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[Nirolak]

It's like you didn't even read what he said. Feature set. Wii was completely incapable of doing a lot of things the 360/PS3 could. It wasn't just a case of massive scaling down, it was just not possible. Not to mention a 20x gap compared to a 4/5x for the Wii U

Memory would be the most problematic bottleneck on the hardware front I imagine.

It's notably harder to scale that down than vastly reduce model complexity and texture resolution.

 

[JordanN]

So based on one series we're going to dismiss the fact that N64 and GCN were pretty weak 3rd-party-wise despite their specs. I can make the point that N64 barely got any fighter from Namco, Capcom or anyone.

Sure why not? I'm just saying all this dismissal of specs is weird when the evidence is right before you.

Although I did bring up other examples (i.e Sonic and Resident Evil).

Edit: Their support may be bad but they're not Wii/Wii U levels of bad. And that's the point.

 

[BGBW]

Where's elite beat 2 or ounden 3?

Reggie and Iwata killed that series after it was more awesome than anything else on the DS.

Nothing to do with the fact that the developer went on to other things.

Or the fact that it didn't sell well and your favourite shop, GAME, started selling EBA for £5.

No, Iwata and Reggie literally hated the games, the inclusion of YMCA and the fact it was fun. Perfect sense!

 

[Aaron Strife]

Where's elite beat 2 or ounden 3?

Reggie and Iwata killed that series after it was more awesome than anything else on the DS.

NOA put all their marketing muscle into making EBA a hit and it didn't work. It's a niche title that didn't find its audience, that's not Reggie or Iwata's fault.

Also Ouendan 2 came out after EBA was released and bombed. But yeah, they killed the series.

 

[FyreWulff]

Memory would be the most problematic bottleneck on the hardware front I imagine.

A big issue with the Wii was the fact that it had fixed function shaders versus the 360/PS3's programmable.

The Wii U doesn't have this problem. Everyone has programmable shaders now.

edit: for games lead on 360 or PS3, I expect Wii U versions to have a higher texture resolution. For 720/PS4 games ported down, I expect them to drop texture res on world objects but keep them up on principal characters.

But this also depends on how much of that 8GB on the PS4 developers actually end up having access to.

 

[Oblivion]

Also, all these titles are confusing. What's the hierarchy when it comes to President, CEO, and Chairman?

Anyone?

 

[AzaK]

Hahahaha!

 

[wsippel]

Nah, the gap is still big.

A 1.8 Tflop DX11 level GPU completely wrecks Nintendo from a mile.

If Nintendo was smart, they could targeted something low end but still modern like a Radeon HD 6570 level GPU. But now they have to face the consequences (of being cheap) again.

Except Latte is probably more expensive than a 6570.

 

[StevieP]

Memory would be the most problematic bottleneck on the hardware front I imagine.

It's notably harder to scale that down than vastly reduce model complexity and texture resolution.

The CPU core count may run them into issues as well second to the vast memory deficit, however it's not a complete impossibility like it was on the Wii. I think that's the point some are trying to make. If the effort wants to be made to scale, it can be made much easier than it was for Wii.

With that said, people expecting substantial third party support and these efforts to be made are obviously expecting too much at this time. That has less to do with specs than it does other factors, which is what some need to understand. Nintendo could put out a high end PC and these issues and this lack of support would still be present.

 

[chaosblade]

Memory would be the most problematic bottleneck on the hardware front I imagine.

It's notably harder to scale that down than vastly reduce model complexity and texture resolution.

That's true, I do kind of wonder if Nintendo would have had added more RAM, even if all the other specs were about the same same, if they had known that both of the other consoles were going to have 8GB. Even if Nintendo managed to open up another half a GB to devs it would still be their biggest weak point.

The CPU core count may run them into issues as well second to the vast memory deficit, however it's not a complete impossibility like it was on the Wii. I think that's the point some are trying to make. If the effort wants to be made to scale, it can be made much easier than it was for Wii.

With that said, people expecting substantial third party support and these efforts to be made are obviously expecting too much at this time. That has less to do with specs than it does other factors, which is what some need to understand. Nintendo could put out a high end PC and these issues and this lack of support would still be present.

That's more what I was getting at, and I even said in my original post that ports would be unlikely.

 

[RM8]

Sure why not? I'm just saying all this dismissal of specs is weird when the evidence is right before you.

Although I did bring up other examples (i.e Sonic and Resident Evil).

Better specs don't mean good 3rd party support as shown by N64 and GCN, that's pretty much not something that can be argued. So for Nintendo there are two options: an affordable system that makes them more money, or a beefy system that might not make a lot of money. It doesn't matter how much anyone wants Nintendo to make a "HD Triplet", Iwata is not wrong by choosing the first option.

Less multiplatform titles (that N64 and GCN were struggling to get anyway), but also unique games that wouldn't exist if Wii had been a PS360 clone.

 

[Raptomex]

I guess this is a good thing. Seems random, though.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Where did this argument that Nintendo would automatically get better 3rd party support with nicer specs come from? Definitely not from the N64 or GCN era. Which Nintendo systems get 3rd party support these days? Their underpowered handhelds, go figure. Some people simply will never accept that Nintendo won't releae a third "HD Triplet" with Mario on top.

Its so fucking obvious why people think that they would get more that I really think you're just being super obtuse

 

[Nightstick11]

why are you comparing the 3DS to the GBA and not the DS?

The better question is why isn't he comparing DS to GBA, but he can't, because then he'd have to face the reality that he sounds stupid.

This post-mortem lionizing of the Gamecube is pretty entertaining, to say the least.

I agree. I was on gaming-age.com forums during those days, and I have never seen the love that Gamecube is getting today.

The 3DS is not doing "fine" according to Nontendo's continuously slashed predictions. It's surviving.

So 31 million units in 2 years is "surviving", according to this guy.

Do Nintendo even have an email address?

From now on and until Iwata is gone, I'm calling them intendo

Fuck this.

I'm emailing Nintendo.

Is there any way to add someone to a buddy list so you get an alert if they post? I just love Brera's posts hahahaha.

 

[Gummb]

No, it isn't. Not in the way people seem to imply when they point to the 3DS doing "fine."

The 3DS is doing well enough to not be considered a failure. But it's not doing well enough to be used as an example of Nintendo's strategy being successful, in my opinion.

Its performance is just sort of...there.

This is more reasonable. While I have no idea what you mean by the 3DS's performance being "there," I can understand why you believe the 3DS is neither a success nor a failure. Obviously for Nintendo, being a business, nothing will ever be "fine," but as far as the future of the system goes, I believe "fine" is a good descriptor. Can we agree?

 

[Shion]

We have a situation right no where there are still plenty of new 360 and PS3 games being made that are skipping the WiiU, despite it being more than capable of handling them.

Of course they are.

Almost anyone who wants to play a current-gen game (like Tomb Raider, BioShock etc.) already owns a PS360 or a PC.

Why would anyone buy the Wii U version?

And, more importantly, why would anyone buy a Wii U to play current-gen games?

Truth is, there is no market for 3rd party games on the Wii U.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It would have gotten more third party support, that can't be argued.

But I doubt it would ever approach the line in to significant third party support.

 

[Nekofrog]

Where did this argument that Nintendo would automatically get better 3rd party support with nicer specs come from? Definitely not from the N64 or GCN era. Which Nintendo systems get 3rd party support these days? Their underpowered handhelds, go figure. Some people simply will never accept that Nintendo won't releae a third "HD Triplet" with Mario on top.

N64 - gimped cartridges that were too expensive and held extremely little data, while Nintendo held the keys to the factory and could charge whatever the fuck they wanted per cartridge.

GC - gimped mini discs that held far less than the industry standard DVD. Purple lunchbox.

Nintendo always does something to royally fuck all 3rd party interest in their system "just because". They didn't lose the N64 and GC gens because they went for "power", they lost them because they were fucking idiots in designing the media.

 

[prag16]

Difference is, Wii was a GameCube overspeced, the Wii U has a modern GPU, 1/1.5GB for games, and a GPGPU like PS4/720 will have.

There is a difference between what the Wii was compared to PS3/360 and Wii U to PS4/720.

This, even when using the bullshit multipliers, you come up with less than an order of magnitude difference in "power" by most measures with Wii U vs. PS4. In the case of Wii vs. PS360 you were well over an order of magnitude difference.

Porting should be WAY more feasible this time around.... doesn't mean there'll be more ports though.

 

[JordanN]

Better specs don't mean good 3rd party support as shown by N64 and GCN,

It means better support than what Wii/Wii U offered. Anything else is useless conjecture.

And I don't care about any justification. My facts are known.

 

[Spirit Icana]

Anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4n1R_Bxkzs

 

[hatchx]

Isn't there a Q and A with Iwata tonight?

 

[RM8]

It means better support than what Wii/Wii U offered. Anything else is useless conjecture.

And I don't care about any justification. My facts are known.

First, going from weak 3rd party support to slightly less weak 3rd party support is probably not worth the cost of making a beefier system. Second, you're measuring 3rd party support mostly with multiplatform games. 3rd party Wii exclusives are 3rd party support too.

And again, Nintendo handhelds in their underpowered glory will get more 3rd party support somehow. Profitability is the number one factor, I think.

 

[Nirolak]

The CPU core count may run them into issues as well second to the vast memory deficit, however it's not a complete impossibility like it was on the Wii. I think that's the point some are trying to make. If the effort wants to be made to scale, it can be made much easier than it was for Wii.

With that said, people expecting substantial third party support and these efforts to be made are obviously expecting too much at this time. That has less to do with specs than it does other factors, which is what some need to understand. Nintendo could put out a high end PC and these issues and this lack of support would still be present.

I think the GameCube is the best example of that.

 

[Meelow]

First, going from weak 3rd party support to slightly less weak 3rd party support is probably not worth the cost of making a beefier system. Second, you're measuring 3rd party support mostly with multiplatform games. 3rd party Wii exclusives are 3rd party support too.

N64 third party support was really bad, the Western's third party support was alright but the Japanese support was non existent, I guess Nintendo could just go up from there.

 

[jcm]

Anyone?

Here's a useful primer:

The CEO is a company's top decision-maker, and all other executives answer to him or her. The CEO typically delegates many of the tactical responsibilities to other managers, focusing instead on strategic issues, such as which markets to enter, how to take on the competition, and which companies to form partnerships with. This is in contrast to the chief operating officer or president, who oversees day-to-day operations and logistics. The CEO is ultimately accountable to the board of directors for the company's performance.

The chairman of a company is the head of its board of directors. The board is elected by shareholders and is responsible for protecting investors' interests, such as the company's profitability and stability. It usually meets several times a year to set long-term goals, review financial results, evaluate the performance of high-level managers, and vote on important strategic moves proposed by the CEO. Directors appoint--and can fire--upper-level managers such as the CEO and president. The chairman typically wields substantial power in setting the board's agenda and determining the outcome of votes. But he or she does not necessarily play an active role in everyday management.

 

[AzaK]

That's true, I do kind of wonder if Nintendo would have had added more RAM, even if all the other specs were about the same same, if they had known that both of the other consoles were going to have 8GB. Even if Nintendo managed to open up another half a GB to devs it would still be their biggest weak point.



That's more what I was getting at, and I even said in my original post that ports would be unlikely.

It's hard to know really. Will devs really be able to take advantage of nearly 3x the cores? If so, when? 2, 3, 5 years from now? Tomorrow?

Unless massive ram is used for massive data structures to enable certain ground breaking techniques I think most things can be down scaled. Model fidelity, textures, draw distances and additional environmental touches.

It all depends on cost. If new engines are able to scale to Wii U then I think it's likely it will get titles assuming it gets an install base of course and is deemed viable. Mobile might help push engine devs to support lower specs which is also good.

Basically I think the issue would be more business/political than technical.

 

[BD1]

This seems pretty inconsequential to me.

Most of you didn't even know NoA had a CEO. Iwata didn't "become" CEO, some of the responsabilities absorbed it into his current position. I would guess that mostly means managing the regions P&L. Reggie's role in the company is exactly the same today as it was yesterday. It's really not that big of a deal, imo.

 

[Christopher]

They really really don't know what their doing do they?

 

[FyreWulff]

N64 third party support was really bad, the Western's third party support was alright but the Japanese support was non existent, I guess Nintendo could just go up from there.

An entire two games at launch for the N64. I don't think any console has repeated that since.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Most importantly-what does this mean for Nintendo Direct?

 

[Tookay]

An entire two games at launch for the N64. I don't think any console has repeated that since.

In fairness, one of those games was the most influential 3D game ever, so it didn't hurt as much.

 

[Somnid]

Most importantly-what does this mean for Nintendo Direct?

More Reggie speaking Japanese.

 

[JordanN]

First, going from weak 3rd party support to slightly less weak 3rd party support is probably not worth the cost of making a beefier system. Second, you're measuring 3rd party support mostly with multiplatform games. 3rd party Wii exclusives are 3rd party support too.

There's a bigger risk in exclusives unless it's Nintendo paying for them. This is why I hold multiplatforms to a higher standard. Can Nintendo supply enough third party exclusives to match PS4/720's output? Lets see.

And again, Nintendo handhelds in their underpowered glory will get more 3rd party support somehow.

PSP got its share of games that otherwise, wouldn't be possible on DS. Nintendo continues to be the popular choice so I can see why it's supported.

Before that, Nintendo never had a real challenger that could be a substitute.

 

[RM8]

An entire two games at launch for the N64. I don't think any console has repeated that since.

And it never really got better. N64's library hardly overlaps with PS1, it's like they existed on completely different dimensions (and in my opinion that's kind of a good thing... I remember both as two of my absolute favorite gaming systems for very different reasons).

Can Nintendo supply enough third party exclusives to match PS4/720's output? Lets see.

I admit this is very subjective - but it doesn't harm me because the last time I owned only a Nintendo system was back in the SNES days. I think Nintendo might have this in mind, Wii/WiiU being a completely different platform and not really a PS or Xbox substitute.

PSP got its share of games that otherwise, wouldn't be possible on DS. Nintendo continues to be the popular choice so I can see why its supported.

Vita is not being a repeat of PSP, though, despite its superior hardware. Again, I think profitability is the number one factor for 3rd party support.

 

[jcm]

You're totally right. Predictions aren't arguments. And wasn't 3DS profitable only since September ? So, in this case, meeting expectations was really important because they needed to recoup costs of their slashing at time. But sales wise, it's not so bad, worse than the beast DS so not good for investors, I think that's what means most of those (like me) who say that 3DS issue is not that bad, only sales wise. Concerning the economical point...

My personal opinion is that sales are excellent in japan, and not very good everywhere else. There's plenty of room between the current sales and the DS's sales, and "good" or "fine" lies somewhere in that space, I think. I mean, the 3DS is down YOY in NPD, and it's not like last year was something record-breaking. It's selling at roughly the same rate in the US as seven year old consoles.

In short, I don't believe Nintendo's disappointment in the ex-japan 3DS sales comes out of some kind of crazy high tiger mom expectations. They're just not that good.

 

[topplehat]

I think this is good, NoA always seems behind.

 

[Oblivion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4n1R_Bxkzs

Here's a useful primer:

The CEO is a company's top decision-maker, and all other executives answer to him or her. The CEO typically delegates many of the tactical responsibilities to other managers, focusing instead on strategic issues, such as which markets to enter, how to take on the competition, and which companies to form partnerships with. This is in contrast to the chief operating officer or president, who oversees day-to-day operations and logistics. The CEO is ultimately accountable to the board of directors for the company's performance.

The chairman of a company is the head of its board of directors. The board is elected by shareholders and is responsible for protecting investors' interests, such as the company's profitability and stability. It usually meets several times a year to set long-term goals, review financial results, evaluate the performance of high-level managers, and vote on important strategic moves proposed by the CEO. Directors appoint--and can fire--upper-level managers such as the CEO and president. The chairman typically wields substantial power in setting the board's agenda and determining the outcome of votes. But he or she does not necessarily play an active role in everyday management.

Grazie.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Let's see where this goes.

 

[Oblivion]

I think the third party support comparisons to the N64 and GC are a tad off, to be honest. Sure, both of those systems were as capable power-wise with their competitors, but both (especially the N64) were gimped with their storage mediums. It's important not to neglect that factor.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Well, hopefully Iwata can see why the Wii U is having problems in the US if he has to run the US branch.

It might help.

 

[JordanN]

Vita is not being a repeat of PSP, though, despite its superior hardware. Again, I think profitability is the number one factor for 3rd party support.

The handhelds kinda exist in their own vacuum where it's half profit and half horsepower. There are still games being made for Vita that need the power (i.e Ninja Gaiden or Mortal Kombat). You also have the problem of the West not adopting whereas Japan does. So there's a difference in production values.

 

[CoffeeGames]

So he got booted from japan?
What will happen to Reggie now? Will he be undermined more? More power will be given to him or more will be stripped of him?

How has he been undermined? I seem to hear this, but never see this.

 

[AOC83]

Well, hopefully Iwata can see why the Wii U is having problems in the US if he has to run the US branch.

It might help.

The WiiU is doing bad everywhere. So it isn´t a US specific problem.

 

[FormallyFamicom]

Namco did put a Soul Calibur game on the Wii though.

It was just a shitty spinoff from the era of third parties giving Wii shitty spinoffs.

 

[RM8]

Also - really, Wii didn't get Street Fighter IV but iPhone did. A Wii version of Street Fighter IV, Tekken 6, SoulCalibur V or KOF XIII would have been -perfectly- possible, it's just that they didn't think there'd be a market for that.

 

[campfireweekend]

I think the third party support comparisons to the N64 and GC are a tad off, to be honest. Sure, both of those systems were as capable power-wise with their competitors, but both (especially the N64) were gimped with their storage mediums. It's important not to neglect that factor.

I understand that in theory, but we are quickly approaching the no true Scotsman fallacy where no console they ever put out could be used to actively guage third party support in Nintendo hardware.

 

[hatchx]

All this talk of Soul Calibur makes me think they should do a Zelda X Soul Calibur. It'd be huge.

 

[Hiltz]

Back during the 72nd annual Nintendo Shareholders meeting, someone asked Iwata about the concern of Wii U repeating Wii's lack of significant third party multiplatform support:

Q:

Wii is the best-selling console and holds the top share among the video game consoles for now, but both in Japan and overseas for about these two years, the Wii has been sometimes excluded from what is called multiplatform software and some games have been released only for the PS3 and the Xbox 360. When the Wii U has entered a mature phase four or five years later, will it be able to compete with a next-generation console by Microsoft or personal computers? I am concerned about a future situation in which a game is available for consoles other than the Wii U due to a lack of power. Please let me know what efforts you have made to avoid it.

A:

We have not successfully kept the momentum of the Wii for about the last two years because third-party publishers have released a smaller number of game titles and Nintendo has also decreased new games for the platform in preparation for the launch of the Nintendo 3DS and the Wii U. As the Wii has no such system as the gMiiverseh in the Nintendo Network mentioned earlier today, in which consumers have a chance to encounter new games in communication with others, the momentum temporarily provoked by a new game has easily been diminished.

We cannot promise that the Wii U will never be excluded from multiplatform software for eternity, but we can at least assure you that the Wii U will not have such a big difference as the Wii had in comparison to how, on other platforms, developers could expect very different graphic capabilities of generating HD-applicable high-resolution graphics. Other companies might launch a next-generation console with more power, but we donft necessarily think that the difference between the Wii U and such console will be as drastic as what you felt it was between the Wii and the other consoles because there will be fewer and fewer differentiators in graphics. Naturally some consumers are very sensitive about such a small difference in graphics so that we will make efforts to make the most of the performance of the Wii U to keep up with technological innovations and not to make the system out-of-date soon. However, as the structure of the product called the Wii U is as if we are including both a video game console and a handheld device, if we were not careful about how luxurious both of them were, we could end up having to offer the price of the two hardware systems combined, which would not be an acceptable price for the consumers. We had to design it by balancing the performance and the costs.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/stock/meeting/120628qa/03.html

 

[JordanN]

Also - really, Wii didn't get Street Fighter IV but iPhone did. A Wii version of Street Fighter IV, Tekken 6, SoulCalibur V or KOF XIII would have been -perfectly- possible, it's just that they didn't think there'd be a market for that.

The productions for the iPhone game is likely radically different from what a console port could have been.

Unless people are willing to pay for low budget sprites at $50.

All those other games are too technically advance to simply blame it on the market.