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[Mael]

and people wonder why gaming has a shit reputation?
It's because it's a medium where racist, sexist behavior is not only expected but encouraged from top to bottom.
From all the talk about exclusivity, for the publishers it's lipservice till they get your cash then you're on your own.
There's pockets here and there where this behavior is not acceptable but they're far and few.

Liberals have had far more overbearing control over games where it actually matters though. Trolls have no real power that can really compare.

You could say that the PC outrage culture is the worst thing about the community while you're at it?

 

[admiraltaftbar]

They've also infiltrated the Eating Bread and Drinking Water spaces as well. Shit is loco.

Wow how edgy and clever you are. I'm sorry other people care about things that they see as social issues.

 

[Imbarkus]

The only thing that has really changed is the technology.

Not the people, who consisted of racists and haters and all the same types throughout recorded history.

Not the tactics, which still involve the same disinformation, isolation, and pressure of peers that have always been used.

But since we live in a technopoly we implicitly trust and deploy online technologies without question, technologies that fundamentally change the way we communicate: stripping the reciprocal information of a person's flinch and thus furthering the lack of consequences to being an asshole online, for example. "Game experience may change with online play" now means you may randomly have your kid recruited by some alt-right whackjobs.

Now we are in an era where sock puppets are financed by overseas white supremacists and we don't even know it, because we implicitly trust message board technologies like reddit and facebook that obfuscate and hide real identity and intentions. Terror is spread as public and journalistic figures are forced to shadow dance with threatening accounts that may or may not be 13 year olds who don't know any better, may or may not be nonhuman parts of some politically funded bot empire, or may or may not be an actual psychopath sending a real threat.

Imagine if we deployed drugs the same way we do communication technologies? Am I suggesting some sort of regulation? How would that work?

It wouldn't. The only thing that will fix things is a cultural change, away from fascination with communication technologies that have a lot of whiz-bang, but play the gimmick fo stripping away (rather than including) information--proving that 140 characters at the hands of a madman president is enough to make everyone insane. Twitter and Facebook and Google, our biggest "media companies" now, have no viewpoint at all. They are rodeo masters, hosting the craziness... they are companies that don't generate revenue in any way other than venture capitol... or entirely disrupting existing media economies, holding eyeballs hostage via physchographic manipulation, and selling them to overseas concerns without even knowing it.

Meanwhile the actual press of financial crushing disparity, so much enabled and also obfuscated by technology, has in the U.S. forced both parents away from the home and to work for nearly every sector of the economy but the top. And the acceleration of the technology and its changes and revisions outpaces that capability and comfort level of your average parent to keep up and monitor and communicate with their kid about what's going on.

And so, in isolation, the shadows move in on the kids...

...who are actually not stupid, quite angry, and tired of hearing about how we will bring about justice by focusing on their privilege--as opposed to the unseen and far more obscene privilege of the highly-efficient robber-barons of the 21st century who will happily make everyone outside of their own family a serf regardless of race, gender, or political leaning.

 

[conman]

The only thing "new" is that now white people are seeing the white supremacy that the rest of us have been dealing with our whole lives. I long ago gave up playing competitive multiplayer games for that reason alone. Competitive online gaming has been dominated by sexist, racist, homophobes for as long as online gaming has existed. I don't think the industry has any interest in changing that, or if they do, they've long since given up trying to do anything about it since publishers don't want to kill their cash cows.

But it's at least a small silver lining if some of you are now seeing those communities for what they often are.

 

[Mesoian]

Eh. If microsoft or sony straight up ban you account if your caught being a shit it would disappear quick.

So Microsoft used to. One of the great catharses I used to have was when they would make the appeals forum for xbox live public, so people could go in, state their grievances, and show the world that they were spouting hateful rhetoric in public.

That's gone now though.

 

[farmerboy]

Sounds like trash talking to me.

Well it is. Immature rantings of some idiot trying to be a "hero" emboldened by anonymity. Its no excuse, but I'm not sure how we can get rid of it. Wouldn't surprise me if he thinks he's not racist, and maybe he isn't in real life. But getting to say that shit online is some sort of "release" or fantasy. Total non excuse though.

Either way its bullshit. I really don't think you can stop it though, except on a personal level like, muting, ignore list and reporting. Which you should most definitely do.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Like, real talk, the number one thing we need to do, enmasse, is actually call it a problem. The last two days alone are enough to see that there's a very large percentage of the community who are willing to handwave off this behavior because they, at best, don't care, and at worst, defend it because they wish to do it themselves. They are constantly saying it's not a problem because most of the shit being spouted doesn't apply to them.

Like seriously, how many times in that PWP thread are people like, "but why can't I say the word nigger? I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!"

I agree it is a massive problem and For example (since it's the most recent thing) pdp should have face more consequences. That's my personal believes. But I was shocked to learn JonTron pretty much got away without much happening to him (from what I heard in that PDP thread). Personally I do care. But there's not much I can do as long as their fanbase continues to refuse to listen or think about it.

 

[Silvergun-Blue]

The gaming community has always had a lot of people that fit into the obnoxious teenage edgelord category, regardless of their physical age.
Racial politics is a hot topic right now, so this particular group of gamers is jumping in with both feet in an attempt to be as abrasive as possible.
Any attempt to show sympathy or understanding towards any other group, be it women, ethnic minorities, different sexualities or non-binary gender identities will be met with scorn, and they'll go out their way to "fight" it.

I think the main reason gaming in particular is susceptible is because gaming is very closely tied to the rise of the internet.
Before the internet, these people would be ejected from social groups and shut out. The internet not only allows them to group together, but to reach out and have an effect on the very people that rejected them in the first place.
They can now get a reaction from people and face zero consequences.

And of course there's the undeniable fact that the gaming industry very heavily catered towards young adolescent males or decades now. Sexualization of women and fetishization of military violence (often against ethnic groups/foreigners) have been the standard for years.

 

[m29a]

What about filter through text chat in all online games (and sites like twitch...)? Put in all the bullshit these people say, and even put in ways so they can't bypass it. And when the system catches people doing it, mute/ban them automatically. I don't know how you solve voice chat though, maybe sometime in the future there can be ways to do the same type of concept. Obviously this is just one part of the issue, but it's an immediate way to punish them, regarding online interaction.

 

[Matty77]

Put me down on the "always been here" side.

What has changed (and I say this as a white man) is we are finally getting to a point where the lack of equality and diversity can't be hidden in the Information Age that other groups are using effectively also and fighting back so first time white men are seeing a future where they are not top dog automatically so it's more them running into the arms of WS which gets to be more open because of the White House.

The sad fact is it's not a small minority. I wanted to believe that too but I now get that those of us who are white straight males and also support diversity and equality across the table are the minority.

And don't forget the racism and hate in liberal spaces too such as some Bernie people or TERF's for instance.

This has to do with white people being scared as a whole not games or recruitment efforts.

 

[Baraka Obama]

It's always been like this and honestly it's gotten better for me at least cause back in the day I would get called Mexican, spic, nigger, porch monkey, etc now it's just retard or asshole. Obviously anecdotal but I feel like this kinda stuff affects me quite a bit. Sexism is far worse from what I've noticed.

 

[Dane_gerClose]

The sad fact is it's not a small minority. I wanted to believe that too but I now get that those of us who are white straight males and also support diversity and equality across the table are the minority.

I remember when I was still a naive teenager that I believed this with all I could. As I got older and realized how wrong I was, I was pretty heartbroken.

 

[Dane_gerClose]

It's always been like this and honestly it's gotten better for me at least cause back in the day I would get called Mexican, spic, nigger, porch monkey, etc now it's just retard or asshole. Obviously anecdotal but I feel like this kinda stuff affects me quite a bit. Sexism is far worse from what I've noticed.

While it is anecdotal, I'm still somewhat happy it got a bit better for you.

 

[Shredderi]

Growing up here in Finland where there was extremely little of other ethniticies around, I never saw any of this in my gaming circles, because there wasn't black folk around where I lived so no one really talked about black folk. It really was the dawn of the internet that opened my eyes somewhat. I kind of get it when people who actually aren't racist gamers get a bit defensive in their need to tell everyone that they aren't like that, because it's pretty heart breaking to think that this one thing that I really went into (gaming) in life is a huge nest for the scumbags I know I don't talk about games with people who I'm pretty sure don't play games.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

They've also infiltrated the Eating Bread and Drinking Water spaces as well. Shit is loco.

Oh, it's you

 

[the210]

and people wonder why gaming has a shit reputation?
It's because it's a medium where racist, sexist behavior is not only expected but encouraged from top to bottom.
From all the talk about exclusivity, for the publishers it's lipservice till they get your cash then you're on your own.
There's pockets here and there where this behavior is not acceptable but they're far and few.



You could say that the PC outrage culture is the worst thing about the community while you're at it?

I dont think you could be more wrong. Average people do not associate gaming with most of the stuff you see posted here on GAF. They may see it as childish or a waist of time but they aren't overly invested in so called gaming culture. The average person plays games for a bit of fun and will never be aware of any of the dark stuff going on.

 

[gogosox82]

I think they have always been there frankly. The industry just doesn't take it seriously and allowed these kinds of attitudes to fester for years until its blown up now into a monster than they cannot control. If the industry were to actually take this seriously and actually crackdown on anyone using racist/sexist/homophobic/xenophobic language, then I think a lot of the problems would disappear but I think it might be too late at this point. Its one of the reasons gaming is looking upon so poorly in general. Every time you hear something gaming related, its always something negative like harassing women and calling someone a nigger.

 

[Flux]

"You know GamerGate, we really are the white supremacy."

By recent actions like Bungee and Destiny 2 I'm not surprised anymore, just ashamed.

 

[nelo_inc]

They didn't infiltrate anything, they've been there all along.

The current social and political climates just gave them an open door to share their racism with the world without much perceived consequence.

This post sums it up, exactly what i think.
My fear is that it will only get worst in many aspects of our social space.

 

[Kill3r7]

I dont think you could be more wrong. Average people do not associate gaming with most of the stuff you see posted here on GAF. They may see it as childish or a waist of time but they aren't overly invested in so called gaming culture. The average person plays games for a bit of fun and will never be aware of any of the dark stuff going on.

Correct, the general public has little to no clue about gamergate and gaming culture but unfortunately you can say that about most things.

 

[Mael]

I dont think you could be more wrong. Average people do not associate gaming with most of the stuff you see posted here on GAF. They may see it as childish or a waist of time but they aren't overly invested in so called gaming culture. The average person plays games for a bit of fun and will never be aware of any of the dark stuff going on.

You misunderstand.
I'm talking about the gaming culture, the thing that shows like TBBT makes fun of.
Consuming games like they're all mobile waste of time is perfectly mainstream and was for quite some time now.
What is known as gaming culture outside gaming is seen through the lens of the PDP and Jontron of the world.
If you go beyond the transactional view of the gaming industry, you're pretty quickly barraged with the worst of the worst gaming has to offer.
This industry is not inclusive unlike what the corp heads would tell you at e3 trying to sell you their next wave of wares.
Your money is appreciated but that's where the inclusivity stops.

 

[Gator86]

They didn't infiltrate anything, they've been there all along.

The current social and political climates just gave them an open door to share their racism with the world without much perceived consequence.

Basically. Anyone not white has been under siege since America was founded.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

They didn't infiltrate anything, they've been there all along.

The current social and political climates just gave them an open door to share their racism with the world without much perceived consequence.

Yes, the troll has just come out from under the bridge. Been there the whole time, just out of view.

 

[Mael]

Basically. Anyone not white has been under siege since America was founded.

That goes way beyond America, if you think the western countries are that far ahead you don't look hard enough.

 

[120v]

it's always been that way (at least since the advent of online gaming, in my experience). only now there's a dialogue and their voice is "louder" given the political climate

at least people are talking about it and it's not just dusted under the rug anymore. i'd like to think people will start to think twice about using anonymity as a free pass and that'll bleed into the overall culture

 

[Ozigizo]

Liberals have had far more overbearing control over games where it actually matters though. Trolls have no real power that can really compare.

Both sides(TM) achieved!

 

[thumb]

I remember when I was still a naive teenager that I believed this with all I could. As I got older and realized how wrong I was, I was pretty heartbroken.

Add me to the list of people who initially underestimated the presence of bigots and racists. The last couple years as a gaming enthusiast have been pretty depressing. The rise and enduring presence of gamergate have truly soured how I feel about the industry and about many of the communities within it.

 

[IamDodongo]

It's why now is the time more than ever to call out racist pieces of shit in gaming. That shit cannot be tolerated.

Yep.

I'm tired of them skanking up my online experience.

 

[Kanashimi]

The first few replies pretty much hit the nail on the head. They haven't attracted "new" people like that, they've just been there all along. As all sides push, fight, and wish more violence on each other they just get louder.

You could say this about everything. Anime, games, working out, sewing... In fact, you could simplify you're entire argument by recognizing that everyone is racist, it's just how much are they. People aren't black and white, they're pretty grey.

 

[HCgamer]

The majority of my online experiences have been with nintendo products going back to picross ds and mario kart ds to today with mario kart 8 deluxe and splatoon 2 so thankful I have not confronted this.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

They didn't infiltrate anything, they've been there all along.

The current social and political climates just gave them an open door to share their racism with the world without much perceived consequence.

and people wonder why gaming has a shit reputation?
It's because it's a medium where racist, sexist behavior is not only expected but encouraged from top to bottom.
From all the talk about exclusivity, for the publishers it's lipservice till they get your cash then you're on your own.
There's pockets here and there where this behavior is not acceptable but they're far and few.


You could say that the PC outrage culture is the worst thing about the community while you're at it?

Racists/neo nazis/sexists/homophobes (i.e, rejects of society, i.e. subhumans, i.e. the trash that even the landfills won't accept) are present in the real world, therefore, they are present in the digital world. The two worlds are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Basketball]

There has always been bad apples
and probably always will be

I remember the days of xbox live.
It's not just games

people are people

 

[Mael]

Racists/neo nazis/sexists/homophobes (i.e, rejects of society, i.e. subhumans, i.e. the trash that even the landfills won't accept) are present in the real world, therefore, they are present in the digital world. The two worlds are not mutually exclusive.

Yep but they're in the landfills of the world.
by comparison, they have premium seats in the gaming sphere.

 

[Kyzer]

Theres always been a depressing overlap and gamergate was a major wake up call for those who didnt see it coming

 

[Foxy the Fox]

how the alt-right and white supremacy in general has been trying (rather successfully it seems) to infiltrate all levels of gaming.

Summer child, did you played online on the 90's?

All kind of people were on gaming since the beginning, specially with that "boys club" push that the companies did in mid 80's until recently.

Don't make it like it is an invasion of some kind.

 

[ItsTheNew]

Hasn't gaming's audience been majority white since it's inception? I could see with more Game developers catering away from that taste could leave people angered.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Yep but they're in the landfills of the world.
by comparison, they have premium seats in the gaming sphere.

Trust me, they have premium seats elsewhere. . . Do you know who the President of the United States is?

 

[sturgboski]

"You know GamerGate, we really are the white supremacy."

By recent actions like Bungee and Destiny 2 I'm not surprised anymore, just ashamed.

That white supremacists art got through or Bungie acknowledged and it's being patched out in the next patch? I mean it's no excuse but I think they outsourced that stuff to other studios and thus relied on those studios. Again, not an excuse. On the flip side, I think it's amazing the sleuths on the internet figured this all out. I mean I'm not up on all the symbolism so I would have never noticed, but I think kudos are deserved to those who found it out and (once it happens) Bungie for fixing this. On the flip side it would also be nice to see the artist who put it in get sent packing.

As for this topic as a whole: I think it's kind of being an "it's always been there." I think what has happened is that either as people have gotten older or just a general shift in worldview, more and more of this behavior has been acknowledged as toxic. However the GamerGate shit brought to light that as a community, we have not changed as we would all have liked, rather there is a very vocal sect who is terrible and is continued to be supported (and especially YouTubers, whether outwardly terrible or "both sides amirite" terrible). And those folks are empowered by the white supremacist in chief and the Republicans who keep him in power.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Hasn't gaming's audience been majority white since it's inception? I could see with more Game developers catering away from that taste could leave people angered.

Japan used to be the largest market for console gaming.

 

[MTC100]

This issue seems to be blown out of proportion. Yes there are scumbags but there are scumbags everywhere, so why would gaming be the exception.

 

[malboroking]

Liberals have had far more overbearing control over games where it actually matters though. Trolls have no real power that can really compare.

This is a stupid opinion and you should feel bad for airing it. Not to mention it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Brakke]

The real red pill is discovering there were villains among us all along.

 

[Mael]

Trust me, they have premium seats elsewhere. . . Do you know who the President of the United States is?

The difference is that at least they weren't that open about it till recently irl (unless you lived in one of these funny countries where neonazis were getting seats at parliaments).
The difference is that you can mostly ignore them irl (look at how many do just that excusing the behavior of the President).

 

[JohnMatrix]

It also ties in with that red pill quack philosophy which appeals to a lot of young gamers

Stereotypical gamer with limited social interactions --> get red pilled, become a big tough guy, blame women for your problems, mock progressives --> logical end to that is racism and misogyny

A lot of nerds who become vocally interested in bodybuilding are some of the worst people around

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Hasn't gaming's audience been majority white since it's inception? I could see with more Game developers catering away from that taste could leave people angered.

The difference is that at least they weren't that open about it till recently irl (unless you lived in one of these funny countries where neonazis were getting seats at parliaments).
The difference is that you can mostly ignore them irl (look at how many do just that excusing the behavior of the President).

You can ignore them in gaming. Just don't go online. I don't. And the klan marches regularly down south, even before Trump took office.

 

[RocBase]

This is a key point. The libertarian dudebro streak in the gaming and tech industry created some of the necessary conditions for this situation.

Absolutely. The other day there was some obtuse moron who was mad at folks for taking a stand against PDP. Legit called them childish for...distancing themselves from him and his irresponsibly childish behavior. Basically was more concerned about the privilege to knowingly act out like a prat without fear of the backlash.

Couldn't make this shit up if I tried.

 

[thumb]

Also, I want to mention a related issue that frequently crops up when trying to talk to gamers who might have some sexist or racist leanings, or who are simply fine with a status quo that largely excludes women and POC. Even when such people are willing to hear you out,

...there's often no shared foundation for productive communication.

For example, huge portions of threads on NeoGAF have been spent trying to explain to people why criticism is not censorship, why asking for diversity does not coerce artists, and why developers should at least consider whether they are unintentionally reinforcing negative group stereotypes.

In many cases that I've seen, a shared understanding about these basic issues cannot be reached. This leaves one side convinced that they are dealing with coercive censors.

It's frustrating and depressing.

 

[Mael]

You can ignore them in gaming. Just don't go online. I don't. And the klan marches regularly down south, even before Trump took office.

The gaming equivalent is more like the Klan is marching in all the biggest tourist attractions.
Try to organize a white supremacy march in front of the Eiffel Tower or in Time Square.
That's gaming the way it is/was for decades.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

The gaming equivalent is more like the Klan is marching in all the biggest tourist attractions.
Try to organize a white supremacy march in front of the Eiffel Tower or in Time Square.
That's gaming the way it is/was for decades.

Well they need permits for that, and probably couldn't get them for Time Square. They (the Klan) have marched on state capitals though. Same for Fred Phelps.

I'm not familiar with most of Europe's hate groups, though.

 

[Mael]

Well they need permits for that, and probably couldn't get them for Time Square. They (the Klan) have marched on state capitals though. Same for Fred Phelps.

I'm not familiar with most of Europe's hate groups, though.

They march all right but they're viewed in pretty much the same way people viewed the Charlotteville one after Heather Heyer died.
I guess the correct analogy wouldn't be a march but more like they have permanent stand beside all the biggest monuments and sometime even manage them.