Foldedpencil
Banned
Got it. Sorry, but you're initial post wasn't clear to me. I was just trying to make a joke anyway.
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It seems like gaming is under seige by white supremacists
- Thread starter Steeped in a Sea of Games
- Start date
Got it. Sorry, but you're initial post wasn't clear to me. I was just trying to make a joke anyway.
Breitbar and other "alt-right" websites specifically targeted gamers with Gamergate articles , this isn't up for debate.
Post was directed at univee. I knew you were joking. TT reference.
Fine but it's just Ouija Luigi, the other Juniors seem to agree there's a problem that needs addressing, from what I can tell.
I see now your original post meant "specific juniors who only show up for these threads" but it didn't read that way initially.
Ouija Luigi
Member
Hmm, I wasn't aware of that. Do you have any links, not to the actual articles obviously but to articles talking about them? I'm genuinely curious.
I would still argue whether this was big or significant enough to be an actual threat to the community. But I need to look into it a bit more.
Ouija Luigi
Member
I do post on other threads, this is the first of this kind. I was hesitant to take part because I know I have an unpopular opinion, and from what I can tell, gaf can be pretty vindictive. But we are all hear to discuss things, and opinions might differ. Guess we'll just have to live with that.
And honestly, if it's still not clear to everyone, I'm not denying racism or bigotry. Just that I do not see this big threat looming in the sky, waiting to pounce on us.
Here's a video that summarizes how GG was a tool of bannon to weaponize gamers and their memes:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ej_5vyDkZgU
boredofcanada
Member
Yeah it really sucks to be playing with a group and then the conversation turns into "f Obama , and I love Trump and are you black, or Latin" (in grosser terms). So annoying.
Shifty1897
Member
You hit the nail on the head, my friend. I don't know a solution other than killing anonymity on the internet. Which, obviously, most everyone would have a problem with. The next best thing is promoting a culture of tolerance in the real world in hopes that it flows back into people's actions and words when in front of a computer screen.
Anonymity isn't the issue, plenty of people will tweet horrible shit or post on Facebook under their real names. This has occasionally ended hilariously when their employer was forwarded what they wrote, but more often than not, nothing of any real consequence happens to the poster, everyone they care about is high-fiving them and the people who are offended are clearly just sensitive snowflakes who are sore about losing the election.
Didn't Stormfront call themselves the internet's number 1 pewdiepie fansite? Or was it some other site?
Lil'DigiOp
Member
Where have you been? It's already pounced.
Go watch charlottesville footage. We call 'em Nazis but that was a bunch of nerds who play overwatch. Especially the ones in the white polo, khaki pants
MysteryQuesadilla
Member
This is a long article but pretty comprehensive. I'm not linking articles from the awful Daily Stormer here for obvious reasons. https://www.vox.com/culture/2016/12/14/13576192/alt-right-sexism-recruitment
Ouija Luigi
Member
Thanks I'll check it out!
Europe, northern part.
I do know about charlottesville aaand sure some are bound to be gamers, if not most. It' s a popular hobby. Thanks, I'll read it when I get a chance!
Foldedpencil
Banned
Wow, that was really fascinating, and troubling.
Dangansona
Member
Don't be embarrassed by gamers, be embarrassed by humanity.
It seems to manifest around gaming a whole lot.
Sam B did a piece on it on Full Frontal.
Oh, you need to do both.
that's only your perception
There's a lot of nazis in politics, soccer, football in every corner of the world
Ouija Luigi
Member
I'm not going to name names. That commment was meant to be more generalized. I could have worded it better, be less provocative, that I'll admit.
Well I watched the video and read the article (and quite a few linked articles too) and color me learned, I never knew of those connections between gamer gate and alt-right, nor how active it actually is. I have always dismissed gamer gate as just a shitty hash tag, I did know it was pretty much bull shit right from the get go because the whole thing sprung from a douchey ex. I guess that is why I had dismissed it and it has never been such a big issue in my neck of the woods anyway.
But yes, you guys were right, there is organization behind all of this. I would still like to believe that the average gamer is intelligent enough not to fall for this shit and the ones that do are on the fringe. Just that the majority is silent, while the fringe gets loud and political.
As for how to thwart this hate, I really can't say. But I do know that throwing more hate in to the mix will only make people dig more into their trenches and a divide just grows larger. Those who are in deep probably won't respond to anything contrary to their beliefs, but there a lot of people on the verge. Maybe open dialog with them?
Tough question.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
Gaming had white supremacists from jump. Who else you think are calling people the N word on Xbox Live?
Temeculan3000
Member
Since Charlottesville have seen a large uptick in people equating racists with white supremacists. Now obviously the two go hand in hand but it seems that white supremacists typically have a political goal such as white dominance over other races, or separation from other races, etc..while racists are just plain racist but aren't active in any political group trying to directly oppress.
Now of course the actions of racists, and racism does serve to oppress minorities and assist white supremacist causes just by their very nature. I don't deny that.
Now all those 13 your kids saying the N word on Xbox Live? Are they racist? Yes, are they white supremacists? I guess that depends on how you define it, in a sense yes. But in the politically organized sense they are not. I don't think it is wise to push them to seek refuge with actual white supremacist groups.
I hope white supremacy isn't just the new buzzword to attack people with.
This is a big issue in gaming culture, and it needs to be addressed. But I feel a lot of it stems from racism and teens trying to be edge-lords, more than a concerted effort by organized neo nazi groups with a political agenda. I'm sure WS groups do like to prey-upon racism in gaming culture when they can though.
admiraltaftbar
Member
There's an interesting Last Podcast on the Left where they talk about reading the daily stormer and how a lot of the threads are pretty much what you would find on any other nerd culture centric forum with all the added white supremacy.
Or if you watch hbomberguy vids on alt-right YouTubers he mentions a lot of them are big into fantasy books, video games, movies, etc. I think people trying to downplay that it's not just video games/whatever other "nerdy" activity should realize that there's a lot of focus around those interests because neo Nazis know they can get support from those communities. As other people have pointed out, GG being coopted (and started really) by the alt right should be a big tip off that gaming has a problem because even a smaller number of very vocal and visible racists is still an issue not worth ignoring.
Or if you watch hbomberguy vids on alt-right YouTubers he mentions a lot of them are big into fantasy books, video games, movies, etc. I think people trying to downplay that it's not just video games/whatever other "nerdy" activity should realize that there's a lot of focus around those interests because neo Nazis know they can get support from those communities. As other people have pointed out, GG being coopted (and started really) by the alt right should be a big tip off that gaming has a problem because even a smaller number of very vocal and visible racists is still an issue not worth ignoring.
You should ask a non-white person whether they're alarmed. Exposure to discrimination and toxic stress is one of the factors underlying disparities in life expectancies between White and Black individuals in America. Sure, being exposed to that type of shit all the time literally kills minorities, but no threat at all.
This post is like a blindingly-bright billboard for white privilege.
I'm glad you're ready to acknowledge that. But I would like you to think about the fact that you effectively accused a large group of people of being deluded. Not because you had objective access to their collective experiences, or because you had signifcant counter evidence, but simply because you decided that your own subjective experience was likely authoritative. And you decided it would remain as such until someone could prove otherwise, with stronger evidence than you used to dismiss their own subjective experiences.
It is this sort of attitude which is a major problem for conquering the issue we are discussing, an arguably larger one than the far-gone people already lost to hate.
Normalizing the negative behavior is what really made the problem such a big one today. Your way of thinking about the issue really reads like none of this affects you in any way. Honestly, i'm so glad Blizzard is moving more in the right direction with their reporting system and I really hope more games add something like it. PUBG is such a cess pit when the game starts. Gotta take off my headphones most of the time because even though it doesn't affect me hearing people chant hate filled words over and over sucks.
The term "White Supremacist" is being thrown around a bit too casually these days.
My Quake 2 lobbies back in the year 2000 were filled with random racist comments too, this isn't a new phenomenon.
I'm not trying to downplay how wrong it is, and these people are assholes, but I feel like there's a difference between some idiots using racist terms anonymously online and being "white supremacists".
My Quake 2 lobbies back in the year 2000 were filled with random racist comments too, this isn't a new phenomenon.
I'm not trying to downplay how wrong it is, and these people are assholes, but I feel like there's a difference between some idiots using racist terms anonymously online and being "white supremacists".
Burner accounts, swarming of vote-for-play sites, 'celebrity' support, unity of argument for advancement of the thought (say, "middle ground" or "difference in view") that is common to what is seen here on places like neogaf as well as to set up rallies like Charlottesville. that's quite a convergence of language given that we started with political issue words, and now have words directed at obfuscating the intent behind rallies. hell, rallies moving to very public spaces. im not saying gaming originated the movement, or the movement spawned the attitude in gaming. im saying gaming seems to be affected in a new way.
the tactics have come in waves as well, but seem to stay common across many seemingly independent places in media. They (the tactics of white supremacist ideology) seem much more politically effective now than, say, 10 years ago. it was quite a lot about shifting the window of what makes acceptable discourse following gabbergame. it has been a lot about gaslighting lately to best allow for doubt that someone is acting maliciously (since the action across the country seems to have stepped up as well).
The fact that useful idiots accumulate isn't what drives the movement. the movement is driven to accumulate useful idiots.
I don't think saying these things is really much of a conspiracy theory. Maybe if I said it was because Russia would like to destabilize our democracy by showing how easily influenced the public is. maybe if I said it was because china wanted to make westerners mistrust westerners. maybe if I said it was because xenu wants you to cleanse yourself of the illusion that clouds your perception. I don't need to have the foggiest idea why to be unsatisfied with the trend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
do you really need to repeat that word so nonchalantly?
Overly generalized use of terms that imply a lack of racially egalitarian attitudes are worse than actual racism. You're right!
If you go around throwing racial slurs and using those terms as pejoratives for unrelated behaviors, remind us how that's not contributing to the continued marginalization and oppression of minorities.
These discussions inevitably wind up on what threshold of behavior is required to be a "racist" so people can downplay and excuse behavior that contributes to systemic social inequalities.
MotionBlue
Member
Killing anonymity on the internet is the worst possible thing that could happen, racism has existed on the internet long before gaming embraced it. Anonymous internet has been a huge driving force for positive change, people so gladly giving it up is disturbing.
If we're being hyperbolic reductionist, discussing systemic social inequalities on the internet is hypocritical and a waste of time.
Gaming has been mainstream for over a decade. Nerd culture has nothing to do with it.
Extremely THIS.
kids this days look for things to be offended about. If someone uses racist language to me, I block or ignore them and get on with my life.
autoduelist
Member
The term has definitely changed in meaning. Years ago, it was reserved for those who were actively part of various hate groups that sought a litany of racially divisive policies. Many mixed this with national identity, hence white nationalists. Racial impurity and other nonsense play a big role. In general, though, the various terms were saved for those actively pushing their agenda in an organized manner - members of various neo-nazi groups and other variants.
Now it's thrown around to describe a rather wide range of behavior, like:
Ignorant jerks, mostly, that don't realize how awful they are being. Some racists. Some white supremacists, too, I'm sure. The use of the N word isn't reserved for white supremacists.
Unfortunately for all, that means it gets used way too often. Fortunately for all, that also means there are far less 'invested' white supremacists [at least by the definition used only a few years ago] than some might suggest.
Casual racism is a thing, and lumping everyone into the 'worst case group' doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't help. It doesn't fix things. In fact, misunderstanding the motivation makes it far harder to deal with. Someone being casually racist can be spoken to, and their mind opened. They might not realize how hurtful they're being, or simply may never have been exposed to a different way of thinking. Some don't even consider whatever they're doing racism, or may think getting a rise out of people is funny. This is much different from people fully indoctrinated and/or politically grounded that actively seek racially charged agendas, who are much harder to sway.
Ouija Luigi
Member
I think you are reading too much into that one sentence. I meant no disrespect by it, simply that if you really want to find something, you will, whether it is truly there or not. Human mind is a wondrous thing.
I do disagree with you though. There is a difference, it was claimed that there exists systematic racism in the gaming community. Where as my position was that I had not seen any evidence of it. Therefore it is up for those who make the claim to provide proof, otherwise I am well in my right to hold on to my own perception. (Proof that was given by the way.) I'm sure many people have experiences of abuse, be it racism, sexism or any other form of bigotry, and I would not have any issues in believing it.
But yes, I meant no ill will.
Educate yourself. A considerable body of literature suggests the effects of chronic exposure to prejudice and discrimination is one of the factors that promotes racial health inequalities. Kids these days always offended that some people die a decade earlier purely for being born with darker skin.
Too many immature weirdos in gaming. It's always attracted outsiders, nerds, and the scum that comes with some weirdos like that. Not to say they all are. I was a quiet nerd once too. But I had some quiet nerdy weird friends growing up that were pieces of shit when I look back retroactively, and they are probably racist 4chan kekistaners today, whatever. Cut those idiots out of my life long ago. Good to have open discussions about this kind of stuff so we can agree that behavior isn't condoned or accepted by gamers as a whole. Or at least try to. People who think it's a joke are mistaken, there is no middle ground with this kind of crap. You either denounce it, or accept it. Gotta choose your side.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
This is why I'm so proud to work on Overwatch. Our team knows the right side of history.
I do take exception with your idea that there is little to no quality control in the industry. It's the kind of conclusion drawn from being outside of it, and is not reflective of the actual state of the industry.
I do take exception with your idea that there is little to no quality control in the industry. It's the kind of conclusion drawn from being outside of it, and is not reflective of the actual state of the industry.
Ouija Luigi
Member
Honestly, I've not seen it that much. Maybe it's the choice of games and communities ghat have kept me from most of it. I don't really play any online fps games for example, where this seems to be most prevalent. Apart from some siege, but that was with a fixed group mostly.
But once again, I'm not claiming that racism and bigotry doesn't exist in the gaming community. And I sure as hell am not for normalizing it. Rather my post was about the thread, rise of white supremacy amongst gamers.
Soul of the Beast
Member
I am not saying you are wrong, but the world is bigger than just the USA you know?
It's perfectly fine in here Asia.
It's perfectly fine in here Asia.
I believe you when you talk about where your team's heart is. But heart doesn't necessarily dictate how engineering time is allocated. Specifically, Overwatch released in May 2016. Why is there only now a reporting system for console? It is hard not to conclude that community toxicity has taken a back seat until pretty recently.
Yo South Korea used starcraft as a campaign tool. What are you on about?
I mean...you're heart's in the right place, but dang man, that post from your boss last month was DAMNING.
No lies detected
Soul of the Beast
Member
A campaign for president election, shady, but what's racist about that?
Basically. In America, White feelings will always matter more than non-White lives.
