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Jak and Daxter series > Ratchet or Sly Cooper

EmCeeGramr said:
Okay I'll help because I honestly care about helping people. :)

"Sane" and "whining," hope that helps!
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Tks. I never could have seen it because "sane" in french is "sain". And we have alot of double letters in our words so this explain the other error...

.
 
I love the Jak series. I did a replay recently and sure enough, it's still fucking awesome . I even found a lot of fun in aspects others hated - like changing heights while flying down the streets to avoid other cars and the guards. The game also has one of my favorite platforming sections ever.

I don't try to argue with the haters, though - opinions on the series just differ wildly. I do love them all though - except Daxter. Bleh. Hoping for the best with Lost Frontier, though expectations are certainly limited.
 
Himuro said:
Jet Set Radio Future is my favorite platformer last gen. If you're counting Dreamcast though, it'd be Jet Grind Radio.

Klonoa 2 is good though. So is Mario Sunshine and Sly. Overall, last gen sucked for platformers.
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Well, I think that all the gen post SNES suck in that regard. But at least there seem to be a handful of great ones every gen.

.
 
Himuro said:
Jet Set Radio Future is my favorite platformer last gen. If you're counting Dreamcast though, it'd be Jet Grind Radio.

Klonoa 2 is good though. So is Mario Sunshine and Sly. Overall, last gen sucked for platformers.
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I didn't think it was too bad, although I agree there were only a handful of truly exceptional pure bred platformers. Between the incredible breadth of the second tier within the genre and some of the good mixed genre games with platforming elements I thought it was a pretty good though, if not great. The current generation on the other hand is abysmal for platforming games so far, with a few notable exceptions.

Btw, I feel like I should temper my posts about Jak II by saying as much as I dislike it there are enough good parts to at least justify the measly $6 price tag as long as you go into it without any illusions about the more lackluster elements.
 
GrotesqueBeauty said:
Considering that Precursor Legacy had a better overworld, better level design, better controls, and no screen tearing I'm hard pressed to think of ways in which Jak II could be seriously considered an improvement.

You can argue length, but I'd rather play 10-15 hours of a fun (if conventional) platformer than 20-30 of some stinking hodge podge of everything considered "hip" in 2003, especially when it lacks any sense of cohesion or balance. It should be called Jak II: Of All Trades, Master of None. You can sense the team's ambition but it's woefully misguided. On average the experience is uneven in execution, and at times even outright sloppy. That's not to say there aren't some good missions here and there, but you have to wade through shit to get to them.
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See I think the overworld in Jak 1 is 3D platformer 101 from the PS1/N64 era (with a nice non-loading engine) and the level design was basically the random enemy, collectible junk that descended from Crash Bandicoot.

You could also argue for the increased difficulty, but here too Jak II has no coherent approach. The challenge varies wildly from one level to the next without any real curve or sense of balance, and just as often as not failure during a mission can be attributed to poor design, or in the case of vehicular missions, poor controls and poor design. Precursor Legacy may be too easy for your taste, but at least it has an even sense of progression and the design is airtight in most instances. The same can't be said of Jak II.
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I'd rather have a slightly inconsistent difficulty than something you can sleepwalk through. I would replace "airtight" with unambitious. I guess fundamentally I enjoyed the ambitious overworld and depth of Jake II

Is it really any wonder that people prefer the first over the second? I don't believe they're lauding its length or fawning over "bright colors". They simply enjoy good design. You know, that crucial element that Jak II often lacks. The "better question", to use your words, is why the love for Jak II given its awful design choices and extreme inconsistency.
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I just think Jak 1 has a much simpler design, not better. I appreciate and enjoy the ambition of Jak II, it may be more uneven but it was not platforming 101 by Jak. And you may not care about the bright colors, etc. but it really is a prevailing theme among many others. Fundamentally I like Jak 1 but i think it is a very by the numbers, unambitious game that was improved upon tremendously in Jak 2. It's very safe and I enjoy the ambition, length, and difficulty of Jak II
 
HK-47 said:
You on crack? Jak never had as satisfying controls with guns that Ratchet did. Ratchet also had a better camera for shooting.
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Jak:

Press stick in direction of enemy.
Press fire button when red dot appears on enemy.
Enemy gets hit instantly.


Ratchet:

Press stick in direction of enemy.
Hope the abysmal auto-aim actually finds the enemy you want to shoot.
Press the fire button. Wait half a second for the bullet to actually come out. Wait another half a second for the bullet to actually reach your enemy - that is, if the auto-aim actually finds anyone.


I still don't understand how people can put up with Ratchet's abysmal auto-aim. I've had instances where there was ONE ENEMY RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, and the auto-aim wouldn't find it even when I pressed directly forward. The fact that strafing actually became a viable option starting with the second game was nice (as opposed to it being an upgrade that required a stupid combination of buttons to activate in the first game), but the auto-aim still sucked.

Plus the fact that Jak integrates both melee and ranged attacks together, whereas Ratchet punishes you for letting enemies get close by giving you a shitty no damage wrench that takes a week to swing.
 
this thread makes me want to find my old copy (I have no idea where it is, I might have sold it), and check to see whether the game is good like I remember it, or utter shit.
 
Himuro said:
Jet Set Radio Future is my favorite platformer last gen. If you're counting Dreamcast though, it'd be Jet Grind Radio.

Klonoa 2 is good though. So is Mario Sunshine and Sly. Overall, last gen sucked for platformers.
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Psychonauts, Jungle Beat, Rayman 3 GBA.

Rayman 2: The Great Escape is better than them all though.
 
Ranger X said:
Well, I think that all the gen post SNES suck in that regard. But at least there seem to be a handful of great ones every gen.

.
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This gen's been pretty all right. There haven't been as many as last gen, but they're more creative. Super Mario Galaxy, Braid, and Mirror's Edge create a trio of awesome platformers that beat last gen on their own. Then there've been a good deal of 2D platformers, mostly on the DS.

And the most important thing is that Jak II is stuck in last gen. It dragged the entire genre down.
 
KevinCow said:
Jak:

Press stick in direction of enemy.
Press fire button when red dot appears on enemy.
Enemy gets hit instantly.


Ratchet:

Press stick in direction of enemy.
Hope the abysmal auto-aim actually finds the enemy you want to shoot.
Press the fire button. Wait half a second for the bullet to actually come out. Wait another half a second for the bullet to actually reach your enemy - that is, if the auto-aim actually finds anyone.


I still don't understand how people can put up with Ratchet's abysmal auto-aim. I've had instances where there was ONE ENEMY RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, and the auto-aim wouldn't find it even when I pressed directly forward. The fact that strafing actually became a viable option starting with the second game was nice (as opposed to it being an upgrade that required a stupid combination of buttons to activate in the first game), but the auto-aim still sucked.

Plus the fact that Jak integrates both melee and ranged attacks together, whereas Ratchet punishes you for letting enemies get close by giving you a shitty no damage wrench that takes a week to swing.
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By Up Your Arsenal, the series had moved on to dual analog.

See, when Insomniac moves their platformers forward, they go in a positive direction.
 
AniHawk said:
By Up Your Arsenal, the series had moved on to dual analog.

See, when Insomniac moves their platformers forward, they go in a positive direction.
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I wouldn't know. Insomniac's only made three platformers, and I thought they were shitty Mario 64 clones with bland levels, poor controls, and annoying mini-games (these three things seem to be recurring themes in Insomniac games...). Though it's nice to know that the Ratchet series finally realized that it was a shooter all along and adopted the proper controls instead of continuing to pretend it was a platformer.
 
KevinCow said:
I wouldn't know. Insomniac's only made three platformers, and I thought they shitty Mario 64 clones with bland levels, poor controls, and annoying mini-games (these three things seem to be recurring themes in Insomniac games...). Though it's nice to know that the Ratchet series finally realized that it was a shooter all along and adopted the proper controls instead of continuing to pretend it was a platformer.
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Well at least the Ratchet series knows it's a video game series. Unfortunately, the Jak series has veered into the realm of poorly-made interactive movies.

Jak_and_Daxter_Limited_Edition_Movie.png


Hey, Himuro, you can just get this and cut out the middle man.
 
AniHawk said:
Well at least the Ratchet series knows it's a video game series. Unfortunately, the Jak series has veered into the realm of poorly-made interactive movies.
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I like this poorly made interactive movies =(

Daxter is such a fun character to watch and play (in Daxter psp). he's imo the best character out of Jak, Ratchet and Sly franchise.
 
AniHawk said:
Well at least the Ratchet series knows it's a video game series. Unfortunately, the Jak series has veered into the realm of poorly-made interactive movies.
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If poorly made interactive movies always have such tight controls and fun gameplay, then count me in!

Though then there's stuff like MGS, so this is clearly not always the case...
 
TEH-CJ said:
Jak 2 is the best in the series by far and its still one of the greatest games ever made. simply amazing.
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One of the greatest games ever made? Its one thing to like a game, but this opinion has a lot of weight to it. I'd take it with a grain of salt.
 
Himuro said:
As much as I love Psychonauts the platforming sucks and I don't remember it for the platforming. I remember it for the adventure gameplay.
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I guess I remember it for Milkman Conspiracy.

Haven't played Jungle Beat yet.
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It's only $15 or less for the GC+Bongos. The upcoming Wii version's had some stuff removed/replaced. But it's made by the SMG team and it's excellent.
 
AniHawk said:
Just so we're clear, Jak II is not a video game.
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Maybe. But the platforming bits in that non-video game were far better than any of the platforming bits in the Ratchet series or "one of the best platformers of the gen according to AniHawk" Psychonauts.

And Jak 3 was a fantastic video game.

AniHawk said:
I guess I remember it for Milkman Conspiracy.
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That level was awesome for the first five minutes. Then I realized that it was nothing but a shitty boring fetch quest.
 
KevinCow said:
Maybe. But the platforming bits in that non-video game were far better than any of the platforming bits in the Ratchet series or "one of the best platformers of the gen according to AniHawk" Psychonauts.
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I never said that the official non-game Jak II's platforming bits were bad. Go into any critique I've given the game and you'll see I say that the platforming is good. It's everything else that's objectively terrible. If the entire game was all platforming, it would have been a winner. Instead we got filler and a story that only Sonic fans like (so you're in good company), apparently.

Himuro said:
The only bad part of the game is the actual city. Traveling across one point of the map to the other is tedious. There should be a quick teleport system.
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Yes. And it's so fucking frustrating because the first game had a teleport system.
 
Himuro said:
The city should be smaller. There's nothing in it, so why is it so big? I had the same problem with Daxter on psp.
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It's because they created the story first and then they created the game. It's the Xenosaga series of platformers.

There was an interview with lead designers of the game. When asked why the shift of focus into dark and gritty, they said that stories in platformers weren't compelling enough, so the player wouldn't feel the drive to reach the end. They use Mario 64 as an example of a game that doesn't give you a compelling reason to play because all you get is a kiss from the princess at the end.
 
I just got into this series in the last month or so. Jak 1 was great but Jak 2 has been so bad I had to put it down.

1. They added guns, takes simple jump and punch combat and turns it into random button presses.

2. The city is populated but completely lifeless, nothing to do but point A to point B. Also the game is a platformer but the city feels devoid of any platforming.

3. I could stand these things if the platforming was still there in the levels but it is still almost non-existent.

Maybe it gets better but after the first few hours I put it down, nothing I liked about Jak 1 was there in 2 so far.

If you ask me Sucker Punch did it right, they have several smaller cities in Sly 2 and Sly 3 and they were highly interactive.

KevinCow said:
They added a button that makes you shoot. One more button for combat than Jak 1, and it has a very specific use. How is that turning it into random button presses?
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I feel (from the little I have played) that the melee combat felt out of place in Jak 2, like the game clearly wants you to use a gun from that point forward, and (so far) the guns feel overly easy and consist of just button mashing while running aimlessly in circles.

Like I said it might get better but I have no desire to pick it up again after the first few hours. I'll get around to it since I want to play Jak 3 (want to play them in order).
 
MvmntInGrn said:
1. They added guns, takes simple jump and punch combat and turns it into random button presses.
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They added a button that makes you shoot. One more button for combat than Jak 1, and it has a very specific use. How is that turning it into random button presses?
 
A bit unrelated, but I don't think it needs its own thread. How is ininja generally conceived on gaf? I ask because I just bought it and saw keven cows avatar, but didn't see anyone bring it up anywhere.

I just got passed the giant mech boxing round, and its pretty fun so far.
 
FootNinja said:
A bit unrelated, but I don't think it needs its own thread. How is ininja generally conceived on gaf? I ask because I just bought it and saw keven cows avatar, but didn't see anyone bring it up anywhere.

I just got passed the giant mech boxing round, and its pretty fun so far.
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I usually hesitate to pimp games, because if someone doesn't like it they'll blame me.

But I-Ninja is totally awesome and if you don't love it then you're just generally a bad person.
 
Himuro said:
So tell me about Jak 2. Since I'm enjoying 2 so much I want to know what exactly it improves. It doesn't contain the awesome difficulty of Jak 2, does it? But it streamlines the boring city? It seems like a fair trade off.
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You haven't gotten to the parts where the difficulty isn't awesome yet. Tell me how awesome it is when you're running through escort missions with no checkpoints and driving races with vehicles that can't turn.

Jak 3 isn't easy. You'll still die a lot. It's just far more forgiving with checkpoints. Plus, it doesn't have the unfun difficult bits of 2. There are more vehicular challenges, but they're far more enjoyable thanks to more responsive controls.

The city's also streamlined, to an extent. The overworld as a whole is bigger, now separated into three sections. But you don't have to worry about running into the Krimzon Guard, so you can pretty much just speed back and forth. It's been a while since I've played it to be honest, but I don't remember ever getting annoyed with the overworld in 3, whereas it was a common issue for me in 2.
 
KevinCow said:
You haven't gotten to the parts where the difficulty isn't awesome yet. Tell me how awesome it is when you're running through escort missions with no checkpoints and driving races with vehicles that can't turn.

Jak 3 isn't easy. You'll still die a lot. It's just far more forgiving with checkpoints. Plus, it doesn't have the unfun difficult bits of 2. There are more vehicular challenges, but they're far more enjoyable thanks to more responsive controls.

The city's also streamlined, to an extent. The overworld as a whole is bigger, now separated into three sections. But you don't have to worry about running into the Krimzon Guard, so you can pretty much just speed back and forth. It's been a while since I've played it to be honest, but I don't remember ever getting annoyed with the overworld in 3, whereas it was a common issue for me in 2.
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Pretty much! Plus, I don't think you spend nearly as much time in the city compared to 2, because there's another environment to explore.

Jak 3 really is 2 done right. Reading this thread makes me wanna replay it.

I'd suggest doing only the main story in 2 and then move on to 3 asap
 
Himuro said:
I'm convinced at this time that the people who say this game is terrible either haven't played it or suck at it.

Amazing.
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I thought it wasn't difficult except for one skateboarding-in-the-city part. The missions that take place in the city are fucking horrible.

If Jak II was a platformer, I'd probably like it. The few platforming areas were well done. The one in the middle of the game is particularly memorable.

KevinCow said:
awesome ... escort missions
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No.

There are certain things that are never fun in video games ever:

1. Escort missions.
2. Crates and crate-related activities.
3. Water levels.
 
Himuro said:
Mountain Temple.
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Yeah, you're still pretty much at the beginning of the game. You have a ways to go before you get to the really annoying bits.

AniHawk said:
No.

There are certain things that are never fun in video games ever:

1. Escort missions.
2. Crates and crate-related activities.
3. Water levels.
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Congratulations, you lack basic reading comprehension skills.
 
KevinCow said:
Yeah, you're still pretty much at the beginning of the game. You have a ways to go before you get to the really annoying bits.


Congratulations, you lack basic reading comprehension skills.
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No, I card-read good.
 
Reilly said:
It's GTA-like.

They made Jak "hardcore" and gave him a voice.

Guns

Hover cars


The game is just a mess and they took the series in the wrong direction.
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this guy is right! There was no need for guns and Hover cars.. Getting from one part of the city to the other was so damn long and them damn police chases are BS!
 
and while we're at it, Rayman 3 for the GCN/Xbox/PS2 was a damn good game.

As good as Rayman 2? No.
A fantastic game? Yes.

That was one funny, inventive and fun game, iirc.
 
I found an interesting interview with Jason Rubin where he talks about the gamesindustry etc. He says that Jak 3 had a budget of 15 million dollars and he talks about why they made the changes in design going from jak 1 to jak 2.

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EkRT7qOMq0

Even less then a year from release Crash Bandicoot didn't even have crates, it was a "last minute" gameplay decision.
 
Cesar said:
I found an interesting interview with Jason Rubin where he talks about the gamesindustry etc. He says that Jak 3 had a budget of 15 million dollars and he talks about why they made the changes in design going from jak 1 to jak 2.

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EkRT7qOMq0

Even less then a year from release Crash Bandicoot didn't even have crates, it was a "last minute" gameplay decision.
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God, those guys are such idiots, but at least they can do a good interview. Thanks for this.
 
Rez said:
and while we're at it, Rayman 3 for the GCN/Xbox/PS2 was a damn good game.

As good as Rayman 2? No.
A fantastic game? Yes.

That was one funny, inventive and fun game, iirc.
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Its a shame Ubisoft have ditched the platformer and replaced it with mini-games. never played Rayman 3 byt Rayman 2 on my Dreamcast will always get love..
 
Himuro said:
I'm convinced at this time that the people who say this game is terrible either haven't played it or suck at it.

Amazing.
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You'd be wrong. I've played through and beaten both 2 and 3, out of my love for the first game. It was a painful ordeal I can tell you.
 
Oh yeah, one more thing against Jak 2 & 3.
Daxter is less hilarious :(

I remember what he said in J&D1 and I always LMAO'ed XD
 
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