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Isnt Curiosity Rover now a $2.5B failure ?

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Ether_Snake

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I'm confused why you think landing a 4 ton rover isn't the first step in discovering a way to land and come back, or why spending a few pennies more on making that 4-ton rover useful to science isn't a worthy expenditure.

Because the first step in "discovering" a way to land and come back (and that's not how it works, you don't discover it, you develop the tech and mission to do it), is to make a mission that is specifically about this and where the money is spent to succeed at that specific mission.

So start with the moon. Send something to it. Then go get it back.

We can't do it, nearly 50 years after putting people there.

Another goal should be to limit the need of human presence in space: 3D-printers, versatile assembly-devices, drones that can go outside and do repairs, etc., ideally all potentially controlled remotely by humans on Earth. It would significantly cut costs down and increase our capacities in general.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Nothing good can come from this. I've played Doom 3, I already know how this ends. Although, if they have to open a portal to hell, I'd prefer if they do that on Mars.
 

Yamauchi

Banned
Dear Sister Mary Jucunda:

Your letter was one of many which are reaching me every day, but it has touched me more deeply than all the others because it came so much from the depths of a searching mind and a compassionate heart. I will try to answer your question as best as I possibly can.

First, however, I would like to express my great admiration for you, and for all your many brave sisters, because you are dedicating your lives to the noblest cause of man: help for his fellowmen who are in need.

You asked in your letter how I could suggest the expenditures of billions of dollars for a voyage to Mars, at a time when many children on this Earth are starving to death. I know that you do not expect an answer such as “Oh, I did not know that there are children dying from hunger, but from now on I will desist from any kind of space research until mankind has solved that problem!” In fact, I have known of famined children long before I knew that a voyage to the planet Mars is technically feasible. However, I believe, like many of my friends, that travelling to the Moon and eventually to Mars and to other planets is a venture which we should undertake now, and I even believe that this project, in the long run, will contribute more to the solution of these grave problems we are facing here on Earth than many other potential projects of help which are debated and discussed year after year, and which are so extremely slow in yielding tangible results.

Before trying to describe in more detail how our space program is contributing to the solution of our Earthly problems, I would like to relate briefly a supposedly true story, which may help support the argument. About 400 years ago, there lived a count in a small town in Germany. He was one of the benign counts, and he gave a large part of his income to the poor in his town. This was much appreciated, because poverty was abundant during medieval times, and there were epidemics of the plague which ravaged the country frequently. One day, the count met a strange man. He had a workbench and little laboratory in his house, and he labored hard during the daytime so that he could afford a few hours every evening to work in his laboratory. He ground small lenses from pieces of glass; he mounted the lenses in tubes, and he used these gadgets to look at very small objects. The count was particularly fascinated by the tiny creatures that could be observed with the strong magnification, and which he had never seen before. He invited the man to move with his laboratory to the castle, to become a member of the count's household, and to devote henceforth all his time to the development and perfection of his optical gadgets as a special employee of the count.

The townspeople, however, became angry when they realized that the count was wasting his money, as they thought, on a stunt without purpose. “We are suffering from this plague,” they said, “while he is paying that man for a useless hobby!” But the count remained firm. “I give you as much as I can afford,” he said, “but I will also support this man and his work, because I know that someday something will come out of it!”

Indeed, something very good came out of this work, and also out of similar work done by others at other places: the microscope. It is well known that the microscope has contributed more than any other invention to the progress of medicine, and that the elimination of the plague and many other contagious diseases from most parts of the world is largely a result of studies which the microscope made possible.

The count, by retaining some of his spending money for research and discovery, contributed far more to the relief of human suffering than he could have contributed by giving all he could possibly spare to his plague-ridden community.

The situation which we are facing today is similar in many respects. The President of the United States is spending about 200 billion dollars in his yearly budget [more than $2 trillion in 2012]. This money goes to health, education, welfare, urban renewal, highways, transportation, foreign aid, defense, conservation, science, agriculture and many installations inside and outside the country. About 1.6 percent of this national budget was allocated to space exploration this year [less than .5 of one percent in 2012]. The space program includes Project Apollo, and many other smaller projects in space physics, space astronomy, space biology, planetary projects, Earth resources projects, and space engineering. To make this expenditure for the space program possible, the average American taxpayer with 10,000 dollars income per year is paying about 30 tax dollars for space. The rest of his income, 9,970 dollars, remains for his subsistence, his recreation, his savings, his other taxes, and all his other expenditures.

You will probably ask now: “Why don’t you take 5 or 3 or 1 dollar out of the 30 space dollars which the average American taxpayer is paying, and send these dollars to the hungry children?” To answer this question, I have to explain briefly how the economy of this country works. The situation is very similar in other countries. The government consists of a number of departments (Interior, Justice, Health, Education and Welfare, Transportation, Defense, and others) and the bureaus (National Science Foundation, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and others). All of them prepare their yearly budgets according to their assigned missions, and each of them must defend its budget against extremely severe screening by congressional committees, and against heavy pressure for economy from the Bureau of the Budget and the President. When the funds are finally appropriated by Congress, they can be spent only for the line items specified and approved in the budget.

The budget of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, naturally, can contain only items directly related to aeronautics and space. If this budget were not approved by Congress, the funds proposed for it would not be available for something else; they would simply not be levied from the taxpayer, unless one of the other budgets had obtained approval for a specific increase which would then absorb the funds not spent for space. You realize from this brief discourse that support for hungry children, or rather a support in addition to what the United States is already contributing to this very worthy cause in the form of foreign aid, can be obtained only if the appropriate department submits a budget line item for this purpose, and if this line item is then approved by Congress.

You may ask now whether I personally would be in favor of such a move by our government. My answer is an emphatic yes. Indeed, I would not mind at all if my annual taxes were increased by a number of dollars for the purpose of feeding hungry children, wherever they may live.

I know that all of my friends feel the same way. However, we could not bring such a program to life merely by desisting from making plans for voyages to Mars. On the contrary, I even believe that by working for the space program I can make some contribution to the relief and eventual solution of such grave problems as poverty and hunger on Earth. Basic to the hunger problem are two functions: the production of food and the distribution of food. Food production by agriculture, cattle ranching, ocean fishing and other large-scale operations is efficient in some parts of the world, but drastically deficient in many others. For example, large areas of land could be utilized far better if efficient methods of watershed control, fertilizer use, weather forecasting, fertility assessment, plantation programming, field selection, planting habits, timing of cultivation, crop survey and harvest planning were applied.

The best tool for the improvement of all these functions, undoubtedly, is the artificial Earth satellite. Circling the globe at a high altitude, it can screen wide areas of land within a short time; it can observe and measure a large variety of factors indicating the status and condition of crops, soil, droughts, rainfall, snow cover, etc., and it can radio this information to ground stations for appropriate use. It has been estimated that even a modest system of Earth satellites equipped with Earth resources, sensors, working within a program for worldwide agricultural improvements, will increase the yearly crops by an equivalent of many billions of dollars.

The distribution of the food to the needy is a completely different problem. The question is not so much one of shipping volume, it is one of international cooperation. The ruler of a small nation may feel very uneasy about the prospect of having large quantities of food shipped into his country by a large nation, simply because he fears that along with the food there may also be an import of influence and foreign power. Efficient relief from hunger, I am afraid, will not come before the boundaries between nations have become less divisive than they are today. I do not believe that space flight will accomplish this miracle over night. However, the space program is certainly among the most promising and powerful agents working in this direction.

Let me only remind you of the recent near-tragedy of Apollo 13. When the time of the crucial reentry of the astronauts approached, the Soviet Union discontinued all Russian radio transmissions in the frequency bands used by the Apollo Project in order to avoid any possible interference, and Russian ships stationed themselves in the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans in case an emergency rescue would become necessary. Had the astronaut capsule touched down near a Russian ship, the Russians would undoubtedly have expended as much care and effort in their rescue as if Russian cosmonauts had returned from a space trip. If Russian space travelers should ever be in a similar emergency situation, Americans would do the same without any doubt.

Higher food production through survey and assessment from orbit, and better food distribution through improved international relations, are only two examples of how profoundly the space program will impact life on Earth. I would like to quote two other examples: stimulation of technological development, and generation of scientific knowledge.

The requirements for high precision and for extreme reliability which must be imposed upon the components of a moon-travelling spacecraft are entirely unprecedented in the history of engineering. The development of systems which meet these severe requirements has provided us a unique opportunity to find new material and methods, to invent better technical systems, to manufacturing procedures, to lengthen the lifetimes of instruments, and even to discover new laws of nature.

All this newly acquired technical knowledge is also available for application to Earth-bound technologies. Every year, about a thousand technical innovations generated in the space program find their ways into our Earthly technology where they lead to better kitchen appliances and farm equipment, better sewing machines and radios, better ships and airplanes, better weather forecasting and storm warning, better communications, better medical instruments, better utensils and tools for everyday life. Presumably, you will ask now why we must develop first a life support system for our moon-travelling astronauts, before we can build a remote-reading sensor system for heart patients. The answer is simple: significant progress in the solutions of technical problems is frequently made not by a direct approach, but by first setting a goal of high challenge which offers a strong motivation for innovative work, which fires the imagination and spurs men to expend their best efforts, and which acts as a catalyst by including chains of other reactions.

Spaceflight without any doubt is playing exactly this role. The voyage to Mars will certainly not be a direct source of food for the hungry. However, it will lead to so many new technologies and capabilities that the spin-offs from this project alone will be worth many times the cost of its implementation.

Besides the need for new technologies, there is a continuing great need for new basic knowledge in the sciences if we wish to improve the conditions of human life on Earth. We need more knowledge in physics and chemistry, in biology and physiology, and very particularly in medicine to cope with all these problems which threaten man’s life: hunger, disease, contamination of food and water, pollution of the environment.

We need more young men and women who choose science as a career and we need better support for those scientists who have the talent and the determination to engage in fruitful research work. Challenging research objectives must be available, and sufficient support for research projects must be provided. Again, the space program with its wonderful opportunities to engage in truly magnificent research studies of moons and planets, of physics and astronomy, of biology and medicine is an almost ideal catalyst which induces the reaction between the motivation for scientific work, opportunities to observe exciting phenomena of nature, and material support needed to carry out the research effort.

Among all the activities which are directed, controlled, and funded by the American government, the space program is certainly the most visible and probably the most debated activity, although it consumes only 1.6 percent of the total national budget, and 3 per mille (less than one-third of 1 percent) of the gross national product. As a stimulant and catalyst for the development of new technologies, and for research in the basic sciences, it is unparalleled by any other activity. In this respect, we may even say that the space program is taking over a function which for three or four thousand years has been the sad prerogative of wars.

How much human suffering can be avoided if nations, instead of competing with their bomb-dropping fleets of airplanes and rockets, compete with their moon-travelling space ships! This competition is full of promise for brilliant victories, but it leaves no room for the bitter fate of the vanquished, which breeds nothing but revenge and new wars.

Although our space program seems to lead us away from our Earth and out toward the moon, the sun, the planets, and the stars, I believe that none of these celestial objects will find as much attention and study by space scientists as our Earth. It will become a better Earth, not only because of all the new technological and scientific knowledge which we will apply to the betterment of life, but also because we are developing a far deeper appreciation of our Earth, of life, and of man.

The photograph which I enclose with this letter shows a view of our Earth as seen from Apollo 8 when it orbited the moon at Christmas, 1968. Of all the many wonderful results of the space program so far, this picture may be the most important one. It opened our eyes to the fact that our Earth is a beautiful and most precious island in an unlimited void, and that there is no other place for us to live but the thin surface layer of our planet, bordered by the bleak nothingness of space. Never before did so many people recognize how limited our Earth really is, and how perilous it would be to tamper with its ecological balance. Ever since this picture was first published, voices have become louder and louder warning of the grave problems that confront man in our times: pollution, hunger, poverty, urban living, food production, water control, overpopulation. It is certainly not by accident that we begin to see the tremendous tasks waiting for us at a time when the young space age has provided us the first good look at our own planet.

Very fortunately though, the space age not only holds out a mirror in which we can see ourselves, it also provides us with the technologies, the challenge, the motivation, and even with the optimism to attack these tasks with confidence. What we learn in our space program, I believe, is fully supporting what Albert Schweitzer had in mind when he said: “I am looking at the future with concern, but with good hope.”

My very best wishes will always be with you, and with your children.

Very sincerely yours,

Ernst Stuhlinger

Associate Director for Science, NASA, 1970

480px-NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg
 

LuffyZoro

Member
It is precisely the advancement of vehicles, propulsion, etc., that are at the very core of defining and maximizing the benefits of space exploration, and it is massively under funded. The "science" stuff is not important at this point. Darwin was able to make his discoveries because getting to the Galapagos was much cheaper than it had been before, because sea-faring was common and highly advanced at that point. Same thing with all other forms of explorations. You need the most advanced tech, the tools, etc., to be able to have the independence to do the research and exploration you want.

Seafaring didn't get to that level of advancement until thousands of years of technological advancements built up. It didn't get there by people 2000 years ago saying "I'm going to build the best possible ship" and then doing it, end of story. Development builds on itself. This mission gives us more information to improve in the future, and is itself an improvement over the past.
 

Ether_Snake

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Seafaring didn't get to that level of advancement until thousands of years of technological advancements built up. It didn't get there by people 2000 years ago saying "I'm going to build the best possible ship" and then doing it, end of story. Development builds on itself. This mission gives us more information to improve in the future, and is itself an improvement over the past.

K and so did space exploration if you want to play that game, since fireworks were invented 2000 years ago.

Now we are at the stage where we can decide to improve technology for long-term planning, not just to leave things as is and just go fish to survive another day.

Philip Ragan, co-author of the book "Leaving the Planet by Space Elevator", states that "The first country to deploy a space elevator will have a 95 percent cost advantage and could potentially control all space activities."

With a space elevator, materials might be sent into orbit at a fraction of the current cost. As of 2000, conventional rocket designs cost about US$25,000 per kilogram (US$11,000 per pound) for transfer to geostationary orbit.[54] Current proposals envision payload prices starting as low as $220 per kilogram ($100 per pound),[55] similar to the $5–$300/kg estimates of the Launch loop, but higher than the $310/ton to 500 km orbit quoted[56] to Dr. Jerry Pournelle for an orbital airship system.

Now let's see who is really resignated and asking for cuts.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
There are never any guarantees in exploration. That is just a fact. You need to accept that sometimes, you won't find anything, since the alternative is to not explore at all.
 

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
Nothing involving the exploration and ideas of space and other planets is a failure.
 
It's not a failure, you're just disappointed at the reality check between sci-fi and actual scientific planetary exploration.

Real science isn't anywhere near as flashy or immediately interesting, but it's silly to say Curiosity was a failure because it didn't traverse crazy distances and unearthed the Prothean artifacts by now.
 

KHarvey16

Member
As the OP said, you could do that without an expensive rover on board. So take the cash spent on making the rover and its mission, and put that to better use, for example more space flight research.

Heck, just dumping a nice "Mars stream cam" camera would have been enough.

Complete nonsense. If you're going to spend the hundreds of millions or billions to send anything to Mars, why not make it a rover capable of doing something?
 

Chony

Member
Who cares about sending people on Mars? How is this some sort of inherent need? We have plenty of stuff to put in space for various reasons, doesn't have to be people, but we don't have the means to do it for cheap because money isn't going where it should go be going and instead is being sunk in projects that matter very little and have very little economic benefits.

Don't tell me being able to put stuff in space and bring it back easily wouldn't have more economic benefits and hence wouldn't attract more public and private funding. That's like saying "let's keep sending more and more important people overseas, on rafts".

It is precisely the advancement of vehicles, propulsion, etc., that are at the very core of defining and maximizing the benefits of space exploration, and it is massively under funded. The "science" stuff is not important at this point. Darwin was able to make his discoveries because getting to the Galapagos was much cheaper than it had been before, because sea-faring was common and highly advanced at that point. Same thing with all other forms of explorations. You need the most advanced tech, the tools, etc., to be able to have the independence to do the research and exploration you want.

You need cheaper space travel, period, and all efforts should be consecrated to that if we want to make any significant advancements at anything else space-related, since anything we do in space is entirely dependent of the advancement of said technology.

Going to mars (and space travel in general) is really hard.

http://youtu.be/fturU0u5KJo

The technology may be 'old' but we are working with materials and propulsion systems that are at the limit of technology. How has air travel improved in the last forty years?
 

Ether_Snake

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Complete nonsense. If you're going to spend the hundreds of millions or billions to send anything to Mars, why not make it a rover capable of doing something?

It cost 2.5B for the MSL, most of which goes to the rover itself and the post-landing mission.

So it's not complete nonsense to NOT do this mission and instead take that money to fully dedicate it to a mission of which the entire goal is to increase our ability to put stuff in space with more ease for cheaper.

You are assuming the rover had to be sent, but it didn't, that money can be better spent for long-term gains (a space elevator has been evaluated to be possible to build for between 8 to 15 billion dollars).

Again, all the money not spent on cutting down costs makes all future research costlier than they need to be, and hence fewer.

Going to mars (and space travel in general) is really hard.

http://youtu.be/fturU0u5KJo

The technology may be 'old' but we are working with materials and propulsion systems that are at the limit of technology. How has air travel improved in the last forty years?

Air travel has improved, and is about to improve further. We are cutting down on fuel consumption massively, making flights cheaper. We are improving aerodynamics, making the aircrafts lighter, etc. We now have UAVs, and aircrafts which are not only autonomous but which can stay in the air for over two weeks non-stop (solar powered).

And much more.
 
I will say this though, the "it's not good enough" attitude is actually good for the advancement of technology and science. Now, where the danger lies is not pushing forward. It's very easy to see failure as an endpoint rather than what it truly is; a stepping stone.
 

vapor

Member
Ether, you're kind of misguided about this (although your argument is interesting).

Darwin would not have known what to DO at the Galapagos if universities had not advanced, if the other sciences than ship building had not advanced in any way, if optics had not been invented, if ALL of the other advancements in society and humanity had not occurred. It wasn't simply having a better ship that led to On The Origin... it was everything else as well.

Robotics are a massive part of the precursor techs required for exploration and research in space. Humans are weak, squishy and vulnerable. Advancing robotic tech is going to allow us to do so much more, so much quicker in space.

I agree we haven't put enough focus on advancing our launcher systems, and that the returns would be great. But to say that science should be linearized so everyone focuses on one subject at a time is kind of strange.
 
Again, all the money not spent on cutting down costs makes all future research costlier than they need to be, and hence fewer.

I think it's dangerous to have a single focus, even more so to think that the space program has only this one major hurdle.

In product/project management you don't put all your resources on one problem because this could prevent you from anticipating other issues that may creep up, or worse, you get tunnel vision that prevents you from new discoveries.

There is never just one problem or issue to be solved.
 

Ether_Snake

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Ether, you're kind of misguided about this (although your argument is interesting).

Darwin would not have known what to DO at the Galapagos if universities had not advanced, if the other sciences than ship building had not advanced in any way, if optics had not been invented, if ALL of the other advancements in society and humanity had not occurred. It wasn't simply having a better ship that led to On The Origin... it was everything else as well.

Robotics are a massive part of the precursor techs required for exploration and research in space. Humans are weak, squishy and vulnerable. Advancing robotic tech is going to allow us to do so much more, so much quicker in space.

I agree we haven't put enough focus on advancing our launcher systems, and that the returns would be great. But to say that science should be linearized so everyone focuses on one subject at a time is kind of strange.

All of the stuff the Mars rover is doing, we can already do on Earth. It is doing absolutely nothing except telling us stuff about Mars. So the advancement of science as a result of analysis of Mars is very minimal, and the feedback on technological advancements as a result are even smaller since all of it can be developed and applied to Earth.

On the other hand, putting all efforts on making space travel/work common, by massively reducing cost, eliminating the need of human presence, being able to put increasingly heavier stuff in space, making space-born self-assembly possible (3D-printers + robots, not 3D-printed pizzas like NASA is doing), and bringing stuff back from space, will bring about advancements in science at a much faster rate. There is no rush to know if life was on Mars at some point, but there is an absolute immediate need for humans to improve the technology needed to get to space and back much faster and cheaper.

Look at all the recent advancements that directly apply to the construction of a space elevator, yet we have the tech to do it already. Yet instead we waste cash sending a robot on Mars to tell us about things we can find out about twenty years from now or later, which would change nothing in the meantime.

edit: It's not a single focus, it's a door. Open it and you can do all sorts of things. Right now we are sticking our fingers under the gap to feel the other side and tap ourselves on the shoulder when we touch something.
 

Remmy2112

Member
Undirected scientific research without hard constrictions like X dollars in Y days/weeks/months/years with Z goal has led to some of the most important scientific innovations of the last two thousand years. Snake, you are a little too goal-oriented in your approach to this along with a belief that we seem to know all we need to know about putting people on the planet and should instead focus on building better space travel technology. NASA disagrees, and I'm going to side with the experts on this one.

Edit: You also don't seem to grasp the fact that NASA's budget is extremely limited and shrinking all the time. This rover was possible because its cost was spread out over many years and aside from the possibility that it could have faceplanted into the Martian dirt there was not a lot of risk of a spectacular failure. A space elevator on the other hand could end up being very risky in human lives from construction and NASA's funding/credibility if things go wrong and/or the project falls behind schedule. There is already enough discontent among American politicians on both sides of the aisle about the future of space travel without dangling a project many will regard as a expensive boondoggle in front of them, even if that is really not the case. And the rest of the world seems content to not even bother with space exploration.
 
edit: It's not a single focus, it's a door. Open it and you can do all sorts of things. Right now we are sticking our fingers under the gap to feel the other side and tap ourselves on the shoulder when we touch something.

That door could easily be a pandora's box. If aliens suddenly see that we are capable of interstellar travel BEFORE the Gundams are ready we're fucked. This is why science!
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Let me only remind you of the recent near-tragedy of Apollo 13. When the time of the crucial reentry of the astronauts approached, the Soviet Union discontinued all Russian radio transmissions in the frequency bands used by the Apollo Project in order to avoid any possible interference, and Russian ships stationed themselves in the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans in case an emergency rescue would become necessary. Had the astronaut capsule touched down near a Russian ship, the Russians would undoubtedly have expended as much care and effort in their rescue as if Russian cosmonauts had returned from a space trip. If Russian space travelers should ever be in a similar emergency situation, Americans would do the same without any doubt.
I didn't know about this Soviet Union tidbits. Very cool.
 
That door could easily be a pandora's box. If aliens suddenly see that we are capable of interstellar travel BEFORE the Gundams are ready we're fucked. This is why science!
Its more like in an RPG where there are items needed behind many doors to "advance to the next level," or complete the current "dungeon" depending on perspective. In this World, the "rooms" to explore have so many doors of their own within that a person could diverge from the entire arc and end up just basically fishing, indefinitely.
 

Ether_Snake

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Its more like in an RPG where there are items needed behind many doors to "advance to the next level," or complete the current "dungeon" depending on perspective. In this World, the "rooms" to explore have so many doors of their own within that a person could diverge from the entire arc and end up just basically fishing, indefinitely.

Wrong, since no doors can exist in front or next to this one; to do anything in space you need the tech (and need it to be cheap) to put things in space. It all starts there.
 

vapor

Member
All of the stuff the Mars rover is doing, we can already do on Earth. It is doing absolutely nothing except telling us stuff about Mars. So the advancement of science as a result of analysis of Mars is very minimal, and the feedback on technological advancements as a result are even smaller since all of it can be developed and applied to Earth.

I see what you're saying - we could model the latency issues, pretend to land the rover (despite massive atmosphere differences...), and so on. But at some point you have to go from "we /think/ we can do this" to "we're doing it"..


On the other hand, putting all efforts on making space travel/work common, by massively reducing cost, eliminating the need of human presence, being able to put increasingly heavier stuff in space, making space-born self-assembly possible (3D-printers + robots, not 3D-printed pizzas like NASA is doing), and bringing stuff back from space, will bring about advancements in science at a much faster rate. There is no rush to know if life was on Mars at some point, but there is an absolute immediate need for humans to improve the technology needed to get to space and back much faster and cheaper.

Haha, the pizza thing is glorious. They ARE looking to build everything in space, as it goes; printing pizza is a great headline grabber though. It is equally essential for manned exploration, to be fair though! It's WAY more efficient (than even a space elevator) to utilise stuff that is already in space than to launch it from the ground. This in-situ resource utilisation is a massive focus for NASA right now, as they recognise that it will essentially bypass the whole launcher argument.

There was a recent test of a rocket nozzle that was 3D printed, as an example.


Look at all the recent advancements that directly apply to the construction of a space elevator, yet we have the tech to do it already. Yet instead we waste cash sending a robot on Mars to tell us about things we can find out about twenty years from now or later, which would change nothing in the meantime.

I'm curious; my understanding was that space elevators relied on some magical materials that haven't been made yet, and that the concequences of the thing breaking would essentially be catastrophic. Do you have any links that go into these subjects?

edit: It's not a single focus, it's a door. Open it and you can do all sorts of things. Right now we are sticking our fingers under the gap to feel the other side and tap ourselves on the shoulder when we touch something.

Yeah, I hear you. Like I say I think we're not giving enough focus on the basics. But, private industry is starting to pick up the slack, as well as other nations; see Japan's recent launch.

NASA has an interesting vision document online about their approach to exploration in the next few years. *edit* here it is! http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/ExplorationReport_508_6-4-12.pdf
 

Crayons

Banned
What if Mars was where people lived before Earth and the reason there was radiation there was because over 99% of the people there were killed after a war with nuclear weapons and then they came to Earth and most science, math, etc was all lost so they started over again and we're all the descendents of those survivors.
 
Wrong, since no doors can exist in front or next to this one; to do anything in space you need the tech (and need it to be cheap) to put things in space. It all starts there.
Its not "walk through the door" and fly to space better. Its "how does one spend the time gathering items needed for whatever project or adventure that is currently within the 'guild's' focus?" Do we spend all of the time gathering for better lift capabilities? Its an open-World sandbox MMORPG, not a linear maze. Its not like new launching technologies are being ignored in universities and within the private sector, let alone; NASA, the ESA, Russia, China, India...
 

Ether_Snake

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I see what you're saying - we could model the latency issues, pretend to land the rover (despite massive atmosphere differences...), and so on. But at some point you have to go from "we /think/ we can do this" to "we're doing it"..




Haha, the pizza thing is glorious. They ARE looking to build everything in space, as it goes; printing pizza is a great headline grabber though. It is equally essential for manned exploration, to be fair though! It's WAY more efficient (than even a space elevator) to utilise stuff that is already in space than to launch it from the ground. This in-situ resource utilisation is a massive focus for NASA right now, as they recognise that it will essentially bypass the whole launcher argument.

There was a recent test of a rocket nozzle that was 3D printed, as an example.




I'm curious; my understanding was that space elevators relied on some magical materials that haven't been made yet, and that the concequences of the thing breaking would essentially be catastrophic. Do you have any links that go into these subjects?



Yeah, I hear you. Like I say I think we're not giving enough focus on the basics. But, private industry is starting to pick up the slack, as well as other nations; see Japan's recent launch.

NASA has an interesting vision document online about their approach to exploration in the next few years. *edit* here it is! http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/ExplorationReport_508_6-4-12.pdf

The space elevator can be made with kevlar. Carbon-nanotube is what is being looked into, but it would already be possible. Obviously, the point is not to build the elevator from A-Z in one go, it's to invest in making it possible. It would not and should not be anything more than a long-term plan, but one that should have started earlier. Even with a space elevator in place, there would logically be a point where you would need to send something too heavy for it to carry, so some sort of rocket can still be needed.

You can read about a couple of the initiatives from the 21st century here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator#21st_century

NASA talks a lot about human space exploration, but that's bollocks. Robots, remote-controlled or AI-driven is the future. You can make a machine with a 100 arms like spaghettis that can assemble or manipulate anything a human could, in space or indoor. The arms can come together to lift heavy things, etc. No need for humans. I actually plan to make a 3D video of this, even shows the control system:)
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Ether_Snake - ignoring the fact that the benefits of the rover in simply the realm of scientific confirmation is worth the entire mission on it's own - consider that sending a rover that is capable of engaging the general public, and thus potentially encourage continued or even better funding for organizations like NASA.

Your complaint is rooted in this idea that you know the best way to get from A to Z, when I just can't see your position holding any more weight than an organization like NASA.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
K and so did space exploration if you want to play that game, since fireworks were invented 2000 years ago.

Now we are at the stage where we can decide to improve technology for long-term planning, not just to leave things as is and just go fish to survive another day.

Now let's see who is really resignated and asking for cuts.

A space elevator is a great idea, and you'll probably find that nobody wants a space elevator more than NASA.

But there's a ton of engineering challenges to get one up and running, not including the fact that we don't currently have the ability to make a giant carbon nanotube line at that size. We need some incredible technological leaps to get to that point.

Are you somehow expecting that you can turn NASA into a giant carbon nanotube researching department overnight? Should NASA twiddle its thumbs and do nothing while these technologies improve?
 

Ether_Snake

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A space elevator is a great idea, and you'll probably find that nobody wants a space elevator more than NASA.

But there's a ton of engineering challenges to get one up and running, not including the fact that we don't currently have the ability to make a giant carbon nanotube line at that size. We need some incredible technological leaps to get to that point.

Are you somehow expecting that you can turn NASA into a giant carbon nanotube researching department overnight? Should NASA twiddle its thumbs and do nothing while these technologies improve?

Kevlar is strong enough for the job.

And like I said, a space elevator would never be enough, you still need to be able to send something that weights more or that would fit the constraints imposed by a space elevator. It would far less commonly needed, but it would be fine until then.

Also, I didn't just talk about putting things in space, but also bring them back, and also build things and maintain things in space, as well a reduce the need of humans in space. All things we could start working on now, and a lot of those things can be tested on Earth or NEO. You don't finance NASA just to keep people employed. You need an inverted pyramid of objectives and start at the bottom. The more "achievements" you unlock, the more stuff you can do as a result, the more people can be hired to do those things.
 

vapor

Member
The space elevator can be made with kevlar. Carbon-nanotube is what is being looked into, but it would already be possible. Obviously, the point is not to build the elevator from A-Z in one go, it's to invest in making it possible. It would not and should not be anything more than a long-term plan, but one that should have started earlier. Even with a space elevator in place, there would logically be a point where you would need to send something too heavy for it to carry, so some sort of rocket can still be needed.

You can read about a couple of the initiatives from the 21st century here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator#21st_century

NASA talks a lot about human space exploration, but that's bollocks. Robots, remote-controlled or AI-driven is the future. You can make a machine with a 100 arms like spaghettis that can assemble or manipulate anything a human could, in space or indoor. The arms can come together to lift heavy things, etc. No need for humans. I actually plan to make a 3D video of this, even shows the control system:)

Checking into that article, it mentions that kevlar has a 100-400km breaking length, and the requirement for geostationary is a breaking length of around 4900km... graphene and carbon nanotubes have potential as cable materials, but are not proven yet. I guess you could get to work on the climber systems etc with a smaller, non-GEO system with kevlar, but it'd be far from the real thing.

I'm still not sure how they'd handle having the cable break. Last I read up on that, if you have a cable that reaches GEO then it'd potentially wrap / smash around a a few thousand km of the earth if it snapped and came falling down.

I agree on the human space exploration thing, as it goes. That's why I'm kind of mystified that you think putting Curiosity out there was a waste!
 

Lamel

Banned
We got some people in this thread that should work for NASA, they have easy solutions for all our space travel problems and know better than the guys actually working on them.
 

Ether_Snake

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Checking into that article, it mentions that kevlar has a 100-400km breaking length, and the requirement for geostationary is around 4900km... graphene and carbon nanotubes have potential as cable materials, but are not proven yet. I guess you could get to work on the climber systems etc with a smaller, non-GEO system with kevlar, but it'd be far from the real thing.

I'm still not sure how they'd handle having the cable break. Last I read up on that, if you have a cable that reaches GEO then it'd potentially wrap / smash around a a few thousand km of the earth if it snapped and came falling down.

I agree on the human space exploration thing, as it goes. That's why I'm kind of mystified that you think putting Curiosity out there was a waste!

If it breaks you need a system in place that will react accordingly. That's the point of getting to work on it. You could have balloons holding every Xkm of cable in case of a break.

Curiosity is not a waste in a different context, it's a waste in the current context.
 

morch

Member
It's a fact finding mission, the landing was a success which is pretty important and it was reasonably cheap for what it achieved so far!

If anything, this mission proved without a doubt that there's no-one there to raise them if you did.

seriously, PMSL, what are you? some kind of rocket man?
 

vapor

Member
... You can make a machine with a 100 arms like spaghettis that can assemble or manipulate anything a human could, in space or indoor. The arms can come together to lift heavy things, etc. No need for humans. I actually plan to make a 3D video of this, even shows the control system:)

Also; that sounds rad. I'd love to see it when you're done :)
 

Bodacious

Banned
Watch this a few times and let it soak in ...

http://distancetomars.com/


Just getting something to land on the surface of Mars in itself is a worthwhile proof of concept. And proving that no life exists on Mars is a big WIN for humanity. If there was any appreciable life on Mars, we'd have a huge ethical dilemma on our hands about what, if anything, could be done with the place. If there is no life, it's all ours to colonize and rape at our convenience.
 

vapor

Member
If it breaks you need a system in place that will react accordingly. That's the point of getting to work on it. You could have balloons holding every Xkm of cable in case of a break.

Curiosity is not a waste in a different context, it's a waste in the current context.

Fair enough, it's probably a solvable issue. And from your link, it seems like there's going to be a few x-prize style initiatives to start tackling the issues.

In the mean time, I'm glad NASA is putting effort into advancing many areas of space research. It means that they are advancing science in many ways, instead of just one. If you check that doc I linked you'll see that amongst the many capabilities they want to develop / enhance, lifters, space propulsion, 3D printing, in-situ resource utilisation and robotics are essential to their vision. These are all seriously worthwhile endeavors, IMO.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Watch this a few times and let it soak in ...

http://distancetomars.com/

That's nothing, Voyager was launched in 1977, and is now outside the solar system.

Fair enough, it's probably a solvable issue. And from your link, it seems like there's going to be a few x-prize style initiatives to start tackling the issues.

In the mean time, I'm glad NASA is putting effort into advancing many areas of space research. It means that they are advancing science in many ways, instead of just one. If you check that doc I linked you'll see that amongst the many capabilities they want to develop / enhance, lifters, space propulsion, 3D printing, in-situ resource utilisation and robotics are essential to their vision. These are all seriously worthwhile endeavors, IMO.

They are when you look at the insignificant cost compared to other wastes in other programs such as the military, but from my point of view they are (not my fault the US government is spending so much cash on wars). It's basically saying "well ok I guess we'll do with what we have". To me NASA failed to make their case, and it's not surprising for a government agency. People are just happy to have a job.
 

Josh7289

Member
OP, success or failure in science is not based on finding the results you hope to find. If you find any results at all, it's a success. We do science to further our collective knowledge as a species, and Curiosity has gathered some of the best data and observations humanity has ever had for better understanding the other planet most resembling our own in the Solar System. It's been a total success in this regard.
 

Purkake4

Banned
In the PR sense it most certainly is. Big news blip at the successful landing, pretty much nothing for a year and then "we didn't find any methane". They should work on their PR, you can't just do billion-dollar science quietly in corner today.
 
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