Phoenix RISING
Banned
Y'all were not around when I was playing DotA from 2003-2011 when racial slurs were pronouns for teammates and opponents, huh?
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It seems like gaming is under seige by white supremacists
- Thread starter Steeped in a Sea of Games
- Start date
What are you trying to tell us?
Good Post, OP
If you haven't had a chance to yet; give Adam Curtis' documentary Hypernormalisation a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fny99f8amM
It does a lot to find the roots of how we ended up with online radicalisation and a President Trump.
Secondly, This essay from polygon does a lot to go into how games advertisings movement from a nebulous audience to focusing entirely on boys and young-men did a lot to stunt the industry on a creative level despite translating to enormous sales: https://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed
I'll throw in a few small conclusions.
Gaming is one of those last great escapist fantasies for young, awkward white boys who are still suffering the trauma of toxic masculinity that is one of those painful holdovers from "the good ol days".
Having a male power fantasy is the last tangential element of being a man's man, where actions speak louder than words, where the world revolves around you.
I think the games managed to get right is that they manage to have a mass appeal by sort of splitting the difference between the accessibility of an action film but with the participation of D&D - but by focusing on that market solely they ended up making it feel too much like a boys club.
Cut to the indie boom, the rise of independent game bloggers, and the proliferation of diversity post the PS2 boys club era - spurred in part to the internet becoming a much more accessible tool for more people. Suddenly, people are starting to say they want to do more with the medium. If films can have romantic comedies and biopics and experimental art pieces, then why can't videogames do the same? Why can't games have something to say the way hip-hop, graffiti, stand up and counterculture media does.
So when Gone Home wins a game of the year award, or Leigh Alexander says gamers are over, or Depression Quest gets coverage alongside Grand Theft Auto V - and combine that with a sort of self-loathing critical culture that a lot of bloggers generate - that stands as an affront to people - a declaration that thing thing that you love or are associated with is wrong and you are wrong by extension.
And it frustrates people, and it gets them afraid - and those are the sort of people that conservatives and white supremacists prey on. A kind of neverland where the days of saying the N-word on the newgrounds forums or crude, juvenile behavior doesn't have to be punished. Where boys can be boys as long as you want.
Combine that with the infantisation of media and "nerd culture" everywhere, suddenly you have an incubator for people in their late 20s to feel like they're still teenagers - warts and all.
How are we going to fix it? Well, things are changing for the better - every non-white, non-male characters as a leading role in a videogame does a lot, as well as moving away from having violence be the main motivation and interaction ingame. Having writers and designers from all walks of life be able to express themselves is important - but it's more important for these big publishers who built their billions on boys only advertising to be responsible and open themselves to a wider audience.
The Wii and DS era felt like the nearest we could of got to games appealing to the widest demographic, and then gamergate happened and now I don't know anymore.
If you haven't had a chance to yet; give Adam Curtis' documentary Hypernormalisation a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fny99f8amM
It does a lot to find the roots of how we ended up with online radicalisation and a President Trump.
Secondly, This essay from polygon does a lot to go into how games advertisings movement from a nebulous audience to focusing entirely on boys and young-men did a lot to stunt the industry on a creative level despite translating to enormous sales: https://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed
I'll throw in a few small conclusions.
Gaming is one of those last great escapist fantasies for young, awkward white boys who are still suffering the trauma of toxic masculinity that is one of those painful holdovers from "the good ol days".
Having a male power fantasy is the last tangential element of being a man's man, where actions speak louder than words, where the world revolves around you.
I think the games managed to get right is that they manage to have a mass appeal by sort of splitting the difference between the accessibility of an action film but with the participation of D&D - but by focusing on that market solely they ended up making it feel too much like a boys club.
Cut to the indie boom, the rise of independent game bloggers, and the proliferation of diversity post the PS2 boys club era - spurred in part to the internet becoming a much more accessible tool for more people. Suddenly, people are starting to say they want to do more with the medium. If films can have romantic comedies and biopics and experimental art pieces, then why can't videogames do the same? Why can't games have something to say the way hip-hop, graffiti, stand up and counterculture media does.
So when Gone Home wins a game of the year award, or Leigh Alexander says gamers are over, or Depression Quest gets coverage alongside Grand Theft Auto V - and combine that with a sort of self-loathing critical culture that a lot of bloggers generate - that stands as an affront to people - a declaration that thing thing that you love or are associated with is wrong and you are wrong by extension.
And it frustrates people, and it gets them afraid - and those are the sort of people that conservatives and white supremacists prey on. A kind of neverland where the days of saying the N-word on the newgrounds forums or crude, juvenile behavior doesn't have to be punished. Where boys can be boys as long as you want.
Combine that with the infantisation of media and "nerd culture" everywhere, suddenly you have an incubator for people in their late 20s to feel like they're still teenagers - warts and all.
How are we going to fix it? Well, things are changing for the better - every non-white, non-male characters as a leading role in a videogame does a lot, as well as moving away from having violence be the main motivation and interaction ingame. Having writers and designers from all walks of life be able to express themselves is important - but it's more important for these big publishers who built their billions on boys only advertising to be responsible and open themselves to a wider audience.
The Wii and DS era felt like the nearest we could of got to games appealing to the widest demographic, and then gamergate happened and now I don't know anymore.
jipewithin
Member
This right here! When I think about it when for example I am shopping groceries and waiting in line it makes me physically ill when I start to think some normal looking person before me might be some alt right racist scum. It makes my blood boil to think about it because racist people who love Trump, hate poc and everyone who isn't straight are everywhere in society. It's just heartbreaking to think about.
No. There has definitely been targeted and methodical radicalization of people who didn't start out holding these views. I've literally seen people going from feeling put off by Anita Sarkeesian and then making the leap to sincerely claiming that feminism is part of a zionist agenda, because of the insidious circles they end up being groomed by.
The old neo nazi organizations have been using the same tried-and-true techniques and psychological tricks as religious cults, to appear "normal" on the outside to reel people in and gradually indoctrinate with the crazy, using gaming culture as the vector.
Let's not forget people like Palmer who literally funded meme-driven hate campaigns in the gaming space.
Ouija Luigi
Member
I'm not going to deny that there are some genuinely bad people in the gaming community, racists, homophobes, bigoted etc. men and women. But I also don't see this perceived threat that the op is about. To me it seems that some people are actively trying to find these elements everywhere, simply because they are so sure that it exists and in turn see it everywhere.
Videogames, like any media, has always been used to propagate all kinds of ideologies, there's nothing new in that. Yes, there are politically charged and racist videogames, but those are so niche that you would have to actively search for them in order to play them. Not to mention that they are anything but subtle with their message and anyone with a half a brain sees what their aim is. So hardly a recruitment tool there.
When it comes to community, I see what you mean but I disagree with the severity of it. The videogame community is big and consists of individuals, with different cultures, creeds and thoughts. This means there has never been an agreed upon set of rules for this community. You play videogames, you are part of the community, that is the only initiation. It means we are free to be who we are and unfortunately this also means that people are free (but not free of consequences) to be abusive and outright bad, but in the end, it always comes down to individuals. I have yet to see that there is any actual organization that actively propagate these evil ideas in the community, or if there is, it's small and insignificant. The kind of people those types of communities attract are pretty much douchebag edgelords to begin with. Most experiences I've had tell me that there are mostly good people in the community who would spot such bullshit a mile away.
And I do draw a distinction between an actual neonazi and some stupid kid yelling slurs in voice chat. The other implies hardlining political and ideological views while the other is just an idiot. Racist idiot perhaps, but just an idiot and is no threat to anyone.
Maybe I've just been lucky when it comes to gaming experiences, but I just don't see any cause for this alarmist attitude.
Videogames, like any media, has always been used to propagate all kinds of ideologies, there's nothing new in that. Yes, there are politically charged and racist videogames, but those are so niche that you would have to actively search for them in order to play them. Not to mention that they are anything but subtle with their message and anyone with a half a brain sees what their aim is. So hardly a recruitment tool there.
When it comes to community, I see what you mean but I disagree with the severity of it. The videogame community is big and consists of individuals, with different cultures, creeds and thoughts. This means there has never been an agreed upon set of rules for this community. You play videogames, you are part of the community, that is the only initiation. It means we are free to be who we are and unfortunately this also means that people are free (but not free of consequences) to be abusive and outright bad, but in the end, it always comes down to individuals. I have yet to see that there is any actual organization that actively propagate these evil ideas in the community, or if there is, it's small and insignificant. The kind of people those types of communities attract are pretty much douchebag edgelords to begin with. Most experiences I've had tell me that there are mostly good people in the community who would spot such bullshit a mile away.
And I do draw a distinction between an actual neonazi and some stupid kid yelling slurs in voice chat. The other implies hardlining political and ideological views while the other is just an idiot. Racist idiot perhaps, but just an idiot and is no threat to anyone.
Maybe I've just been lucky when it comes to gaming experiences, but I just don't see any cause for this alarmist attitude.
GinoFelino
Member
Wait, something is under siege?
I'll get right on it
I'll get right on it
This reads like a major downplay effort :S
Ouija Luigi
Member
Downplay implies intent, so no, I'm not trying to downplay anything because I do not think there is anything to actually downplay. I would never downplay deliberately racist or vile intent. You could try and make the case that I'm oblivious to what's truly going on, but you should present it with sufficient evidence.
rochellepaws
Member
Nice post and some very intriguing thoughts, OP.
The case of 4chan is especially interesting since with Anonymous they forged their identity originally around far left principles such as hacktivism in the name of promoting freedom of information and power to the people instead of corporations as we moved further into the digital age. They promoted clarity of information and objective truth being shown to all and yet now seemingly wish to silence and spin such avenues towards particular interests and support Donald Trump, the sort of narrow minded corporate entity who once represented everything they stood against.
The case of 4chan is especially interesting since with Anonymous they forged their identity originally around far left principles such as hacktivism in the name of promoting freedom of information and power to the people instead of corporations as we moved further into the digital age. They promoted clarity of information and objective truth being shown to all and yet now seemingly wish to silence and spin such avenues towards particular interests and support Donald Trump, the sort of narrow minded corporate entity who once represented everything they stood against.
Gaming has been a Safe Space for bigots of all stripes for a long time. The big game publishers have spent decades at best ignoring the problem and at worst tacitly endorsing these horrific views.
The recent rise of Xenophobia, racism and White Supremacy in the UK and US has just pushed these views further into the mainstream, and emboldened their existing proponents.
Gaming isn't under siege by White Supremacists any more than the US is. White Supremacy is simply a foundational aspect of both, it's baked in.
The recent rise of Xenophobia, racism and White Supremacy in the UK and US has just pushed these views further into the mainstream, and emboldened their existing proponents.
Gaming isn't under siege by White Supremacists any more than the US is. White Supremacy is simply a foundational aspect of both, it's baked in.
ClosingADoor
Member
I don't know if it is really a targeted approach from those groups, or if it just developed more naturally. Single, young men who are angry at the world are pretty much an easy group to convert to radical ideas. And with white men, we see that in the form of nazism and white supremacy. The anonymous nature of gaming and the culture of "trolling" surrounding it makes it so people get away with some pretty terrible stuff. Either you can't do anything about it or they get back at you that it is "trolling" or "a joke" and you shouldn't get upset easily.
We have also seen a period where sexism in the gaming industry was a major thing in the news for a while. And a lot of young men seemed to feel attacked by that. In turn they were welcomed with open arms by alt-right figures who told them they were not wrong, the people talking about the problem were. Same now with Youtubers and the advertising developments after The Wall Street Journal did their reports.
And by now those alt-right figures have developed their following in this industry. And anyone who speaks out of line gets attacked for it. You see it at the Steam forums, on Twitter, even here on NeoGAF plenty of people seem willing to log in on their throwaway accounts to defend someone using racial slurs. And of course it gets worse sometimes when those threats go into real life as we have seen happening.
Then how do we solve this? I do think that gaming publishers and platform holders have a major role to play here. Not even by constantly going "racism is bad" or "sexism is bad" and making statements. While appreciated, that would just cause a lot of online attacks and nothing will change.
What they do not to do is actually crack down on people in their games and on their platforms. There needs to be oversight. All these companies have lines in their user agreements about behavior that is not tolerated, and yet they are not willing to go on mass banning sprees or stop communication from those people. What needs to happen is that they make systems where people crossing the line are just stopped from being able to communicate. Block their voice chat, then throw everyone without voice chat in the same games so it doesn't impact others. Block their messaging abilities. And by doing this create a better environment where people actually want to go again and that is not taken over by assholes.
We have also seen a period where sexism in the gaming industry was a major thing in the news for a while. And a lot of young men seemed to feel attacked by that. In turn they were welcomed with open arms by alt-right figures who told them they were not wrong, the people talking about the problem were. Same now with Youtubers and the advertising developments after The Wall Street Journal did their reports.
And by now those alt-right figures have developed their following in this industry. And anyone who speaks out of line gets attacked for it. You see it at the Steam forums, on Twitter, even here on NeoGAF plenty of people seem willing to log in on their throwaway accounts to defend someone using racial slurs. And of course it gets worse sometimes when those threats go into real life as we have seen happening.
Then how do we solve this? I do think that gaming publishers and platform holders have a major role to play here. Not even by constantly going "racism is bad" or "sexism is bad" and making statements. While appreciated, that would just cause a lot of online attacks and nothing will change.
What they do not to do is actually crack down on people in their games and on their platforms. There needs to be oversight. All these companies have lines in their user agreements about behavior that is not tolerated, and yet they are not willing to go on mass banning sprees or stop communication from those people. What needs to happen is that they make systems where people crossing the line are just stopped from being able to communicate. Block their voice chat, then throw everyone without voice chat in the same games so it doesn't impact others. Block their messaging abilities. And by doing this create a better environment where people actually want to go again and that is not taken over by assholes.
Silent Chief
Member
Gaming is still a lot less white than Hollywood.
Agree that this is a great post and as far as I am concerned, Hypernormalisation is required viewing for a number of reasons of which this issue is certainly a part.
I continue to be shocked and amazed at the lengths to which groups are using elements of gaming and the surrounding culture to further their agenda. I think there is indisputable causal evidence that links the actions of various groups to this sort of hijack. Just looking at the front page on here over the last few weeks we have seen a number of issues relating to issues of alt-right values mingled with stories of co-ordinated backlashes that seem to be disguised as customers expressing their opinion but are clear, political statements.
I wish I knew what the solution was to these sorts of responses. I think in disparate ways we are tackling this (albeit inefficiently). Whether it be through reporting systems, developers and publishers standing up and taking a stance or message boards such as this we are collectively pushing intolerable views to the margins. I think perhaps the best stance is to transpose online views into everyday actions and stand-up for those that find themselves being targets for hate groups. I hope at the very least, whilst we disagree on the methods by which we solve this, we can all say we believe that these views are categorically wrong and agree on the destination we are trying to reach.
This is an interesting topic. Although it might help ease your concerns to know that my latest round of job interviews involved diversity officers and people talking about politics and general attitudes regarding equality.
It was pretty refreshing really, and I think if more places would act in this way perhaps we can filter out the racism and sexism before they cause a problem.
It was pretty refreshing really, and I think if more places would act in this way perhaps we can filter out the racism and sexism before they cause a problem.
I think this is a particularly good way of handling the topic in a wider, societal context.
Shake Appeal
Member
No, they just didn't know how loud they could be without censure.
Prime crotch
Banned
nerd pastimes are a great breeding ground for marginal ideas to society, add that to a community with an already shaky concept of masculinity and whiteness and one day you wake up and everyone's playing around being an ironic (not-ironic in actuality) Nazi
As usual, the biggest offenders are the parties that stand right in the middle. Our issue isn't with the far right, they're far too deep into it, we should focus our energy on the people in the middle that are more dangerous (IMO).
- "Racism is not a gaming problem, it's an internet problem"
That's a deflection that solves absolutely nothing, people should stop bringing that up, it has been proven many times that gaming is a breeding ground for white supremacists. And even if we ignore that little fact, stop deflecting, deflecting helps nobody.
- Most "big" Youtubers and Gaming websites that said absolutely nothing about Gamergate (I won't say Twitch streamers because it's pretty clear that most of them aren't "moderates" but far right racists anyway).
We've heard from Kotaku and Polygon, but what about IGN, Gamespot, GameInformer...etc. And from the Youtube side, why haven't Rooster Teeth and Machinima spoken about it?
- The "moderates" that want to speak with both sides.
One side is the white supremacists, stop equating their arguments to the people that are against them, these "moderates" are what gives them legitimacy, that's why I think they're more dangerous than the far right.
- The gaming studios that didn't say a single thing about Gamergate.
I've heard from many individual developers even at high ranking positions speak against Gamergate, but why haven't the studios themselves issued a statement?
- "Racism is not a gaming problem, it's an internet problem"
That's a deflection that solves absolutely nothing, people should stop bringing that up, it has been proven many times that gaming is a breeding ground for white supremacists. And even if we ignore that little fact, stop deflecting, deflecting helps nobody.
- Most "big" Youtubers and Gaming websites that said absolutely nothing about Gamergate (I won't say Twitch streamers because it's pretty clear that most of them aren't "moderates" but far right racists anyway).
We've heard from Kotaku and Polygon, but what about IGN, Gamespot, GameInformer...etc. And from the Youtube side, why haven't Rooster Teeth and Machinima spoken about it?
- The "moderates" that want to speak with both sides.
One side is the white supremacists, stop equating their arguments to the people that are against them, these "moderates" are what gives them legitimacy, that's why I think they're more dangerous than the far right.
- The gaming studios that didn't say a single thing about Gamergate.
I've heard from many individual developers even at high ranking positions speak against Gamergate, but why haven't the studios themselves issued a statement?
Relevant to the calls for companies to be better at policing their communities:
Blizzard is complaining about having to spend time implementing basic reporting features in Overwatch.
Overwatch is a PvP game, Blizzard. Your community is your game. Fixing the community is not "slowing down" development of Overwatch features. It is working on Overwatch's most important "feature". Your rad new waifu hero is not more important than shutting down racist assholes.
Blizzard is complaining about having to spend time implementing basic reporting features in Overwatch.
Overwatch is a PvP game, Blizzard. Your community is your game. Fixing the community is not "slowing down" development of Overwatch features. It is working on Overwatch's most important "feature". Your rad new waifu hero is not more important than shutting down racist assholes.
Arc Christelle
Member
Beat me to it.
What Anonymous are you talking about? There might be some outliers since Anon is not centralized, anyone can say they're Anon, but as a whole, they're not Trump supporters. A quick glance at their main Twitter account shows all kinds of anti-Trump and anti-racism tweets.
Also, while I know 4chan and Anon kind of go hand and hand, you can't lump every 4channer together, especially 4chan from around when Anon got started. Back around then, 4chan was basically Something Awful's little brother that grew up to be bigger. SA is a heavily moderated and left leaning forum, much like GAF. I was still active on SA forums when Anon was getting started with their anti-Scientology movement, and to me, Anon seemed much more of Something Awful creation but operated on 4chan due to the anonymity.
I mean...here you go.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135783202&postcount=5
You either don't care or you haven't been paying attention.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You basically just denied the existence of gamergate.
Foxy the Fox
Member
He is giving his viewpoint on the matter. A very interesting and empathic viewpoint I must say.
4ch (mostly /b/ and /pol/) is usually against what's cool, in the 00 the right was cool so they were left, nowadays the left is cool so they are right.
By the end of the day they just like to go against the flow .
That racists have always been in the hobby.
Don't be obtuse.
MysteryQuesadilla
Member
The OP isn't wrong. For example, white supremacist dirtbags at the Daily Stormer were intentionally making stories related to GG to garner clicks and an audience that may not have sought them out otherwise to clearly influence the young, angry, white male audience that spends a lot of time on games.
This is an important point. Morals and conscience really don't work in the context of business decisions, or even government decisions that interrupt the status quo. As much as this break's a lot of people's impressions of things like karma and justice, a lot of times faceless entities like companies and governments have to be FORCED into doing the right thing. They'll only do it if it's made very, very clear to them that it'll be less of a headache or hit to their bottom line to make the change than to keep on doing things the way they're doing it.
As far as I'm aware there hasn't been much of a public effort to really rake companies over the coals for things like toxic online voice chat. I mean gamers can say some pretty horrible things online that would get most people fired and likely ostracized to some degree, but in gaming you're frequently treated as the weird one because you're "too sensitive, it's just words, you [insert slur here]". Much as I hate to say it I don't think gamers as a whole are very good at saying "no" to buying a hot new thing they were looking forward to, and that makes large-scale punitive measures against gaming companies difficult.
To add, I think it is important that game developers and publishers take it upon themselves to influence the accepted behavior in the communities that surround our games. Which is to say, we need to figure out how to make publishers see their community as impacting their profits. If it can be made clear that having a less toxic, less hostile, community is better for sales then it becomes the best interest of developers to ensure this.
The poster said he/she doesn't think there's anything to downplay. That doesn't sound particularly empathic to me.
Ouija Luigi
Member
I'm not denying gamergate. This thread was about white supremacy and to my knowledge gamergate had nothing to do with that. And furthermore, is it an organized thing? Other than a shitty hashtag? Once again, not to my knowledge. So my original point still stands.
Glad you find it interesting. Things should be open to discussion no matter how difficult they might be, that's what I think anyway.
Shadowhelper
Banned
Racist have exited in gaming for a while, but gaming becoming an anti non white, anti women place where organised white supremacists have decided to wage battle is a new thing. Obviously gamergate was a watershed moment for this.
I mean you didn't have neo nazis like Milos Yanoupolis paying attention the gaming world at all, but his brand of racists were all up in that.
I mean you didn't have neo nazis like Milos Yanoupolis paying attention the gaming world at all, but his brand of racists were all up in that.
This is what you said:
That statement logically includes gamergate. You were not simply talking about white supremacy.
Slightly different question: has much changed after the Feminist Frequency videos, especially in a positive way? I know some devs have made some changes here and there, I think the CoD WW2 dev coming right out and saying "yeah, you'll be play on the Axis side as black people, fuck historical accuracy" was a pretty good move that might not have happened without the FemFreq videos and other things existing, but that said outside of the odd move like that one I don't think there's been much of a positive overall change. Kudos to the various Gamergate victims for persevering through all this, I almost certainly would have given the fuck up once the death and rape threats started flying around and even if I was still fighting the good fight I'd probably be massively discouraged at the relative lack of progress (at least from what I can tell, I'd be very very happy to be wrong about that).
Foldedpencil
Banned
I agree that gaming seems to be a popular medium for expressing racism, but I don't think that recruitment in organized in a systematic way like this. Perhaps in naive.
I fully believe gaming communities have tolerated (if not welcomed) racists for decades, but I've yet to really see evidence of an organized and funded movement with leadership taking these steps. Got any examples? Gamergate was certainly a thing, but it looked more like an idiotic conspiracy theory that like-minded morons rallied around.
Name the people in this thread that you believe are effectively hallucinating their experiences of bigotry. Because that is your argument here: that a prior surity of belief is leading to false perceptions.
Foldedpencil
Banned
What do you mean by "this kind of thread"?
Threads that call out bigotry in gaming community.
Perhaps we like these topics.
Ouija Luigi
Member
Yes I did, but I also said.:
Yes gamergate happened, but I refuse to acknowledge it as a movement that actively seeks converts for an ideology. Sure some bad people hid behind a hashtag and thought they were allowed to be assholes (some definitely crossing the border to downright evil), but I still think it was a question of individuals rather than some nefarious group hellbent to taking over the gaming commmunity.
My point being, I do not think we are under attack as a community. Maybe I just have faith in people, unfounded or not.
So minorities who minimally post, possibly because they feel unwelcome in gaming communities, tend to post in threads about minorities feeling unwelcome in gaming communities, while you make them feel unwelcome?
This is some serious revisionist bullshit, people fucking hated Bush and kept saying he should be locked up for war crimes.
If anything, it attracts contrarians who want to rage against the system, but no one thought the right was cool in the 00's. They were always racist assholes on 4chan though, no contesting that.
What the fuck are you talking about. I'm talking about people that only come here to claim that gaming isn't affected by racism. Get your shit together.
MysteryQuesadilla
Member
There was most definitely attempts to use GG by white supremacist groups through social media to attract disgruntled, young white males by essentially writing pieces that appealed to their horrible opinions.