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Itagaki talks about DOA
- Thread starter rockman zx
- Start date
Itagaki is being very mean spirited about this. I own all the DOA's back from the first on PS1(i haven't owned a saturn in many years)
But the fact of the matter is, outside of a few minor pitfalls(the weaker level design, very weak backround graphics, bad IQ in comparison to DOA4 ect) DOA5 was a triumphant return for the series that was out of commission for 7 years.
And Ninja Gaiden. I won't mince words. Ninja Gaiden 3 vanilla was a failure.
But Razor's edge is a very good step in the right direction on righting the ship, even if its still shy of the original game and Ninja Gaiden 2's combat depth and design.
They took an unfun game that was just a chore to play with hardly any redeeming points, and turned it into an enjoyable action game that's packed with features. I won't consider it a success on the same level as the turnaround from FF14 1.0 to ARR situation, but it was a very much needed improvement that made the game worth something.
I think Itagaki is still living in an age where realities of the modern marketplace don't exist. And i guess it makes sense since he has not shipped a game since NG2.
But the fact of the matter is, outside of a few minor pitfalls(the weaker level design, very weak backround graphics, bad IQ in comparison to DOA4 ect) DOA5 was a triumphant return for the series that was out of commission for 7 years.
And Ninja Gaiden. I won't mince words. Ninja Gaiden 3 vanilla was a failure.
But Razor's edge is a very good step in the right direction on righting the ship, even if its still shy of the original game and Ninja Gaiden 2's combat depth and design.
They took an unfun game that was just a chore to play with hardly any redeeming points, and turned it into an enjoyable action game that's packed with features. I won't consider it a success on the same level as the turnaround from FF14 1.0 to ARR situation, but it was a very much needed improvement that made the game worth something.
I think Itagaki is still living in an age where realities of the modern marketplace don't exist. And i guess it makes sense since he has not shipped a game since NG2.
Banana Aeon
Member
DoA4 is one of the worst fighting games that I have ever seen, and I'm speaking as a DoA fan. It is nearly completely unplayable at higher, and casual levels.
As said before, Itagaki leaving was the best thing to happen to DOA. DOA5's gameplay is so much better than the previous titles it's not even funny, and the most important part of the visuals (the characters) received a phenomenal upgrade. From what he's saying here it seems like he was the reason was stagnating so hard.
Unfortunately, his departure definitely hurt Ninja Gaiden. I worry about the future of that series.
Unfortunately, his departure definitely hurt Ninja Gaiden. I worry about the future of that series.
Angelus Errare
Banned
This.
I really liked the stages in DOA4...they were bright and colorful, full of interactable objects like the lettuce stand stage, where if you kicked someone into a fruit stand, hundreds of individual apples and other fruits would come out, and tumble down the street(cause the level was on an angle).
You had to look out for animals in the jungle stages that would come out from each side of the arena and knock you around. You weren't just kicking people into walls or off a single platform. You were smashing them into cars on the street, throwing them down stairs with special throws, knocking them through windows ect.
The level design and IQ was what i really liked about the game.
Of course, it wasn't perfect. The "doll face' effect was still there on the characters which gave them a horrible appearance after 3 straight games with the same design. Not only that, but all the bodies of the females were also the same, they never had individual elements to them that proved distinctive.
The costumes were hardly there. It was such a downgrade coming from Dead or Alive Ultimate 2's 15+ costumes to DOA4, where there are barely 6 or 7 costumes a character with no option to get anymore.
And who could forget, the actual game balance. Many controllers have been broken because of what a broken POS Alpha is, and in general, many of the fights are just cheap and too difficult to complete. You spend tens of retries just trying to beat a single enemy.
When DOA6 comes out, i hope Hayashi takes what worked with DOA5, what was worked about DOA4, and combines the two together with even more on top. That would be the best DOA game for me.
You had to look out for animals in the jungle stages that would come out from each side of the arena and knock you around. You weren't just kicking people into walls or off a single platform. You were smashing them into cars on the street, throwing them down stairs with special throws, knocking them through windows ect.
The level design and IQ was what i really liked about the game.
Of course, it wasn't perfect. The "doll face' effect was still there on the characters which gave them a horrible appearance after 3 straight games with the same design. Not only that, but all the bodies of the females were also the same, they never had individual elements to them that proved distinctive.
The costumes were hardly there. It was such a downgrade coming from Dead or Alive Ultimate 2's 15+ costumes to DOA4, where there are barely 6 or 7 costumes a character with no option to get anymore.
And who could forget, the actual game balance. Many controllers have been broken because of what a broken POS Alpha is, and in general, many of the fights are just cheap and too difficult to complete. You spend tens of retries just trying to beat a single enemy.
When DOA6 comes out, i hope Hayashi takes what worked with DOA5, what was worked about DOA4, and combines the two together with even more on top. That would be the best DOA game for me.
R_thanatos
Member
All of this x200
CastorTroy
Member
Probably been said a million times, but the series is better off without Itagaki making them worse and worse as time went on. DOA5 easily the best in the series.
synce
Member
Um, DOA5 does nothing really new. It's still Itagaki's DOA, but without any of the charm he brought to it. Now if DOA5 abandoned Itagaki's stun system or emphasis on danger zones, then I might take these "DOA is better now" comments a little more seriously.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
holy fuck is itagaki bitter. Ninja Gaiden 3 was a fucking disaster. I havent tried razer's edge
DOA though...I've been playing since DOA2 and absolutely loved 2 and 3. DOA4 was the ONLY reason I bought an xbox 360 and it sucked. DOA5 saved one of my favorite franchises and is easily the best in the series
(I also like Marie...sue me. Probably because I know a group of 3 sisters 18-21 that all look similar to her)
DOA though...I've been playing since DOA2 and absolutely loved 2 and 3. DOA4 was the ONLY reason I bought an xbox 360 and it sucked. DOA5 saved one of my favorite franchises and is easily the best in the series
(I also like Marie...sue me. Probably because I know a group of 3 sisters 18-21 that all look similar to her)
DoA hasn't done anything "new" since DoA2, really. It's all been a refinement of the formula. Which is fine by me, since I enjoy the gameplay.
Itagaki's comments and games post DoA3 would have killed the series for me. Where DoA3 had a looser free step that could actually be used as a sidetep, he removed that and made everything track in DoA4. Where DoA3 rewarded the attacker for a good read with guaranteed damage, higher launchers, frame advantage, an actual metagame on the wall, he removed all of those things with DoA4. He added instead the stun threshold and higher counter damage that made it difficult to get any damage and allowed the defender, who had already messed up, multiple opportunities through high damage counters to do just as much, and probably more, damage than the attacker.
He saw what DoA3 played like and said, "I don't want my game to play like this." So he made DoA4. He said a wrestler should never beat a ninja, and balanced his games around his personal ideals instead of trying to balance a game around the characters in the game.
So, no, DoA5 doesn't do anything "new" really, but it does refine what has come before to a point where the gameplay and balance are far better than everything since. It doesn't do anything "new," but Tecmo has done an amazing job cultivating and supporting their game post release, making sure that their presence is known at majors, supporting stream efforts and top players through the ingame ticker. Nothing "new," but they added a F2P version of the game that is more than fair, that allows people to try out practically everything in the game, play online, and buy characters a la carte (and has given several away for free). They've created a model, like it or not, of DLC that supports the franchise giving fans what they want, further allowing them to create updates as we are getting in Last Round.
So, no, nothing "new." But I'll take what we're getting now 100 times over what we last got from Itagaki and where he would have taken the series had he not left.
He made the base game, DoA5 didn't redefine the formula, its just tweaks and adjustments to the ground work built by Itagaki.
lol...so it's:
NG3 sucks ass, they can't do shit without Itagaki.
So what if people like DoA5? They're just continuing what Itagaki started.
So if NG4 is good, then Team Ninja deserves no credit, since they're just continuing what Itagaki began?
Are the people who worked on DOA 5 the same team that worked on NG3?
Dunno. I'm sure there's some crossover. Don't know how large the team is.
Yes and no. Yes there is a few people that worked on DOA that is the same as Ninja Gaiden 3. No, in that the lead of DOA is Shambori (or however it's spelled) as #TeamDOA versus Hayashi(t) and his #TeamNinjaGaiden
#TeamDOA has been KILLING it with DOA5. #TeamNinjaDog meanwhile...
What was bitter about what he said? It sounded pretty level minded and reasonable. Most of what he said was about fans of the series and his own work.
That one word represents exactly what the problem he pointed out is. Meta is for "tourney" gamers as I like to call them. He made DOA for multiple types of gamers, not just people who are all into counting frames, analyzing combo's under a microsope and things like that. It was also for people who just want to have fun, or people who like to play defensively. It was a fighting game for gamers in general.
The new DOAs only cater to "one" type of gamer exactly like he said.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
DOA5 added an actual story mode as well as tons of game modes for the casual or single player to enjoy while also balancing the combat while keeping the bar of entry very low. DOA5 is good for far more gamer types than any prior DOA
ShinMaruku
Member
Itagaki still salty? Must be Hayashi taking over Koei
/shrug
Disagree. The metagame for "tourney" gamers or however you want to call it was always present. Unless you can tell me how DoA5 isn't for casual gamers as well as "tourney" gamers. The metagame I'm talking about was actually in DoA3 and DoA2 (you know, those games Itagaki made). DoA4 added wakeup attacks off of the wall which allowed another escape for the person who fucked up to get out.
So how is DoA5 not for multiple types of gamers, exactly? Since it has more content at release than any DoA before it, and comparable gameplay that most people that aren't "tourney" gamers probably wouldn't notice changes to?
Edit: The section of the quote you point out was talking about DoA3, lolol. You know, Itagaki's game.
Hilarious.
Double Edit: Also dislike the implied dichotomy that "tourney" players don't want to have "fun." As if the means through which "tourney" players get better, explore gameplay depth and characters is somehow not "fun" just because players like you do not enjoy it. As if there's only one way to have "fun" and exploring the depth of a fighting game is not one of those ways.
Cpt Conifer
Member
DOA has never been the same since Itagaki was separated from his daughters.
I just had to say it, not really arguing about the allegations of the series going to shit for a while before 5 because I wouldn't know. The only one I ever played extensively was DOA2 on the Dreamcast, so I have about the best possible memories of when he was on the team. I played 3 and 4 for like five minutes each and didn't enjoy it, but I blamed the hardware (namely the controllers) before I even began thinking about game design. The DC controller felt insanely well suited for the game... I actually loved using that raised, chunky dpad for it compared to the mushy DualShock2-3 or apathetic Xbox designs.
DOA5 is awful outside of gameplay , that it does much better than 4.But everything else is pretty much a disappointment.
DOA5 stages lacked atmosphere and when the game was coming out they had all these grimdark stages compared to other entries.Music was awful and had some rapper to sing DOA like the One Piece Dub rap.(I could ghost write them better lyrics.)Though rock is more important to DOA as it has always been and should be a priority.
Male characters get nothing hardly and they had more unique standalone costumes in 2U.(Ein was working up an interesting collection of outfits.)Doesn't make sense for a game with dlc to not at least let them have half of what the females have.How did it become males get even less and females get even more , well "select" females.Black girl doesn't need any costumes..(I know that she isn't the only character but she has zero presence now.)
It would be nicer if the costumes were spread out better than just catering to people with fetishes.DLC hasn't been adding anything with personal meaning for the characters.
Then there are the other aspects of the game like getting 100% or even getting 60% complete that is overly tedious. Who thought 5000 battles with each character for some tag is reasonable?100 wins per character is a lot more reasonable and doesn't stop as many people from ever completing.I lost motivation to get to like 60% to get Alpha because I only played one character decently and don't have time to complete daunting tasks.Other DOA's handled getting content better by just playing and being straight forward.DOA4 had a item shop like an old fashion game , that was more entertaining than what is in DOA5.Outside of competitive play and waiting for skimpy dlc , DOA5 is a barebones experience.
I wish the "I am a fighter" meant they could dress like one more often , not saying DOA players can't have their swimsuits that they love looking at.
DOA5 stages lacked atmosphere and when the game was coming out they had all these grimdark stages compared to other entries.Music was awful and had some rapper to sing DOA like the One Piece Dub rap.(I could ghost write them better lyrics.)Though rock is more important to DOA as it has always been and should be a priority.
Male characters get nothing hardly and they had more unique standalone costumes in 2U.(Ein was working up an interesting collection of outfits.)Doesn't make sense for a game with dlc to not at least let them have half of what the females have.How did it become males get even less and females get even more , well "select" females.Black girl doesn't need any costumes..(I know that she isn't the only character but she has zero presence now.)
It would be nicer if the costumes were spread out better than just catering to people with fetishes.DLC hasn't been adding anything with personal meaning for the characters.
Then there are the other aspects of the game like getting 100% or even getting 60% complete that is overly tedious. Who thought 5000 battles with each character for some tag is reasonable?100 wins per character is a lot more reasonable and doesn't stop as many people from ever completing.I lost motivation to get to like 60% to get Alpha because I only played one character decently and don't have time to complete daunting tasks.Other DOA's handled getting content better by just playing and being straight forward.DOA4 had a item shop like an old fashion game , that was more entertaining than what is in DOA5.Outside of competitive play and waiting for skimpy dlc , DOA5 is a barebones experience.
I wish the "I am a fighter" meant they could dress like one more often , not saying DOA players can't have their swimsuits that they love looking at.
Astral Dog
Member
I played DOAD, and DOA 5, fun gameplay, one of the few figthing games/series i could get into besides Smash and MvsC, they need to do something about these stages and story mode on 5 though it felt like it was incomplete.
You can unlock all non-dlc outfits in DoA5:U just by playing. You can even unlock them faster by doing tag, which unlocks an outfit for both characters you play.
DoA2U had outfits to build on from 6 or 7 versions of DoA2.
Here is what DoA4 had for characters:
Don't care to look, but I'm pretty sure DoA5 launched with more outfits than that.
I agree with costumes being more even, though. It's a problem the series has always had going back to DoA1 where the females had like 15 or 16, and the guys had 4 or 5 at most usually.
Edit: DoA5 launched with 114 outfits on disc, DoA4 with 103, so looks like on average more outfits per character in DoA4. I stand corrected.
Sounds like plain old business sense, if that's what their sales stats are showing.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Itagaki's the dude who decided that consistent damage in a fighting game is dumb and thought making every single move a gamble was cool.
Really don't want him designing FG's ever again.
DR2K
Banned
He didn't make it by himself. In fact the base game was helped made my the creator of VF. Hence the VF characters in DOA5.
Don't Ein and Leon only have like 2 or 3 costumes in DOA5U?(without any being new or unique)
I mean like something they would wear personally and not for holiday or shared theme that makes no sense for the character.Female characters are at like 30/40/50 and males just sit outdated....Marie Rose had like 4 or 5 times what they had when she arrived.DOA5 is least favorable to male characters outside of Ninjas and Elliot.
ShinMaruku
Member
He won't be making fgs again. He never liked them. Which is why I never understood why people would ask him about fighting games.
I don't see why we disqualify outfits based on what they would "personally wear." I mean, why would Ayane wear a Kagero's deception outfit? Why would they wear schoolgirl outfits. Why would they wear skimpy bikinis. Using your own litmus, most of the characters don't have many outfits. lol. I mean, if we're going to compare like for like versions, than Last Round with its 400+ outfits on disc has more outfits than DoA2U after its 6 or 7 (i'll have to look that up).
But yes, I think they had very few outfits. Like I said, it's a problem, and I agree with it, but if we're critiquing current Team Ninja, it's one that should be leveled at Itagaki's DoA's as well. The men consistently have a fraction of the outfits that the women receive.
Even as the worst I didn't think it was bad, I just preferred the others over it.
I wasn't really limiting but was saying that halloween outfit and Christmas outfits aren't what they need but more in general.Female characters have so much that is new and they are rocking the same thing for a whole year worth of updates.I can have all these fan service updates but can't put a male character in a trenchcoat or desert gear.Itagaki is guilty for the same thing with fan service but there has been better outfits for them , more than there is now.
I agree. I would love more casual collections. I think it's ridiculous that we get 10 swimsuits and other silly things like that. It sucks that we'll get rounds of costumes without every character receiving one. I'd think, especially with the F2P version, they'd want the love to be equal. Give characters more exposure and incentive to buy more stuff.
:/
Well, yes, this is obvious. The man is still one of the main creators behind the series' origins and is a semi-figure head of it and Ninja Gaiden, or was anyway. DoA5 isn't a game built from nothing, its built on what he and others made to begin with.
That's all I'm saying.
DR2K
Banned
Just_myles
Member
Wow @ this thread. FightingGameGAF going in on DOA4. I thought 3 was fantastic.
3 IS fantastic (well, 3.1 or 3.2 is...the version that you had to import and mod your OG xbox to play...that version is fantastic). It's his comments and decisions after 3 came out that resulted in DoA4 that make me happy that he's no longer involved in the franchise.
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
Wow, my hyperbole sensor is going nuts.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
If people think DOA4 qualifies a genuinely terrible fighter, they must of not played many fighters. I really liked DOA4 despite it's issues, but DOA5 is the better fighter without question imo. Of course the backgrounds and image quality do not look as visually appealing in DOA5, but I think the much improved character models and gameplay mechanics made up for it.
Exactly. Since his departure, the DOA series has greatly improved. Not everyone lives the same imaginary world he does.
grap3fruitman
Banned
Your hyperbole sensor must've been made by Itagaki then. The changes to DOA4 made it so that it's safer to be hit than to attack. I'm not talking about playing defense, you're literally in a more advantageous position than your opponent when you are taking damage.