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[Ouija Luigi]

I am not saying you are wrong, but the world is bigger than just the USA you know?

It's perfectly fine in here Asia.

True enough, but it would seem that what happens in the states culturally tends to reflect on other countries. At least here in the west.

Even in my country I've heard people discuss more about maga and trump than our own elections. Sure it's not too surprising since it was a really noteworthy election, but this alt right stuff seems to have found it's way here as well. At least there is a lot of that same sentiment going around.

 

[Stoop Man]

As for how to thwart this hate, I really can't say. But I do know that throwing more hate in to the mix will only make people dig more into their trenches and a divide just grows larger. Those who are in deep probably won't respond to anything contrary to their beliefs, but there a lot of people on the verge. Maybe open dialog with them?

Tough question.

Open dialogues are just an invitation to harassment and shitposting, unfortunately. Even if you take away the outright bigotry, you still have to deal with a culture that not just tolerates, but often encourages antisocial behavior.

It would be great for game servers to analyze voice and text chat for abusive language and automatically forward incidents to a moderation team.

Sounds creepy, but google and facebook are working on it. However, it's better at flagging anti-hate speech than actual hate speech.

 

[petran79]

Watching a far right march or speech, even with police presence nearby, is much more fearsome than any online insult. Once in a long distance bus an employee warned us that a far right group was making a speech and South Asian or African foreigners should leave the bus from another road.

I doubt those who spout those video game insults would even leave their comfort zone and step into action. I doubt they even bother with video games. They already are in the fringe zone.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

I'm glad that this topic has opened up a bit of discussion here. I'm still seeing a lot of people confusing the ever-present use of racism in video game communities with the actual push by white supremacist organizations utilizing that racism/bigotry as an in to their ideology, but hopefully a few are opening their eyes to what's happening in gaming.

I want to reiterate, I think this is still a niche movement, but it's really starting to infiltrate into all aspects of social gaming, especially on the internet. I'm going to agree that the internet is the root cause for all of this spread of white nationalism, but it's just the starting point. As I said earlier, it's getting into things everywhere and gamers are being used as soldiers in their war of attrition.

I don't know if this topic has much steam left in it, but I updated the OP with a few of the links on the last page because I thought they were pretty great and very relevant. Thanks to everyone who's contributed here, and to the other people asking questions, I think that's fine as long as you come in with an open mind. If you're open to the answers people send back your way and willing to logically process the information provided, it can be helpful in refining the overall picture presented here. However, I'm also aware that there are certain forces that want to make this all seem like hyperbolic nonsense because they thrive on the ignorance of those they seek to turn to their side. Luckily, that stuff doesn't really work as well on Neogaf.

This is why I'm so proud to work on Overwatch. Our team knows the right side of history.

I do take exception with your idea that there is little to no quality control in the industry. It's the kind of conclusion drawn from being outside of it, and is not reflective of the actual state of the industry.

Just to clarify myself, I'm not saying there isn't ANY quality control, just that the pace of the industry has made for very little of it.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

I'm glad that this topic has opened up a bit of discussion here. I'm still seeing a lot of people confusing the ever-present use of racism in video game communities with the actual push by white supremacist organizations utilizing that racism/bigotry as an in to their ideology, but hopefully a few are opening their eyes to what's happening in gaming.

I want to reiterate, I think this is still a niche movement, but it's really starting to infiltrate into all aspects of social gaming, especially on the internet. I'm going to agree that the internet is the root cause for all of this spread of white nationalism, but it's just the starting point. As I said earlier, it's getting into things everywhere and gamers are being used as soldiers in their war of attrition.

I don't know if this topic has much steam left in it, but I updated the OP with a few of the links on the last page because I thought they were pretty great and very relevant. Thanks to everyone who's contributed here, and to the other people asking questions, I think that's fine as long as you come in with an open mind. If you're open to the answers people send back your way and willing to logically process the information provided, it can be helpful in refining the overall picture presented here. However, I'm also aware that there are certain forces that want to make this all seem like hyperbolic nonsense because they thrive on the ignorance of those they seek to turn to their side. Luckily, that stuff doesn't really work as well on Neogaf.



Just to clarify myself, I'm not saying there isn't ANY quality control, just that the pace of the industry has made for very little of it.

Considering quality assurance is my field, I'm going to have to say that while I understand your feeling, it's still wrong. Quality is a major driving force in and for development. But maybe I'm blind to other companies' failures there (whatever they may be) because Blizzard is so good at it. : )

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Considering quality assurance is my field, I'm going to have to say that while I understand your feeling, it's still wrong. Quality is a major driving force in and for development. But maybe I'm blind to other companies' failures there (whatever they may be) because Blizzard is so good at it. : )

Just so we're on the same page, quality means more than just overall polish. Games are still coming into their own versus certain venues such as movies and novels. Those latter industries have had over a century (or millenia) of curatorship and analysis to truly pin down things such as quality of message, technique, and form. Gaming has evolved so much over the last 30 years with different platforms, evolving genres, mediums of delivery, etc. Take all this with the reality of now thousands of games being released yearly and it becomes apparent how easy it is for problematic content and messaging to fall through the cracks of social acceptance with little pushback from within. It can be difficult to keep up with all the changes, let alone truly evaluate them.

I'm sure blizzard at times tries harder than most, but games are just in a league of their own with this issue right now.

 

[DrFurbs]

Educate yourself. A considerable body of literature suggests the effects of chronic exposure to prejudice and discrimination is one of the factors that promotes racial health inequalities. Kids these days always offended that some people die a decade earlier purely for being born with darker skin.

Yes your are correct as I don't doubt it at all but I'll leave it there.

Educate myself. That's funny 😄

 

[Aggie CMD]

Mass market video games (mostly what we have called AAA games) have become ubiquitous with young people (mostly older teenagers and people in their early 20's, a large amount who are white). A number of these people have stalled out in life or are lost with little or no real ambition. Many of them are depressed about this state of existence and bitter towards the rest of the world because they can't seem to find a way to fit in with current society.

You are going to have to back these types of statements with sources.

 

[lazygecko]

True enough, but it would seem that what happens in the states culturally tends to reflect on other countries. At least here in the west.

Even in my country I've heard people discuss more about maga and trump than our own elections. Sure it's not too surprising since it was a really noteworthy election, but this alt right stuff seems to have found it's way here as well. At least there is a lot of that same sentiment going around.

Climate change denial has started manifesting among the Swedish far right. This used to be pretty much an exclusively American phenomenom.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

Here is my message to anyone who doesn't consider themselves a white supremacist. Please read this before you make things any worse.

Attacking someone or their beliefs has never in history of humanity changed someones opinion. They can shut up about their beliefs. You can destroy their will. Or in absolute best case scenario, they can start doubting themselves. But even in this case it wasn't YOU or your attacks who changed their beliefs, the person themselves changed their own beliefs.

To defeat racism you need to understand it. It's born out of fear. "That black guy is going to X, oh god" etc. Now you might associate racism with anger, but then you are not taking into account all the "hidden racism" where many people are not even aware they are racist. Only very extreme of "racism spectrum" become angry and violent. Anger is not the emotion you are looking for, FEAR is. This fear is born out of fear for ones own survival, perhaps the strongest instinct a person can have. Or in other words racism is having "broken survival instinct".

So how is ATTACKING someone who is afraid going to fix them? You can't convince someone with an action like that, it can only make them dig deeper into their positions. So I can only conclude attacking has one of two goals. Either you want to make them submit to your will, or you want to completely destroy them. Is this something you really want to do?

Person is afraid
- On one side you have someone who says "I will take care of you", we will defeat your source of fear
- On other side is a person who wants to destroy you and belittles you for being afraid
Which one do you think the person will listen to?

I am against violence. I am against discrimination. Colour of your skin shouldn't matter. "Defeating" racism would make me incredibly happy. But beating someone with a stick does not make them like you. It doesn't matter if stick is physical or metaphorical, same principle applies. It's the reason why racism just seems to keep popping back. It's not because "it's human nature". It's because we beat racism with a stick, racism went to hiding but was never really defeated.

Only way we can "defeat racism" is by convincing them to switch sides. So it irks me that people describe this situation like it was a war and gaming was a battlefield.

 

[Dipper145]

I think an important part of combating this kind of situation in gaming is to actually stand up and make your voices heard when people use racism over voice or text chat in video games. It might not change that individuals opinions, or comments, but it shows all the other people that racist behavior is not accepted or a part of the social mores of gaming. Important in particular to stop younger / new gamers from having racism normalized at such a young and impressionable age, slowly creating a new non-racist gaming community.

 

[Stoop Man]

I think an important part of combating this kind of situation in gaming is to actually stand up and make your voices heard when people use racism over voice or text chat in video games. It might not change that individuals opinions, or comments, but it shows all the other people that racist behavior is not accepted or a part of the social mores of gaming. Important in particular to stop younger / new gamers from having racism normalized at such a young and impressionable age, slowly creating a new non-racist gaming community.

I think just telling someone spouting bigoted shit to fuck of is an under appreciated tactic.

 

[kingbean]

EDIT: sorry if I'm off topic. I live in the American south and I'm in my late 20s and I feel I haven't met many actual racists. Even though the few I've met or know is a few to many and amazingly shocking.

I've surrounded myself with a diverse group of friends of all ethnicities and for most of my adult life nearly forgot that racism is real, as absurd as that sounds.

I was reminded not long ago when a friend visited to play some genesis(our favorite game being Streets of Rage 2) anyway my roommates step dad was visiting and we heard him call Steve the n-word and I could see how bad it made him feel and I nearly fucking cried man. And as a white guy I knew hating people for such insanely stupid and pointless reasons was terrible but I'd never seen it on such a personal level.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, it was just on my mind to post it. Sorry if it's meaningless. But the topic recalled and reminded me that just because I don't see it doesnt mean it's not there and that racism isn't something I should ever take lightly.

 

[NHarmonic.]

Here is my message to anyone who doesn't consider themselves a white supremacist. Please read this before you make things any worse.

Attacking someone or their beliefs has never in history of humanity changed someones opinion. They can shut up about their beliefs. You can destroy their will. Or in absolute best case scenario, they can start doubting themselves. But even in this case it wasn't YOU or your attacks who changed their beliefs, the person themselves changed their own beliefs.

To defeat racism you need to understand it. It's born out of fear. "That black guy is going to X, oh god" etc. Now you might associate racism with anger, but then you are not taking into account all the "hidden racism" where many people are not even aware they are racist. Only very extreme of "racism spectrum" become angry and violent. Anger is not the emotion you are looking for, FEAR is. This fear is born out of fear for ones own survival, perhaps the strongest instinct a person can have. Or in other words racism is having "broken survival instinct".

So how is ATTACKING someone who is afraid going to fix them? You can't convince someone with an action like that, it can only make them dig deeper into their positions. So I can only conclude attacking has one of two goals. Either you want to make them submit to your will, or you want to completely destroy them. Is this something you really want to do?

Person is afraid
- On one side you have someone who says "I will take care of you", we will defeat your source of fear
- On other side is a person who wants to destroy you and belittles you for being afraid
Which one do you think the person will listen to?

I am against violence. I am against discrimination. Colour of your skin shouldn't matter. "Defeating" racism would make me incredibly happy. But beating someone with a stick does not make them like you. It doesn't matter if stick is physical or metaphorical, same principle applies. It's the reason why racism just seems to keep popping back. It's not because "it's human nature". It's because we beat racism with a stick, racism went to hiding but was never really defeated.

Only way we can "defeat racism" is by convincing them to switch sides. So it irks me that people describe this situation like it was a war and gaming was a battlefield.

Mmm i think it's really easy to blame fear in this kind of topics. So, because you're afraid you have this huge urge of causing damage to another person? Verbally? Physically? I don't know. In the end this just reads like "let's be moderates, try to talk things out with racists" but you know in the end, people that go online and say racist or homophobic shit, or attacks/assaults someone based on that stuff are probably too idiotic to be able to reason with them. Their voice shouldn't be tolerated, imo, because when you give them glimpses of validation they feel immediately vindicated (see: Trump) and use that stuff to keep doing damage and perpetuating the same toxic shit.

 

[testtrack321]

EDIT: sorry if I'm off topic. I live in the American south and I'm in my late 20s and I feel I haven't met many actual racists. Even though the few I've met or know is a few to many and amazingly shocking.

I've surrounded myself with a diverse group of friends of all ethnicities and for most of my adult life nearly forgot that racism is real, as absurd as that sounds.

I was reminded not long ago when a friend visited to play some genesis(our favorite game being Streets of Rage 2) anyway my roommates step dad was visiting and we heard him call Steve the n-word and I could see how bad it made him feel and I nearly fucking cried man. And as a white guy I knew hating people for such insanely stupid and pointless reasons was terrible but I'd never seen it on such a personal level.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, it was just on my mind to post it. Sorry if it's meaningless. But the topic recalled and reminded me that just because I don't see it doesnt mean it's not there and that racism isn't something I should ever take lightly.

Did you leave or call out your roommates step dad? Standing up to say it's not right is the first step.

 

[CGwizz]

Gaf is the only gaming site they get shut down fast, other sites i use they are few but they are loud as fuck.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

Mmm i think it's really easy to blame fear in this kind of topics. So, because you're afraid you have this huge urge of causing damage to another person? Verbally? Physically? I don't know. In the end this just reads like "let's be moderates, try to talk things out with racists" but you know in the end, people that go online and say racist or homophobic shit, or attacks/assaults someone based on that stuff are probably too idiotic to be able to reason with them. Their voice shouldn't be tolerated, imo, because when you give them glimpses of validation they feel immediately vindicated (see: Trump) and use that stuff to keep doing damage and perpetuating the same toxic shit.

Any discriminatory action needs to be dealt with. Intention behind actions doesn't matter, if you discriminate or commit violence, you are wrong. And I agree, message of racism should never be tolerated under any circumstances.

You understood my message wrong. Stand firm against racism. Deal with anyone who discriminates physically or with words. But never, EVER make it about hating a person, because the second you do, you will validate their fears & trigger self-preservation instinct. Once that is done, situation is beyond salvaging and your only option is to get rid of the person or let him/her be. Locking someone up because of opinions is not possible for person who believes in human rights, equality etc. So in other words, you lose.

Please notice I said opinions. Anyone who actually threatens someone needs to be punished accordingly, but a person should only be punished for wrongful actions.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't think it's quite that bad to freak out and go despondant, but the answer to keeping it from being besieged from without and within is to make examples of those who would commit bigoted actions for fun or profit. No repurcussions, no reason not to for the hateful.

Take a stand.

Good Post, OP

If you haven't had a chance to yet; give Adam Curtis' documentary Hypernormalisation a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fny99f8amM

It does a lot to find the roots of how we ended up with online radicalisation and a President Trump.

Secondly, This essay from polygon does a lot to go into how games advertisings movement from a nebulous audience to focusing entirely on boys and young-men did a lot to stunt the industry on a creative level despite translating to enormous sales: https://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

I'll throw in a few small conclusions.

Gaming is one of those last great escapist fantasies for young, awkward white boys who are still suffering the trauma of toxic masculinity that is one of those painful holdovers from "the good ol days".

Having a male power fantasy is the last tangential element of being a man's man, where actions speak louder than words, where the world revolves around you.

This is very big right now, not only in gaming in particular, but in the old first world in general: it has become obvious that the old "defaults" ain't going to be the defaults for long and it is ripe pickings for manipulative hate-peddlers.

It's why it's extra necessary for those of us in those "defaults" to jeer these people and movements down, to show it isn't one bit normal or "in defense" of anything but a right to start shit and intimidate. This helps to break the gaslighting that it's a "side vs side".

That was also a very excellent post, GJ.

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

Extremely THIS.

kids this days look for things to be offended about. If someone uses racist language to me, I block or ignore them and get on with my life.

I would have to agree with this in regard to idiots on the internet being idiots. Racial slurs from all sorts, not just whites, have been a part of online gaming since it's inception. I'm not defending it, but lets be realistic. Obnoxious people are one of the reason why I don't do a very much online gaming, and if I do I mute everybody.

Now the idea of using gaming as a way to spread ideology or to recruit to ideology.. isn't really unique to gaming either. Gaming is no different than Hollywood or even the news skewing history or reality to push a political agenda. Media driven propaganda has been there since the beginning as well.

 

[kingbean]

Did you leave or call out your roommates step dad? Standing up to say it's not right is the first step.

He was in the living room and we were in my room. He didn't know we heard him or at least I assume he didn't.

And yeah I asked him if he has a problem with black people and his response www somethibg along the lines of "Naw I don't have a problem with black people but I hate n*****."

I asked him if he hates his son-in-law —his daughter is married to a black dude— he said he was a piece of shit not because he's black but because he can't keep a job and leeches off his daughter.

I figured I didn't have anything else to say and haven't said anything to him since.