incredible 32 bit entry in the series to cement the franchise as a gaming staple going forward that we could rely on to deliver.
- Outsourcing the franchise. DiMPS, Big Red Button etc. It rarely ends well. The only Dimps Sonic that I feel captures how the games should play is the original Sonic Advance. SA2 completely lost what made the original Advance game work (aka that it felt like playing one of the MD entries in the series). And Sonic Boom on Wii needs no explanation. Sonic 4... I won't really talk too much about it, except again it just didn't feel like Sonic.
- Rushed games. Again, Sonic 06 and Boom stand out there.
If it was up to me I'd get the team that made the incredible mobile versions of Sonic CD and Sonic 2, hook them up with the resources they need, and get them to produce a new Sonic trilogy using that engine in the old-school style. That's a team that genuinely seems to understand the appeal of, and what worked in, the early games.
I don't find Sonic a joke necessarily, but I do think it's sad to see the state of the franchise at the moment and I don't think I'll ever feel the way about a new Sonic game as I do for the original trilogy and a half.
If I had to pin down a few key mistakes, in my own humble opinion:
- Never choosing a visual identity for Sonic and sticking to it, at least for mainline games. Even on the 16-bit systems he looked visually different between Sonic 1/2 and Sonic 3/knuckles, Spinball, Blast etc. Then you had the Adventure style, the Boom style, the 06 style, all these different appearances that weaken the perception of the character as a design.
- The whole 32 bit era missing out on a true 3D or 2D Sonic title, making do with Sonic Jam and Sonic R. That's pretty sad, as great as Sonic Jam was. It's a shame that Sega's internal struggles put a stop to our dreams of an incredible 32 bit entry in the series to cement the franchise as a gaming staple going forward that we could rely on to deliver.
- Outsourcing the franchise. DiMPS, Big Red Button etc. It rarely ends well. The only Dimps Sonic that I feel captures how the games should play is the original Sonic Advance. SA2 completely lost what made the original Advance game work (aka that it felt like playing one of the MD entries in the series). And Sonic Boom on Wii needs no explanation. Sonic 4... I won't really talk too much about it, except again it just didn't feel like Sonic.
- Rushed games. Again, Sonic 06 and Boom stand out there.
If it was up to me I'd get the team that made the incredible mobile versions of Sonic CD and Sonic 2, hook them up with the resources they need, and get them to produce a new Sonic trilogy using that engine in the old-school style. That's a team that genuinely seems to understand the appeal of, and what worked in, the early games.
Hero of Legend
Member
Honestly, Nintendo treats him better than Sega does.
Sonic's appearances in Smash. Super Mario Maker, and whatnot are arguably his best moments ever (like the jokes of "Super Mario Maker is the best Sonic game ever" sort of thing). And Nintendo took initiative in making that 3-game deal in the first place.
Nintendo sees Sonic as practically one of their own IPs. Why do you think they continue with the Olympic game crossovers and whatnot? I think Nintendo's the one keeping those alive, not Sega (see Nintendo publishing them worldwide since Sochi).
HELL, Nintendo got Arzest, formed by one of his creators Naoto Ohshima to work on Rio 3DS. THAT'S massive.
At this point, Nintendo buying Sonic would be the best thing to ever happen to him. Nintendo would treat him properly with outstanding games, I'm certain of that.
Sonic's appearances in Smash. Super Mario Maker, and whatnot are arguably his best moments ever (like the jokes of "Super Mario Maker is the best Sonic game ever" sort of thing). And Nintendo took initiative in making that 3-game deal in the first place.
Nintendo sees Sonic as practically one of their own IPs. Why do you think they continue with the Olympic game crossovers and whatnot? I think Nintendo's the one keeping those alive, not Sega (see Nintendo publishing them worldwide since Sochi).
HELL, Nintendo got Arzest, formed by one of his creators Naoto Ohshima to work on Rio 3DS. THAT'S massive.
At this point, Nintendo buying Sonic would be the best thing to ever happen to him. Nintendo would treat him properly with outstanding games, I'm certain of that.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Well, except... Sonic's sprite in Mario Maker kind of sucks (it has the wrong running animation, for starters)
Sega wanted to wriggle out of that 3 game deal almost immediately after their games started bombing. Sonic Lost World on the Wii U didn't even break 200k at launch. Nintendo may have published M&S Sochi, but it's important to note that Sochi was a mess. I don't blame Sega for distancing themselves from that game.
Also, Arzest sucks. As much as I think Naoto Oshima did good work during his tenure at Sonic Team, Arzest is just a reformation of Artoon under a different brand name, and Artoon turned out a lot of really shitty games and they haven't really been hitting a ton of home runs as Arzest, either.
I don't want Nintendo to buy Sonic and turn him in to another Star Fox... or worse, F-Zero.
Diprosalic
Banned
Sonic is about as cool or iconic as the mascots from off-brand cereal.
If Nintendo bought him, who knows if he will end up being like F-Zero or Metroid; IP's that are either ignored or mismanaged. They have Mario and will focus on ensuring those games are solid; why would they care on supporting Sonic when they have their own mascot.
SEGA and Nintendo get a lot of money from working together, leading to Sonic's titles having a lot of success on Nintendo platforms. But I don't see how Nintendo owning Sonic would benefit the series outside of giving Sonic Team more time to work on games, which SEGA has done starting with Sonic Colors (I note Sonic Team here, as they didn't do this for BigRedButton).
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I made this analogy a few years ago, but Sonic is like The Simpsons of videogames. Had an amazing run back in the 90s, a few so-so seasons after that when most of the original talent left, then a steep drop in quality. Introduced a ton of new characters and concepts no one liked. Flanderized the entire cast. Checked every box of story beats/game design possible, mostly just due to the inevitability of time and poor direction. Now you just check in every couple of years to laugh at the abomination it has become, choke on the next embarrassing crossover, and marvel that it's still popular enough to keep going.
And you pray for a merciful, tasteful end.
And you pray for a merciful, tasteful end.
Alcotholic
Banned
This guy has some good criticisms of the franchise and ways to fix them
https://youtu.be/I6ak3ebBep0
https://youtu.be/I6ak3ebBep0
LiveFromKyoto
Member
It's not about people trying to be 'cool,' it's about reality. Galaxy 1 & 2 (and 3D World) were truly amazing games, bursting with creativity level after level framed by amazing production values and a pitch-perfect orchestral score. Sonic had 3-5 good to great games on the Genesis 20+ years ago, and has been coasting on that ever since. Post-Genesis there appear to be two games that people will concede were good. The franchise has never been on the same level of consistent genre-redfining quality that Mario has.
Yuji Naka has been gone for a decade, and Sega doesn't put anywhere near the amount of time, resources or polish into Sonic games that Nintendo puts into Mario. Even comparing the two is an insult to the hard work and sacrifice Nintendo EAD put in game after game, to be quite frank.
ever? even counting the Genesis saga? Yeah sure...
Its not that Sonic's titles aren't as good as Mario's games, as I personally put Colors & Generations close to games like Sunshine honestly, its that if the platformer isn't Mario, it isn't good at all.
Not going to fully go into this, but the impression I got since maybe the summer of this year is that any platformer from the 90's is dated or was 'never good' despite past and current reception stating they are great titles. That really sticks with Sonic, as his games after the Genesis Era WERE good too great. Its just that the duds really stick out like a sore thumb and people like to continually point at them as if they represent the entire series.
But at this point....who cares? Sonic has been a 'joke' in the gaming industry to many gamers for a very long time and its hard to mention Sonic without being laughed at, more so if you are talking about post-2001 era titles. I am honestly surprised my Retrospective on the series went as well as it did and glad I posted it when I did; if I were to make it this June like I originally planed, I likely would have ended it earlier or leave it unfinished due to the backlash it would have gotten.
SEGA's handling of it certainly.
They keep trying to reinvent the wheel or come up with some new gimmick with each iteration and it just doesn't work.
Lost World had potential, and I actually think about 70% of it was pretty good. The rest of it wasn't fantastic, but they could have worked on it. Instead it was dropped for the mediocrity that is Sonic Boom.
Sonic Generations was fairly solid, was never really expanded on. Sonic Colours was good, and same issue.
Unleashed was tarnished by the fact they felt the necessity of adding shitty warehog levels in for no reason...
They keep trying to reinvent the wheel or come up with some new gimmick with each iteration and it just doesn't work.
Lost World had potential, and I actually think about 70% of it was pretty good. The rest of it wasn't fantastic, but they could have worked on it. Instead it was dropped for the mediocrity that is Sonic Boom.
Sonic Generations was fairly solid, was never really expanded on. Sonic Colours was good, and same issue.
Unleashed was tarnished by the fact they felt the necessity of adding shitty warehog levels in for no reason...
Hero of Legend
Member
Yeah I find his Mario Maker sprite odd, it's the only 16-bit sprite but animates pretty oddly. Lost World while didn't have an explosive opening, did have pretty good legs going by NPD leaks (being around 100k on Wii U by April '14 after like 14k in Oct '13 by estimating). So that's something.
Arzest never got the shot they needed to make a big game. Yoshi's New Island was too samey and the music was by someone not related to either company (Chamy Ishi has worked with Nintendo and Sega on numerous games though via T's Music).
And I extremely doubt Sonic would be put in the same basket as Star Fox and F-Zero when he has, despite his slip-ups, been a huge seller at times (especially Colors and the original M&S).
And a certain person would know that likely more than anyone at Nintendo; Tatsumi Kimishima himself.
*From 2002
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/6972/kimishima-welcomes-sonic
Nintendo would see Sonic as a top-tier mascot, hell I'd say he'd be among the same ranks as Mario himself at Nintendo. Nintendo wouldn't buy Sonic just to put him in a corner.
That line was just what I heard quite often when the game came out and Sonic was shown to be in it. Although I personally am not the biggest fan of the Genesis games as much as I like 3 & Knuckles.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
You cant expect to recover your reputation in an adequate capacity EVER once you are written in history as an entity that released Sonic 2006 to the world.
GeordieMark
Member
I choose to remember the glory days when Sonic was giving Mario a run for his money. He's still an iconic character to me, but I understand why people who weren't around for during the Mega Drive era see it different.
That line is just ignorance.
You can't really tell me a character in a fighting game and sprite in a maker is better than an entire saga that was an iconic phenomenom in videogames and it was and still is praised globally.
Diddy Kong
Banned
To me, Sonic is a dank meme.
Hero of Legend
Member
True. The line was likely just said in a half-serious manner. As much as I can sort of see why they'd think that (SMM is amazing from what I've seen and I've played a bit of it)..
The dankest.
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