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[triplestation]

If you only value women for sex you'll never have anyone to clean your apartment

i clean my own apartment tyvm

 

[Heel]

Call me crazy, but something tells me this is the wrong place to get an idea of how your average heterosexual male views women.

 

[Tesseract]

Call me crazy, but something tells me this is the wrong place to get an idea of how your average heterosexual male views women.

and the right place is?

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

We have our sexual urges, but I think this article is correct. I honestly couldn't ask anything more than settling down with someone. I didn't want to have girlfriend after girlfriend or partner after partner.

Glad I'm married now.

 

[Wilsongt]

Being gay, I have always found it difficult to find someone who was after more than just sex. There is still a perception out there that men think with their dicks, because some of them do and a few of them don't.

I find cuddling to be the best thing in the world... I just want a little loving. I gave up thinking with my dick long ago and started thinking with my heart. =/ It's only gotten me into trouble, though.

 

[Vermillion]

My friends were talking about this the other day. I think it was an episode of Martin where he was telling Gina he wouldn't normally do some crazy stuff, but he does when he's with the boys.

That is the straight truth.

 

[Mumei]

You're wrong.

I actually have heard of male feminist allies who don't identify as "feminist" because of that (and instead identify as allies). I know Michael Kimmel mentions it in the audience Q&A here, though he says he changed his mind about it because of the way the term has been demonized.

No, I mean Jezebel are feminists. And I say that in a negative light. You would have to be one to assume something as stupid as all guys just want sex.

I'm glad they are finally reaching this moment of enlightenment.

I don't know how to tell you this, but feminists don't believe that guys just want sex. I don't know how you have managed to read this article and come to the conclusion that the "we" in "Why Do We Still Think Guys Just Want Sex" referred to feminists and not to society at large, but... you did it!

 

[soul creator]

as with a lot of other damaging social conventions, things tend to be funneled into extremes. So we're socialized to either want to fuck a bunch of people with zero emotions, or find one person to spend our entire life with monogamously.

There's a huge amount of variance in between those two extremes when it comes to sexuality and relationships, but those unfortunately tend to get ignored :/

 

[WanderingWind]

My friends were talking about this the other day. I think it was an episode of Martin where he was telling Gina he wouldn't normally do some crazy stuff, but he does when he's with the boys.

That is the straight truth.

That's ironic, cause I've never been violent, until I'm with the homies.

 

[SephCast]

I fucking love cuddling.

 

[YoungHav]

Have they done a similar study on female and male demons who seek sex with mortals?

 

[Wilsongt]

as with a lot of other damaging social conventions, things tend to be funneled into extremes. So we're socialized to either want to fuck a bunch of people with zero emotions, or find one person to spend our entire life with monogamously.

There's a huge amount of variance in between those two extremes when it comes to sexuality and relationships, but those unfortunately tend to get ignored :/

That's more a product of a Christian-dominated society more than anything else. When people are taught growing up that you're suppose to be one-on-one and no others all your life, then it gets fairly easy to pigeon-hole expectations of people.

It's understandable why there are people who have multiple partners. I'm not a fan of it, but I understand it. Peer pressure with a lot of young guys probably is the cause of a little bit of it, also.

But, yeah, you're right. There is a lot of variability in between the extremes of sex crazy and monogamy with one person your whole life.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

If the women work out how much we like cuddling then we won't stand a chance when the war on men starts again.

 

[dinazimmerman]

My random thoughts:

Of course a good fraction of men want to be involved in a long-term monogamous relationship at some point in their lives at least. I believe the main reason is that many men want to be (non-absent) fathers. The desire probably evolved as a solution to the problem that human children require a high level of care and attention.

There are also many other reasons besides the "fatherly instinct" why men may want long-term monogamous relationships. The principal ones are probably: a) convenience (trolling for sex can be exhausting), b) trust (you know that what venereal diseases your long-term partner has), and c) intimacy (having a great friend you can confide in feels good man).

At the same time, most men obviously don't want to be in just one monogamous relationship for their whole lives. They prefer a series of monogamous relationships of various lengths. And most only concede to a long-term relationship if it means starting a family. The question then is why men (say they) prefer serial monogamy to polygamy.

Men could say they prefer serial monogamy to polygamy for a variety of reasons:
1. social norms against polygamy. i.e. polygamists are seen as creeps
2. women don't like to share, so they actively avoid men that advertise their interest in polygamous relationships
3. there are social norms against cheating/affairs/adultery, and lots of men feel genuinely guilty about cheating.
It's not that men wouldn't want to fuck a lot of women at the same time. It's that the costs to doing so, including guilt and the bad signal it sends, outweigh the benefits in many cases.

However, most men also have a strong desire to fuck every woman they can. Of course, they trade off this desire with the costs of doing so and other conflicting desires, but this strong desire still exists. The evolutionary explanation of why this is so still makes perfect sense conceptually, and there is strong empirical evidence of this, as well.

Evolutionary explanation:

A bit of empirical evidence:

Finally, while it is true that many men like long-term monogamous relationships, when choosing who to enter in such a relationship with, men obviously care more about their partner's sexual qualities than women:

Also, women care much more about the emotional aspects of these relationships than men, while men care more about the sexual aspects:

So if the stereotype "MEN ONLY CARE ABOUT SEX" means that men care more about the sexual aspects of monogamous relationships than women, then this is undoubtedly true. Also, if they aren't getting what they want out of a monogamous relationship (regular sex), then they are more likely to end the relationship or fuck other women on the side.

If the stereotype "MEN ONLY CARE ABOUT SEX" means men don't have any other conflicting desires (for the experience of raising a child, convenience, trust, intimacy, etc.), then that stereotype is just wrong.

 

[Trey]

Just sex is nice. Intimacy is nice. Sometimes I feel like fast food, sometimes I feel like steak and broccoli.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Men cannot be feminists! They can be "allies of feminists" but not actual feminists. They haven't gone through the hardships of being a woman and therefore cannot speak to those experiences and call themselves feminists.

Proud feminist here.

No, I mean Jezebel are feminists. And I say that in a negative light. You would have to be one to assume something as stupid as all guys just want sex.

I'm glad they are finally reaching this moment of enlightenment.

What the hell are you talking about? Feminists don't think that men want only sex--feminism is actively trying to tear down the sex-only mentality.

 

[YoungHav]

I want to go back in time and purge the Christian puritanical fuckwads responsible for laying the foundation for sexuality in America.

 

[GameplayWhore]

As a person who specifically fits into the narrow "not interested* in love" pigeonhole, I generally agree with this article. The grand majority of my male friends want to be in relationships. The girls do as well, though I've met more of them who seem actively interested in occasional flings than the guys. That might be, mind you, because they can do so, not necessarily because they want to do so more than men.

I know way too many virgins who are older than me, really nice guys who just want to have a regular girlfriend and be in love and stuff but who have fallen prey to a lot of the stereotypes, like the idea that girls aren't attracted to niceness or that peoples' interests (like video games) mark them as undateable. It really is a major bummer.



* yet. Maybe I'll fall in love some day, and I'm sure at that point I'd embrace it wholesale like Jack Nicholson in that movie where he was an old player guy. I'm not specifically averse to the idea.

 

[Jacob]

What the hell are you talking about? Feminists don't think that men want only sex--feminism is actively trying to tear down the sex-only mentality.

Some feminists do. (So do some non-feminists.) That is presumably the reason why Jezebel felt the need to publish this piece in the first place.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Some feminists do. (So do some non-feminists.) That is presumably the reason why Jezebel felt the need to publish this piece in the first place.

Some do, and without getting into the fragmentation of the feminist movement, a fairly widely-held belief is that feminism is dedicated to breaking down gender roles (and not just gender roles specific to women).

 

[Wilsongt]

I want to go back in time and purge the Christian puritanical fuckwads responsible for laying the foundation for sexuality in America.

Isn't the emergence of the prude attitude a fairly recent development in American sexual history? Especially given the overwhelming amount of censorship that has arisen in the last couple of decades?

 

[anotherVegan]

News flash: Women want sex, too.

 

[Lambtron]

I actually have heard of male feminist allies who don't identify as "feminist" because of that (and instead identify as allies). I know Michael Kimmel mentions it in the audience Q&A here, though he says he changed his mind about it because of the way the term has been demonized.

This sort of sums me up. I definitely consider myself an ally, but I do not self-identify as a feminist. I'm a bit uncomfortable with doing so, but that's all personal shit. I know dudes who do identify as feminists, and I think that's perfectly reasonable.

 

[prwxv3]

The only thing that is really starting to piss me off is the hysteria regarding men being around children.

 

[Wilsongt]

The only thing that is really starting to piss me off is the hysteria regarding men being around children.

Yeah... But that's another whole can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

 

[CountAntonius]

I've never been one for promiscuity or casual sex. I understand its appeal but its just not something that falls in line to what I want from a partner. Having said that most of my male friends will fuck just about anything and have.

 

[akira28]

I know there was a generation that was trained to look at men in society with a radically different view, but even then, it wasn't anti-male. That always seemed more like a joke, compared to how society actually was during first-wave feminism.

Anyway. Men can certainly be feminist, but that doesn't mean they're always good feminists, and the same probably could be said for women.

 

[Vermillion]

The only thing that is really starting to piss me off is the hysteria regarding men being around children.

I don't await that day in the future. I'm good with kids.

 

[Metrotab]

On the tangent of identifying as a feminist: 'feminist' sounds too pro-active to my liking. Like I'm actually out there doing something about it, or spend considerable amounts of time to the cause. I don't feel that describes me.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

good post

Just to throw in another thought, the evo psych conclusion based on many, many studies conducted with samples from many, many cultures is that men, on average, prefer a greater number of partners compared to women. It bums me out when this gets translated into the strawman claim that "men only care about sex." That's not what the data show and that's not what evolutionary psychologists are trying to claim. People who are threatened by the idea of biological differences between the sexes sometimes distort the claim to cast evolutionary psychology in a bad light.

 

[soul creator]

That's ironic, cause I've never been violent, until I'm with the homies.

what you did there, I see it

 

[User Name Here]

Fuck this. How will women know I'm special if I can't tell them that I'm not like the other guys?!

I know! They're ruining everything!

 

[Mumei]

My random thoughts:

[random thoughts]

So if the stereotype "MEN ONLY CARE ABOUT SEX" means that men care more about the sexual aspects of monogamous relationships than women, then this is undoubtedly true. Also, if they aren't getting what they want out of a monogamous relationship (regular sex), then they are more likely to end the relationship or fuck other women on the side.

If the stereotype "MEN ONLY CARE ABOUT SEX" means men don't have any other conflicting desires (for the experience of raising a child, convenience, trust, intimacy, etc.), then that stereotype is just wrong.

Where do those graphs come from?

And some of the evolutionary psychology arguments were covered in the post I linked to in the OP.

For instance, status vs looks:

Girls want status, guys want boobs
Men and women may express differences in priorities when talking about hypothetical dating partners. But a speed dating study found that the same isn't true when people are considering actual humans they might really date. In a paper recently published in Current Directions in Psychological Science, Michigan psychologist Terri Conley and co-authors write,

Contrary to conventional wisdom, when the object of one's potential affection shifted from ideal to actual, gender differences in preferred qualities of partners disappeared. Specifically, attractiveness and status were found to be equally important to men and women when considering actual dating partners (both in initial speed-dating encounters and a month after those encounters) across a variety of dependent measures (Eastwick & Finkel, 2008). Moreover, gender differences in preferences for status and attractiveness were absent in the judgments of current romantic partners as well (Eastwick, Finkel, & Eagly, in press).​

Or propensity to accept casual sex:

Guys want casual sex, but ladies just want looooove

In a now-famous study, men and women approached subjects and offered to have casual sex with them. No women agreed to the proposition, but 70% of men did. Plenty of people have argued that this means men are biologically hardwired to seek random play, but the truth may be more complicated. As it turns out, both men and women were more likely to accept a proposition if they thought the proposer would be good in bed — and women were much less likely to think dudes would be sexually skilled. This might have to do with that clitoral stimulation finding — if women don't expect to have orgasms with their hookups, they may be less likely to want to hook up in the first place. It's tempting to insult dudes here, but bad first-time sex could be a result of complicated gender norms: if women feel like men just naturally enjoy sex more, they may be less likely to ask for the things that get them off, until they're in a relationship and feel comfortable.

Also a relic of fucked-up gender norms: slut-shaming. Women who thought they might get slut-shamed were less likely to have accepted actual past casual sex offers, or to accept hypothetical ones in the present. And in fact, "when both proposer sexual capabilities and stigma associated with participation in casual sex are accounted for, the giant gender differences in acceptance evaporate completely."

Or selectivity:

Women are "picky," but men will fuck anyone
Conley et al point out that "assumptions about women's choosiness have been based on our culture's traditional gender dynamics" — especially, the expectation that men will approach women. One research team decided to turn the tables by asking women to approach men and a speed dating scenario. Here's what happened:

The mere act of physically approaching someone (i.e., simply rotating through potential partners and introducing oneself during speed-dating) caused individuals to evaluate potential partners more favorably (e.g., reporting greater romantic chemistry and increased likelihood of a romantic relationship developing). Moreover, when women approached men, women behaved more like men (becoming less choosy), and men behaved more like women (becoming more choosy). Thus, this research suggests that "choosiness" may be an artifact of gendered social norms concerning who approaches whom.​

Conley et al conclude their review thus:

Within psychology, perspectives that draw upon adaptively evolved mechanisms (Buss & Schmitt, 1993; Eagly & Wood, 1999) are typically utilized to explain gender differences in sexuality. That is, the behaviors we see today are presumed to be relics of our evolutionary past. The research reviewed suggests that these gender differences are in fact rooted in much more mundane causes: stigma against women for expressing sexual desires; women's socialization to attend to other's needs rather than their own; and, more broadly, a double standard that dictates (different sets of) appropriate sexual behaviors for men and women.​

As usual in these discussions, I am hesitant to ascribe to evolutionary imperatives things which can just as easily be ascribed to conditioning by gender roles (e.g. disprate treatment creates disparate results).

 

[Mission]

Check out a GAF female teacher, male victim(s), rape thread. Half of the posts are "Nice!" or "Where were these teachers when I was in school?". Plenty of people believe that men only want sex, or that if you dangle a vagina in front of a man he will be compelled to fuck it.

Did you read the article? It specifically described that men exhibit this behaviour in public but do it less so more privately.

Even in my prime years I once turned down drunk sex because I didn't want to cheat. Good thing too because as hot as she was in that moment, she turned out to be batshit crazy.

 

[out0v0rder]

i dunno.
pretty sure guys want everything
so do girls.
funny how that works.

 

[PhoenixDark]

It's amazing how universal the Casanova Complex meme is; you can hear it at church, in an explicit rap song on the radio, and from your own mother within the first decade of your life. That's certainly my experience, and I'm sure many guys are in the same boat.

One thing I noticed amongst some of my high school friends is the tendency to tell all this to women, in quite a serious tone, thus arguing they should never expect monogamy from their boyfriend; of course if a woman decides to cheat as well, she's labeled a hoe and excommunicated forever. Really nasty stuff.

 

[Devolution]

Even people I've met who are bachelors don't get sex nearly as often as is assumed. And it wasn't "I need sex with a bunch of different women" so much as "I'm not ready for a serious relationship." So this doesn't surprise me.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I've never been one for promiscuity or casual sex.

Yes. For the longest time I thought something was wrong with me. I had a crazy libido like other males 13-40 and a high sex drive, yet I was not interested in doing something with people I did not have chemistry with.

I looked at men besides me who was seemingly able to ignore the "cunt" entitled bitch attitude of these womens who were worshipped, and while probably not bad people, acted and talked stupid in such a crazy off-puting way.

So I thought that, hot women equals bitchy women, and it was my job to be with as hot as woman I could be, but not be close with her.




It's only been recently (In the last few years) that I've been able to really appreciate my sensitive side, and my personal preferences for having sex with someone who I am really comfortable with.

I think that in many sitcoms and commercials, the man is always portrayed as the idiot who says something wrong. He is always something iconic like a geek nerd, sports jock, lazy homer simpsions type dude, someone who is clueless in a Fry-From-Futurama sort of way, or something inbetween all of these.

 

[A.E Suggs]

Never been true for me anyways, competition in sports is my only love. That said all this means is just females want sex as much as males and means that people in the long run still just want sex.

As usual in these discussions, I am hesitant to ascribe to evolutionary imperatives things which can just as easily be ascribed to conditioning by gender roles (e.g. disprate treatment creates disparate results).

But doesn't everything come down to conditioning just about? Isn't that kinda how a society functions to keep it going?

 

[squidyj]

If you only value women for sex you'll never have anyone to clean your apartment

....IF they clean my apartment how will I know where my stuff is?

 

[Devolution]

Never been true for me anyways, competition in sports is my only love. That said all this means is just females want sex as much as males and means that people in the long run still just want sex.



But doesn't everything come down to conditioning just about? Isn't that kinda how a society functions to keep it going?

Since I hit 25 my uh sex drive has spiked. But at the same time I don't know if I'd really be out there fucking random dudes. I think there is a difference between wanting sex and the lengths someone will go to get it. With a partner, which is easy for many women to get the way things are set up, it's possible to get more regular sex. We're also coming onto stage in civilization where women do not have to pretend they hate it or it's "simply their duty." They can enjoy it just like their male counterparts and they can get all kinds of information on how to improve, masturbate, get in tune with their bodies. Hell just the other day in girlgaf we were talking about vibrator parties. There is still some open hostility against sexually open promiscuous women though.

Seems like the contrast to this, and any dudes can correct me if I'm wrong, was/is for some men that being virgin is the worst thing in the world. And in their insistence on not staying this way some get hookers, some get some shitty lay at a college party. In fact in Guy Land there was this idea that other men in college were getting so much sex and they had to compete with imaginary numbers and bad sex. It was a pretty depressing read.

 

[shadyspace]

In fact in Guy Land there was this idea that other men in college were getting so much sex and they had to compete with imaginary numbers and bad sex. It was a pretty depressing read.

Not disputing what you're saying here but any dude who still feels the need to compete with his buddies on the scoreboard after graduating high school has bigger problems.

 

[Az987]

If you only value women for sex you'll never have anyone to clean your apartment

I think you mean cook you food.

I usually clean the apartment.

 

[Devolution]

Not disputing what you're saying here but any dude who still feels the need to compete with his buddies on the scoreboard after graduating high school has bigger problems.

Oh indeed but it was pretty universal across campuses and lead to a lot of sexual assaults.

 

[shadyspace]

Oh indeed but it was pretty universal across campuses and lead to a lot of sexual assaults.

I guess I'll consider myself lucky in choosing the dudes I associate with in that case. The notion of a college aged buddy of mine giving me shit for not getting laid as often as him is absurd to me.

 

[A.E Suggs]

Since I hit 25 my uh sex drive has spiked. But at the same time I don't know if I'd really be out there fucking random dudes. I think there is a difference between wanting sex and the lengths someone will go to get it. With a partner, which is easy for many women to get the way things are set up, it's possible to get more regular sex. We're also coming onto stage in civilization where women do not have to pretend they hate it or it's "simply their duty." They can enjoy it just like their male counterparts and they can get all kinds of information on how to improve, masturbate, get in tune with their bodies. Hell just the other day in girlgaf we were talking about vibrator parties. There is still some open hostility against sexually open promiscuous women though.

Seems like the contrast to this, and any dudes can correct me if I'm wrong, was/is for some men that being virgin is the worst thing in the world. And in their insistence on not staying this way some get hookers, some get some shitty lay at a college party. In fact in Guy Land there was this idea that other men in college were getting so much sex and they had to compete with imaginary numbers and bad sex. It was a pretty depressing read.

Being a virgin was most def the worst thing in the world at my school. Man my highschool life was a mess especially after they found out I was bi man did things take a turn for the worst. What also didn't help the issue is that many young people at that time had rap/hiphop music as their inspiration and drive for sex.

 

[Sub_Level]

I definitely prefer a monagomous relationship and so does about half of my group of male friends. Although none of us would of course necessarily turn down nsa.

 

[CountAntonius]

Seems like the contrast to this, and any dudes can correct me if I'm wrong, was/is for some men that being virgin is the worst thing in the world. And in their insistence on not staying this way some get hookers, some get some shitty lay at a college party. In fact in Guy Land there was this idea that other men in college were getting so much sex and they had to compete with imaginary numbers and bad sex. It was a pretty depressing read.

Yeah this is true. You even see it on here thrown around as an insult quite a bit.I personally haven't met a guy who went to extreme lengths to lose their virginity because well it just isn't that hard to do if meaningless sex with anyone is all you really want. I'm sure there is probably some guys with terrible social issues that feel paralyzed around women that may go this route but I think not having sex really isn't the biggest issue that need to be fixed in a case like that. The talk should be less about getting laid and more about getting help.

 

[dinazimmerman]

Where do those graphs come from?

The graphs come from the lecture slides of a psychology course I took. I'll upload the pdf later if I have time. I have a huge problem set due tomorrow, and I might not get any sleep tonight. =(

As usual in these discussions, I am hesitant to ascribe to evolutionary imperatives things which can just as easily be ascribed to conditioning by gender roles (e.g. disprate treatment creates disparate results).

For me, it's the opposite. I am hesitant to explain things by social conditioning when it can be explained more elegantly and convincingly by evolutionary biology. Maybe I'll have time to write a more complete response later, but note that the conclusions drawn from the research cited in that Jezebel post have been... called into question by other psychologists. Read this article published in 2012 in Current Directions in Psychological Science: http://web.missouri.edu/~segerti/capstone/SexDiffSexuality.pdf. It's very readable. Anyway, this is an ongoing debate in psychology, and I find the "evopsych" arguments to be more compelling.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I want to go back in time and purge the Christian puritanical fuckwads responsible for laying the foundation for sexuality in America.

Yes, let's answer a bad idea with genocide. That will teach them.